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Things About B/A That Annoy Me
Hopefully after that post filled with hearts and love and flowers, everyone (who gives a damn) can tell I love B/A. Much thanks for all that lovely discussion, and reccing to bring other people into discuss. It was lots o' fun, and I think even some people who didn't love B/A could see that there are many wonderful excellent things about it, things that make our knees go squishy, things that make us think it's something that is real and true in both characters.
That said, there're things that just drives me personally crazy about it, and not in a good way.
1. I feel like neither DB nor the writers had a very good handle on Angel until "Angel", BtVS 1x07, and even then, he still seemed shakey to me until S3.
2. In "Teacher's Pet", 1x04, I dislike the "You're cold...I mean you look cold" dialogue. I love that he gives her his coat, but that's just clunky--bad--writing.
3. I don't like the line "When you kiss me, I want to die" in "Reptile Boy", 2x05. It makes for some very interesting things to play with in fic (see orgasm face during biting scene in "Graduation", 3x22 and gradual arc toward embracing death), but I don't get what Buffy means. And if I do get it, I don't understand why Buffy wants him and why Angel doesn't worry about it more.
4. I don't like the way DB says "Buffy." Ever. Someone once mentioned that it's difficult to inflect a goofy name like "Buffy" with the meaning he tries to give it, but I think JM does just fine. (However I love to death the way SMG says "Angel," especially in "Prophecy Girl," 1x12. Buffy never says anyone else's name like that again except when it's Angel--and she still says it the same way, even in S7.)
5. I've said this before, but I think the Claddagh rings in "Surprise", 2x13 are cheesy. I like them, but they're really, really cheesy.
6. I don't find the scene in "Surprise" just before they have sex very sexy (except for once, when my mom said--when Angel was looking at the cut on her back: "Oh come on, you know you want to lick it!"). I don't like the way SMG acts it. She does a good job, but something about it seems overly . . .melodramatic to me.
7. I dislike "I Only Have Eyes For You", 2x19. Part of it is my dislike of B/Aus, which I'll go into elsewhere. Part of it is I felt like it wanted to show us there's some bit of the soul somewhere inside Angelus, and there's really not (the scene with him scrubbing himself after his encounter does much to dispel that. I do love that scene, though not the least because DB has his shirt off.) Part of it is the plot is corny--the idea that the spell is "calling" Buffy and Angel. Part of it is I don't like DB's acting when he has to be possessed by a woman. There's a commentary in which Whedon says that bit was when he knew DB was talented enough to carry his own show, but I personally despise the way that scene is delivered.
8. The Tai Chi? Also cheesy. I love it, but very very cheesy.
9. I'm not the biggest fan of the magical snow in "Amends" 3x10 I feel like I get it. It's like everyone is realizing there are things bigger and more powerful and beautiful than themselves, just like they are confronted with bigger, more powerful and ugly things ever single day. Also, it's snowed all of three times in my life in Houston, and the last time was on Christmas Eve--I feel like I know how magical that can be.
But--maybe because I tend to have a one-track mind, a dog with a bone--it wouldn't be enough for me to feel like my issues with my boyfriend were resolved. It wouldn't be enough for me to understand that snow has suddenly curbed his instinct toward suicide. B/A had so, so many issues during S3, and they never talked about them. In other places, I like that; that's how they are--but in this scene where the bottling finally explodes and everything comes tumbling out, I'm very frustrated that so little actually gets said all because of the magical snow.
10. I dislike how S3 feels so on-again off-again. It seems to make sense when you're watching, but as much as I love B/A and as much as S3 might very well be my favorite season, I can't even keep track of when they're together and when they're not, and it's a little bit too much like watching a soap opera or kids in highschool for my taste.
11. In "Enemies" 3x17 (possibly one of my favorite eps ever) I dislike how they never did get to use chains. bahahaha.
12. I'm not the biggest fan of many elements of "I Will Remember You", AtS 1x08. I'm reposting part of a comment here to explain exactly the things I don't like about the ep:
I like how Jossverse so often asks "what if"--the Wish, IWRY, Birthday, Spin the Bottle, Tabula Rasa--all take us to alternate realities and it's like fanfic. But out of these, IWRY is the most flimsy. I hate the mechanism for plunging into this AU--the mohra demon is lame (looked lame--like something out of Power Rangers, what it does is lame, way to defeat it is lame; it's just lame). The mechanism for getting out of the AU--the Oracles--are also lame. They're deus ex machina of the worst kind, and they also look cheesy.
