lettered: (Default)
It's Lion Turtles all the way down ([personal profile] lettered) wrote2006-03-06 04:06 am

Let's talk about word emphasis. And sundry.

G. TKP: I shaved my arm-pits.
TKMom: Cool. Let me see.
TKP: Look. (hooks index in t-shirt sleeve to reveal self.)
TKMom: They're so sparkly!
R. Got 4th rejection letter. Am waiting to get rejected to 3 more grad schools. Go me.
A. Writing month! It's a time to discuss how we write, why we write, what we write. DISCUSSION, it squeezes me up out of defjection from rejection (marvel at my rhyme) like a tight hug or one of those stress things, the ones you squeeze and have to keep grabbing hand over fist lest they slip from your hands entirely. It's about being constructive, and possibly positive, and gazing at our navels with shining, dewy eyes and wondering words that tumble from our mazed-parted lips in the form of, "I'm beautiful; I'm really beautiful!"

V. Er, the point of this post...

I've seen people use
bold font
*astrisks*
/slashes/
\backslashes\
-dashes-
_these thingies_
CAPSLOCK
"quotes"
'single quotes'
~are these things called tildas?~
=equals signs--no, really!=
underlined text

and much more in order to:

-emphasize a word or phrase
-signify a thought taking place in a character's head
-denote a flashback
-emphasize a word occuring within a sentence/phrase/whatever that's already italicized because it's a flashback or a thought

Me, I only ever use italics for these things inside a fic (what I do in my posts and comments is a completely different story to me). When I want to emphasize something occuring already inside an italicized phrase, I un-italicize the word I want to emphasize, as demonstrated above. I only use italics for these purposes for several reasons:

-this is the way I see it done in published fiction.
-uniformity, which is somewhat connected to the next to ideas, so I won't go into it that much. In short, the reader doesn't have to guess why I emphasized some words in one way and other words in another way, or try to decipher whether the different ways of emphasis connotate different levels of importance.
-if I need another tool besides italics to convey my meaning, my meaning is probably convoluted, and could stand simplification until I only need italics in order to make my point.
(e.g., in Down There In The Reeperbahn I really wanted the dialogue bits to occur with as little narrative background as possible, and thus I had a problem of signifying who was saying what lines. I ended up using italics to signify Dru's voice. If it was still unclear who was speaking, there was a problem with my concept, my dialogue, and my presentation, and those are things that can't be fixed by resorting to using other "signifiers" to denote other people talking.)
-how they look. Italics are subtle and don't call a lot of attention to themselves. For me, all those other things do. Bold, CAPSLOCK, and underline have a tendency to draw the eye. (When skimming my flist, I almost always read the CAPSLOCKED text, the links, and the cut title first, because the colors and size call attention to themselves. It's lead to me missing important information contained in the regular text.)
Asteriks, slashes, dashes, et al, not only call attention, but add something to the text that is not meant to be read. This bothers me a lot. I feel that everything in most kinds of fiction should be a part of the text. Asterisks used to emphasize a word are not things that we read, but visual clues that the words they enclose are important.

I'd like to note that I am a big fan of making text a visual experience. Poetry, notably through e e cummings and the like, uses the shape of words and the space on the page as part and parcel to the piece itself. Prose is a different thing, but I don't quite believe it when people say this is the difference. Reading is looking at marks on a page, whether prose or poetry, whether the text transports you to a new world or not.

As such, I love prose that experiments/does new things with space and those marks on said page. The first time I saw it done in prose was Toni Morrison's Beloved, in which she eliminated spaces between some words in order to produce confusionurgencypanic. I've seen some fic-authors use that same technique to extraordinary effect. And when it comes to this kind of experimentation, I feel there is no right and wrong. Pynchon uses mathematical equations in the middle of text, and even though I for the most part don't understand it, I fangirl the effort.

