lettered: (Default)
It's Lion Turtles all the way down ([personal profile] lettered) wrote2006-03-03 02:15 pm

Let's talk about authorial intent.

I've got questions about authorial intent...



I write two types of fanfic, and each fulfills a need of mine. They are:

1. The fic that focuses on story, and that I write
-for fun.
-for escape.
-because it poured out of me.
-because something could've been better in canon and I wanted to fix it.
-because something was missing in canon and I wanted to fill it in.
-because canon was perfect, and I just wanted more.
-because I wanted to see what happened after the end.
-and come up with Best Souvenir, a shippy, plotty, epic, with a style that does not call attention to itself.

2. The fic that focuses on form, and that I write
-for intellectual stimulation.
-to become a better writer.
-to experiment with style and techniques through a medium in which I feel less disappointed about messing up (as opposed to original fiction).
-to express how I feel about canon.
-to express insights on theme, motivation, fractals, and interrelationships between characters in canon
-and come up with Five Ways NFA Probably Didn't End, a non-linear, technically experimental, containing dense language, and generally shorter fic.

For me, the difference between these two types of fics is very clear-cut. I do want those of type #1 to be the best they can be--I get them beta'ed by a wonderful gal who beats me over the head when I need it, and work hard to make the players interesting and in character. And I do want those of type #2 to be fun, to give me more of canon, to show things that could've happened.

But the difference is the intent. I set out writing Best Souvenir (type #1) because I wanted to see what would've happened if post "Chosen" Buffy met Angel. I set out writing Blood Types (type #2) because I wanted to see how a theme could illuminate Angel and his interrelationship with others through metaphor. I set out writing type #1 because I want a good story. I set out writing type #2 because I want good writing and thinky thoughts. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but how I approach them is different.

I've read some wonderful fics that my guess is are type #1, and the same for #2. I enjoy both equally, though they push really, really different buttons. But most of the great fic I see seems to be a combination of both: good stories, with interesting scenes that give me more of what could've happened in canon, expanding on characters I love and making me feel good having more of them, but also--finding new ways to use words, new ways to express things, tweaking the "rules" a bit and experimenting.

Then there are fics that are neither, and we call those crack!fics. Some crack!fic, I honestly don't understand why people write. But some crack!fic has shades of type #1--it's fun, entertaing, escapist, but the material extended and filled in and played with is fandom, not canon. The intent there, of course, is not to tell a good story, but to tell a good joke. And some fics we call crack have shades of type #2--Angel may be a crack!h0r and Spike may be a wealthy orphan monk--but it's technically brilliant: a unique use of second person, lyric language that needs to be published, omg, and thoughtful and insightful, wow. And while the premise is ridiculous, the intent is not a joke, but a good story.

(Which is why, I think, there's so much confusion/contention surrounding the term "crack!fic". There's a little blurring, between the latter kind of crack!fic and the former, and do you as an author think about which you're setting out to do when you start? And sometimes there's a blur between the latter and what we'd call "serious" fic--do you know when you're writing Buffy!prisongaurd/Faith!convict that it's crack, or is it not crack for you because you bring in real character traits of both Buffy and Faith to the table, and at which point did it become serious for you as opposed to crack? And how did your approach to it change?)

I'm also interested in the intent behind some of the one-shots written in only a couple hours, for requests, or on a whim, just to get the idea off their heads. A bunch of not-so-great fic authors write this as their standard fare, but I've seen splendid fic authors do it, and I'm wondering what their intent is. Or rather, I know what the intent is: to have fun, to er, shoot off, in a way, just to get the idea off their heads (or that thing off their faces. You know, that thing? Has no one else ever noticed the thing?) But what I'm wondering about is the approach; do the--as I mentioned, some of them really fantastic--authors who do this know when they sit down to write that such and such piece is just going to be a fly-by, a by-blow, a blow-off, an off-shoot (how long can I keep that up, huh?) Do they know it's not going to be a masterpiece? And if they do, do they still expect it to be good? Do they want people to enjoy it and leave them fb? Do they think about that when they're writing? And when they sit down to write something really serious and really important to them, do they actually sit down to write with a different attitude?

What I want to know, I guess, is: what's your intent when you sit down to write a fic? Do you have very different intents for different types of fics? Do you want to write a masterpiece every time you start out to write a piece? Or do you just plan on trying your very best every time? Or do you start out knowing it's just going to be a little doodle in your sketch pad you might show off a bit? At what point do you know that doodle might become a masterpiece, and then how does your attitude toward writing it change?