When I first saw "The Wish", I felt the same way about Anya--she was just a device to get us into another world. But the fact that the universe then explained vengeance demons, embraced them, showed us who they are and why they are and what they can do--made "The Wish" not just some funky joy ride but a story that seems to have meaning in the scheme of Whedon's universe.
IWRY, though, is conveniently swept under the rug. It's like ME's dirty secret--a way to cater to B/A fans and give them what they want without making any significant changes to anyone or anything. This day should've had reverbs. The mohra demons should've played a part later on. Instead it feels like a wart on the plane of AtS, something they had to do to make someone happy. I read that Whedon regrets doing IWRY so soon in AtS, and I agree 100%. It could've been such a big part of the overall arc of the series if it had happened later on. Instead it feels like left-overs from BtVS. (This is partly a problem with the series, not the episode. The exact same ep would've been great had they brought back elements from the show--the Mohra and the "together you are strong; alone you are dead"--later in the series.)
So, I don't like the plot or the device of the Mohra demon. I also don't like DB's acting in the sewers, when he and Buffy are discussing how they still can't be together. It makes me grit my teeth and want to scream. He doesn't sound like he loves her to me; he just sounds annoyed. Which is a shame, because he was phenomenal in the sewer scene in "Prom."
And I . . . don't like the "not enough time scene." It's SMG's acting. I love how that's the one scene where Buffy really breaks down in the entire 7 years. That's the one time she sobs. And objectively, I can see that SMG did a good job with it. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way.
Last, I don't like Angel saying, "Oh, I gotta go fight this guy myself." It doesn't ring true for me. I understand his decision in the end--he wants to earn his redemption, not have it fall in his lap. He sincerely believes his purpose is to help people, and it's Buffy who taught him that, and isn't it ironic and sad that he has to give up Buffy to do it. But the way these truths finally become clear to him seem lame to me. Angel does have a habit of wanting to rush into the fray and take care of things himself, but the whole Mohra demon thing was so lame anyway, this felt really contrived.
13. In "Chosen", BtVS 7x22, I dislike the talk in the graveyard after Buffy and Angel move out of the crypt (love Angel watching her in the crypt, and the basking, and the kissing. Just afterwards gets sticky.) Again, pasting from a comment elsewhere: Buffy is not Patrick Henry or anything. If she'd given an eloquent speech in that scene I'd like it a whole lot less than the cookie dough thing. But Buffy is repeatedly shown to be extremely witty and clever--and it seems to me there is a metaphor out there somewhere that's just as endearingly goofy but not so . . . banal.
The other thing I don't like about the scene is Angel doesn't act like someone who's just given his son away. I know Spike makes him act like a 12 year old, and I love that about the A/S dynamic, but this being the last B/A scene we were ever going to get, I felt kind of . . . let down.
14. Like many people, I dislike "The Girl In Question", AtS 5x20. Both Angel and Spike had allowed Buffy to move on. While it seems obvious they will never let go of her in their hearts, I thought the show twisted that sentiment in order to give Angel and Spike something to compete over and make fools of themselves for. And I love seeing Angel and Spike be dumbasses; they're not perfect; sometimes they're just utterly ridiculous. But the fact that the ep turned on their heads one of the most beautiful and mature decisions Angel had made, and a decision Spike had made that I thought really showed his growth, felt like bad writing and bad characterization to me.
The line "I signalled her with my eyes" also really, really grates me the wrong way. Angel hates that he put Buffy in a position that made her have to kill him, he hates what it did to her and he hates himself for causing it. I have trouble seeing him trivializing it in that way, no matter how far he'll go to beat Spike in a pissing match.
*
Also, I love B/A fanfic. It's what brought me to the fandom, and there are a bunch of talented B/A authors and a bunch of great B/A fics. But there are also certain things that crop up in some B/A fanfic that's not to my taste. These are just my opinions, personal quibbles and dislikes I have. Actually, almost all of these things have appeared in excellent fics I've loved to death--in the end, it really just depends on how these elements are handled. Disclaimer over, now onto the dirt. ;o)
1. I don't like "I Will Remember You" babies, i.e., Buffy is preganant and she doesn't know how she got that way (and she knows it can't be Riley because after all, he raped her on a Tuesday), so she has to go to LA to see Angel about it. Yeah, the problem with that? Is Angel didn't give everyone amnesia, or new memories, like he did for Connor. Angel got the day erased. It didn't happen. No pregnancy, no sex, no ice cream on the chest, nothing happened but those few minutes in Angel's office.
