Let's talk about authorial intent.

[lettered]

I've got questions about authorial intent...



I write two types of fanfic, and each fulfills a need of mine. They are:

1. The fic that focuses on story, and that I write
-for fun.
-for escape.
-because it poured out of me.
-because something could've been better in canon and I wanted to fix it.
-because something was missing in canon and I wanted to fill it in.
-because canon was perfect, and I just wanted more.
-because I wanted to see what happened after the end.
-and come up with Best Souvenir, a shippy, plotty, epic, with a style that does not call attention to itself.

2. The fic that focuses on form, and that I write
-for intellectual stimulation.
-to become a better writer.
-to experiment with style and techniques through a medium in which I feel less disappointed about messing up (as opposed to original fiction).
-to express how I feel about canon.
-to express insights on theme, motivation, fractals, and interrelationships between characters in canon
-and come up with Five Ways NFA Probably Didn't End, a non-linear, technically experimental, containing dense language, and generally shorter fic.

For me, the difference between these two types of fics is very clear-cut. I do want those of type #1 to be the best they can be--I get them beta'ed by a wonderful gal who beats me over the head when I need it, and work hard to make the players interesting and in character. And I do want those of type #2 to be fun, to give me more of canon, to show things that could've happened.

But the difference is the intent. I set out writing Best Souvenir (type #1) because I wanted to see what would've happened if post "Chosen" Buffy met Angel. I set out writing Blood Types (type #2) because I wanted to see how a theme could illuminate Angel and his interrelationship with others through metaphor. I set out writing type #1 because I want a good story. I set out writing type #2 because I want good writing and thinky thoughts. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but how I approach them is different.

I've read some wonderful fics that my guess is are type #1, and the same for #2. I enjoy both equally, though they push really, really different buttons. But most of the great fic I see seems to be a combination of both: good stories, with interesting scenes that give me more of what could've happened in canon, expanding on characters I love and making me feel good having more of them, but also--finding new ways to use words, new ways to express things, tweaking the "rules" a bit and experimenting.

Then there are fics that are neither, and we call those crack!fics. Some crack!fic, I honestly don't understand why people write. But some crack!fic has shades of type #1--it's fun, entertaing, escapist, but the material extended and filled in and played with is fandom, not canon. The intent there, of course, is not to tell a good story, but to tell a good joke. And some fics we call crack have shades of type #2--Angel may be a crack!h0r and Spike may be a wealthy orphan monk--but it's technically brilliant: a unique use of second person, lyric language that needs to be published, omg, and thoughtful and insightful, wow. And while the premise is ridiculous, the intent is not a joke, but a good story.

(Which is why, I think, there's so much confusion/contention surrounding the term "crack!fic". There's a little blurring, between the latter kind of crack!fic and the former, and do you as an author think about which you're setting out to do when you start? And sometimes there's a blur between the latter and what we'd call "serious" fic--do you know when you're writing Buffy!prisongaurd/Faith!convict that it's crack, or is it not crack for you because you bring in real character traits of both Buffy and Faith to the table, and at which point did it become serious for you as opposed to crack? And how did your approach to it change?)

I'm also interested in the intent behind some of the one-shots written in only a couple hours, for requests, or on a whim, just to get the idea off their heads. A bunch of not-so-great fic authors write this as their standard fare, but I've seen splendid fic authors do it, and I'm wondering what their intent is. Or rather, I know what the intent is: to have fun, to er, shoot off, in a way, just to get the idea off their heads (or that thing off their faces. You know, that thing? Has no one else ever noticed the thing?) But what I'm wondering about is the approach; do the--as I mentioned, some of them really fantastic--authors who do this know when they sit down to write that such and such piece is just going to be a fly-by, a by-blow, a blow-off, an off-shoot (how long can I keep that up, huh?) Do they know it's not going to be a masterpiece? And if they do, do they still expect it to be good? Do they want people to enjoy it and leave them fb? Do they think about that when they're writing? And when they sit down to write something really serious and really important to them, do they actually sit down to write with a different attitude?

What I want to know, I guess, is: what's your intent when you sit down to write a fic? Do you have very different intents for different types of fics? Do you want to write a masterpiece every time you start out to write a piece? Or do you just plan on trying your very best every time? Or do you start out knowing it's just going to be a little doodle in your sketch pad you might show off a bit? At what point do you know that doodle might become a masterpiece, and then how does your attitude toward writing it change?

Also: what about your expectations of fb in respect to your intent? If you plan to try really hard, write as close as you personally can get to a masterpiece, do you expect/want more fb? If you only spend a couple hours or days on a fic that you started on a whim, and don't get a beta for it, are you disappointed when there isn't fb? Are you disappointed when the whim-doodle (that should be a word) fics get more fb than the ones you tried to make perfect as possible?

And how do you delineate the difference to your readers? Do you warn them in your A/N that hey, you didn't get this beta'ed? Or hey, I worked my ass off on this and I think it's the best thing I've ever done? And do you expect people to respond accordingly?


Anybody got an opinion on this type of thing?

*puts on tea* *gets you a cozie*

Comments

[femmenerd.livejournal.com]

I'm such a cheater on my work by replying to this, and such a cheater on this by giving a short answer.

I mostly write short fic. It's a thing. I have written one plotty, long story in a direct, serial narration, and a couple of other more alternative forms of multi-part fic. But mostly I write short, character-driven fics.

And really, that's the main motivation that I find in my fic writing. It's all about character. All the same, I have several "verses" that exist in my brain and multiple fics will be part of that.

But even as I say that, I also know that the form that I most often take in these character explorations is to integrate whatever idea I have about a character or character relationship and express it through a specific theme. My fics tend to have omg!significant opening and closing lines as a result.

And pretty much all of my fic is about playing with words. I can't help it.

Sometimes I get down on myself for not writing longer, plottier fic but I also know that writing short stories with an actual structure is a different gift altogether.

As for FB, I think that I have both cynical and non-cynical takes on the subject. I am well aware that if I write popular ships (or kinks) the fic is more likely to be read (and responded to). OTOH, I find that when I do spend that extra time, the quality of the individual FBs tend to reflect that fact, regardless of pairing/subject.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I'm such a cheater on my work by replying to this, and such a cheater on this by giving a short answer.

El Jay is cheating life. Yay!

the form that I most often take in these character explorations is to integrate whatever idea I have about a character or character relationship and express it through a specific theme.

Character is my driving force, too. But in a long plotty fic I write for the story, it's about wanting to get inside the character to see what they're going to do. If I want to reflect on the character, or express what I think about them, I do it more in the way you describe--a short fic with a theme that expresses those ideas. I guess for me, it's kind of the difference between being with the character OR thinking about the character. But in your fics, I feel both. Which is in the end, what I think I prefer to read (interesting that I don't really write what I prefer, eh?)

My fics tend to have omg!significant opening and closing lines as a result....And pretty much all of my fic is about playing with words. I can't help it.

And these are big reasons I love the ones I've read so far :o)

Sometimes I get down on myself for not writing longer, plottier fic but I also know that writing short stories with an actual structure is a different gift altogether.

Yeah. There's is NOTHING better about long plotty fics that short thematic stories. I feel like I can say this because I can write a long plotty fic at the drop of a hat, when I know most people find it difficult. But a tight short story is exceedingly difficult for me.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

I don't split them up consciously but I know what you mean. Take my current epic, the Paul/Jack fic. I'm writing it slowly, revising it constantly, posting it at long intervals when I'm happy with it.

I had the idea, it burst in on me, consumed my brain utterly, and it's emerging slowly.

Other times I can get an idea at random, drop everything, race over to the computer (if I'm not already there), hammer it out in ten minutes or so, scan it over for typos, post it and heave a relieved sigh because not writing ones like that is like holding in a sneeze.

Sneeze fics. Heh. I like it :-)

I don't warn readers except obliquely; I'll maybe scatter around the odd 'just dashed this off'. But after three years I think most people are used to the way I write and if it bothers them they'd have stopped reading by now ::shrugs::

Part of it is that when I arrived on LJ - and this is just from my perspective, others may see it differently - LJ wasn't the only place you posted. In fact, LJ was where you posted drafts, got comments that allowed you to polish them up and THEN you posted to lists/archives/BoB, TWoP...