Also: what about your expectations of fb in respect to your intent? If you plan to try really hard, write as close as you personally can get to a masterpiece, do you expect/want more fb? If you only spend a couple hours or days on a fic that you started on a whim, and don't get a beta for it, are you disappointed when there isn't fb? Are you disappointed when the whim-doodle (that should be a word) fics get more fb than the ones you tried to make perfect as possible?

And how do you delineate the difference to your readers? Do you warn them in your A/N that hey, you didn't get this beta'ed? Or hey, I worked my ass off on this and I think it's the best thing I've ever done? And do you expect people to respond accordingly?


Anybody got an opinion on this type of thing?

*puts on tea* *gets you a cozie*
my_daroga: Mucha's "Dance" (Default)

[personal profile] my_daroga 2006-03-05 06:44 am (UTC)(link)
I guess it depends on our relation to fanfic as well; I'm sure my book will get a lot more scrutiny, but my fanfic is what I do when I'm supposed to be trying to become "professional," so I don't feel I can really spend (waste?) lots of time on it.

This is not to say that ff is a waste, or that I consider it such. I certainly spend enough time reading it! But ff writing is, for me, always a form of crack.
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 06:46 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, good on you for trying out writing fanfic! I love hearing from people just starting it...I've always been writing it, even before I knew the term "fanfic". When I first got online and discovered that other people did it too, and that more people were being inspired to write it by reading it--it warmed my soul :o)

Frequently I'll find myself thinking "what issues would A character have to resolve to even consider kissing/liking/respecting B character, and vice versa?"

A great question to ask. I feel like a lot of people don't actually ask themselves that--they feel like they know the characters already and know what they would do. And I think a lot of that comes, actually, from interacting in fandom...read a lot of good Xander slash, and you forget Xander's not gay (or at least out of the closet, as some would have it!) in canon. I think it's important--even if you DO want to write a fic in which Xander is gay and already out of the closet--to think about how the canon character got there and how he would proceed. Plus, when I'm asking myself that, and thinking about how the character would get to that point? It feels like I'm watching more of the show in my head.

I also write scripts with a writing partner so I'm finding that the scriptwriting and the fanfic writing are useful to gain skills for both forms of writing.

Oh, cool! What do you write scripts for? For fun? Professional? *is nosy*

And thank *you* for adding your thoughts!

[identity profile] stultiloquentia.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 07:00 am (UTC)(link)
I like these posts. Lovely chances to blither about ourselves. :)

What I want to know, I guess, is: what's your intent when you sit down to write a fic?

Gosh, I have so many modes.

For me, poetry is the fastest way to an intellectual high. I can pick a form and a theme and slam it out in two nights, like solving one of the diabolical 3-D wooden puzzles my grandpa used to carve. What a rush. Stories take me waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer.

For stories, I like unsettling myself with strange challenges: I wrote "The Still Point" because I'd never done romance; "Illyria Writes a Poem" because I'd never finished a sestina; I'm writing the Bangelpron because I've never done smut. I also write to see how skillfully I can patch up canonical problem spots such as Cirdan the immortal Elf's grey hair and the Slayer's origin story. I wrote Arwen because I needed to know who she was. I wrote post-NFA Spuffy because I needed to know if it was possible. (Still not sure.) (The Bangel is taking so long because I don't think it's possible, but damned if I can't sell it to my readers!)

As for style, at present I'm figuring out what I want out of my signature "voice", and aiming to hone it. [livejournal.com profile] macha3 said recently, "stulti's writing style in both pieces careens along with poorly-suppressed glee," and I liked that. I think it's important to play with different styles and dialects, but for a default I think I want that one: agile, easy, con brio. Work cut out for a lifetime. :)

At what point do you know that doodle might become a masterpiece, and then how does your attitude toward writing it change?

I have pages and pages of "self-indulgent" writing on my hd—lots of Spuffy scenes, but a whole lot of other post-NFA stuff, too, mending Scoobie relationships, making up OCs, sneezing out (hi Jane!:)) odd little character studies. When I prepare something for posting, it has to have a hook. As soon as a hook dawns on me, the file gets shuttled from the Scraps folder to the Stories folder.

Also: what about your expectations of fb in respect to your intent?

Fb, to a large extent, is based on subject matter, not quality. I have few expectations when I post a piece. Otoh, there are stories I've read and failed to feed because they're too good, or rather, they provoked too complex a reaction. I feel like I should take time with fb for those, give a gift to the author, show them that I was paying attention, understood and appreciated what they were trying to say, instead of delivering a one line attagirl. And then time passes and it falls by the wayside, because I'm a terribly busy person. I *must* change this -- get in the habit of giving that attagirl right away, and bookmarking for a longer review if time allows.