2. For that reason, having Buffy remember the swallowed day makes no sense. She seems to have a flashback to it in almost every B/A fic, and if there's not a flashback there's some kind of mention. Little nods to it can be meaningful and very well done, and some of my very favorite, most excellently written fics have them. But other times I feel like it's in the story just to be there, just because so many of us love that ep. But I don't, and it drives me a little nuts.
3. On that note, certain things used again and again annoy me. Among them: claddagh rings, the line "forever, that's the whole point", "you still my girl? Always", repetitions of "his girl". I love these moments and lines in canon. But they do not need to be in every B/A fic ever.
4. I don't like how submissive Buffy is in a lot of B/A fics. While they kind of filled out traditional gender roles in S2, Buffy was the one eager to lead on in the relationship, not Angel. Also, Buffy is a kickass hero leader, why does she always have to be on her back? Also, later seasons show Buffy most certainly is not sexually submissive, so why would she be to Angel?
5. I don't like how most B/A biting is handled. It's sexy in "Graduation" 3x22, and I'm sure it can be sexy in fic. But Angel hated biting Buffy, he hated loving it so much, he hated getting off on it--I have difficulty seeing him doing it again unless there is something super fucked up going on. And if Buffy liked getting bit, she's ashamed of it; she's ashamed of it the way she's ashamed of fucking Spike in S6. So unless Buffy is broken and damaged, I don't see her asking for it. Unless all these issues have been addressed and dealt with, in which case I could see B/A possibly coming to a place in which the biting is accepted and alright. But if an author doesn't deal with all that it just turns me right off.
6. I don't like Angel saying, "I love you" more than once. He hardly ever says that in either series, and he wouldn't, except to Connor (if Connor would let him). In fact, Angel just doesn't go off about his feelings, except in "Sense and Sensitivity", AtS 1x6, and neither does Buffy after "Becoming", BtVS 2x22. They don't have long talks about how much they love each other, and they don't yell and scream when they're angry (or rarely do).
7. I dislike the "soulmate" thing. I kind of have a kink for the "mate" thing, if it's done well, but this idea of "Angel is my soulmate; I'll always love him best" schtick annoys the crap out of me. Buffy can love other people just as much. And if she doesn't believe that, I feel like she's kind of deceptive in her relationship with Riley (I'd add "also S7 relationship with Spike" but there are so many things wrong with S7 it's difficult to say).
8. I dislike B/Aus, but that's another can o' worms.
*
Okay, now that the unpleasantness is over, rec a fic with these elements you really really like. Or explain why you like the canon B/A bits I dislike and woo me into loving them too. Or rant about things you dislike about your own OTP here or here (it's never too late). Or love, love hard, on B/A, other pairings, Jossverse, fandom, kittens, soda pop, and your RL honey, be it your husband, your dog, or--if you're like me--that big bar of chocolate and B/A ep you plan on curling up with tomorrow.
ETA: I hate the term "Bangel". That's at the top of my list.
That said, there're things that just drives me personally crazy about it, and not in a good way.
1. I feel like neither DB nor the writers had a very good handle on Angel until "Angel", BtVS 1x07, and even then, he still seemed shakey to me until S3.
2. In "Teacher's Pet", 1x04, I dislike the "You're cold...I mean you look cold" dialogue. I love that he gives her his coat, but that's just clunky--bad--writing.
3. I don't like the line "When you kiss me, I want to die" in "Reptile Boy", 2x05. It makes for some very interesting things to play with in fic (see orgasm face during biting scene in "Graduation", 3x22 and gradual arc toward embracing death), but I don't get what Buffy means. And if I do get it, I don't understand why Buffy wants him and why Angel doesn't worry about it more.