But when some fic-authors use *asterisks* merely to emphasize a word, it doesn't appear to me to be trying something new with space or text-shape or anything like that. It appears to me to be just another way to emphasize a word, and in a way I find distracting and detrimental to the look of the text as a whole. Bold or CAPSLOCK could be used very purposely to draw the eye--to trick the reader into reading in a non-linear fashion, which could, if the author is very clever, produce an effect the reader would not otherwise experience. But when some fic-authors use Bold or CAPSLOCK , again, they seem to be doing so only for word-emphasis, and again, in a way I find distracting and detrimental.

That said, there are uses for some of these styles other than word emphasis. Some are:

-underlining book titles.
-boldfacing titles of segments of the text (part one, part two, so on.)
-boldfacing a sign, or business card, etc. Some books seem to want to physically show you the business card or sign. The block of text saying what's on the card is usually indented and formatted to look like a sign. I usually stay away from this use; it falls into the category of "if I can't show this through regular text, there's something wrong with my writing, not my visual presentation." But, I've seen some authors do it, so there, exception to the "way it's done in published books" rule of mine.
-CAPSLOCKING a disembodied or really powerful voice. For instance, JKR probably wore out her capslock button on Book 5. I stay away from this use also, for the same reasons as above.
-"quoted" or 'single-quoted' words obviously have their place in text, but they shouldn't be used as italics are, imo. I'm told there's an episode of "Freinds" and Ross air-quoting "thanks" that could probably explain the difference.


Anyway, I've seen excellent authors I admire use many of these styles, especially boldface, CAPSLOCK, and *astrisks*. No matter who's writing it, it throws me out of the text. But that's me, my opinion, my way of writing, and my way of reading. What're your thoughts on the matter? How do you use these tools, if you use them? What do you think when you see them in text?
Y. "Cheekbones so unreal they must be sparkled with god-dust"...The lovechild of Kiera Knightly and James Marsters could split atoms with his cheekbones.
!. Mmm. Brains.
lynnenne: (help i've fallen by shopgirl2004)

[personal profile] lynnenne 2006-03-07 10:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Hee! Any mention of Lorne and Snyder together is enough to make me go vot. Even if it's just pretend.

[identity profile] wildrosesings.livejournal.com 2006-03-07 11:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually, not so many woes at the moment. But as a biology phd student who isn't exactly on the speedy track to a degree, the grad school blues are bound to be around again.
inalasahl: (serenity)

[personal profile] inalasahl 2006-03-08 12:28 am (UTC)(link)
But when some fic-authors use *asterisks* merely to emphasize a word, it doesn't appear to me to be trying something new with space or text-shape or anything like that. It appears to me to be just another way to emphasize a word, and in a way I find distracting and detrimental to the look of the text as a whole.
I would just like to point out that that's because it's not trying something new, it's trying something old. ASCII doesn't have italics, so people used asterisks to show what words were supposed to be in italics. This is what I was taught when I entered fandom in 1994, as I'm sure a lot of other people were. I use italics now that I can, but sometimes I still use asterisks, for example, on mail lists, because I know that not everyone has html enabled e-mail.
ext_7189: (Default)

Re: /sigh/

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 02:02 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks. I'm not sure about any of them accepting me, but even if I get rejected everywhere I still expect to do something good (heh, something good.) with my life, and that's something.

And yeah, aren't the edelweiss pretty? I didn't actually see any when I was in Austria, and that disappointed me greatly. For all that the song seems to portray them as a kind of...simple flower, they look rather fancy to me. Though still "clean and bright"! I used to think that those tiny star daisies, the ones that are really only weeds?--I don't know what they're called--were what edelweiss must be like. Very small and unassuming, but rather sweet and refreshing in a feild full of them.
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 02:25 am (UTC)(link)
I can see a case made for bold emphasis on a world that would be italicized in a sentence that's completely italized because it's thought or other.

