Gen - ahhhhhhhhh what is it

[lettered]

I just switched the tags for my Avengers fic on Ao3 to the "character&character" format rather than the "character/character" format. No characters have sex, make out, or profess love for any of the other characters in these stories. Characters do feel lust and look at each other with longing.

I admit to some confusion, because people who have read Responsible Science, my Avengers series, have seemed to agree, when they brought it up, that the series is indeed gen. However, the consensus also seemed to be that my fic The Pure and Simple Truth was not gen. In that fic, no characters had sex, made out, or professed love, but Harry felt lust and looking at Draco with longing.

There are plenty of reasons even the same readers (and these aren't the same readers) may feel the one is slash and the other is gen. The Pure and Simple Truth was written for an H/D fest and was a remix of an H/D fic. There was mostly talking not a lot of action. The focus of the fic was Harry's relationship with Draco (well, actually it was supposed to be about forgiveness). The end suggested H/D would get together. Meanwhile there's no context for Responsible Science other than as Avengers fanfiction, and there's more action/plot than Pure and Simple. The focus of the fics is Bruce's relationships with Natasha, Steve, and Tony (well, actually it's supposed to be about ethics); maybe people are less likely to read sex/romance into the equation when you've got one person having rather intimate feelings about three people at once. There's not been a suggestion at the end of any fic in Responsible Science that anyone will end up together (except perhaps Pepper/Tony).

At times I feel rather disingenuous, claiming that Pure and Simple is gen, because I definitely had all the sexy Harry/Draco thoughts writing it. But I'm having just as intense sexy Bruce/Natasha, Bruce/Steve, and Bruce/Tony thoughts while writing Responsible Science. None of the attraction between any of the characters (in either Pure and Simple or Responsible Science) is mentioned explicitly. It's more just Character A noticing that Character B parts his hair to the side, or whatever. And none of the thoughts characters have about each other is explicitly sexual, except for Bruce and Natasha in A Fine Spur. (I wonder if people consider that one less gen than the others?)

Because so much fanfiction is written with the intent of hooking A up with B, I totally understand the necessity of slash/het/gen labels. And yet, as I find myself writing less and less fics with that intention in mind, the rationality of the labels seems to be disappearing. Should my intent in writing the fic play a part in the label? Should what readers could read into a story play a part in the label? A story in which no one could be shipped by the reader is a bad story, imo. In any good book/show/movie/game/whatever you consume, there's usually room for shipping, and thus a large contingent of fandom.

Speaking of which. Poll. Tag Harry Potter, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and the Avengers movie with pairings so you can put them on an archive.

Comments

[staranise]

The thing about Responsible Science is, Bruce seems (perhaps inadvertently) to anti-ship himself. The whole series is about him refusing to acknowledge those connections and putting a lid on his attraction.

[lettered]

True. I was thinking this was another difference between the Avengers stuff and the HP fic I mentioned. In the HP fic, Harry was perfectly open to having relationships with people.

[sophia_sol]

What an interesting question! It's one that's niggled at me a lot -- what DOES count as gen and what as a pairing. Different people clearly define their lines differently, and grey-area cases are hard to figure out! I tend to err on the side of reading things as gen unless it's really clearly shippy, so I've definitely been reading your Responsible Science as gen.

Authorial intent is -- well, I watch Vlogbrothers a lot, and John Green's opinion on authorial intent (that the author's reading shouldn't be privileged over the reading of anyone else) has kind of permeated my brain more than I realized. So I err on the side of saying that authorial intent doesn't matter, if the readers don't see the same thing in the story that the author does.

So different readers will see different things in the same story -- hence why, when you look up a fic on pinboard, you might find that different people have labelled it as gen, or with one ship, or with five ships. That doesn't mean that the fic should be labelled by the author with every single ship it's possible to read into the fic. I think what makes the most sense is to label the fic by the ships that the majority of readers are likely to see in the fic -- though if the author isn't very good at telling what others are likely to see in the fic, that doesn't work very well.

ANYWAYS. I went to go take your poll, and then immediately turned back around, because I have this tragic need to always answer questions with "IT'S COMPLICATED" instead of choosing from multiple choice answers.

Because "I would expect to see the tags" is something that can have more than one answer, because I have noticed multiple ways of tagging. Some people only tag for the "main" ship of the fic, the ship that the fic is largely about, whereas some tag for every single ship that makes even a minor back-ground appearance in the fic. And some choose a middle road. So I CAN'T choose answers to your poll questions, because I'm not actually sure which of these tagging methods is more common! And actually I think it likely that tagging practices would vary from archive to archive and between fandoms, at least to a certain extent, because people pick up on the social norms of the fandom and fandom location they hang out in the most.

...goodness that was MORE WORDS than I was intending to write? Whooops.