4. I don't like the way DB says "Buffy." Ever. Someone once mentioned that it's difficult to inflect a goofy name like "Buffy" with the meaning he tries to give it, but I think JM does just fine. (However I love to death the way SMG says "Angel," especially in "Prophecy Girl," 1x12. Buffy never says anyone else's name like that again except when it's Angel--and she still says it the same way, even in S7.)
5. I've said this before, but I think the Claddagh rings in "Surprise", 2x13 are cheesy. I like them, but they're really, really cheesy.
6. I don't find the scene in "Surprise" just before they have sex very sexy (except for once, when my mom said--when Angel was looking at the cut on her back: "Oh come on, you know you want to lick it!"). I don't like the way SMG acts it. She does a good job, but something about it seems overly . . .melodramatic to me.
7. I dislike "I Only Have Eyes For You", 2x19. Part of it is my dislike of B/Aus, which I'll go into elsewhere. Part of it is I felt like it wanted to show us there's some bit of the soul somewhere inside Angelus, and there's really not (the scene with him scrubbing himself after his encounter does much to dispel that. I do love that scene, though not the least because DB has his shirt off.) Part of it is the plot is corny--the idea that the spell is "calling" Buffy and Angel. Part of it is I don't like DB's acting when he has to be possessed by a woman. There's a commentary in which Whedon says that bit was when he knew DB was talented enough to carry his own show, but I personally despise the way that scene is delivered.
8. The Tai Chi? Also cheesy. I love it, but very very cheesy.
9. I'm not the biggest fan of the magical snow in "Amends" 3x10 I feel like I get it. It's like everyone is realizing there are things bigger and more powerful and beautiful than themselves, just like they are confronted with bigger, more powerful and ugly things ever single day. Also, it's snowed all of three times in my life in Houston, and the last time was on Christmas Eve--I feel like I know how magical that can be.
But--maybe because I tend to have a one-track mind, a dog with a bone--it wouldn't be enough for me to feel like my issues with my boyfriend were resolved. It wouldn't be enough for me to understand that snow has suddenly curbed his instinct toward suicide. B/A had so, so many issues during S3, and they never talked about them. In other places, I like that; that's how they are--but in this scene where the bottling finally explodes and everything comes tumbling out, I'm very frustrated that so little actually gets said all because of the magical snow.
10. I dislike how S3 feels so on-again off-again. It seems to make sense when you're watching, but as much as I love B/A and as much as S3 might very well be my favorite season, I can't even keep track of when they're together and when they're not, and it's a little bit too much like watching a soap opera or kids in highschool for my taste.
11. In "Enemies" 3x17 (possibly one of my favorite eps ever) I dislike how they never did get to use chains. bahahaha.
12. I'm not the biggest fan of many elements of "I Will Remember You", AtS 1x08. I'm reposting part of a comment here to explain exactly the things I don't like about the ep:
I like how Jossverse so often asks "what if"--the Wish, IWRY, Birthday, Spin the Bottle, Tabula Rasa--all take us to alternate realities and it's like fanfic. But out of these, IWRY is the most flimsy. I hate the mechanism for plunging into this AU--the mohra demon is lame (looked lame--like something out of Power Rangers, what it does is lame, way to defeat it is lame; it's just lame). The mechanism for getting out of the AU--the Oracles--are also lame. They're deus ex machina of the worst kind, and they also look cheesy.
When I first saw "The Wish", I felt the same way about Anya--she was just a device to get us into another world. But the fact that the universe then explained vengeance demons, embraced them, showed us who they are and why they are and what they can do--made "The Wish" not just some funky joy ride but a story that seems to have meaning in the scheme of Whedon's universe.
IWRY, though, is conveniently swept under the rug. It's like ME's dirty secret--a way to cater to B/A fans and give them what they want without making any significant changes to anyone or anything. This day should've had reverbs. The mohra demons should've played a part later on. Instead it feels like a wart on the plane of AtS, something they had to do to make someone happy. I read that Whedon regrets doing IWRY so soon in AtS, and I agree 100%. It could've been such a big part of the overall arc of the series if it had happened later on. Instead it feels like left-overs from BtVS. (This is partly a problem with the series, not the episode. The exact same ep would've been great had they brought back elements from the show--the Mohra and the "together you are strong; alone you are dead"--later in the series.)
So, I don't like the plot or the device of the Mohra demon. I also don't like DB's acting in the sewers, when he and Buffy are discussing how they still can't be together. It makes me grit my teeth and want to scream. He doesn't sound like he loves her to me; he just sounds annoyed. Which is a shame, because he was phenomenal in the sewer scene in "Prom."