And how do you delineate the difference to your readers? Do you warn them in your A/N that hey, you didn't get this beta'ed?

Ha. None of my Jverse stuff has been betaed. Flipping through, I see that most of it gets posted with an, "Oh dear, this is so sloppy, don't read it!" disclaimer and one hand over my face. Following which some people come along and say, "I like this," and then I go back and reread it and say, "Huh. All right, it's not that bad." The disclaiming is annoying; I should stop.

[identity profile] sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 07:29 am (UTC)(link)
I'm guessing that our practise of making shipper/extension of canon fics be very long and full of bits of everything...is due to our wishing that the plot of the TV series would have gone "our" way, and so we're writing our fic to resemble the format of the TV series. This makes it easier to visualize our version of the story on our imaginary TV screens.

You're a Buffy/Angel shipper, I think, aren't you? I envy y'all so much; you've got all kinds of lovely footage of B/A kissing and hugging and canoodling to watch and enjoy over and over. We Spike/Fred shippers never even got a lousy hug to look at. *sigh*

Oh, cool, Burkle fic! Awesome! And I love OCs when they're well done. But you're right, it definitely takes bravery.

Hee, I made Roger Burkle worry about whether little Jordy the werewolf should get vaccinated for Parvo.

I'm veeeeeeeeeeeeeery careful in my use of my original characters, and periodically beat the hell out of them with the Mary Sue whuppin' stick to insure that they won't become annoying.



[identity profile] cordelianne.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 08:03 am (UTC)(link)
And I think a lot of that comes, actually, from interacting in fandom...read a lot of good Xander slash, and you forget Xander's not gay (or at least out of the closet, as some would have it!) in canon.

Interesting point! Reading fanfic has definitely impacted - positively - my view of characters in the Jossverse, so I can see it also altering our perception of the characters when we write fanfic. I've read Xander slash that doesn't address the not-gay-in-canon issue which is really good and in character. However, in my writing I love figuring out how Xander would get to that place where he'd even consider kissing Spike (for example).

Plus, when I'm asking myself that, and thinking about how the character would get to that point? It feels like I'm watching more of the show in my head.

I do that as well! I always have a visual image of my fic (even if they're just sitting and talking), and it does play out like part of the show.

What do you write scripts for? For fun? Professional? *is nosy*
Not professionally yet. We would like to write for television professionally but are still working on breaking in.

[identity profile] paynbow.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 08:49 am (UTC)(link)
Gotcha on type 2. Yeah, I don't think I've ever approached a fic purely from a form perspective.

Breaking down the fourth wall essentially means acknowledging that what you are writing/performing/filming is a piece of entertainment, and as such, not real. The foruth wall in theatre and film is 'removed' so the audience can see what is being performed. When you acknowledge that what the audience is seeing/reading is not real, then you are breaking down the illusion that people are watching/reading through the invisible wall. In theatre, and I believe the technical term in the theatre is 'metatheatre', it is calling attnetion to the fact that what you are seeing is a play. A character may talk directly to the audience, or make a comment like, "well, in the script it says I'm sad, so I shall cry."

In a story I wrote (To Kill a Liaison (http://paynbow.livejournal.com/47061.html)) I have an entire section where the author talks to Eve.

“Sure,” replied Angel, and, priorities finally sorted out, the three super-powered heroes of light collapsed into a vanilla-scented heap-o-love in the middle of the lobby owned by the second greatest evil ever conceived by man*.

The rest of the AI crew turned away and noticed Eve sulking right where they had…well, ignored her.

“Can we get back to me?” she asked. “After all, I AM what this rather disjointed fan fiction is about!”

The author looked suitably chastised. “Sorry, Eve,” she replied, “but…well…Spike and Angel!”


See how I answer a question AND pimp my own story in one comment? I'm a little impressed *g*

I am so restraining myself right now. As a theatre student I have tonnes of information stored away on the 4th wall, it's origins, how certain directors broke it down or didn't. But I will not fill up your comments with crap about Stanislavsky and Artaud. In short, it's a huge theatrical concept that scholars argue about constantly, and I cheepen it for comic effect *g*

