this is the first time that i've managed to read meta this lengthy without barfing and clicking away as fast as i could. i usually disagree wholeheartedly with the thinky posts people post about my fandom, but this?
I know what you mean. I've read some very well written stuff that I just plain disagree with, and some other stuff that feels like it should make sense but actually doesn't. But I have read a couple kick ass pieces of long meta, so I'm glad this was tolerable to you!
he needs that constant reassurance thing. he's such a guy! guys are ALL like that. that's one of the reasons i love angel so much - because he's so human that way.
I know! It startled me, when I thought about it that way, because Angel is so mythic and big and heroic...but in the end he does want hand holding and pats on the back just like everyone else.
so he rushes headfirst into battle, and if he dies a hero's death then maybe he'll get the credit he's due.
This is definitely one of the point that I wanted to get into when I started talking about AtS--and then I decided that was a whole 'nother ballpark and cut this particular meta short. Why does he rush to sacrifice himself so often, when he knows he can't ever be human, and knows he can't win? The ostensible reason is what you say--because there's nothing else to do, nothing else for him--but wouldn't it be better for the world if he stayed alive so he could fight? Is he in fact trying to go for some kind of humanity or victory, reward or credit after all?
i wonder if it's a champion thing. all champions want to die? or maybe the fact of being a champion means you can't have a lot of ties to the world, so you don't have that much going for you anyway, so you don't mind the thought of death.
I think it's a Joss Whedon thing. It seems pretty obvious to me that Whedon thinks the Ultimate Good is self-sacrifice: Buffy, Angel, Spike, Doyle. Even Mal's "go down with the ship" philosophy in Firefly is in the same vein.
angel doesn't have the kind of friends that buffy has. when he gets close to someone, the person either dies (doyle, cordy, fred) or betrays him (wesley, jasmine), and since he doesn't have those ties, he has no reason to come back after a battle.
Huh. That's an interesting idea. I would add that when Angel does have a tie that doesn't die or betray him, he severs it himself: Buffy, then Connor. And several people make a great case for Connor as Angel's humanity, as in Angel fights in the end because he knows he can never be human or have a good life, but he believes his son can. So in that sense, Angel has everything to lose if he doesn't fight; he fights so his legacy can live on. I'm still not sure that explains/justifies the sacrifice in NFA. Again, it seems like Angel could make the world a better place if he stayed alive to keep fighting; seems like the war he was waging in NFA was as likely to bring about apocalypse as make the world better.
this comment was longer than i meant for it to be. but i really enjoyed your meta! and i wanted to meta back at you. :D
I love long comments! So glad this meant something to you, and I enjoyed your thoughts as well. It's such an interesting discussion to me.
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I know what you mean. I've read some very well written stuff that I just plain disagree with, and some other stuff that feels like it should make sense but actually doesn't. But I have read a couple kick ass pieces of long meta, so I'm glad this was tolerable to you!
he needs that constant reassurance thing. he's such a guy! guys are ALL like that. that's one of the reasons i love angel so much - because he's so human that way.
I know! It startled me, when I thought about it that way, because Angel is so mythic and big and heroic...but in the end he does want hand holding and pats on the back just like everyone else.
so he rushes headfirst into battle, and if he dies a hero's death then maybe he'll get the credit he's due.
This is definitely one of the point that I wanted to get into when I started talking about AtS--and then I decided that was a whole 'nother ballpark and cut this particular meta short. Why does he rush to sacrifice himself so often, when he knows he can't ever be human, and knows he can't win? The ostensible reason is what you say--because there's nothing else to do, nothing else for him--but wouldn't it be better for the world if he stayed alive so he could fight? Is he in fact trying to go for some kind of humanity or victory, reward or credit after all?
i wonder if it's a champion thing. all champions want to die? or maybe the fact of being a champion means you can't have a lot of ties to the world, so you don't have that much going for you anyway, so you don't mind the thought of death.
I think it's a Joss Whedon thing. It seems pretty obvious to me that Whedon thinks the Ultimate Good is self-sacrifice: Buffy, Angel, Spike, Doyle. Even Mal's "go down with the ship" philosophy in Firefly is in the same vein.
angel doesn't have the kind of friends that buffy has. when he gets close to someone, the person either dies (doyle, cordy, fred) or betrays him (wesley, jasmine), and since he doesn't have those ties, he has no reason to come back after a battle.
Huh. That's an interesting idea. I would add that when Angel does have a tie that doesn't die or betray him, he severs it himself: Buffy, then Connor. And several people make a great case for Connor as Angel's humanity, as in Angel fights in the end because he knows he can never be human or have a good life, but he believes his son can. So in that sense, Angel has everything to lose if he doesn't fight; he fights so his legacy can live on. I'm still not sure that explains/justifies the sacrifice in NFA. Again, it seems like Angel could make the world a better place if he stayed alive to keep fighting; seems like the war he was waging in NFA was as likely to bring about apocalypse as make the world better.
this comment was longer than i meant for it to be. but i really enjoyed your meta! and i wanted to meta back at you. :D
I love long comments! So glad this meant something to you, and I enjoyed your thoughts as well. It's such an interesting discussion to me.