race-bending and the Marvel movie universe

[lettered]

I'm currently writing an Avengers series set in the Marvel movie-verse called Responsible Science, and I'm posting the fifth story, which is called Let's Stop The Time Warp (Again). In this story, I've included several Marvel characters whom we haven't seen in the Marvel movies. Since actors haven't been cast for these roles, I feel like some liberties can be taken with canon--yes, they're in the comics, but it's not like Mark Ruffalo looks exactly like comics!Bruce Banner; Gwenyth Paltrow doesn't look exactly like comics!Pepper, and so on. These characters don't even necessarily have the same backgrounds they do in canon. I thought since the Marvel movie-verse is an AU anyway, it'd be acceptable to race-bend some of the parts.

I'm kind of upset with some aspects of the current reboot trend, since it allows creators/producers/Powers That Be a built-in "excuse" to cast lots of white males, since that's what a lot of older western canons feature. I'm not going to go into a long diatribe about it; I wrote an essay here. I will say that I think it's a damn shame that so many aspects of a canon can be updated or changed--time periods, plots, characterizations--but as soon as you suggest changing something like gender or race or sexual orientation, you get a lot of people saying, "But the original isn't like that!" A lot of these originals were produced by white males in conservative eras. I'd like to think that we've come along way since the forties, even since the eighties; I'd like to see those changes reflected in my media.

Regarding Marvel specifically, I actually understand why Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, and Black Widow are white and have the gender that they do. However, in my opinion, there is absolutely no canonical reason--thematic, characterization-wise, etc--why Bruce Banner and Hawkeye have to be white. There's certainly not a reason Janet Van Dyne and Hank Pym have to be white. Imo there's not really any reason Hawkeye and Hank have to be male, although that also adds changes of sexual orientation (which should be fine) if you want to maintain their canon relationships.

The proportion of males to females in Marvel movie-verse canon certainly isn't realistic. The proportion of white to non-white may accurately reflect certain parts of America, but it does not reflect the part of America in which I grew up. It frustrates me that so few movies and television shows reflect my personal experience, or the personal experiences of my childhood friends, or the personal experiences of people I know now.

Despite these qualms, I do like aspects of Marvel movie-verse canon. I'd really like to write fanfic in that universe. Thus I'm left in the really awkward position of making a bunch of minor characters female and non-white, rather than doing anything different with characters the movies have already cast. I don't really plan to write a whole bunch about Indonesian-American!Janet and Mexican-American!Pym. They're characters I may write more about in the future, but I don't really have specific plans for them. I've thought a lot about who they are, about how the races I've imagined them as might change canon characterizations or affect how people treat them, but it won't really be evident in this story, and may never come up again.

So anyway, that's why I did what I did in the story I am currently writing. I wanted to do a post about it in case anyone wanted to discuss it. I'm interested in people's thoughts about it. I've written gender-bent things before, but it was usually about genderbending, because I wanted to have those discussions. I want to have disucssions about the race of casting in the Marvel movie-universe, but this fic isn't about that. It's supposed to be about this crazy time loop. Some of the characters involved just happen to not be white.

Also, I didn't cast specific actors as these two characters, because I just don't know a lot of current actors. I've been trying to cast a gender-bent Avengers team in my head for ages, and I just keep turning to the like, eight new-release movies I've seen in the past three years, or the like five tv shows I've seen that've been made in the past ten years. And they're still mostly full of guys and white people. Also, note that they cast men in their forties for Banner and Stark; go try and search for women actors in their forties, and there are just not as many as there are guy actors in their forties. I find this interesting and sad.

Anyway, if anyone has casting ideas for casting a Janet and Hank of a different race, I'd be so interested. Or race-bent casting choices for any of the Avengers, really, though my heart will always belong to Alexander Siddig for a race-bent Bruce Banner. Oh, Siddig, you just look so world-weary.