LJ was for the impulses, the snippets, the fragments. It was a private space, a behind the scenes place.

And now it's all changed and for me, at least, LJ is all there is but old habits... I'm used to using my LJ to post my fics in all shapes and sizes, all stages of developement.

[dodyskin.livejournal.com]

LJ was for the impulses, the snippets, the fragments. It was a private space, a behind the scenes place.

There has been a shift, I think. I'm sure LJ used to be more of a *journal* type place. It was a lot more common to see the same piece posted a couple of times, after comments and revision, wasn't it? Or it this just my imagination? I could be afflicted with the back-in-the-days, here.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Sneeze fics.

I like it too! See, these kinds of fics really interest me, because when a random idea pops into my head and I feel the need to drop everything and race over to the computer, what comes out is the first 10,000 words of a 200,000 word epic. Ideas for short fics don't burst upon me like that; they're carefully constructed in my head...so I'm really interested in writers who have a different process, especially because I'd like to be able to write short fics more easily. (And may I say, btw, that you do it so well. I'm always amazed by the quantity of fics you produce and how they are so consistently of quality, too. As someone who barely churns out a fic a month, it's continually boggling. :o)

Part of it is that when I arrived on LJ - and this is just from my perspective, others may see it differently - LJ wasn't the only place you posted. In fact, LJ was where you posted drafts, got comments that allowed you to polish them up and THEN you posted to lists/archives/BoB, TWoP...

I've wondered about that--lj as rough draft and archives, etc as "final copy," so to speak. For one thing, I see less extremely short fic on archives, and I've always wondered whether that was because people somehow think less of extremely short fiction. Understandable in the case of a sneeze fic, though some writers' sneeze fics are delectable, but I've read some drabbles and ficlets that are just amazing, knock me dead writing, that I just don't see in archives anywhere. So is there some kind of perception that extremely short fiction is ... more raw, somehow, because it took less time? It doesn't make sense to me, because, as I say, some drabbles and ficlets are phenomenal.

LJ was for the impulses, the snippets, the fragments. It was a private space, a behind the scenes place.

I prefer it as such. I had a recent conversation with someone who pointed out that once a fic's posted, it should be done. I can see the logic of that on something like an archive, but as someone who rarely finishes anything, I like the idea of fics being on my lj so I can eternally tinker with them.

[hannasus.livejournal.com]

Almost every fic I write, I write with the same intent: to get an idea that's been plaguing me out of my head, to write something that makes me feel good, to write something that I can be proud of, to become a better writer in the process. Sometimes the idea that's been plaguing me is a complex plot, and sometimes it's just a scene or even a single line that eventually grows into something more. Sometimes the intent is to write something very canon--very episodic and straightforward, blending plot, humor and drama in the same proportions that the show does. Other times I'm feeling experimental, and I've got a hankering to play with styles and techniques to evoke sensations and moods that you wouldn't find on the show.

But no matter the length, or the style, or the ambitiousness or the fic, I always approach my writing the same way: I try to write a masterpiece every time. It never turns out that way, but I always keep that as my goal--to write that particular piece the best I can and to become a better writer in the process. Sometimes that means working on it for weeks (or months), and sometimes, every once in a while, something comes together in just a few days, and it feels right, and, with my beta's approval, I release it into the wild. I never post anything that hasn't been revised at least two or three (or four, or ten) times, no matter how short it is or how spontaneously it started. What I consider the best fic I ever wrote started off as a single sentence that I wrote down one afternoon. The rest followed over the next couple of hours, and while I worked on fine tuning it for a few days after that, the bulk of it was created in that one brief afternoon.

I look at everything I write as an exercise of sorts--a stepping stone on the path to becoming a better writing. I never write anything that doesn't stretch my abilities to some extent, doesn't challenge me, and doesn't allow me exercise new muscles. My ultimate goal in all of this is to get better at it. Which is why concrit is such a precious gift when I receive it.

Feedback is a wonderful thing that fills the soul with happiness and inspires the writer to keep writing. But it can also be a poison, if there's too little, or if something you don't think is worthy gets more attention than something you think is precious. I try to enjoy it and appreciate it when it's offered to me, but not to take it too personally. Readers are an unpredictable, whimsical bunch, and they're not necessarily going to love everything that I love. I try to remember that that's okay, and not to let it bother me if something doesn't get the kind of feedback I'd hoped. I don't like all of the fics that people in fandom like to read, so why should they like all the fics that I like to write?

I love feedback, but recs actually mean a lot more to me. It's lovely if twenty people read my fic and take a few minutes to tell me they enjoyed it. But if one person was touched by it deeply enough to recommend it, it makes me feel like I've really accomplished something. I write primarily for myself, but when I know that something I've written has inspired someone else or really made them feel something, it's very special. It makes me feel like maybe, just maybe, I might not be so bad at this writing stuff after all.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I try to write a masterpiece every time. It never turns out that way, but I always keep that as my goal--to write that particular piece the best I can and to become a better writer in the process.

I really admire that--and the fact that you always revise. While I've read some excellent whim-doodle fics, there's been many a times I wished the writer had worked just a little harder on it.

The thing with me is, I always want to make a thing the best that it can be, but sometimes the thing I start out with isn't the best that it could be...if that makes sense. For instance, Best Souvenir, the long plotty epic I talked about above--I don't sit down to it and think "ok, masterpiece time." I write what comes into my head, and have fun with it, and what comes out isn't earth shattering, but fairly decent. Then I do everything possible to make that result as good as it can be--get it beta'ed, reread each chapter about 5 times, etc--but it's not as good as I can be. When I sit down and try to be as good as I can be, I think "ok masterpiece", and each word comes out extremely slowly, and ...it's not fun.

I never write anything that doesn't stretch my abilities to some extent, doesn't challenge me, and doesn't allow me exercise new muscles.

Again, really admire you for that. Like I say above, I only challenge myself about...half the time.

Feedback is a wonderful thing that fills the soul with happiness and inspires the writer to keep writing.

This should be ... like a staple. In the bio section of every single fic-writers' and readers' journals. :o)

I don't like all of the fics that people in fandom like to read, so why should they like all the fics that I like to write?

Again, well worded. This is exactly the view I try to take. Sometimes, I'm an old, bitter bitch in my head about it, and what I tell myself is: dude, so many people like crap, of course they can't see how excellent my stuff is...but hey, it makes me feel...more magnanimous towards everyone and less grouchy about fb (especially in the old days before Buffyverse when I thought I didn't get enough fb ;o), so I guess as bitchy as it is it's constructive in a way, too.

But if one person was touched by it deeply enough to recommend it, it makes me feel like I've really accomplished something.

I know exactly what you mean...and how thrilling is it to see your name is someone else's journal? I just love that.

I might not be so bad at this writing stuff after all.

I've only read one fic by you so far, but it was fabulous. It's stuck with me, and will for a long, long time. So, I think you're right. :o)

[gloss]

Oh, bless you for posting this - I've been having Thinky Thoughts about different kinds of stories and why I do them and...

I'll be back. Yay, writing talk!

[gloss]

Basically, from *my* perspective, I call false dichotomy between #1 and #2. Every single thing I write is intended to be an exploration/exploitation of form (or reading expectations; it's the same thing, just different perspectives). Because it's fanfic, it's also *always* an interpretive argument (tm mimesere) of some sort about canon.

What differs from fic to fic is which form I'm playing with. The G/O piece earlier this week, for example, was a way of wrestling with the canon characters and my emotional investment in them. The interpretive argument being made was, in other words, an emotional one. But then there's the BAO porn I posted last night; you might have noticed how I struggled with it (*g*). The formal questions there concerned how to write porn *and* keep the situation and characters (vaguely) related to canon.

Some authors, even stellar ones, are capable of just writing what they want to see - of, in other words, transcribing fantasy. I simply can't do that. I don't know *why* I can't, but it's a fact about my process. So with the BAO I struggled with wanting to produce a fantasy that was still a legit character piece; with the GO, I put my reluctance concerning self-indulgence front and center, making it the skeleton for the story/stories.