I can as well. I can see a case made for all these things. But personally, I prefer the emphasized word in an already italicized phrase to be plain text, unitalicized. Bold draws my eyes too much. Just now my eyes were drawn to Kiera Knightly and James Marsters because you bolded them. Did I want to be thinking about them while replying to this portion of your comment? Okay, possibly, because I myself am getting bored with this portion of the comment, but really, it's the principal of the...Kiera and James what???????

I tend to overuse dashes in both my dialogue and my narrative speech.

James Marsters is way too freakin' old to play Romeo; I'm with a2zmom. But Kiera Knightley, actually, is only like 20 or so, and might could fly.
ext_1611: Isis statue (wings)

[identity profile] isiscolo.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 03:29 am (UTC)(link)
[via [livejournal.com profile] metafandom]

I don't mind any of this in lj-posts, but unless I'm reading a story in a .txt file, I want to see emphasis with actual italics, not with asterisks or slashes or anything else. I find it mildly irritating, when I'm reading a story, to see emphasis with asterisks in a perfectly good html file, where italics can be coded.

I don't like reading large hunks of text in italics, though.

Capslock drives me nuts. Sorry, JKR.
axiom_of_stripe: DC Comics: Kory cries "X'Hal!" (Curious Feeling)

ah, usenet, the crazy old days

[personal profile] axiom_of_stripe 2006-03-08 04:28 am (UTC)(link)
i'm also dropping by from [livejournal.com profile] metafandom, because -- while i do agree with what you're saying about the visual effect of typography -- i am oldskool enough that many of the pre-html conventions are meaningful to me. i have a particular nostalgia for *this*, the most common emphatic typography where i used to hang out, because it allowed for differentiating between *this sort of emphasis* and *this* *sort* *of* *emphasis*. (it was very hard to not put an exclamation point on the end of that, by the way.) i did learn to see italics in /this way/ because the first slash pushes the letters over into the italics slant and the last one keeps them propped up so they don't just all fall over, you see.

additionally, while i don't expect to see these in a finished story any more, i still write in a plain text editor and use *this emphasis* for italics in my drafts; it's easier for me to read than html code when editing.
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[identity profile] kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, exactly. If you posted first to a mailing list and are now posting to your LJ or website, how much trouble is it to do a search and replace for asterisks to italics? It really doesn't take long.
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
I honestly don't have a good excuse for myself.

Well, imo, they're not abuses, and you don't need an excuse. This post just dilineate what I prefer to see and why I prefer to see it. However, if you yourself think there's a problem with *this*, then perhaps you do need to give it a little thought. /repetitive disclaiming

which I do because I tend to write in the third person limited POV and do have to delineate when it is an actual internally "verbalized" thought

This is an interesting distinction. My problem with some italicized thought in the past has been I read it and think, that thought wouldn't be coherent--wouldn't be internally verbalized--in such an such scenario. That thought there, for instance. When I read it happening I don't really think it words as complicated as "coherent" or "internally verbalized"; it's just the flash of an idea. So anyway, my point is, I try to keep internally verbalized thought to an absolute minimum, because I think most of us only rarely think in complete sentences or even words. But, if one does hold off on doing that too often, using it here and there could prove very effective, I bet.

I have issues with em dashes and the abuse there of. Just ask my beta amybnnyc. Heh. At least I've read the Chicago Manual of style and know the difference between a dash, an en dash and an em dash.

It's so funny people keep mentioning dashes, because I was going to do a whole separate post about dashes and punctuation. I have lots of trouble with them too--I use them too often. And I know the difference between en and em and think I know when to use which, but I think I'm going to throw it out there so we can all discuss how we do it or think it should be done. I'm like this discussion slut.

But now, I feel like I'm just listing off my own behaviors rather than contributing to this discussion in a meaningful way.

No! I felt like this was meaningful. The point, actually, was for me to spout off my own thoughts and for us to then spout off thoughts at eachother. I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong or what should or shouldn't be done. More disclaiming!