And I . . . don't like the "not enough time scene." It's SMG's acting. I love how that's the one scene where Buffy really breaks down in the entire 7 years. That's the one time she sobs. And objectively, I can see that SMG did a good job with it. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way.
Last, I don't like Angel saying, "Oh, I gotta go fight this guy myself." It doesn't ring true for me. I understand his decision in the end--he wants to earn his redemption, not have it fall in his lap. He sincerely believes his purpose is to help people, and it's Buffy who taught him that, and isn't it ironic and sad that he has to give up Buffy to do it. But the way these truths finally become clear to him seem lame to me. Angel does have a habit of wanting to rush into the fray and take care of things himself, but the whole Mohra demon thing was so lame anyway, this felt really contrived.
13. In "Chosen", BtVS 7x22, I dislike the talk in the graveyard after Buffy and Angel move out of the crypt (love Angel watching her in the crypt, and the basking, and the kissing. Just afterwards gets sticky.) Again, pasting from a comment elsewhere: Buffy is not Patrick Henry or anything. If she'd given an eloquent speech in that scene I'd like it a whole lot less than the cookie dough thing. But Buffy is repeatedly shown to be extremely witty and clever--and it seems to me there is a metaphor out there somewhere that's just as endearingly goofy but not so . . . banal.
The other thing I don't like about the scene is Angel doesn't act like someone who's just given his son away. I know Spike makes him act like a 12 year old, and I love that about the A/S dynamic, but this being the last B/A scene we were ever going to get, I felt kind of . . . let down.
14. Like many people, I dislike "The Girl In Question", AtS 5x20. Both Angel and Spike had allowed Buffy to move on. While it seems obvious they will never let go of her in their hearts, I thought the show twisted that sentiment in order to give Angel and Spike something to compete over and make fools of themselves for. And I love seeing Angel and Spike be dumbasses; they're not perfect; sometimes they're just utterly ridiculous. But the fact that the ep turned on their heads one of the most beautiful and mature decisions Angel had made, and a decision Spike had made that I thought really showed his growth, felt like bad writing and bad characterization to me.
The line "I signalled her with my eyes" also really, really grates me the wrong way. Angel hates that he put Buffy in a position that made her have to kill him, he hates what it did to her and he hates himself for causing it. I have trouble seeing him trivializing it in that way, no matter how far he'll go to beat Spike in a pissing match.
*
Also, I love B/A fanfic. It's what brought me to the fandom, and there are a bunch of talented B/A authors and a bunch of great B/A fics. But there are also certain things that crop up in some B/A fanfic that's not to my taste. These are just my opinions, personal quibbles and dislikes I have. Actually, almost all of these things have appeared in excellent fics I've loved to death--in the end, it really just depends on how these elements are handled. Disclaimer over, now onto the dirt. ;o)
1. I don't like "I Will Remember You" babies, i.e., Buffy is preganant and she doesn't know how she got that way (and she knows it can't be Riley because after all, he raped her on a Tuesday), so she has to go to LA to see Angel about it. Yeah, the problem with that? Is Angel didn't give everyone amnesia, or new memories, like he did for Connor. Angel got the day erased. It didn't happen. No pregnancy, no sex, no ice cream on the chest, nothing happened but those few minutes in Angel's office.
2. For that reason, having Buffy remember the swallowed day makes no sense. She seems to have a flashback to it in almost every B/A fic, and if there's not a flashback there's some kind of mention. Little nods to it can be meaningful and very well done, and some of my very favorite, most excellently written fics have them. But other times I feel like it's in the story just to be there, just because so many of us love that ep. But I don't, and it drives me a little nuts.
3. On that note, certain things used again and again annoy me. Among them: claddagh rings, the line "forever, that's the whole point", "you still my girl? Always", repetitions of "his girl". I love these moments and lines in canon. But they do not need to be in every B/A fic ever.
4. I don't like how submissive Buffy is in a lot of B/A fics. While they kind of filled out traditional gender roles in S2, Buffy was the one eager to lead on in the relationship, not Angel. Also, Buffy is a kickass hero leader, why does she always have to be on her back? Also, later seasons show Buffy most certainly is not sexually submissive, so why would she be to Angel?