Sometimes I have to go easy on myself; my expectations for myself, the things I want to achieve, the scale of my intentions -- they all get out of hand and shut down the writing process itself. That's what happened with the BAO. Faced with the choice between consigning *another* piece to the text files of unposted failures and getting something (anything) accomplished, I had to rejig the intent and ambition.

Also: what about your expectations of fb in respect to your intent?
I always want feedback. I like talking about process, about what I just went through, about...myself. I love hearing about the reading process, and the best feedback from my favorite readers invariably shows me a glimmer of how *my* form and argument were translated into the reading experience.

While I know that, *as* interpretive arguments, my fics sometimes run contrary to 'ship &/or fanonical conventions, I still get disappointed when fb is nasty/dismissive and recs are not forthcoming.

Do you want to write a masterpiece every time you start out to write a piece? Or do you just plan on trying your very best every time?
But that's the same thing, isn't it? Or, to answer both: Yes.

And how do you delineate the difference to your readers?
I try to disclaim porn as PWP, but there're always readers who tell me it's not. And I wish I didn't disclaim porn at all, because it's just as legitimate a set of formal questions as anything else.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Basically, from *my* perspective, I call false dichotomy between #1 and #2.

I wasn't trying to set up a dichotomy. For me, they are two very separate things, but they are not mutually exclusive. As I noted, most people seem to do a bit of both when they write.

Faced with the choice between consigning *another* piece to the text files of unposted failures and getting something (anything) accomplished, I had to rejig the intent and ambition.

I never choose to scale down my ambition/intentions unless a deadline is involved. Which is why deadlines make me sick to my stomach, even for something that's supposed to be fun, like fic. What I do do is consign lots of stuff to the text files of languishment, but not of failure. I...have trouble admitting to failure. I never fail...I just never finish anything.

But that's the same thing, isn't it? Or, to answer both: Yes.

I went back and added the second question after the first, because I thought some people would be wary of equating their "best" with an attempt at a masterpiece. Some people think their best could never be a masterpiece--a view which, imo, is exceedingly wrong, but I wanted there to be a choice for everyone to pick from in that set of questions.

[lynnenne]

I don't really have #1 and #2 stories the way you describe. For me it's either crack!fic or it's "serious" fic. The crack!fic, as you say, is mainly about telling a joke. I might take 10 minutes on the story, because it's all building up to a punchline. There was one crack!fic that I worked on for a lot longer than 10 minutes, because it was an experimentation with form, and I wanted to get it right. But in that fic, the form *is* the punchline. (The story was also a ficathon request, so I did some actual, historical research and tried to make the characters into real people, out of respect for the person who made the request.) But mainly I just wanted to see if I could do it.

On the other hand, there are "serious" fics I've done which, on the face of it, aren't that serious. For example, Keaton is Key is a humourous look at Spike during BtVS S5. But even though the tone is light-hearted, I still wanted to say something about his character development. There are things about that story I would change, now: it was one of the first fics I wrote, and I never had it beta'd. But on the whole I think it holds up okay.

As for feedback, I kind of expect my crack!fic to get less feedback than my serious fic. I think that's because I'm not as funny as someone like dovil, so my punchlines don't make people laugh as much as hers do. :)

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I don't really have #1 and #2 stories the way you describe.

I wouldn't've thought so. Menage is a perfect example of a wonderful integration of both. You filled in a scene from canon; it was a pleasure to read; we were there with the characters--but it's also technically brilliant and experimental in style. That's actually what I hope to get at in the shorter, more experimental fics I write, but sometimes fall short of.

There was one crack!fic that I worked on for a lot longer than 10 minutes, because it was an experimentation with form

Can I say again, that was frickin' awesome?

But mainly I just wanted to see if I could do it.

And you did. I think this is the place a lot of my fic comes from--the kind that's a play on form, anyway: I just want to see if I can do it.

Keaton is Key

Bookmarked. I've spread your fic out over time. I figure by the time I finish maybe I'll be ready for rereading? (Though I've read ...ahem that one like 50 times.)

But even though the tone is light-hearted, I still wanted to say something about his character development.

This is something I'm just not sure I can do. "Best Souvenir" (my long shippy fic) is a lighter touch than my shorter, more experimental stuff, but whenever I think about saying something really deep about the characters it feels all weighty like it should have...a more expensive style. I'm just no good at reconciling certain forms with certain kinds of content.

like dovil

Few people make me laugh as much as dovil does.

[semby.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... well, for starters, I don't really see my fics as fitting in distinct types like your Type #1/Type #2. Mine are all pretty short, and not so plotty, but I wouldn't say that I use them as means of using specific forms and experimental writing styles. Well, occasionally, but I've been pretty conscious of those few occasions and I feel like the rest are straight up non-experimental language, just... short.

And my intent varies, I think. I'll have the short bursts of ideas that come out in half an hour, or I'll have "plots" that I can see in my head but take days to get it right. I never expect a masterpiece, but almost always the best that I can do. I sometimes sacrifice my "best" for impatience - like if I can visualize the whole thing but there are certain moments from the middle or end that are really standing out in my head so much that I can hear exactly how I would phrase them, I rush through the rest to get there before I forget. Or if I've been working on a piece for awhile and just can't figure out how to make it better and just want to be done with it.

As far as feedback... hmm. Since most of my stuff is the same length and effort, I don't really expect more from any particular one.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I'll have the short bursts of ideas that come out in half an hour, or I'll have "plots" that I can see in my head but take days to get it right.

This is so interesting to me, because the short bursts of ideas thing never happens to me. All the short fics I've written were ideas that built really slowly in my head, and came out of me really really slowly, and were all about what the story should say and how the story should say it, not like...bits of scenes or anything like some people describe. When I'm writing Best Souvenir, scenes come to me, but they usually only come to me as I'm writing it, and they fit within this long plotty epic thing, you know? It's just interesting how people get ideas in different ways.

I sometimes sacrifice my "best" for impatience

I know exactly what you mean. I started out with all of my shorter pieces with the idea that okay, I'm going to try to make this a masterpiece, but it's such hard work, and so frustrating, that by the time I get around to getting it beta'ed and those final little revisions that would just make it that much better, I can no longer stand it. I just post. I'm usually still pretty proud of what I came up with, but I'm always a little fed up at myself that I didn't work harder or be more patient.

As far as feedback... hmm. Since most of my stuff is the same length and effort, I don't really expect more from any particular one.

I hope this doesn't sound...weird or awkward or anything, but I think you totally deserve more fb. You're such a wonderful writer.

[lostakasha.livejournal.com]

I'm also interested in the intent behind some of the one-shots written in only a couple hours, for requests, or on a whim, just to get the idea off their heads. This is 99.9% of what I write.

Do you want to write a masterpiece every time you start out to write a piece? Fan writing is my happy fun time. My fiction writing style is unnervingly organic, so ideas bleed from me directly to the page.

Any refining comes after the original piece is written. For example, Lamb of God came to me because a childhood prayer kept repeating itself inmy head while I was working. So I stopped working, let it take over, and wrote LOG in less than 30 minutes. But I spent the 8 hours that followed the initial burst to do my historical research, and then refined the original to better suit my findings.

Also, Washer at the Ford (http://lostakasha.livejournal.com/12603.html) was a down-and dirty, channelled fic, but I spent hours after writing it to go into Celtic myth and get my finer points in line.

Speed isn't necessarily a good thing, and that's not what motivates me -- but I usually only write when a story enslaves me. Then, I'm it's bitch until it reaches the page. I don't handle interruption well, so the faster I work, the better all around.

I was going to say that I don't storyboard my fic, but I realize in writing this that I do -- the inital effort, that surge to the page from start to finish is the storyboard. When that's done then I go back and edit.

When a story feels like construction work to me I usually abandon it. Not because I don't want to work on my craft and become a better writer, but because if it feels labored when I'm writing it, it's going to be labored when you read it. Case in point: Boutique (http://lostakasha.livejournal.com/6154.html), one of only a handful of things I've written for ficathons. From my POV it's bland, totally lacking in distinction, fine for Comp 101 but overall a waste of time better spent. (Wow, I am spiritual kin to Simon Cowell. Maybe that's why I'm not asked to beta. Yikes!) Now I limit my participation in ficathons now to 'write your owns.'