[identity profile] dodyskin.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 02:46 pm (UTC)(link)
All debates in fandom are circular (and cyclical, actually). I'd say the broad categories are: Critique: squee, constructive criticism, criticism, mockery, parody, betas, reviews; recs: nepotism, kink-indulgence, organisation & categorisation, warnings and ratings; judging; awards: the right to judge; ballot stuffing; popularity contests; BNFs; minions, private communities, invite only archives, grammar, spelling, canon interpretation, AU and crackfic, badfic. goodfic. longfic shortfic; mefic. youfic; a drabble is one hundred words; original writing is Better Than Fanfic Morally; art and morality; art and responsibility; censorship; incest, chan, slash: why we slash; why you slash, you freaks; transgressive slash; mainstream slash; passe slash; slash isn't saving the world; slash saved my life; real person slash; real person fic; personality rape; privacy theft; fan boundaries; constructed personalities; people as products; fan as consumer; fan as performer; the right to fan; fan in meatspace; public vs private fantasy; porn; fantasy vs fiction vs delusion; privacy; flocking; the performance of fandom; the performance of fannish identity; (genfen, hetters, slashers, vidders, writers, artists, readers, lurkers, RPGers, tinhats, wankers, wankas, cult of nice, mean girls, betas, reccers, archivists); tribalism; shipping, -istas (redemptionistas, evilistas); the Woobie; Mary Sue, who are you; female characters; fannish misogyny; privileging characters over real women; racism, sexism, classism; Where America Is Headed; fandom as international community; constitutional rights; internet privileges; legality; copyright; plagiarism; commerce; self-policing; border-policing...

Heh. I wouldn't worry about it! Just talk about what you're interested in. But there is the metabib here (http://community.livejournal.com/metabib/5398.html), the symposium"> and the newbie guide (http://community.livejournal.com/newbieguide/3535.html) if you're interested in mining the collective mindscape. There's also the wank_wiki (http://wiki.fandomwank.com/index.php/Main_Page) and you can search [livejournal.com profile] metafandom from the main page (scroll down).

And now I have to sit on my hands because I want to make a semantic relational database omg (http://www.visualthesaurus.com) and it will only make me sad and frustrated like a thwarted megalomaniac or similar.

I never feel that what I have to say necessitates said form.

That's completely different to the way I write. The form the words take and what the words are are inextricably linked in my mind. They are a complete, um, concept thing! :D I am trying to explain it but it is a bit like trying to explain how you think to another person. The important part gets lost in translation. Hm. I may be back.

(http://trickster.org/symposium/)

[identity profile] semby.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 03:50 pm (UTC)(link)
This is so interesting to me, because the short bursts of ideas thing never happens to me.

I might be totally making crap up here, but I think one factor that might affect our differences there is the fact that I write a lot of drabbles. Drabbles are just not something I'd ever spend a long period of time on, and while obviously the technique is different for longer stuff, just doing them over and over may have, uh... honed my technique to "spit out" fics?

by the time I get around to getting it beta'ed and those final little revisions that would just make it that much better, I can no longer stand it.

Yep, that's just like me. I do the same with academic papers. It's bad.

I hope this doesn't sound...weird or awkward or anything, but I think you totally deserve more fb. You're such a wonderful writer.

Well, thank you. And I do know that I'm really small-time, which (while I do think is somewhat affected by writing skill) I think is a lot to do with the fact that a) I write mostly gen, whereas most people look for shippy and b) I really just don't put myself out there very much. I'm all shy and stuff. ;)

Totally random FYI: I don't know if it's just my screen, but are you noticing that on your new paid-account journal pages, icons aren't visible? (Except for yours right now in the reply screen...) I think there's a way to change that in custom settings, you know, if that was something you cared to change.

[identity profile] janedavitt.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 04:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, you have to match the idea to the drabble; sometimes it can't be done; you're trying to fit a gallon in a thimble.

Drabbles, for me, are often for the fleeting scraps of thought that would be stretched goassamer-thin in a regular fic.


Btw, I just started Secretary the other night, and love it.

That's great to hear; thank you. I know people are still reading it, because I have it archived and see the stats, but I'm always surprised as it's been so long since it was written.

Glad you're enjoying it!

Why I am a very 'me!me!ME!' author.

[identity profile] leni-ba.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 05:02 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm a simple girl re: my writing. If I like the idea (and have time!), then I'll do it. See my first point in the last post: I write because *I* want to see something written.

I've never actually sat down and thought 'This will help me improve my writing skills', mainly because I don't consider myself *really* a writer but more a storyteller.

Some people have told me that my writing has improved, though. I'm happy and dance when I hear it. But my point is to make the story readable, hopefully enjoyable. But, frankly, I write until *I* enjoy the results. Selfish? Really? I don't think anyone can enjoy anything if its author doesn't really like it first.