5. I don't like how most B/A biting is handled. It's sexy in "Graduation" 3x22, and I'm sure it can be sexy in fic. But Angel hated biting Buffy, he hated loving it so much, he hated getting off on it--I have difficulty seeing him doing it again unless there is something super fucked up going on. And if Buffy liked getting bit, she's ashamed of it; she's ashamed of it the way she's ashamed of fucking Spike in S6. So unless Buffy is broken and damaged, I don't see her asking for it. Unless all these issues have been addressed and dealt with, in which case I could see B/A possibly coming to a place in which the biting is accepted and alright. But if an author doesn't deal with all that it just turns me right off.
6. I don't like Angel saying, "I love you" more than once. He hardly ever says that in either series, and he wouldn't, except to Connor (if Connor would let him). In fact, Angel just doesn't go off about his feelings, except in "Sense and Sensitivity", AtS 1x6, and neither does Buffy after "Becoming", BtVS 2x22. They don't have long talks about how much they love each other, and they don't yell and scream when they're angry (or rarely do).
7. I dislike the "soulmate" thing. I kind of have a kink for the "mate" thing, if it's done well, but this idea of "Angel is my soulmate; I'll always love him best" schtick annoys the crap out of me. Buffy can love other people just as much. And if she doesn't believe that, I feel like she's kind of deceptive in her relationship with Riley (I'd add "also S7 relationship with Spike" but there are so many things wrong with S7 it's difficult to say).
8. I dislike B/Aus, but that's another can o' worms.
*
Okay, now that the unpleasantness is over, rec a fic with these elements you really really like. Or explain why you like the canon B/A bits I dislike and woo me into loving them too. Or rant about things you dislike about your own OTP here or here (it's never too late). Or love, love hard, on B/A, other pairings, Jossverse, fandom, kittens, soda pop, and your RL honey, be it your husband, your dog, or--if you're like me--that big bar of chocolate and B/A ep you plan on curling up with tomorrow.
ETA: I hate the term "Bangel". That's at the top of my list.
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I think it's also what a lot of women find sexy--I know I do, and I don't think as many of the Harlequinn novels I've read would sell as well as they do if other women didn't feel the same way. But it's not Buffy.
For example, I never felt that the soul-losing sex was supposed to be particularly sexy - I mean, they just crawled out of the harbor, they're cold and wet and scared. Not conducive to boom-chika-wow-wow.
I guess I think most sex/foreplay/pre-sex scenes are supposed to be sexy unless they're really, really blantantly not. But part of the reason I didn't like it was I felt like SMG had this kind of "I'm acting this scene all sweet and achey and vulnerable and wanting and sexy", thing going on.
Spike, once he accepts that he loves Buffy, never seems to want to bite her at all,
Yeah! I wonder why that was, actually.
But that whole sniffing/licking/growling scene? OMGSOHOT!!!
I know!
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I think it's as simple as this: All of Spike is in love with Buffy, not just pieces of him. It may be a scary obsessive demon love, but the demonic parts of him, too, see her as Buffy, not food.
That aside, Spike's just less vampy than your average vampire. He doesn't go into game face often, even when angry or aroused; he tends to fall out of game face unless he's really thinking about it; and while he complains about the taste of pig's blood now and again, he never seems to have the problems Angel does with craving human blood in general. When he goes after Alley Woman, for example, he's doing it in spite and anger and "I'll show her a monster!" rather than out of any irresistable craving for blood.
Angel has this whole recovering-alcoholic thing going in regards to human blood, but that's never been Spike's metaphor. The only time we ever see Spike exhibit that kind of bloodlust is in NLM, which is anomalous in a lot of ways. The most sense I've ever seen made of that episode is Peasant's essay comparing Spike's First-controlled killings to the spree killing that many predator species exhibit when presented with a superabundance of prey. Predators prevented from continuing a spree killing can react with violent or irritable symptoms which could be compared to withdrawal, though it's a behavior rather than a substance that they're 'addicted' to.
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And dude, MASSIVE icon love.
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...or maybe Seth fellating a sockpuppet. *points up*
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OMG, you win.
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So you don't want to read my (unwritten) RPS masterpiece about Seth and Ed the Sock's forbidden, overwhelming love affair?
