Well, like I said, I'm not sure I agree with a lot of things here either! A lot of it is quite a bit of a different way of looking at Angel than I've previously held before.
I don't disagree with your disagreements (how's that for a round about way of stating things), but I'm going to hit your points because I want to clarify the viewpoint I was trying to get across.
What Liam wanted more than anything was to piss his father off, and he did it spectacularly well. In that sense, he was never a failure.
There's that line:
"A more dutiful son you couldn’t have asked for. My whole life you told me in word, in glance, what it is you required of me, and I’ve lived down to your every expectations, now haven’t I?"
I assumed that meant his father had always told him he was a failure, and so Liam did his damnedest to become one--exactly as you say. But I guess I have trouble wrapping my head that being his true ambition--there's more bitterness there than glee. If he really had no goal other than to upset his father, why is Liam so upset in that scene? Why would he care, other than to mock and gloat? His attitude here seems more like someone who did have his own hopes and dreams, and felt like he was crushed down by the weight of his father's disapproval. In retribution, he set about making himself into what his father taught of him, but only because he was too weak and yes, self-pitying to realize that his father holds no real power over him any more.
But yeah, I see what you mean, and there's really no way to get a clear picture of Liam either way.
I don't think he wanders for a hundred years because he thinks he's a failure. I think he does it out of a fear of failure--failure to control himself.
Not so sure I see the difference, actually. If he isolates himself because he's afraid he might give into his demonic urges, then he's accepting that he's weak enough to possibly give into them, and in doing so he's accepting his own failure.
It's only when he starts keeping company with Buffy that he realizes he may actually be *able* to do good,
Exactly. I mean, even if he's staying away to protect others, that means he's staying away because he thinks he's a failure. He thinks he's too much of a loser to do any better. And it's not until Buffy comes along he realizes he can be more than that.
because she'd stake him the minute he bit someone.
Although I'd really have to disagree with this. She proves that even when he stumbles and falls she won't take him out, and he still spends all of S3 hanging around her.
no subject
I don't disagree with your disagreements (how's that for a round about way of stating things), but I'm going to hit your points because I want to clarify the viewpoint I was trying to get across.
What Liam wanted more than anything was to piss his father off, and he did it spectacularly well. In that sense, he was never a failure.
There's that line:
"A more dutiful son you couldn’t have asked for. My whole life you told me in word, in glance, what it is you required of me, and I’ve lived down to your every expectations, now haven’t I?"
I assumed that meant his father had always told him he was a failure, and so Liam did his damnedest to become one--exactly as you say. But I guess I have trouble wrapping my head that being his true ambition--there's more bitterness there than glee. If he really had no goal other than to upset his father, why is Liam so upset in that scene? Why would he care, other than to mock and gloat? His attitude here seems more like someone who did have his own hopes and dreams, and felt like he was crushed down by the weight of his father's disapproval. In retribution, he set about making himself into what his father taught of him, but only because he was too weak and yes, self-pitying to realize that his father holds no real power over him any more.
But yeah, I see what you mean, and there's really no way to get a clear picture of Liam either way.
I don't think he wanders for a hundred years because he thinks he's a failure. I think he does it out of a fear of failure--failure to control himself.
Not so sure I see the difference, actually. If he isolates himself because he's afraid he might give into his demonic urges, then he's accepting that he's weak enough to possibly give into them, and in doing so he's accepting his own failure.
It's only when he starts keeping company with Buffy that he realizes he may actually be *able* to do good,
Exactly. I mean, even if he's staying away to protect others, that means he's staying away because he thinks he's a failure. He thinks he's too much of a loser to do any better. And it's not until Buffy comes along he realizes he can be more than that.
because she'd stake him the minute he bit someone.
Although I'd really have to disagree with this. She proves that even when he stumbles and falls she won't take him out, and he still spends all of S3 hanging around her.