At what point do you know that doodle might become a masterpiece, and then how does your attitude toward writing it change? I never know this because I'm immersed in the process. Only once I put a piece to bed do I get perspective on a story's merits, and then it's always completely subjective.

Are you disappointed when the whim-doodle (that should be a word) fics get more fb than the ones you tried to make perfect as possible? Perfection is also subjective, even from a technical standpoint. We all know from hard experience that slapped-together shit by the hot writer of the hour will get a flood of Harmony Kendallesque oohs and aahs. True in RL, true in fandom. So...no.

Thanks for making me think these thoughts! Now me sleepy.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

My fiction writing style is unnervingly organic, so ideas bleed from me directly to the page.

Any refining comes after the original piece is written.

This is so interesting to me...I was just telling someone else that I always want my fic to be the best it can be, but sometimes that's only a factor in the revision process. In my long plotty ship fic (the type 1 fic), I just write whatever comes out. And what comes out is decent, but nothing...earth shattering. But from there, I try hard to make it clean and respectable and a good read. On the other hand, when I sit down and actually think, "ok, I'm going to try to write something really special now," I sit and think about each and every word; I plan the whole thing ahead of time; I conciously work in theme and symbols and metaphor; it's "construction work". And then I go through the same process of making it clean and respectable, but I feel like the product I have to work with is closer to what I think of when I think of "the best I can do."

What's interesting is that the dichotomy we're dilineating (oh god, look at that alliteration, *belch*), between fics that pour out and fics that feel like construction work, I was once firmly on your side. That is, if I had to WORK to force it out, I'd abandon it because it'd sound forced to me. But last year I wrote an original story that was a serious effort for me, but I had some really weighty things to say and some really interesting things to try, as I do in my short fanfics in Buffyverse, and...it was a watershed moment for me. I loved what I ended up with, but had to fight for every word of it.

Though (at the risk of really, really rambling) that's actually not quite true; these fics that feel like "construction" are actually more half pouring and half constructing. "Five Ways NFA Probably Didn't End" came out in small bursts--a line, a paragraph, might come out in a fervor. Then I'd have to wait and think for hours, sometimes days, about the next word or sentence. It's seriously tough work, but in the end, it works for me. Not all writers are like that, I think--you being a prime example! :o)

And I'm going to get around to reading both the fics you linked, as I haven't read either!

[my_daroga]

I am, at heart, an extremely lazy writer. For the past few years I've only written fic when prompted by something--#1, I guess that'd be. These exist only to serve the purpose of illuminating the thought I have. Of course I try to make them the best they can be, but I don't generally do a 2nd draft. Of course, I don't think I've written more than 2 stories ever that made it to a second draft. That includes school papers, too, I think. I just don't revise unless it's on the fly.

So I'm not the best writer I could be. I get an idea and I want it out because generally (in Phantom fic-world, anyway) no one's done what I'm doing because there aren't a lot of fans like me who write.

I scrape by on my ability to string words together. That is all.

I wish it were different. I have a hard time concentrating.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Whoa, are differences strike again! I concentrate so hard and so thoroughly when I'm interested in something that I...kind of miss a lot. Which, I remembering saying once before, is why I get lost a lot and walk into posts!

And you know, it totally depends on what you want with writing and fic. For me, my idea is adequately expressed until I've revised it to death (sometimes I get impatient and post before I've revised it all I could, but that still only happens after you know, about 3 drafts). But if how it comes out satisfies the need you have to write what you do...why bother with more?

[dodyskin.livejournal.com]

I'm much more likely to actually finish and post something conceived and completed in the same day, but that doesn't mean that that is all I write, just that that is mainly what I share here on LJ.

OK. Hm. Let me think. Fic written totally on impulse. ::searches about:: Race (http://kita0610.livejournal.com/151030.html?thread=3077366#t3077366). That was written in response to a discussion Kita was hosting (the theme was raging at the time) about fanfic and how it is defined (crackfic, AU...sound familiar? :D ). And this (http://dodyskin.livejournal.com/65631.html) was written purely as a part of conversation, a springboard for a chat. These were written as part of my fannish dialogue, so no, I wasn't out to write a masterpiece because I wasn't performing in that sense. They were not a solitary endeavour. And as to feedback, well, yes the point is response, but not necessarily in the form of an LJ comment telling me how great I am, you know? More to join in the fun.

Actually, now I think about it, most of my fic is part of some kind of conversation I'm having with fandom at the time (although not all of it is written on impulse). Phrase and Fable (http://dodyskin.livejournal.com/27835.html#cutid1) is a case in point. Actually, that's a pure indulgence fic. Utterly self-indulgent!

The other thing that I write for is the (very occasional) ficathon. Hmmmm. I think the story I worked hardest on was probably Tace (http://community.livejournal.com/picfor1000/5730.html)? I guess. I seem to remember spending a lot of time thinking about it. Looking at that link, it has a fair number of comments on it, and I remember people recommending it and talking about it at the time. I don't think I wrote it with the fandom response in mind, though admittedly I deliberately wrote it in a hyper-dramatic baroque-aria style, which does often get a big response from fandom. With the particular restrictions of that challenge (A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words, Third Time's The Charm) I thought it was necessary to do that; it wasn't really a comment-whoring, or even dialogue-seeking, decision. This year (for round four) I wrote a much less successful story and I think it got the feedback it merited. I scraped that fic together out of scraps of other things and some really poor-quality padding because I had *no* unifying concept. It really shows. The story is unsatisfying, directionless, and pointless. It doesn't say anything new or interesting about Fred. It's kinda dumb. But then I had all the conversations before I wrote the fic and so that gave me fannish happies instead.

I'm not getting in to the "one shots are inherently less valuable" debate because a) I'm bored of it and b) it makes me feel ouchy.

[gloss]

a hyper-dramatic baroque-aria style
I love this phrase far more than I can possibly express.

which does often get a big response from fandom
Does it? Huh. I tend to think that plainer styles get bigger responses. *takes this to email*

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

I was shocked - shocked, and not a little intimidated - by how good a lot of fan fiction was. I honestly believed fic to be an excuse to write porny scenarios not seen on the show(s) or to do a revisionista thing (Tara shouldn't die!) I was honestly astounded by how good a lot of it was.

And terribly amused by how much of it wasn't.

I'm not a good original plot person. I haven't read a lot supernatural/horror genre, so I'm not the go-to girl for the next apocalyptic catalyst. I'm good with people relating to people, so I'll go down forever as a 'shippy writer, whether it's romantic or no. I wrote "Sunday Morning Coming Down" because I believed the summer of Buffy's death was the one time in canon I could see S/X as a possibility. And it's an S/X love letter to 3 writers and I tried to make it in the style of the S/X stories I first loved. Whenever I see it pimped as "classic" or "old school" Spander, I'm happy.

I wrote "Rodeo" because nashmaveric asked for cowboy fic. I threw in the gay rodeo thing because it seemed the theme least likely - most people would go with ranching. Nothing inherently funny about ranching.

And there comes the funny thing. I've been told by more writing teachers than I can name to stop defaulting to the funny. I've had more witty asides slashed red in edits of essays than I can name. But I didn't love the Buffyverse for the vampires or the music swelling angst or because DB or JM was hot. I loved it for the dialogue - for the funny. The play with words. Things like this - LORNE: "Who's a little curt? Who's a little Curt Jurgens in 'The Enemy Below?'" Hahahahahaha! I know most people didn't even notice that line - or care - but I *love* that. I love the way the Buffyverse twisted words, made references and danced around language archaic and slang.

I've never experimented with 'style' - "Rodeo" is crack!fic; it's Human AU, written for the smut and the idea of 'OMG, how hot would Angel look in black chaps with a red dragon pattern?' and the fact that for once, I could make Xander sound *exactly* like me, without having to pull myself out of his voice (as close as they are at times.)

I'm a dialogue writer. I would probably be a much better screenwriter than a prose one. Make that probably a definitely. I hear characters talk - I love fanfic because Joss has already done the hard stuff (backstory, 'verse, etc) the fun for me is in how close I can approximate those voices. One of the best characterizations I think I've done is in a fic I wrote a in a couple of hours - the Faith/Willow story. I don't know if I'll ever top that Willow POV. And it was fun! But then - it's just two people talking. I'm good at that.