*cries*
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No. No fuckin' way.
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I'm still amazed, a year later, that I managed to even dream up the damn idea, let alone get subsidiary plot-like thoughts. It's times like that when I realize going outside would be a very good idea.
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I guess part of it is I accidentally stumbled across Spike/sockpuppet porn and...and I'm traumatized for life. Now who needs to go outside?
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The thing there is I think Angel is in love with all of Buffy, too, and he still sees her as food. Though as you say, Angel has the alcoholism thing.
That aside, Spike's just less vampy than your average vampire.
Yeah, interesting! That's something you worked with in ARITS, and I very much appreciated it as I hadn't really noticed it before.
The most sense I've ever seen made of that episode is Peasant's essay comparing Spike's First-controlled killings to the spree killing that many predator species exhibit when presented with a superabundance of prey.
Oh, wow, what an interesting theory. Peasant, she writes good essays. I'll have to dig that one up.
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Ah, see, there's the difference for me; I don't think the demon parts of Angel love Buffy. Or later, Cordy. And even more weirdly, Angelus didn't even seem very interested in Connor, whom he ought logically have been obsessed with. (I do think he loved Darla, oddly enough, for all that he denied it so strenuously.)
That's the one reason I might be interested in a B/Aus fic, if it explored the reasons for the emotional differences between souled and unsouled Angel, when most of the other vampires we've seen change states have so much more emotional continuity. It's something that bugs me.
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But you're right; there are inconsistencies. At first I didn't think Angelus loved Buffy at all, and I didn't for quite a bit afterwards. I've since come to the conclusion that he loves her as much as Angel but his love is seriously, gravely fucked the fuck up. His obsession with her and his completely manic behavior (historic!Angelus seemed to be having a lot of fun wreaking havoc; he never once seems interested in destroying the world) seem to suggest as much.
But as you also point out, Connor is the biggest glaring difference in Angel and Angelus. I can fanwank it but it doesn't make any real sense to me.
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Doesn't Angelus say that Connor "creeps him out"? I've always interpreted his avoidance of Connor as telegraphing something about Connor - he's human-but-not, he's the product of perfect despair, he's alien, all of that - a message that, admittedly, gets garbled, but ties into the demon-violence spell working on Connor. Like, hmm. Angelus senses something really different/off/dangerous about Connor.
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Dude, I think Angel fantasizes about killing people like that all the time. He fantasizes about it when he's on friendly terms with people, you know?--because secrets parts of him like killing, enjoy it, get off on it, want it all the fuckin time. He does say that snapping necks is something he never gets tired of (when he kills Jenny). I would think that with nothing but yourself (and nothing to nourish you) at the bottom of the ocean those dark desires would increase tenfold and be very near the surface.
Also, he's angry at Connor for more than just sinking him--he's angry at Connor because Connor got stolen, because he hates Wesley, because he hates Holtz and Justine and Sajan (sp?), because he hates himself for not saving Connor, for giving up on Connor, because he thinks Connor loves Holtz more than him, because Connor is the one creature on the face of the earth he loves completely, without reservation, the one person he feels like he has the right to love--and Connor won't give him that at all. *sniff*
All that said (way more in depth than I meant to ;o), I think your theory is interesting. They never did explain what exactly Connor was. The idea of him as some kind of warped abberation--neither demon nor human, and a threat to both--is a fascinating idea.
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When I say that the demon part of Angel doesn’t love Buffy, it’s shorthand. My personal theory of vampires isn’t much different from the one in the article--I do think that the demonic animating force has some effect on the personality of the vampire; it provides the bloodlust and urge to violence, which, in combination with the human’s intelligence, makes a vampire evil rather than simply amoral. Once it infuses the human host, I don’t think it exists as a separate entity any more than the soul does; I think of the demon and the soul rather like different lenses which affect the way the basic human personality shines through. The presence or absence of either affects the way in which emotions are expressed.
While it makes very little sense to me that this should be so, the show went to a great deal of trouble to establish that without a soul, Angel can’t/doesn’t love Buffy, even in the twisted scary way that other vampires are capable of loving. Angel claims he never loved Darla, either, and he probably believes this, but in that case, I think his actions belie his words. My own fanwank is that this is rooted in the reasons why Angel fell in love with Buffy in the first place, and what that love means to him. Initially, at least, a very large part of his attraction to her is based on seeing her as the inspiration and means through which he can atone. When he loses his soul, he no longer wants to atone; the whole idea is repugnant, and so his love for her not only doesn’t survive the transition, she becomes something he must destroy. (And then there’s Liam’s love/hate relationship with his family to consider, and Angel’s difficulty in sustaining personal relationships in general.)