Comments

[melannen]

It's depressing that happens in Avengers especially, since Marvel editorial itself has racebent characters. (Nick Fury of course being the most successful, but Jan van Dyne will always be Asian-American in my headcanon, because I met her first in Ultimates, and that version of her stuck, especially since her appearance in most other versions isn't incompatible with her being of East Asian descent.) (616-verse even retconned that the first Captain America was Black! Can fandom not do at least as well as canon...?)

I feel like Bruce Banner does need to be white, like Tony, unless you're willing to rework his central metaphor (which, don't get me wrong, I would love to see done - I still want that epic where Yinsen is the Hulk) - but "Angry Black Man" still has different story-resonances than "Angry White Man", and "Monster goes rampaging around the world thoughtlessly destroying things" also kind of means something different if not linked to Whiteness. ...of course, the same things could be said about Nick Fury, and that racebend really worked, so maybe I'm just clinging too hard to my headcanon.

[lettered]

I didn't know Janet was Asian-American in Ultimates. I went with Indonesian because I thought it went with the name. Since she's an heiress it could have some interesting reflections on colonialism, etc. Which, in my head, Janet doesn't really think that much about, but it's influenced what her family is, and how they got to where they are.

"Angry Black Man"

I have thought a lot about this, but I still think it could be done. And African Americans in comics are under-represented, but from what I understand, not nearly as under-represented as Asian Americans and Hispanic Americans and Middle Eastern Americans. Each of these ethnicities come with their own sets of stereotypes that would make the Hulk problematic, but I think it could be done. For me, the central metaphor of Iron Man is societal, but the central metaphor for the Hulk is individual. Of course there are societal implications; there always are. Although now that I think about it--of the four main Avengers featured in the latest film, the one who's heroism is the most questionable is the Hulk, so yeah, there are problems making the Paragons Of Virtue white (it's a stretch to call Tony a paragon of virtue, but he's not gonna break down and kill everyone), and the one who has to constantly struggle with himself non-white--but you could do interesting things with that, too. You could turn it around. Like you say, they did it with Fury.

[melannen]

Yep! I don't think they ever specified much about her background, but she's canonically Asian-American, and (usually, anyway) drawn to make that clear; I think she's meant to have been adopted from overseas, but I'm not sure if it was ever made unambiguously clear (I haven't actually read much Ultimates? But Jan was, as always, fabulous in it.) Indonesian Jan is also fab, though!

(also: Maria Hill is white in 616, brown-skinned in EMH; Sitwell is white and British in 616, cast Mexican-American in movieverse - Marvel's actually been reasonably good (as far as major media properties go...) with shoehorning in some diversity in the corners of the 'verse.)

...and I guess I've trained myself to always look wider than the individual when I'm looking at the big hero/monster archetypes, and Movieverse!Bruce especially to me is about privilege - he has all this power over people, this ability to instill fear just by being who he is, and that power is as destructive as it can be useful, and he can't get rid of it no matter how much he wants to, even though a lot of people would kill to have his advantages, so he's stuck trying to figure out how to do as little damage just by living as he can, even though that's pretty futile and kind of counterproductive... but that doesn't have to mean White.

(interestingly, it was your Bruce in Responsible Science that got me started at thinking of mine in that specific way!)

Anyway, though, yeah, it would be totally possible to do a Bruce who wasn't white! But I don't think he's one of the characters you can racebend in the background without changing the meaning of his story in fundamental ways. (And actually I'd really like to see a Tony who isn't white but still very Tony, too - I think that would be at least as doable as Bruce, and very interesting.)

(And there's no particular reason why Thor has to look like a white guy - honestly, the only physical characteristic that's consistent in the myths is the red hair, and they got rid of that without blinking! Why does an extradimensional alien have to match Caucasian best of all Earth races? And clearly the Marvel PTB agree on principle, since they racebent Heimdall and Hogun...)

[lettered]

Maria Hill is white in 616, brown-skinned in EMH

Yeah, I love EMH. She reads to me as Hispanic in that. I found it pretty upsetting she's white in the movie, but then I thought about how that makes both the main S.H.I.E.L.D. figures minorities--which would be awesome, obviously, but it might also look like 'let's make the non-essentials diverse!' Though that imo is far better than nothing, and it's not like Maria's non-essential to canon.