I know I'll most likely never write the moody kind of think pieces I've loved from other writers (you, Lynne, Chrislee, Kita, Yin, etc.) I’m most likely going to write snark-flavored dialogue, hopefully in a Buffyverse vein, and maybe shake it up with a bit of insight at times. But as I look back over at what I've done, I don't believe that, despite the dialogue-heavy nature of most it, that it all sounds the same. The Joyce & Angel fic I wrote, Somewhere Down the Road, doesn't sound like anything else I've written. That one was purely about mood, but incidentally so, since I was really attempting to channel the mood of a song. (Hah! Song fic! With Angel and Joyce!)

Strangely enough, though, my original fiction isn't at all like my fanfic. It's very much in a David Sedaris style. Typically first person, almost *zero* dialogue and carries itself on narrator perception. So I guess my point is...as far as fic goes, I'm married to the idea of aping Joss and Co's flavor of language - it's purely a fan thing, and not something that carries over into how I view or practice my writing writing.

I agree with you on the story v. form thoughts, though, and I'm always amazed by the people who can conceive and execute form. I'd muck it up with a joke. *g*

[dodyskin.livejournal.com]

It would be fun to fic a joke. A joke is a form. A classic joke has a very definite structure that you could totally use as the framework for a fic.

If you were terminally humourless and nerdy yay

[sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com]

Mine is a weird history. *g* I'd never intended to write fanfiction myself, but when AtS ended, tubbyk of the Spike-JM message board "Cold Dead Seed" suggested that we all try to write a fic each, just to cheer ourselves up and to entertain each other. About half a dozen of us volunteered to try. I'd hoped that Spike and Fred would become a romantic couple on AtS, and when that didn't happen in Season 5 I decided to make my fic a sort of spin-off, or imaginary Season 6, in which Fred is resurrected and my 'ship gets to sail. When I'd finished the story, I discovered that I liked the results and decided to write more stories about the version of the 'verse that I'd created. Out of curiosity I entered the stories in some fanfic award contests and won some prizes, and then I posted the stories here on Live Journal, and was surprised and honored to find that I'd picked up several new readers here!

I never make an outline; I just pick out some topics that I'd like the story to hit, and then write a chapter and post it, usually with no idea what will happen in the next chapter until I sit down and make it up as I'm typing it. However, I constantly check to make sure that everything's logical and doesn't contradict what I've written in a previous chapter/story, and that it also fits in with TV episode canon. My stories tend to be long -- I've written two and begun a third, and they usually run up to twenty chapters each. I make them a mix of humor, drama, action, some romance, and some angst, and there are several characters that I find very easy to write dialogue for, and who I enjoy writing (Oz, Spike, Fred, and Illyria, for instance.) I've also taken some seldom- and never- seen canon characters and turned them loose on the pages -- Oz's cousin Jordy and Fred's dad Roger Burkle -- and they are SO much fun to work with! I even got brave and made some recurring original characters, and they've been well-received by readers, too.

I tend to write from a camera's viewpoint more than from inside a character's head. I've also noticed that I don't write a lot of heavy, drawn-out angst; I tend instead to create brief, low-key vignettes within the long stories, and try to make them touching or insightful within that small sub-setting.

[sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com]

Meant to add, another interesting bit I've noticed is that so many fanficcers report that writing relaxes them, and/or they feel a thought or a plot bunny that won't leave them alone until they write it out.

I'm the opposite. I never feel an urge to write, and I can't concentrate or write well unless I'm ALREADY relaxed, and I'm in my quiet bedroom at my quiet computer, and I know that no one's going to bother me for the entire day.

Which explains why there's usually such a long spell of time between posting of chapters. *g*

[lillianmorgan.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your thoughts. I always find them interesting, even if sometimes I don't agree with you.
I have a long and indeterminate fear of WIPs, mainly because I fear and have witnessed first hand how difficult it is to maintain them. Also I have so many ideas that to write chapter based fics for all those ideas would serioulsy and absolutely kill me.
Definitely my favourite type of fic is what you've expressed in # 2, but that tends to be rare (at least in my reading). And so I do tend to see more #1. However, as fic-writing is based on a text that everyone tends to have a good understanding of, as in the shows, (like how it's all going to end) sometimes the wonderful thing about #1 is the insights authors bring into characters, that were there all along in the show, but I never saw them.
When I sit down to write something, it's usually with a purpose that is fanon related. So I wrote my winter_of_wes piece because I wasn't seeing any W/L. I wrote my last seasonal_spuffy because I was reading too many post-NFA stories, so mine was set in Season 6. I wrote my summer_of_spike piece because I was seeing too many battles going on between S/B shippers and S/A shippers, so mine was an attempt to tackle both of those 'ships.
I also like to experiment, which is I guess why I like #2. But I also like to experiment with character too. Writing a range of characters is exciting for me, because it gives me an insight into why they did what they did in canon. So a short off-the-piece thing is something more for me - why did Darla approach Connor is Season 4? what was Faith feeling in Chosen? It also allows me to explore a character, their motives, a scene in canon that I may be able to pick up in a later fic.
or is it not crack for you because you bring in real character traits of both Buffy and Faith to the table, and at which point did it become serious for you as opposed to crack?
I think this is a very good point. Not all supposed 'crack!fic' is bad, there are quite a few that do tend to push the boundaries of experimentation. One of the most popular, and well-written, fics in the fandom last year toobusy2write's Bent Justice, was pretty much what you described. And it was just like crack because as a reader, you couldn't put it down, you were gagging for the next update.
Also: what about your expectations of fb in respect to your intent?
I always have very limited expectations on this, which I guess says more about my personality than anything else. Though it's very hard to predict the way of the fb. One thing I love is to get feedback from someone whose ideas I have thoroughly enjoyed and who has already given me enjoyment from their work. Another thing is when I get a connection from someone, a question or a debate. You know, when someone just writes 'Good job', I guess I wonder what I should have done to get them thinking about the fic.
Though, I guess, if I were to suggest trying to understand it, writing threesome fic does tend to produce the most audiences *g*
I prattled on too long didn't I? Sorry for that!

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your thoughts. I always find them interesting, even if sometimes I don't agree with you.

And thank you back! The world wouldn't be such a great place if everyone agreed with me all the time!

Definitely my favourite type of fic is what you've expressed in # 2,

This is so fascinating. As I said, my shorter fics are much more of a type #2, and quite a few writers start out giving me fb by saying: "I prefer stories with more plot and dialogue without such a focus on style, but..." (then they go on to say nice things. I'm not complaining about my fb here, it's always been awesome!)

sometimes the wonderful thing about #1 is the insights authors bring into characters, that were there all along in the show, but I never saw them.

To me, a type 1 really can give a lot of insights into the character. But what I've noticed in my own writing is that my type 1 fics more often deal with insights into the characters most people will see by just watching the show. They find new ways of causing the themes and attributes we instinctively connect with the characters. But for me, type 2 is really the venue for drawing the connections that I see, but you may not (and vice versa); it's the place for showing something like...how Dawn exploring her identity as the "Key" parallels a woman exploring her sexual identity, how a key and a portal can be a play on ... interlocking sex parts, and...wacky stuff like that.

When I sit down to write something, it's usually with a purpose that is fanon related.

This is really interesting, and something I didn't think to include in my questions about intent. I tend to do the same thing--say hey! No one's writing this or that! And then I go write it. Sometimes, though it deal with theme, instead of timeframe or characters; sometimes it deals with style; sometimes it deals with particular what if questions, etc.

One of the most popular, and well-written, fics in the fandom last year toobusy2write's Bent Justice, was pretty much what you described.

I was sooo thinking of that fic when I was saying that! I didn't mention it explicitly because a. I haven't left fb for it yet (still, omg), and b. I didn't know whether she'd appreciate the label "crack!fic". To me, it's completely crack, because of the concept. But she brings SO much of the characters to the fic, and it's SO well written, it doesn't deserve the negative association crack!fic gets sometimes.