Of course Angel’s feelings for Buffy aren’t static, and it seems to me that as the nature of his relationship to her changes, the nature of Angelus’s reaction to her ought to change, too. To some extent this canon supports this; in AtS S4, Angelus’s obsession with tormenting Buffy seems to have diminished considerably. To me that would indicate that Angel’s found other, internal reasons to fight the good fight, and/or that he’s moving on. That’s probably not a fanwank that a B/A shipper would find especially resonant or satisfying, though.
Of course, none of that satisfactorily explains Connor. :P
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They make our lives difficult! But I love em anyway.
When I say that the demon part of Angel doesn’t love Buffy, it’s shorthand.
Sorry, I misunderstood!
I think of the demon and the soul rather like different lenses which affect the way the basic human personality shines through.
That's an awesome way of putting it, and exactly how I look at it.
While it makes very little sense to me that this should be so, the show went to a great deal of trouble to establish that without a soul, Angel can’t/doesn’t love Buffy, even in the twisted scary way that other vampires are capable of loving.
Here's where I can't agree. Part of it is the reason he fell in love with her: yes, she inspired him to do good, and in that she's more a figurehead to him than a real person. But the other reason he fell in love with her in the first place, I think, was her strength. Not only her strength, but her pushiness and dominance and tendency towards leadership--the very same things that attracted him to Darla.
So when he loses his soul, he no longer appreciates the use to which she puts her strength and those other attributes, but those attributes really attract him, and that's why he's obsessed with her. I would even go so far as to say "loves" her. I've seen some B/Aus fans wank it as "he loves her, and that's why he doesn't do her or any of her closest friends serious damage" which makes me say, hello, Giles? Buffy's mental torture? That is, loving someone doesn't necessarily mean you don't want to destroy them.
People have different ways of loving. Spike seems to tend towards wanting to nourish. His love for Dru was twisted, but he seriously wanted her to get better. He loved Buffy in a way that made him want to show her what he thought was her real self, and to be there when she wanted him even though she didn't love him. I think Angel wants to nourish but that it doesn't come naturally to him. He destroys everything he touches without even meaning to. I mean, exactly this: (And then there’s Liam’s love/hate relationship with his family to consider, and Angel’s difficulty in sustaining personal relationships in general.) Just because he handles it badly doesn't mean he doesn't love.
To some extent this canon supports this; in AtS S4, Angelus’s obsession with tormenting Buffy seems to have diminished considerably. To me that would indicate that Angel’s found other, internal reasons to fight the good fight, and/or that he’s moving on.
This makes sense to me. Angel's definitely found other reasons to fight, and Angelus would certainly be intent on destroying those things. But again, just because he wants to destroy goodness in its every incarnation doesn't say to me that he doesn't love Buffy.
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I don't agree with the people who say that B/A was an immature relationship--in fact, the "Buffy's too childish to know her own mind" tack that ME took at the end of S3 irritates me no end. I sympathise with the necessity of booting Angel off to his own show, but Joss's oft-repeated statement that he didn't know what to do with Buffy and Angel in S3 just makes me roll my eyes--I can think of two or three possible plotlines off the top of my head, the most glaringly obvious being "Find a way to break the curse, ya dumbasses!"
But as a result of the story they did go with, I think B/A didn't get much of a chance to develop as a relationship. They were constantly being interrupted by traumatic events of one sort or another--of the two and a half years they were together, around eighteen months was taken up by Buffy being in LA, Angel being in Hell, Angel being Angelus, Buffy being indecisive, Angel being avoidy, etc. If they ever did get together and stayed together and changed together, I'd expect the next time someone removed Angel's soul for a research progect, things might be slightly different.
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Though I do feel the need to point out that Angelus treated Buffy differently than Darla because their orientation (insofar as "good" or "evil") did mean something to him, quite a bit. I just prefer to believe he still loved Buffy's strength, determination, etc, but I can freely admit that's my personal fanwank on it. ;o)