Of course, they could've made Coulson any damn thing they chose. Ugh.

it was your Bruce in Responsible Science that got me started at thinking of mine in that specific way

Yes, I very much wanted to deal with issues of white privilege in the series, and I specifically liked the idea of paralleling that with Bruce. It's a way to talk about white guilt also that at least for me, is helpful. However, while there are all these broader implications for the archetype, you don't have to deal with those; you can deal with the personal ones instead, and use other societal implications for the character.

And actually I'd really like to see a Tony who isn't white but still very Tony, too - I think that would be at least as doable as Bruce, and very interesting.

I think you could easily racebend everyone, I just see why they didn't with Thor and Cap and Tony. But the reason I say that about Tony is because Tony is more interesting to me a social metaphor than a personal one, whereas Bruce resonates very deeply with me personally. Since they did cast him as white, I can deal with the broader implications as well, but it's not the thing that resonates the most with me in my interpretation of him. But while I love Tony personally, it's his place in society that really makes me all thinky. This is of course due to my own personal relationships with the characters, and not necessarily what is most important about them as archetypes overall.

there's no particular reason why Thor has to look like a white guy

Well, the particular reason is that they did come to Earth in medieval times, and they're what Norse myth is based off of, and I feel like Norse myths probably carries the assumption of a lot of ancient religions--that the gods looked as they do. Now, this isn't necessarily the best or most interesting reading of the text--you could deal with the idea that the Norse themselves white-washed their own gods, or that they became white-washed over time, or since this isn't a real world anyway, you could just posit that in that world, Norse legends were always much more diverse.

But yeah, since some of the supporting roles in Thor were characters of color, I don't see why they wouldn't just suck it up and make Thor a character of color. Incidentally, I thought of Idris Elba as my first choice for racebent!Thor, and only afterwards did I remember Elba was actually in the movie (it was just such a big costume and a lot of makeup or whatever. It makes me sad because I think Elba's an amazing actor, while Hemsworth I can kinda take or leave.)

[eleanorjane]

(Hi, random commenter here, coming from the link on your most recent Let's Stop The Time Warp chapter - a story I am loving very much!)

It makes me sad because I think Elba's an amazing actor, while Hemsworth I can kinda take or leave.

I totally agree Elba is amazing - I first saw him in the British miniseries Ultraviolet, which is about vampires without being about vampires and is awesome - but I do think he might be a bit too old to carry off the "Thor as a callow thoughtless frat bro" part of Thor's (movieverse) origin story.

[droolfangrrl]

I concur. And things will change. We just have to be water wearing down the rock

Also, just got to chapter six. I'll be hiding under the covers for a bit.

[crossedwires]

Here from...I forget where, sorry.

The one character in the Marvel movies that I think was a complete missed opportunity to cast anyone other than a white male is COULSON. Even if he's not one of the big name superheroes. Nothing against the actor, but he just adds to the white maleness of the franchise.

This is a racebent Tony Stark I would love to see on screen/more stories of. Instead of whatever orientalist yellow peril thing they have going on in IM3. (And my kingdom for a Jessica Jones movie starring Sandra Oh.)

While changing Bruce to POC might tread on some problematic tropes, I don't think keeping him a white man (or retelling stories of white men, in general) is necessarily the better option. And if there is more than one poc of the same race in the movie, then at least the burden of representation is not all on that one character. Which is also another way to subvert stereotypes; a variety of characterization is needed, too.

I think Marvel could also CHOOSE to make movies starring white women and POC -- characters in the comics that they've already created -- instead of making trilogies of white dudes (and their token minority character).

Siddig

[(Anonymous)]

There is one obvious exception I can thing of in the marvel-movie-verse: Daredevil's villain, Kingpin. In the comics he's white, which Michael Clarke Duncan was definitely not. However, I agree with your basic point.

Also you have now successfully put the idea of Siddig as Banner in my head. That is sooo right! sigh.

Thanks.

Lilybet