I have also noticed that Buffyverse fic is more baroque/enfloriated (what a good word) than, say, Star Trek. It's . . . weird. The thing about Buffyverse was I knew that I could write something experimental and/or poetic and people would sit up and pay attention.
Heh, I guess Buffy is more baroque than Trek. Buffy's all blood and roses; it makes no bones about the fact that it is trying to be a *myth*. So many of the major characters (actually, all of them, really) already speak in a stylized way, that we're more willing to indulge stylization in fanwriters. We're used to it; there's less WTF.
I was unable to "break in" to HP fandom with, uh, something fancy, and this piece right here has garnered almost no reviews. It might be just that this and Silver Tongues weren't as good as the thing that got me noticed in Buffy fandom (Blood Types), but I notice looking around me that I don't see people DOING this type of stuff in Star Trek, or even HP.
Did you advertise this one anywhere? Fandom feels bigger to me than it used to. Do you find that? I think it's harder to break in just by writing something good. You have to spend substantial effort participating in the community. Look at lim's Harry/Draco novel. It's fantastic, and it got a piddly amount of attention compared with HP BNFs. She's an interesting test case, because she *is* a BNF elsewhere: she's a vidding superhero, and if she wrote, oh, a SGA epic, hordes would descend.
I also have to admit that I don't love Silver Tongues or this piece as much as either Blood Types or Down There in the Reeperbahn. Blood Types is rich like peat moss, but not actually very gimmicky. Reeperbahn is just craaazy, and wicked smart, and crazy fun to untangle and card through for double, triple, quadruple meanings. In everything you’ve written for Buffy, I feel like the language is perfectly suited to the story. The Old Ways, otoh, has a good concept, but I don't understand why you chose the narrative voice you did. Like I said, it pings several quite specific time-and-place buttons for me, and because I can't see clearly how they fit in this universe, they come across as a somewhat mystifying affectation. BUT most of my Trek knowledge I acquired via osmosis. So. Food for thought, grain of salt, yadda.
HP has some truly magnificent work, but none match the out-on-a-limb quality of say, Kita's work. Then again, imo nothing matches Kita's work. A few sort of like Lynne in HP, maybe, and yet the focus for those writers seems to be on plots and characters, and not on theme, like Lynne. That's not to say the plot- and character-driven work isn't amazing (or thematic); some of it really is. But the approach seems different. I'm probably not making any sense.
I can think of people in (both) Stargate(s) who rock theme. I can't think of anybody who privileges it over character study, though; they use themes to explore characters. And plots to explore characters. And pastiche to explore characters.
I think...one of the differences in approach might be Jverse fans' obsession with patterns in Joss's universe. Fractals and repetitions and parallels -- they're everywhere -- he's Tolkien-like in that way. So that's where writers like me and you and Kita often start, by noticing something like that and capitalizing on it. Stargate doesn't have that literary quality. Vidders such as lim wrestle it out of HP. I can't speak to Trek.
But I haven't seen writers like you or seraphcelene in Star Trek or HP, either.
Yeah? In terms of content or style?
Because people are approaching everything so used to reading up-close-and-personal third. The clues need to be different for that audience.
I keep coming back to a metaphor of a camera zoom—and keep failing at articulating a clear rule of writing to stick it in, possibly because every rule of writing as a zillion exceptions. Something about establishing shots? I'm thinking of Jane Austen novels, with their "Dear Reader" POVs, that invariably start with truisms or affectionate but cool-headed and distancing character descriptions, and all their associated movies that begin with panoramic views of the countryside. I don't really know where I'm going with this. And I'm not critiquing __ anymore, either, I'm just ruminating about POV in general. *chews cud*
I have developed a worksheet for us. Please fill out.
Hee!