You know, when someone just writes 'Good job', I guess I wonder what I should have done to get them thinking about the fic.

Me too. I always try to point out *why* I liked a fic when I fb.

I prattled on too long didn't I? Sorry for that!

Please don't apologize--I'm extremely interested in your thoughts, because you always have good ones. And...it must be obvious by now that I ramble something fierce, so no worries!

[paynbow.livejournal.com]

Hey! Toddled over here on a rec from su_herald.

When I write...well, it depends. A lot of the time inspiration hits me abd I start writing. Whether that becomes something I'm proud of or 16 pages of snark where Eve gets hit by a semi, well, it depends on my mood (I'm a little proud of the snark *g*). Sometimes I write something because I need to poke fun at the show (Little Pink Pill), sometimes I want to do a character study (The Search for Dead Boy), sometimes I want to write about what happened after the end (Away).

A lot of my Buffy stories take place in Season 6. There are a few reasons for that, but mostly it's that there's so much to play with in that season. There's also so much I wish I could fix.

With the odd exception I write two kinds of fic: humour and general. In the comments department, well, if I get them at all I'm pretty pleased. Genficcers don't tend to get much in the way of feedback, and I came to terms with it long ago. What little I do get is often of questionable quality. Fifty percent of it is people asking for a certain 'ship, the rest is people saying they liked most of it, but the never mention what they think I could imporve on. My means of improving as a writer is to have a couple of honest betas who will smack me if something makes no sense.

I never really expect much in the way of fb. At first I did, because I'd seen so many stories out there that got oodles, and I thought, "hey, I'm a better writer than that...I'll get more!" HA! Now I expect maybe 3-5 reviews for every story I post, depending on length. I have only 3 stories that have revieved more than 15 pieces of fb, and two of them are Spuffy. It doesn't really bother me, although it would be nice to know what people who read my stories thought.

All my fics have A/N's. I always thank my beta or warn that there IS no beta, and I usually mention if I wrote it in 20 minutes while highly caffinated (Whose Your Daddies). I feel it's important to forwarn people *g*

Most of my stories are type 1. I think maybe one or two could possibly be labled a mix of both types, but I wouldn't swear to it. The only writing technique I use that's not "normal" is the whole breaking down the fourth wall thing (there's a fancy theatre term and I can't remember it and I'm embarrased because I'm a theatre student...it's on the tip of my brain). I love to do that, and I do it purely for the comedy. But I'll only do it when I feel like it fits.

The biggest thing for me in stories is characterization. If I'm playing with someone else's toys, I need to play nice. That means not turning Spike into a cry baby or Dawn into solely a petulant child. There's no point in writing fic if you're not going to stay true to character. Then you may as well rename the characters, because they certainly aren't themselves.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Hiya, thanks for contributing your thoughts!

A lot of the time inspiration hits me abd I start writing. Whether that becomes something I'm proud of or 16 pages of snark where Eve gets hit by a semi, well, it depends on my mood

This is so interesting to me, because I'm not like that at all. First of all, I wish I could write 16 pages of snark with Eve getting hit by a semi. And I even like Eve ;o) For me, it's like I'm two completely different people. If I sit down when inspiration hits me, it's going to be a fun plotty long fic. If I toss and turn and plot and connive and stress for days, weeks, possibly month, it's going to be a Serious Endeavor OMG.

Fifty percent of it is people asking for a certain 'ship, the rest is people saying they liked most of it, but the never mention what they think I could imporve on.

Fb asking for a ship (or more of one character or another) is just plain sucky. I always try really hard to give well-rounded fb, because I too always wish for a little more than just "That was good."

I feel it's important to forwarn people

Me too. I'm rather embarrassed by some of my A/N's in the past ... In one fic I posted in another fandom way back when I actually apologized for including the "Other Woman" character from canon in the love triangle--and for treating her nicely and fairly, as canon does--because I knew most of my readers hated her. My writing didn't pander to the crowd but my A/Ns sure did and that's just sad.

The only writing technique I use that's not "normal" is the whole breaking down the fourth wall thing

I don't think type #2 necessarily includes a technique that's not "normal"--I just think it's a different approach; it's approaching the story through the form and the writing itself, as opposed to the plot. Which can often lead to experimental techniques, but not always.

And...I feel a little ignorant, here, what's the fourth wall?

Short because my time's out.

[leni-ba.livejournal.com]

Why I Write.

- Because if I want a fic just how I like it, then I better write it myself.

Here I take an idea I've wanted to see 'in print' since forever, but as close as some fics have come, none of them took away the crave.

- Because I really, really, really want to see how Character A reacts to Character B/Situation X.

- Related to the last, but not exactly the same: Because I want Character A paired with Character B, and I'll tweak canon until I get it!

- Because I want a particular Behind the Scenes story.

- Because I feel like exploring a particular character, normally from a hopefully novel perspective.

- Because I need more fluff/angst/dark/B-A(us)/D-S/etc... in my life.

- Because I get inspiration to write about characters not very known to me. (i.e. Anyone not in the first two seasons of BtVS)

- Of course, all of these reasons can be included under the One Reason: Someone told me to write it - or I found a pretty challenge comm. *G*

Re: Short because my time's out.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Hee! I love these answers.

These are almost all the reasons I've written fanfic in the past, and are the reasons I write and am writing the WIP, Best Souvenir.

Except for that last. I absolutely positively CANNOT write for a ficathon or a challenge or a request and most of all, a deadline. Just writing for the IWRY contest last year drove me nuts.

[cordelianne.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed reading your thoughts on writing fanfic, and it's been fun to read everyone's responses!

I've been a reader of fanfic for a long time now but it's only been very recently that I've actually written some of my own (2 very short fics completed so far). At this point, I'm still developing my skills as a fanfic writer so I tend to focus on actually finishing something that I don't totally hate.

I write my fic because of a fascination with a particular character (currently Xander, although I've also written from Buffy's perspective). I'll start to "hear" that character in my head (but not in a crazy way, I hope!) and slowly a story or idea will form. It normally comes together at 4am and everything just pours out. Afterwards I agonize over every word and phrase.

I love canon, so I work for my characters and story to be believable/possible in canon. Frequently I'll find myself thinking "what issues would A character have to resolve to even consider kissing/liking/respecting B character, and vice versa?" I like writing the areas that didn't get explored in canon.

Of course, the other reason that I write is to continually improve as a writer. I also write scripts with a writing partner so I'm finding that the scriptwriting and the fanfic writing are useful to gain skills for both forms of writing.

Thanks for prompting this discussion!

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Oh, good on you for trying out writing fanfic! I love hearing from people just starting it...I've always been writing it, even before I knew the term "fanfic". When I first got online and discovered that other people did it too, and that more people were being inspired to write it by reading it--it warmed my soul :o)

Frequently I'll find myself thinking "what issues would A character have to resolve to even consider kissing/liking/respecting B character, and vice versa?"

A great question to ask. I feel like a lot of people don't actually ask themselves that--they feel like they know the characters already and know what they would do. And I think a lot of that comes, actually, from interacting in fandom...read a lot of good Xander slash, and you forget Xander's not gay (or at least out of the closet, as some would have it!) in canon. I think it's important--even if you DO want to write a fic in which Xander is gay and already out of the closet--to think about how the canon character got there and how he would proceed. Plus, when I'm asking myself that, and thinking about how the character would get to that point? It feels like I'm watching more of the show in my head.

I also write scripts with a writing partner so I'm finding that the scriptwriting and the fanfic writing are useful to gain skills for both forms of writing.

Oh, cool! What do you write scripts for? For fun? Professional? *is nosy*

And thank *you* for adding your thoughts!

[stultiloquentia.livejournal.com]

I like these posts. Lovely chances to blither about ourselves. :)

What I want to know, I guess, is: what's your intent when you sit down to write a fic?

Gosh, I have so many modes.

For me, poetry is the fastest way to an intellectual high. I can pick a form and a theme and slam it out in two nights, like solving one of the diabolical 3-D wooden puzzles my grandpa used to carve. What a rush. Stories take me waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer.