If I ever consider that a particular piece will be 'a masterwork' (read: one of my favourites), not really. There are ideas I've loved but haven't grown into good fics. And then there are ideas I thought were common and in the end I *really* liked the stories (ex: Shades of Jealousy, Flour-Streaked. I was surprised at how well those turned out.)

Regarding betas. Heh. That's maybe where you'll see that I work mostly for my own fun. I send to beta only the stories I love. The stories where you'll see 'Betaed by...' or 'non-betaed' are those I think are my best. Or at least those I think have the potential to be my best.

And then there's the contradiction that is me: I LOVE writing for other people. It's challenging. I LOVE challenges - at least when I'm in the mood for them. I'm sloooooooooooow with requests, though. *hides* And about the comms, you'll see that my favourites are where I only get a prompt: [livejournal.com profile] open_on_sunday, [livejournal.com profile] fanfic100, and the newest obsession: [livejournal.com profile] letter_love

And about Best Souvenir. I'm so tempted to forget my no-WIPs rule and dive into it. *pouts*
lynnenne: (bright angel by bittersweet_art)

[personal profile] lynnenne 2006-03-05 09:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I love responding to your questions, because you always say such nice things about my writing. :) *hearts you*

whenever I think about saying something really deep about the characters it feels all weighty like it should have...a more expensive style

I think with "The Confessional," you did a good job of saying something about the characters, without veering off into experimental prose. The narrative was true to Faith's voice throughout, and it also told us something *about* her, and about Angel. So you do have that skill.

Besides, there's nothing wrong with trying on new styles. You're *really* good at it, so why not? Personally I wish I could sound more original. *g*
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 11:30 pm (UTC)(link)
As in fic? No. Sometimes I post things that haven't been beta'ed, but I go over every fic at least 4 or 5 times. But I do that with every single thing I write; to me it's just part of what writing IS.
my_daroga: Mucha's "Dance" (Default)

[personal profile] my_daroga 2006-03-05 11:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I wish it was more like that for me, actually. It'd probably help.
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-05 11:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I like these posts. Lovely chances to blither about ourselves. :)

Yeah, exactly. As someone who's kinda shy about talking about herself unless she gets at least a little invitation...well, I wanna give a lotta invitation!

For me, poetry is the fastest way to an intellectual high.

This is so bizarre to me. I take weeks to write a single poem. And can hammer out a 80,000 word fic I'm pretty pleased with in the same amount of time.

For stories, I like unsettling myself with strange challenges

This is such a cool approach. All my shorter stories have been the same way, me saying: hey, wonder if I can do this. The long shippy fics I used to write and fics like Best Souvenir don't have that aspect to them at all.

I wrote post-NFA Spuffy because I needed to know if it was possible. (Still not sure.) (The Bangel is taking so long because I don't think it's possible, but damned if I can't sell it to my readers!)

Heh. One day I'm going to write post NFA Spuffy to see if it's possible. And I don't care if you don't think the B/A is possible; sell it to meeee! ;o)

As for style, at present I'm figuring out what I want out of my signature "voice", and aiming to hone it. macha3 said recently, "stulti's writing style in both pieces careens along with poorly-suppressed glee,"

I saw that somewhere and I completely agree. There's a sense of fun in your writing, a cleverness and a sharpness and a...it reminds me of someone(thing), but I can't quite think what.

I wish I had a "signature voice." I really don't. I can work in different styles (or try to) but the only voice that naturally comes out would be what you got if you took Best Souvenir and removed all the parts where it slips into free indirect Buffy voice: kind of dull.

Otoh, there are stories I've read and failed to feed because they're too good, or rather, they provoked too complex a reaction. I feel like I should take time with fb for those, give a gift to the author,

I take time with those, but not as a gift to the author. If I enjoyed the story and was impressed by it, I consider my fb like a "gift". But if I'm blown away by it, overwhelmed by it, truly touched by it, I use my fb as a vehicle to figure out how the story worked, why it worked on me, how it fits together, what it's doing. I do that with everything I read that really affects me in some way; I figure, why not let the author take a peek? And I truly believe that kind of analysis has helped me to become a better writer.

The disclaiming is annoying; I should stop.

I'd have to agree. Not because it's annoying (I don't find it so) so much as because I've noticed when you've done it that it's untrue or unnecessary. As you say. So it makes you seem either disingenuous or possessed of a low self-esteem, and while I suppose it's possible you might be both, from what I know of you you're neither.

ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-06 12:07 am (UTC)(link)
Hee, mutual complimentage! I can't really help fangirling the writers I love.
ext_7189: (Default)

Re: Why I am a very 'me!me!ME!' author.