1)Why is this happening to us? It's happening to *me* because I get really excited about things and start daydreaming about them for hours and weeks and months before knuckling down and figuring out that they don't actually have viable plots. 2)Has this ever happened to you before? Well, see above, but this is farther than I've ever gotten before. 2b) If so, what did you do? Gave up and wandered away to the next shiny non-viable. :/ 3) Do you know the overall arc of your story? I know the emotional arcs. I know the plot arc of one (of two, possibly three) set of characters. The others are lost in a great haze. 4) What will happen if we leave these slowly-crowding-us POVs/interfering character scenes out? Daniel will sulk, but that's about it. And hey, it's not like sulky!Daniel is OOC! 5) Is it possible to write the crowding POVs/interfering character, and then write them back out again, so we feel satisfied, but not crowded? Quite possibly. 6) Have you ever written epic gen before? I have never written chaptered anything before!! 7) What epic gen have we read? I'm pondering replacing your gen label with adventure or drama or some such, because it's worth noting that some relevant stories have romance, they're just not romance-centric. I also think it's useful here to divide gen into two rough categories:
the kind that follows one protagonist or POV on one specific quest with a clear goal. The whole book is, like Neal Stephenson says, "the wood behind the point of a spear." Detective stories are a good example of this.
the kind that follows multiple characters on different (though maybe related) errands in different places, and have a number of plotty episodes that may be thematically linked or advance a larger arc, but are more or less self-contained.
At the moment, I'm fangirling a few fannish authors who have written amazing examples of the former -- but I'm failing at imitating them. *My* story idea is not like a spear. It is like a sack of topsoil sprouting mushrooms. 8) What is your goal in writing said epic gen? Praise.
My answers . . . 3) Yes. Kirk and Spock become bff, Kirk becomes the man he is in TOS, and Spock at last finds peace in himself after the event of Reboot That does sound cool. What do you think needs to happen to get them there? 6) Yes. Angel got a puppy in it! I love that story so hard. 7) Hm. Well, I'm looking for a large cast, a series of adventures, without an overbearing plot. 8) I want to get from Reboot to TOS insofar as Kirk and Spock's characters go, at the same time keeping the changes of Reboot intact Maybe I have conflicting goals, since I'm interested specifically in developing the Kirk and Spock relationship, but also in developing everyone else's. Okay. So write that. Write episodic epic gen: a string of single-chapter MOTW stories, each of which give full and loving attention to one POV. K&S can sometimes be foregrounded and sometimes burble along in the background, and the K&S-centric "season arc" can surge to the fore toward the end. It would work. I've read such things in other fandoms.
It's alive! It's alive!
Heh, I guess Buffy is more baroque than Trek. Buffy's all blood and roses; it makes no bones about the fact that it is trying to be a *myth*. So many of the major characters (actually, all of them, really) already speak in a stylized way, that we're more willing to indulge stylization in fanwriters. We're used to it; there's less WTF.
I was unable to "break in" to HP fandom with, uh, something fancy, and this piece right here has garnered almost no reviews. It might be just that this and Silver Tongues weren't as good as the thing that got me noticed in Buffy fandom (Blood Types), but I notice looking around me that I don't see people DOING this type of stuff in Star Trek, or even HP.
Did you advertise this one anywhere? Fandom feels bigger to me than it used to. Do you find that? I think it's harder to break in just by writing something good. You have to spend substantial effort participating in the community. Look at lim's Harry/Draco novel. It's fantastic, and it got a piddly amount of attention compared with HP BNFs. She's an interesting test case, because she *is* a BNF elsewhere: she's a vidding superhero, and if she wrote, oh, a SGA epic, hordes would descend.
I also have to admit that I don't love Silver Tongues or this piece as much as either Blood Types or Down There in the Reeperbahn. Blood Types is rich like peat moss, but not actually very gimmicky. Reeperbahn is just craaazy, and wicked smart, and crazy fun to untangle and card through for double, triple, quadruple meanings. In everything you’ve written for Buffy, I feel like the language is perfectly suited to the story. The Old Ways, otoh, has a good concept, but I don't understand why you chose the narrative voice you did. Like I said, it pings several quite specific time-and-place buttons for me, and because I can't see clearly how they fit in this universe, they come across as a somewhat mystifying affectation. BUT most of my Trek knowledge I acquired via osmosis. So. Food for thought, grain of salt, yadda.
HP has some truly magnificent work, but none match the out-on-a-limb quality of say, Kita's work. Then again, imo nothing matches Kita's work. A few sort of like Lynne in HP, maybe, and yet the focus for those writers seems to be on plots and characters, and not on theme, like Lynne. That's not to say the plot- and character-driven work isn't amazing (or thematic); some of it really is. But the approach seems different. I'm probably not making any sense.