For stories, I like unsettling myself with strange challenges: I wrote "The Still Point" because I'd never done romance; "Illyria Writes a Poem" because I'd never finished a sestina; I'm writing the Bangelpron because I've never done smut. I also write to see how skillfully I can patch up canonical problem spots such as Cirdan the immortal Elf's grey hair and the Slayer's origin story. I wrote Arwen because I needed to know who she was. I wrote post-NFA Spuffy because I needed to know if it was possible. (Still not sure.) (The Bangel is taking so long because I don't think it's possible, but damned if I can't sell it to my readers!)

As for style, at present I'm figuring out what I want out of my signature "voice", and aiming to hone it. macha3 said recently, "stulti's writing style in both pieces careens along with poorly-suppressed glee," and I liked that. I think it's important to play with different styles and dialects, but for a default I think I want that one: agile, easy, con brio. Work cut out for a lifetime. :)

At what point do you know that doodle might become a masterpiece, and then how does your attitude toward writing it change?

I have pages and pages of "self-indulgent" writing on my hd—lots of Spuffy scenes, but a whole lot of other post-NFA stuff, too, mending Scoobie relationships, making up OCs, sneezing out (hi Jane!:)) odd little character studies. When I prepare something for posting, it has to have a hook. As soon as a hook dawns on me, the file gets shuttled from the Scraps folder to the Stories folder.

Also: what about your expectations of fb in respect to your intent?

Fb, to a large extent, is based on subject matter, not quality. I have few expectations when I post a piece. Otoh, there are stories I've read and failed to feed because they're too good, or rather, they provoked too complex a reaction. I feel like I should take time with fb for those, give a gift to the author, show them that I was paying attention, understood and appreciated what they were trying to say, instead of delivering a one line attagirl. And then time passes and it falls by the wayside, because I'm a terribly busy person. I *must* change this -- get in the habit of giving that attagirl right away, and bookmarking for a longer review if time allows.

And how do you delineate the difference to your readers? Do you warn them in your A/N that hey, you didn't get this beta'ed?

Ha. None of my Jverse stuff has been betaed. Flipping through, I see that most of it gets posted with an, "Oh dear, this is so sloppy, don't read it!" disclaimer and one hand over my face. Following which some people come along and say, "I like this," and then I go back and reread it and say, "Huh. All right, it's not that bad." The disclaiming is annoying; I should stop.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I like these posts. Lovely chances to blither about ourselves. :)

Yeah, exactly. As someone who's kinda shy about talking about herself unless she gets at least a little invitation...well, I wanna give a lotta invitation!

For me, poetry is the fastest way to an intellectual high.

This is so bizarre to me. I take weeks to write a single poem. And can hammer out a 80,000 word fic I'm pretty pleased with in the same amount of time.

For stories, I like unsettling myself with strange challenges

This is such a cool approach. All my shorter stories have been the same way, me saying: hey, wonder if I can do this. The long shippy fics I used to write and fics like Best Souvenir don't have that aspect to them at all.

I wrote post-NFA Spuffy because I needed to know if it was possible. (Still not sure.) (The Bangel is taking so long because I don't think it's possible, but damned if I can't sell it to my readers!)

Heh. One day I'm going to write post NFA Spuffy to see if it's possible. And I don't care if you don't think the B/A is possible; sell it to meeee! ;o)

As for style, at present I'm figuring out what I want out of my signature "voice", and aiming to hone it. macha3 said recently, "stulti's writing style in both pieces careens along with poorly-suppressed glee,"

I saw that somewhere and I completely agree. There's a sense of fun in your writing, a cleverness and a sharpness and a...it reminds me of someone(thing), but I can't quite think what.

I wish I had a "signature voice." I really don't. I can work in different styles (or try to) but the only voice that naturally comes out would be what you got if you took Best Souvenir and removed all the parts where it slips into free indirect Buffy voice: kind of dull.

Otoh, there are stories I've read and failed to feed because they're too good, or rather, they provoked too complex a reaction. I feel like I should take time with fb for those, give a gift to the author,

I take time with those, but not as a gift to the author. If I enjoyed the story and was impressed by it, I consider my fb like a "gift". But if I'm blown away by it, overwhelmed by it, truly touched by it, I use my fb as a vehicle to figure out how the story worked, why it worked on me, how it fits together, what it's doing. I do that with everything I read that really affects me in some way; I figure, why not let the author take a peek? And I truly believe that kind of analysis has helped me to become a better writer.

The disclaiming is annoying; I should stop.

I'd have to agree. Not because it's annoying (I don't find it so) so much as because I've noticed when you've done it that it's untrue or unnecessary. As you say. So it makes you seem either disingenuous or possessed of a low self-esteem, and while I suppose it's possible you might be both, from what I know of you you're neither.

[rahirah]

I'm pretty much a type 1 writer. I want to be able to understand what type 2 writers do and how they do it. I want to be able to do it myself if I have to. But for me, all of the stylistic stuff is a means to an end, and that end is telling a better type 1 story. I write because ever since I was a little girl, I've had characters doing things in the back of my head--living their lives, having adventures--and I want to tell people about it. (I was much the same when I was focusing on art rather than writing; I have always been an illustrator, not an abstract artist. Either way, my goal is always to tell a story.)

It's probably worth noting that unlike the majority of fanfic writers I know, I usually stick to a single fictional continuity: 99% of my solo BtVS work exists in the same fannish 'verse. (The one story of any significance I've written outside my main 'verse was the first BtVS fic I wrote, and it retrospect it's obviously rehearsing many of the themes and plot devices I ended up exploring in much greater detail within the Barbverse proper.) Within that continuity I've written everything from drabbles to novels, comedy to angst. While I tie canon back into it wherever it's expeditious to do so, once past a certain tipping point, the 'verse becomes self-sustaining, with new storylines generating out of the consequences of old ones.

I appreciate type 2 stories for their artistry, but I very rarely have an urge to write them. On the rare occasions that I do write type 2 stories, they are the stories most likely NOT to be a part of the 'verse I've created. They're usually drabbles or ficlets, and they're usually a reflection on some aspect of canon or the canon characters, and I regard them as something in the nature of experiments which, if successful, I may apply to the stories and characters I care about.

If I write some off-the-cuff short-short to cheer myself up, I don't expect it to be a masterpiece. Even for more serious stories, I consider LJ posts to be first drafts of sorts. But even indulgence fics have to have a point of some kind, preferably one I haven't made before, and I ALWAYS expect what I write to live up to certain minimum standards of craft. Even the shortest, sloppiest ficlets get revised and polished before I put them up on my website. If it's more than a couple thousand words, I'll have it beta'd, too.

Some of the best things I've ever written have been short-shorts. Length is no predictor of quality, I think; there are some ideas that don't need more than a thousand words to express. It's not the length that lets me know how good a story is, it's something about the way it feels inside my head. Sometimes I know even before I start that this will be a story that clicks on all levels (the Disneyland story was like that; it sprang full-blown from my brow like a Athena) and sometimes it takes awhile ("Follow the Yellow Brick Road" was like that; I started it on a whim with no idea of where it was going, but after a couple of installments I realized that whoa, I had something here.) Sometimes a story I'm sure is crappy when I write it comes off much better in retrospect ("Mightier Than The Sword" is like that) and sometimes a story that seems very significant and wonderful in my head doesn't turn out quite so well on paper ("Lesser of Two Evils" is one of those; I'm not quite sure I succeeded with that one.)

I've got a fairly snippy critical voice in the back of my skull informing me when I'm being sloppy or self-indulgent, and though I sometimes ignore it, I always know it's there. I know that sometimes the quick-fix fics will get more fb than the stuff I sweat over, but hey, other people like indulgences too, so it doesn't bother me particularly. I absolutely don't expect people to cut me slack for non-beta'd fic--in fact, I want them to point out problems, so I can fix them.

[rahirah]

ETA: There's another reason I write, and it has to do with wanting to explore/explain Big Cool Ideas. My S/B series isn't just about Spike and Buffy, it's also about vampires, and souls, and the origins of Slayer power, and the Balance.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/]

Came by way of the Herald

There are about as many different reasons why people write as there are stories. The human mind is vast in its ability to imagine and the drive to create is ingrained in our biology. Personally I write because the story demands to be told. Something inside of me needs to be put on the page. And I'm a perfectionist so nothing I do is ever unbetaed. By the time I post it's been looked over at least a dozen times by at least two people. And yet, it's still just an exercise in having fun and a cathartic way of expressing myself in words.