I think it's obvious that people who don't put a space between speakers in dialogue are trying to make me lose my mind.

Heh. Me too. I think space and how it is used is a very important concept in fiction, both online and off. It's interesting what you say about there being a lot of space in your fics, about rhythm, about hearing it like poetry. To me your fics are very snappy, very clean, very...I don't know how to say this other than pow! pow! pow!--not at all like I'm being shot, but like I'm being fed brief images--but not images, not pictures, but brief moments in time, or brief insights, brief but as powerful and complete as an image is. Anyway, lots of space works for a fic like that. A fic that weaves in and out around and about knitting everything into itself and spooling out of itself should be spaced differently. Both are beautiful forms, btw, but they require different approaches.

Hi, I'm new to you!

[identity profile] altyronsmaker.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 05:12 am (UTC)(link)
here via [livejournal.com profile] metafandom

Grrr. The 'visuality' (umm, is that a word?!?!?) of text ticks me off when I'm reading it. The bold stuff, the underscored stuff, the underlined, asterisked, slashed (not ships but the // thingies), tilda'd and dashed emphases yank me out of a story faster than Apollo Ohno on a short track... ok, make that really fast.

Italics suffice. Always have, always will. And when you want to emphasize a word that is already italicized? UNitalicize it. Simple, easy peasey.

Also, book titles are italicized also.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/ 2006-03-08 08:22 am (UTC)(link)
Well, being keen on web accessibility, I prefer to use the <em> tag rather than <i>, but for your purposes it all counts as italic.

I try to be light on italics, just as I am light on exclamation marks. When I was young and foolish I occasionally used <strong> (which displays as bold) for extra emphasis, but I saw the light eventually and I think I've got rid of them all now. And I find people marking up thoughts in italic excessively annoying for some reason.

But I must be one of the worst offenders in fandom when it comes to fancily marked up twittery within the text. The Telegram I used in Wild Demonic Fauna (http://www.ficbitch.com/peasants_plot/WildDemonicFauna.html#telegram) being probably my most excessive example. But there are others. I've had snippets of newspapers, a hand written card, book contents, extracts of letters... What can I say? I like writing the code.
gloss: woman in front of birch tree looking to the right (Default)

[personal profile] gloss 2006-03-08 04:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, being keen on web accessibility, I prefer to use the em tag rather than i
Thank you!

[identity profile] dejla.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 06:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Once I've figured out what the author is trying to do with the various formatting, I'm usually fine, unless there are long strings of CAPSLOCK, which I can't read easily. I did find the CAPSLOCK in Book 5 distracting.

I'm easier with the formatting in fanfic, especially when it's plain text. There's no easy way to signify thoughts or emphasis in plain text, that I can see.

Re: /sigh/

[identity profile] imnotacommittee.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 06:34 pm (UTC)(link)
A wonderful way of looking at it, and so very true. We're all going to do something awesome with our lives. Sometimes I find the suspence to be killing me, but whenever I look back and see how things have turned out, it's quite fascinating thus far.

I didn't see any Edelweiss when I was in Austria either. I read somewhere that they're solitary flowers that are grow in little patches of viable earth in the mountains, so any reference I've written in a fic or I've read in other fics about there being fields of them are untrue. Oh well. It's still nice to imagine fields of them somewhere.

I know what flowers you mean, the star daisies (if that's not what they're called, they should be) are very Edelweiss-esque. Little bits of sweetness plopped in all the right places.
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[identity profile] ravenwings-7.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 08:35 pm (UTC)(link)
I think Mercedes Lackey used italics within slashes to denote telepathy/special communication. Or maybe it was colons?

It was colons.