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-06 12:15 am (UTC)(link)
But, frankly, I write until *I* enjoy the results. Selfish? Really? I don't think anyone can enjoy anything if its author doesn't really like it first.

This isn't selfish, imo. As you say, it'd be difficult to enjoy something if the author didn't enjoy it just a little as well. Also, writing is a form of communication, imo. Writing what one wants is very much along the say lines as saying what one thinks, to me: it's very important if we're ever going to get anything real and true communicated anywhere. If that makes sense.

And then there's the contradiction that is me: I LOVE writing for other people.

Ironic, but perhaps not a contradiction. If you love doing it, it's for yourself in some part too...As long as you enjoy it, I think the end result is something of value (heh, to at least one person...but almost always more!)

And about Best Souvenir. I'm so tempted to forget my no-WIPs rule and dive into it. *pouts*

I don't recommend that you do so. The updates come very slowly. But thanks for being interested!
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-06 12:16 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, some day I will leave proper fb, which will be much more detailed :o) In the meantime, I like your icon.
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-06 12:24 am (UTC)(link)
I might be totally making crap up here, but I think one factor that might affect our differences there is the fact that I write a lot of drabbles.

This does make a lot of sense...but part of the reason I just can't write drabbles is every idea I have is really big and involved, and it would kill me to chop it down to 100 words. Though if I did that enough, I might start getting short bursts of ideas.

I do the same with academic papers.

Ha! What I did with paper is save them until the night before so I couldn't get fed up on them and give up. Which resulted in them still not being as revised as they should be when I handed them in!

while I do think is somewhat affected by writing skill) I think is a lot to do with the fact that a) I write mostly gen, whereas most people look for shippy and b) I really just don't put myself out there very much.

I actually think that in your case it has very little to do with writing skill, and much more to do with a and b.

Totally random FYI: I don't know if it's just my screen, but are you noticing that on your new paid-account journal pages, icons aren't visible?

It was actually like that before [livejournal.com profile] romanyg gave me the paid time. I was trying to set up something like my format now--where I have the one icon to the right, with no other icons visible on the "recent entry" page, but with all of them visible when you click on the "friends" page or click to read people's comments. I just don't think that was possible in the format I had, and I was about to change it when romanyg gifted me. Omg yay! /rambling and squee
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-06 12:48 am (UTC)(link)
All I really want to know is how people can debate about spelling, and what "fan in meatspace" means!

Thanks for that list and for the links...I looked over the symposium and the newbie guide a couple of times, but they have a billion different things about a billion different stuff, when I just wanted a kind of broad overview of main arguments--[livejournal.com profile] cathexys's list looks fabulous, thanks.

And yeah, I generally go by the rule of talking about what I want. But...well, for instance, when I first got into Buffy fandom, I wanted to ask the "why people slash" question...I wasn't looking for debate, or for opinions; I was just curious. I wouldn't've minded had discussion or debates or even war had broken out on my journal (still don't care, and it wouldn't have, then, because I had a 5 person flist), but I could've been stepping into a potential landmine when all I wanted was a simple answer. Again, don't mind the landmine, but what's the point when I can just go read the same discussion archived somewhere else? When I know enough about it to form an opinion about it, that's when I'd prefer to step into the thick of it, because then I feel like I can join in the discussion. I don't worry about getting wanked, or people disagreeing with me, or me bringing up a topic that everyone else just finds annoying--but I do want to be as informed as possible when I discuss things.

Isn't the visual thesaurus so cool? I got it for Xmas. And that kind of thing for fandom would be the awesomest thing ever. If I knew the first thing about how to make one, I'd do it myself, or beat you over the head until we can do it together. Oh well! ;o)

The form the words take and what the words are are inextricably linked in my mind. They are a complete, um, concept thing! :D I am trying to explain it but it is a bit like trying to explain how you think to another person.

I feel like I do know what you mean, because for me, this seems to be how writing should be. And when you look at great literature that uses experimental form, my reaction has always been: this form is necessary to the content. They're symbiotic, can't live without eachother, one wouldn't happen without the other, two sides of the same coin. And yet, inspiration for content and form seem to spring from separate parts in my mind and spend a long time butting heads before they get churned out as one thing on the paper. I would hope that someone reading would say "this form is inextricably linked to the content", but that's not how it comes to me in my head.
rahirah: (Default)

[personal profile] rahirah 2006-03-06 02:14 am (UTC)(link)
I'm pretty much a type 1 writer. I want to be able to understand what type 2 writers do and how they do it. I want to be able to do it myself if I have to. But for me, all of the stylistic stuff is a means to an end, and that end is telling a better type 1 story. I write because ever since I was a little girl, I've had characters doing things in the back of my head--living their lives, having adventures--and I want to tell people about it. (I was much the same when I was focusing on art rather than writing; I have always been an illustrator, not an abstract artist. Either way, my goal is always to tell a story.)