I write from the heart, not the mind. The brain work comes later with edit after edit after edit. But there is nothing to edit if I haven't laid the groundwork of the heart of the story. I approach every fic the same way.

I'm very well known for those one-offs you talk about. I don't consider them any less serious because the story is told in one short go, rather than several chapters. A story may fit better in a shorter venture then if it had been dragged out for longer than it was warranted. Each story is unique, long or short.

I approach fb much like I approach the world. I expect nothing and then I'm pleasantly surprised when I get something good and then thrilled when something I've done is loved by others.

But I also want to discuss this: Which is why, I think, there's so much confusion/contention surrounding the term "crack!fic".

First question: how does the technically brilliant B/F prison fic become crack!fic for you? The way you describe it seems perfectly in line with #2, so why would you call it crack!fic? Just because you don't think the premise is appropriate for the characters that are being used? That is simply a subjective personal opinion and may not apply to someone else. Second, intent and speed have nothing to do with quality, worth, etc. Mozart wrote some of his symphonies while sitting in bars in between beers. Millions of people every year sit down and write crap despite having the best intentions and trying desperately to write the next 'great American novel.' Intent has nothing to do with ability, and neither does the so-called 'seriousness' of the work. All it has to do with is how pretentious the author can be.

So why is there so much confusion and contention surrounding this term? Because of the way it is being used. I am just sick of people using this term to deride something with only a subjective basis and then state their judgments as fact. Stating it as a fact doesn't make it so.

The term used to be a compliment. "This fic is so my crack!fic because I want more of it like right freaking now!" It's sad that now we can add crack!fic onto the list of derogatory terms. It’s now used to disparage and belittle. And though some deem that acceptable, others very loudly do not!

When derogatory terms are applied to people or their work, you will get opposition and contention.

Think of other derogatory terms. Used on oneself it is often in lieu of a joke or badge of honor. Anyone watch Def Comedy Jam? But used by someone else to belittle or judge or disparage such as: “Some crack!fic, I honestly don't understand why people write.” And people are bound to get testy. Use it for your own work, go right on ahead. But use it to describe someone else’s work and put them down because of it, and you (general) are bound to step on toes.

And whether you intended for your crack!fic part of the post to come across this way or not, it sounds as if what you deem crack!fic is less worthy or has less of a reason to exist. There seems to be a trend in the fandom lately of devaluing certain types of fics with this term. This is really unnecessary. We’re all just here because we love our long gone shows and have fun playing with the characters. Everything else is just icing.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry if I caused any offense; none was intended.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[ex-dovil323.livejournal.com]

Oh, excellent post. I salute you, if I did that kind of thing. I shall raise my left eyebrow in appreciation instead.

Now, lets talk about me (haha)! Erm, I'm kind of stradling the divide between being a reader and a writer and by golly am I glad that I decided to wear pants. This was the first time that I picked up a keyboard and tried my hand at writing, and by golly do I suck. Of that I don't care too much, I know that there's room for improvement, I know that there's bits I'm getting the hang off even if there's still bits that are out of my slippery grasp, I know that if I really want to write something that's good that it's going to take a lot more practice, time, and effort on my part that I'm putting in. You have to do the work to get the rewards. Damn it, I'll never be a writer.

So I'm firmly in category 2, mainly because I just haven't built up enough writing skills yet, even though I think I've got a pretty good grasp of the source material and I definitely warn people before the story, not as a 'Oh my god, I'm so modest though completely wonderful' because I'm not 12 and I know what I'm good at and what I'm not. Most writers are going to be the average schmucks because otherwise how would you be able to differentiate between them and the fantabulous ones. Plus I'm a lazy bastard. But at least I know that I'm a category 2/crack!fic writer, because correct categories are important. Excuse me while I go and put my newspapers dating back to 1983 in order. Haha!

Oh, and I get why more feedback than my stuff deserves. But I pay complete strangers to leave comments, so it's all good.

Did I even get close to answering your question?? Where am I?

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of stradling the divide between being a reader and a writer and by golly am I glad that I decided to wear pants.

Ok, what I want to know is does it hurt, or if you wiggle a little, does it turn you on?

I think we're a bit...at odds about what I've defined as "type 2", at least in this post. The first approach to writing I was talking about is a focus on story; the second is a focus on form; both derive from canon. By "form" I don't mean necessarily parody or mock!fics or crack!fic, though all three can exist in this category--for instance, germaine_pet's Porn In Iambic Pentameter has a lot of elements of the second category, and I do feel it's also a crack!fic due to the premise. But most crack!fic I've read doesn't fall into either category I've outline--it might be a rolicking good story, and thus have shades of the first, or it might be written to exploit one form or another--2--but it draws as much of its inspiration from fandom as it does from canon.

But anyway, what I'm talking about as far as the "type 2" moniker goes is less about content and more about the approach. My longer fics I approach as stories, e.g., what would've happened if Whistler never existed?. My shorter, more thematic and experimental fics, I've approaches as forms, e.g. Can a Dru be written in first person? OR, Can I create five different endings for NFA, not as five separate ficlets, but as one fic that says the same thing in five ways? etc.

Anyway, the points you bring up are interesting, because they go back to the definitions of crack!fic and the difficulties thereof I mentioned above. I might call a fic "crack" because it has Angel as a poor painter and Spike as an exotic stripper, but it might also be an incredible story that in fact draws so much on the canon characters that I would also call it type 1. But I also call pieces that don't take canon into consideration and are neither intensely interested in story or form crack too.

But I pay complete strangers to leave comments, so it's all good.

Duuuude. How much do they get? Makes me want to defriend you and pretend I don't know you anymore :o) :o)

[romanyg.livejournal.com]

I'm so behind in LJ. *despairs*

I've written both types. I'm an overly organic writer, I'm afraid, and let fic stew and boil in my brain for quite some time before ever tapping at the keyboard. For instance, I could say that I wrote His Body a Boat in one night, but that wouldn't account for the *five months* that I spent going over almost every single line in my head, weighing and savoring, distilling. And then the drabble format forced me to distill even more.

Even with that care and attention, I made mistakes that I've corrected as much as I could, but I'm still hyper-aware of the blemishes.

Every night I go over fic in my head before I fall asleep, rewrite and edit. 95% of this never makes it to the computer.

I'm weird. *sigh*

Thanks for this. Once again, you give good meta.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I'm so behind in LJ. *despairs*

Gah, me too!

*five months* that I spent going over almost every single line in my head, weighing and savoring, distilling.

It shows.

And then the drabble format forced me to distill even more.

Which is why I think the drabble is such an excellent tool. I don't write them myself; I'm way too verbose, but I HAVE taken up the idea of setting a word limit for certain things in fic, and I think it's helped me a lot. One day I'll attempt drabbles, but I think I need to work my way down first!

Every night I go over fic in my head before I fall asleep, rewrite and edit. 95% of this never makes it to the computer.

This is interesting, because I'm kind of the opposite. I concieve at night in bed. I edit during the daylight hours sitting on my computer. I usually can't edit in my head (though sometimes I do) because I have to be looking at it. Even if I've been over it so many times I can write it from memory, I need to see it to work on it almost always. But yeah, I spend a lot of time trying to get to sleep coming up with the next scene, the next chapter, the next line.

We're both weird.

And thanks for answering!

[zibbycomix.livejournal.com]

Everything that I've written is type #1. Even if I thought I had something important to say in the piece, it was still type #1. I think that's because I've never really done writing excercises, and I've never really experimented with writing in the way that you described.
I think I tend to prefer reading type #1 as well, though type #2 can be really well done.
And I wonder if I'm strange- but I haven't had much of anything beta'ed. Of course most of my writing has never gone beyond my computer.... But I think I get nervous about people beta'ing my stuff, because I don't like to hear negative feedback. It's true that negative feedback can be important, but it just discourages me. So usually I just like people saying things like "great job" and leave it at that. Yeah.... It is nice that people (well, my BFF and you) have offered to beta my stuff. That makes me happy. =)