I can think of people in (both) Stargate(s) who rock theme. I can't think of anybody who privileges it over character study, though; they use themes to explore characters. And plots to explore characters. And pastiche to explore characters.
I think...one of the differences in approach might be Jverse fans' obsession with patterns in Joss's universe. Fractals and repetitions and parallels -- they're everywhere -- he's Tolkien-like in that way. So that's where writers like me and you and Kita often start, by noticing something like that and capitalizing on it. Stargate doesn't have that literary quality. Vidders such as lim wrestle it out of HP. I can't speak to Trek.
But I haven't seen writers like you or seraphcelene in Star Trek or HP, either.
Yeah? In terms of content or style?
Because people are approaching everything so used to reading up-close-and-personal third. The clues need to be different for that audience.
I keep coming back to a metaphor of a camera zoom—and keep failing at articulating a clear rule of writing to stick it in, possibly because every rule of writing as a zillion exceptions. Something about establishing shots? I'm thinking of Jane Austen novels, with their "Dear Reader" POVs, that invariably start with truisms or affectionate but cool-headed and distancing character descriptions, and all their associated movies that begin with panoramic views of the countryside. I don't really know where I'm going with this. And I'm not critiquing __ anymore, either, I'm just ruminating about POV in general. *chews cud*
I have developed a worksheet for us. Please fill out.
Hee!
1)Why is this happening to us?
It's happening to *me* because I get really excited about things and start daydreaming about them for hours and weeks and months before knuckling down and figuring out that they don't actually have viable plots.
2)Has this ever happened to you before?
Well, see above, but this is farther than I've ever gotten before.
2b) If so, what did you do?
Gave up and wandered away to the next shiny non-viable. :/
3) Do you know the overall arc of your story?
I know the emotional arcs. I know the plot arc of one (of two, possibly three) set of characters. The others are lost in a great haze.
4) What will happen if we leave these slowly-crowding-us POVs/interfering
character scenes out?
Daniel will sulk, but that's about it. And hey, it's not like sulky!Daniel is OOC!
5) Is it possible to write the crowding POVs/interfering character, and
then write them back out again, so we feel satisfied, but not crowded?
Quite possibly.
6) Have you ever written epic gen before?
I have never written chaptered anything before!!
7) What epic gen have we read?
I'm pondering replacing your gen label with adventure or drama or some such, because it's worth noting that some relevant stories have romance, they're just not romance-centric. I also think it's useful here to divide gen into two rough categories:
- the kind that follows one protagonist or POV on one specific quest with a clear goal. The whole book is, like Neal Stephenson says, "the wood behind the point of a spear." Detective stories are a good example of this.
- the kind that follows multiple characters on different (though maybe related) errands in different places, and have a number of plotty episodes that may be thematically linked or advance a larger arc, but are more or less self-contained.
At the moment, I'm fangirling a few fannish authors who have written amazing examples of the former -- but I'm failing at imitating them. *My* story idea is not like a spear. It is like a sack of topsoil sprouting mushrooms.8) What is your goal in writing said epic gen?
Praise.
My answers . . .
3) Yes. Kirk and Spock become bff, Kirk becomes the man he is in TOS, and Spock at last finds peace in himself after the event of Reboot
That does sound cool. What do you think needs to happen to get them there?
6) Yes. Angel got a puppy in it!
I love that story so hard.
7) Hm. Well, I'm looking for a large cast, a series of adventures, without an overbearing plot.
8) I want to get from Reboot to TOS insofar as Kirk and Spock's characters go, at the same time keeping the changes of Reboot intact Maybe I have conflicting goals, since I'm interested specifically in developing the Kirk and Spock relationship, but also in developing everyone else's.
Okay. So write that. Write episodic epic gen: a string of single-chapter MOTW stories, each of which give full and loving attention to one POV. K&S can sometimes be foregrounded and sometimes burble along in the background, and the K&S-centric "season arc" can surge to the fore toward the end. It would work. I've read such things in other fandoms.