It's probably worth noting that unlike the majority of fanfic writers I know, I usually stick to a single fictional continuity: 99% of my solo BtVS work exists in the same fannish 'verse. (The one story of any significance I've written outside my main 'verse was the first BtVS fic I wrote, and it retrospect it's obviously rehearsing many of the themes and plot devices I ended up exploring in much greater detail within the Barbverse proper.) Within that continuity I've written everything from drabbles to novels, comedy to angst. While I tie canon back into it wherever it's expeditious to do so, once past a certain tipping point, the 'verse becomes self-sustaining, with new storylines generating out of the consequences of old ones.

I appreciate type 2 stories for their artistry, but I very rarely have an urge to write them. On the rare occasions that I do write type 2 stories, they are the stories most likely NOT to be a part of the 'verse I've created. They're usually drabbles or ficlets, and they're usually a reflection on some aspect of canon or the canon characters, and I regard them as something in the nature of experiments which, if successful, I may apply to the stories and characters I care about.

If I write some off-the-cuff short-short to cheer myself up, I don't expect it to be a masterpiece. Even for more serious stories, I consider LJ posts to be first drafts of sorts. But even indulgence fics have to have a point of some kind, preferably one I haven't made before, and I ALWAYS expect what I write to live up to certain minimum standards of craft. Even the shortest, sloppiest ficlets get revised and polished before I put them up on my website. If it's more than a couple thousand words, I'll have it beta'd, too.

Some of the best things I've ever written have been short-shorts. Length is no predictor of quality, I think; there are some ideas that don't need more than a thousand words to express. It's not the length that lets me know how good a story is, it's something about the way it feels inside my head. Sometimes I know even before I start that this will be a story that clicks on all levels (the Disneyland story was like that; it sprang full-blown from my brow like a Athena) and sometimes it takes awhile ("Follow the Yellow Brick Road" was like that; I started it on a whim with no idea of where it was going, but after a couple of installments I realized that whoa, I had something here.) Sometimes a story I'm sure is crappy when I write it comes off much better in retrospect ("Mightier Than The Sword" is like that) and sometimes a story that seems very significant and wonderful in my head doesn't turn out quite so well on paper ("Lesser of Two Evils" is one of those; I'm not quite sure I succeeded with that one.)

I've got a fairly snippy critical voice in the back of my skull informing me when I'm being sloppy or self-indulgent, and though I sometimes ignore it, I always know it's there. I know that sometimes the quick-fix fics will get more fb than the stuff I sweat over, but hey, other people like indulgences too, so it doesn't bother me particularly. I absolutely don't expect people to cut me slack for non-beta'd fic--in fact, I want them to point out problems, so I can fix them.
rahirah: (Default)

[personal profile] rahirah 2006-03-06 02:44 am (UTC)(link)
ETA: There's another reason I write, and it has to do with wanting to explore/explain Big Cool Ideas. My S/B series isn't just about Spike and Buffy, it's also about vampires, and souls, and the origins of Slayer power, and the Balance.

[identity profile] stultiloquentia.livejournal.com 2006-03-06 07:07 am (UTC)(link)
the only voice that naturally comes out would be what you got if you took Best Souvenir and removed all the parts where it slips into free indirect Buffy voice: kind of dull.

Vehement disagreement, here. Your everyday journaling voice is anything but dull. It's wry but revealing, perfectly calculated to engage without intimidating, with frequent flashes of laugh-out-loud wit.

[The disclaiming] makes you seem either disingenuous or possessed of a low self-esteem, and while I suppose it's possible you might be both, from what I know of you you're neither.

No, not low self-esteem! Astronomical standards. As if I have to apologize for being lazy and releasing something that's less than what I can do. But I always hate it when other writers tell you what to expect or how to respond ("Concrit welcome/unwelcome!" excepted) or imply that they need a pat on the head. My only excuse is that I usually post when I'm dead tired, and forget to edit those parts of the monologue that need to stay internal. :P

[identity profile] dodyskin.livejournal.com 2006-03-06 10:16 am (UTC)(link)
Ooh. Component! Very pretty. It handles comment thread better than Flexible Squares.