[lettered]

has kind of permeated my brain more than I realized

ha. I learned that The Author Is Dead when I was 16 and never looked back since. This is a slightly different issue, imo. I mean, the problem is, you're completely right--different readers will see things differently. And the reason the author is dead is because the author didn't make the text for the reader and if she did, that doesn't matter. The text is what it is and anyone can make anything out of it they choose. But tags are for the reader. And since they're for the reader, whatever the author intended shouldn't matter; the tags should be just what the reader wants them to be. But the author of course has no way to divine what readers will think, so should she just go with what she intended?

if the author isn't very good at telling what others are likely to see in the fic, that doesn't work very well.

Exactly. I think I sort of tend to be an outlier in terms of what I want in stories, so it's really hard for me to understand what other people want. Over on lj, in response to this post, someone mentioned a particular story as an example. This example story was labeled gen, was mostly about the relationship between two young men, and then ended with one of the young men deciding to pursue a relationship with another young woman. The commenter was using this story as an example of something a lot of people were upset by--and I totally get that they were upset, and that response is not invalid. But to me, that story was gen because it was not about who got together with whom; it was about family. I'd've probably labeled it gen and upset a whole lot of people!

I would expect to see the tags

You're right! This was really badly worded! What I should have put was "I would like to see the tags". I was trying to deal with what I feel is this expectation of doing tags "right." Everyone who asked about my tags on Ao3 was really really nice about it and not at all condemnatory or aggressive, but I still have this kind of "I did something wrong! What do you want from me?!?" response, like there's a right and wrong way to do tags. ...Maybe there is; I'll never know :o)

tagging practices would vary from archive to archive and between fandoms, at least to a certain extent, because people pick up on the social norms of the fandom and fandom location they hang out in the most.

What an interesting point. I'd never thought about it that way, but of course you're right!

[readertorider]

I think I do read less romance into the equation when there's more people involved, just because I can't see all the characters ending up together (3(+)somes being an exception). In The Pure and Simple Truth I feel the ending heavily implies that Draco and Harry are going outside to kiss and settle into a relationship, but in Responsible Science I feel like Bruce could eventually end up with any of his interests and have a Ron/Pansy type friendship with the others. The Bruce/Natasha, Bruce/Steve, Bruce/Tony, even Bruce/Pepper all sort of combine into a Schrodinger's pairing with Bruce in some sort of gen-limbo.

I think who the people are matter too--admiring a friend or relative is different than admiring a(n ex)mortal enemy, with people more likely to read sex into animosities than friendships.

But I'm also inclined to think cannon relationships are gen (i.e. the Avengers (if it were a fic) would be gen even with the wonderful Pepper/Tony scene because Pepper/Tony was established in the Iron Man movies) as long as they aren't the focus of the story, so you might want to take my opinions with a pinch of salt ;)

I think either the & or / work fine for Responsible Science, but I think the & makes more sense in your case because the fics aren't explicitly shippy and the attractions shouldn't squick anyone (as opposed to Sam/Dean incest or Loki/horse whateverness). I think A Fine Spur is less gen than the others just because the Natasha relationship is the only one. The thoughts being explicitly sexual doesn't matter so much, I don't think, because I feel like Bruce is more restrained with Tony or Steve since Tony is in a relationship and Steve may or may not have a blind spot, while Natasha owns/understands her sexuality?

I've had way too much fun reading the comments here and on lj!

[lettered]

all sort of combine into a Schrodinger's pairing with Bruce in some sort of gen-limbo.

This sentence just made me so happy ;o)

admiring a friend or relative is different than admiring a(n ex)mortal enemy

That's really interesting. Although, I think that depends on the reader as well, because I do think some people have a stronger tendency to ship enemies or people who have animosity than others. Most of my ships tend to be those in which the characters feel and instant connection and are drawn to each other, and then as they try to work through a relationship something comes up between them. Obviously, Harry/Draco is an exception (although I don't think Angel/Spike is necessarily an exception. I think one reason I like it so much is how Angelus and William were totally into each other and then fought. But my major BtVS pairing is always Buffy/Angel, which is obviously no exception to my stated preference).

I'm also inclined to think canon relationships are gen

I sort of think so too. I mean, no one's going around saying Pure and Simple Truth should be het, even though Ron/Hermione exists and actually plays a rather large part in the story.

I think A Fine Spur is less gen than the others just because the Natasha relationship is the only one

Welllll...Bruce's relationship with Steve is the only relationship in The Hollow Men. There are some other characters, but Bruce is fairly arm's-lengthy with them.

Bruce is more restrained with Tony or Steve

I do mean to write him that way, so I definitely figured Bruce/Natasha would come across more strongly than the other two.

Thanks so much for your thoughts!