There are lots of ways to modify memories, both theoretically and within the series, with varying degrees of power and complexity. As you said, those directly involved with Dawn eventually figured out that all was not as it seemed, because the monks didn't erase the old memories, they just added new ones and hoped that the old ones would stay hidden, like flipping over a couch cushion and going "See? There's no stain there." My main point when I made the "impossible to beat" comment (which was more than a bit hyperbolic) was that if W&H could make an entire life's worth of memories, with friends, family, and an academic record in keeping with not-screwed-up-Connor's personality, as well as completely erase (or at least remove, which may well be harder) another life's worth from the minds of various others (and making new memories to replace the missing ones) - many of whom are fairly sensitive to magical activity - while they're conscious, without them noticing, then what's to stop them from, say, teleporting Angel to New York and replacing everything from his first encounter with Whistler onward with variations on the theme of homeless and rat-eating? Or something else similarly devious (with all the requisite changes to the memories of acquaintances). Assuming you can make any sense of my longest run-on sentence yet. *ahem* Carrying on.
It was meant more as an illustrative comment, not a statement of fact (and I realize it wasn't very clear; one disadvantage of an electronic setting is that it takes a lot longer to hash out precise meaning), to point out that sure, if the SP could just say "Okay, we're tired of this Angel guy, let's have him never be born/turned/souled/whatever," then of course they'd be unbeatable (and as I write this out I realize exactly how lame my "illustrative comment" was). But it's not that simple, especially if the Senior Partners don't want to change the general makeup of their world. We've seen what can happen when someone screws around with reality. I've never been able to figure out why they chose to do so when they did (but same goes for the memory-altering, too); I assume it's because of power limitations, whether due to scope or circumstance or maybe Cyvus Vail was the only one who knew how and the SP wouldn't pay enough before.
Although I reiterate my statement of Connor-was-dead, with the addition of doubting that Angel would consent to a Raising, your point about Connor's superpowers is definitely the strongest argument for just-memories. But I think I've found away around it, although I haven't quite figured out how to articulate it. Same goes for Cordelia remembering the old version, although that explanation is a little closer to expressible. If you want to know, I'll try to explain, but it probably won't make sense :).
I'm not saying that my version of the deal isn't infallible. There are at least as many holes in it as there are in the memory version, probably more. I'm just rather attached to it and can't see why it shouldn't be the case. It's a Dream of a Thousand Cats thing.
As a side note, I love conversations like this. Although they can be a little frustrating, they also remind me exactly what it is I love most about fiction: there is no true interpretation, it's all up to the one reading or watching, and until the writer weighs in with new info, people can bicker about just about everything within the work til kingdom come, and never be proven wrong. It's cool, not having to worry about being wrong, but knowing you're no more right than anybody else.::warm fuzzies:: That said, if Joss ever says that Vail changed reality, I will jump up and down shouting "See? See? I told you so!"
no subject
There are lots of ways to modify memories, both theoretically and within the series, with varying degrees of power and complexity. As you said, those directly involved with Dawn eventually figured out that all was not as it seemed, because the monks didn't erase the old memories, they just added new ones and hoped that the old ones would stay hidden, like flipping over a couch cushion and going "See? There's no stain there." My main point when I made the "impossible to beat" comment (which was more than a bit hyperbolic) was that if W&H could make an entire life's worth of memories, with friends, family, and an academic record in keeping with not-screwed-up-Connor's personality, as well as completely erase (or at least remove, which may well be harder) another life's worth from the minds of various others (and making new memories to replace the missing ones) - many of whom are fairly sensitive to magical activity - while they're conscious, without them noticing, then what's to stop them from, say, teleporting Angel to New York and replacing everything from his first encounter with Whistler onward with variations on the theme of homeless and rat-eating? Or something else similarly devious (with all the requisite changes to the memories of acquaintances). Assuming you can make any sense of my longest run-on sentence yet. *ahem* Carrying on.
It was meant more as an illustrative comment, not a statement of fact (and I realize it wasn't very clear; one disadvantage of an electronic setting is that it takes a lot longer to hash out precise meaning), to point out that sure, if the SP could just say "Okay, we're tired of this Angel guy, let's have him never be born/turned/souled/whatever," then of course they'd be unbeatable (and as I write this out I realize exactly how lame my "illustrative comment" was). But it's not that simple, especially if the Senior Partners don't want to change the general makeup of their world. We've seen what can happen when someone screws around with reality. I've never been able to figure out why they chose to do so when they did (but same goes for the memory-altering, too); I assume it's because of power limitations, whether due to scope or circumstance or maybe Cyvus Vail was the only one who knew how and the SP wouldn't pay enough before.
Although I reiterate my statement of Connor-was-dead, with the addition of doubting that Angel would consent to a Raising, your point about Connor's superpowers is definitely the strongest argument for just-memories. But I think I've found away around it, although I haven't quite figured out how to articulate it. Same goes for Cordelia remembering the old version, although that explanation is a little closer to expressible. If you want to know, I'll try to explain, but it probably won't make sense :).
I'm not saying that my version of the deal isn't infallible. There are at least as many holes in it as there are in the memory version, probably more. I'm just rather attached to it and can't see why it shouldn't be the case. It's a Dream of a Thousand Cats thing.
As a side note, I love conversations like this. Although they can be a little frustrating, they also remind me exactly what it is I love most about fiction: there is no true interpretation, it's all up to the one reading or watching, and until the writer weighs in with new info, people can bicker about just about everything within the work til kingdom come, and never be proven wrong. It's cool, not having to worry about being wrong, but knowing you're no more right than anybody else.::warm fuzzies:: That said, if Joss ever says that Vail changed reality, I will jump up and down shouting "See? See? I told you so!"