Well, there's the eternal phonetic rendering vs logic and sanity (can you tell which side I fall on :D ) debate about Spike's dialogue. Some people are completely besotted with writing Spike's dialogue so he tawk loike this, luv. 'M goin' to be comin' roun' t' moun'ai' whe' Ai cummmmmmms and some people are rather into Spike, the English person, speaking English. It's a shocker, I know.

HP fandom can war about spelling like no one else (mostly British spelling vs American spelling, validity and authenticity... just search the Snitch for "Britpicking" but also rejection from restricted archives/newletters/sites due to spelling, the etiquette of pointing out typos, the list is very interdependent (and not at all comprehensive, I just got bored of typing. Am I in parentheses IN parentheses now? (This is a new low. ;) )) ).

Ummm, fans in meatspace (http://qowf.livejournal.com/328709.html). Ys.

There are no simple answers in fandom. There are usually as many answers as there are fans. And there are a lot of fans. :)

I forgot what we were meant to be talking about. Um. Words and the way we say them. Or, thoughts and experiences and the way we express them? A sad English song is slow; it maybe tumbles down a minor key; it's quiet, turned in like a person hugging themselves and biting their bottom lip. There might be a single long keening burst of grief. A more extroverted person from Europe might wail or beat their breast or curse the world with a swelling instrumental but a sad English song is muted. And so the two things are linked?

I am such a ponce. :P

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/ 2006-03-06 11:20 am (UTC)(link)
Came by way of the Herald

There are about as many different reasons why people write as there are stories. The human mind is vast in its ability to imagine and the drive to create is ingrained in our biology. Personally I write because the story demands to be told. Something inside of me needs to be put on the page. And I'm a perfectionist so nothing I do is ever unbetaed. By the time I post it's been looked over at least a dozen times by at least two people. And yet, it's still just an exercise in having fun and a cathartic way of expressing myself in words.

I write from the heart, not the mind. The brain work comes later with edit after edit after edit. But there is nothing to edit if I haven't laid the groundwork of the heart of the story. I approach every fic the same way.

I'm very well known for those one-offs you talk about. I don't consider them any less serious because the story is told in one short go, rather than several chapters. A story may fit better in a shorter venture then if it had been dragged out for longer than it was warranted. Each story is unique, long or short.

I approach fb much like I approach the world. I expect nothing and then I'm pleasantly surprised when I get something good and then thrilled when something I've done is loved by others.

But I also want to discuss this: Which is why, I think, there's so much confusion/contention surrounding the term "crack!fic".

First question: how does the technically brilliant B/F prison fic become crack!fic for you? The way you describe it seems perfectly in line with #2, so why would you call it crack!fic? Just because you don't think the premise is appropriate for the characters that are being used? That is simply a subjective personal opinion and may not apply to someone else. Second, intent and speed have nothing to do with quality, worth, etc. Mozart wrote some of his symphonies while sitting in bars in between beers. Millions of people every year sit down and write crap despite having the best intentions and trying desperately to write the next 'great American novel.' Intent has nothing to do with ability, and neither does the so-called 'seriousness' of the work. All it has to do with is how pretentious the author can be.

So why is there so much confusion and contention surrounding this term? Because of the way it is being used. I am just sick of people using this term to deride something with only a subjective basis and then state their judgments as fact. Stating it as a fact doesn't make it so.

The term used to be a compliment. "This fic is so my crack!fic because I want more of it like right freaking now!" It's sad that now we can add crack!fic onto the list of derogatory terms. It’s now used to disparage and belittle. And though some deem that acceptable, others very loudly do not!

When derogatory terms are applied to people or their work, you will get opposition and contention.

Think of other derogatory terms. Used on oneself it is often in lieu of a joke or badge of honor. Anyone watch Def Comedy Jam? But used by someone else to belittle or judge or disparage such as: “Some crack!fic, I honestly don't understand why people write.” And people are bound to get testy. Use it for your own work, go right on ahead. But use it to describe someone else’s work and put them down because of it, and you (general) are bound to step on toes.

And whether you intended for your crack!fic part of the post to come across this way or not, it sounds as if what you deem crack!fic is less worthy or has less of a reason to exist. There seems to be a trend in the fandom lately of devaluing certain types of fics with this term. This is really unnecessary. We’re all just here because we love our long gone shows and have fun playing with the characters. Everything else is just icing.
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-06 06:42 pm (UTC)(link)
and so we're writing our fic to resemble the format of the TV series.

I think you're right!

You're a Buffy/Angel shipper, I think, aren't you? I envy y'all so much

I am! And yeah, I know what you mean. I shipped a ship that didn't quite make it to canon in another fandom, and while it was fun to play with them through fic, I always wished there were a couple more moments of them in canon.

Page 3 of 5