And I wasn't planning on replying to this particular thread (possibly still will to the main post), but about five minutes after reading it, I was no longer able to contain the urge to sift through the Mercedes Lackey pile for an answer. Fiend. ;)
::flicks candy wrapper at you in retaliation::
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[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 09:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Yay Mercedes Lackey! Are you a fan? I really really love her Arrows of the Queen trilogy. I used to be all fannish about it. I have Talia/Dirk fanfiction. But most of the others I read after that weren't as appealing to me. I guess I feel like there's something sweet and childish in those that got lost in her later Valdemar novels.

::searches wrapper for excess chocolate and or sugar::
ext_21:   (chuckleheads!)

[identity profile] zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 10:08 pm (UTC)(link)
With the except of capslock, which, since I process text by hearing it in my head, comes across as someone shouting at me, I'm okay with any of the above conventions in an ascii file or e-mail.

In an html file, I think convention demands <em> for emphasis. I actually think we should switch to <strong>, because that is typically bold for visual screenreaders, and bold is easier to read on most computer screens.

But then, I think anyone who bothers formatting their text for screen reading and then uses a serif font should be shot, so I may be a bit unusual.
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 11:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Didn't it remind you of bad!fic about Spike? If I have to read one more sentence about how his cheekbones are so sharp they could cut ____, I'm going to....stop reading such fic and also edit the part in that one story I wrote where I said something similar ;o)
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 11:43 pm (UTC)(link)
No, you hadn't sent me there before. And wow, your son sounds very intelligent and well-spoken. Of course, it was to be expected from what you say of him and who you are, too, but--I just learned a lot from that one little article. Go him! Too bad it doesn't seem to be a more lucrative profession--it sounds like an interesting job that he's good at.
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 11:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Exactly. I feel that relegating experimentation with the visual aspect of text to poetry but not prose is...small-minded. Of course, I have trouble with the abstract and out of the box when it comes to writing, just as I have difficulty liking many abstract paintings--but I do think experimentation with it is valid and can push fiction in new directions that change the way we think of stories.
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 11:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh god, that's a relief. I was beginning to think my menacing and malicious persona was a secret joke amongst my colleagues and friends.

[identity profile] alleynyc.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 11:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually I was reading this chick's gripping about Bones (the one whose fic I recced - amazingly good fic) and while she was often snarking for snarks sake, her pointing out of all the badfic conventions on that show was dead on. LOL. Fucking hilarious.

Although the best comment was left in *her* LJ by someone who said, "This just gives me hope that other shows will also start hiring fanfic writers to write their shows. Although, hopefully they'll hire better ones, you know?"

Badfic lives on!
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Sometimes I wonder if you're one of those people who thinks I live on a ranch and drive a pick-em-up and wear boots and own a hat. Of course we have cream eggs! And I can be bitter if you want ;o)
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[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-03-08 11:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Come to think of it, I do own a hat. But not THAT kind of hat.

I'm going to the rodeo next week. I want to get a huge silver belt buckle that weighs down my pants, and eat fried oreos, and see the pretty horses. Have you ever listened to Cross Canadian Ragweed? Have we had this conversation before? Anyway, I wanted to listen to them but my friends couldn't got that night so we're stuck with Maroon 5. Once we saw Bon Jovi. I'd never even listened to Bon Jovi before but it was fun. Now we use the phrase "It was Bon Jovi" to refer to things we don't think will be fun but are and are a trifle embarrassed about liking.

But I am not a cowgirl!

That without a t is hat. Or tha, but what's the significance of that?

[identity profile] alleynyc.livejournal.com 2006-03-09 12:01 am (UTC)(link)
Also, I would not be surprised if the hand of Stephen Colbert was involved with those ads. Have you seen the vid from his show where he reads selections from his self-published novel 'Alpha Squad 7: Lady Nocturne. A Tek Janson Adventure?' Hilarious.

It's here and about 2/3 of the way into the clip.
http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/?lnk=v&ml_video=24396&source=OD_VIDEO:playlist:Tip%2FWag%3A+Alpha+Squad+7#

There's also other 'chapters' posted at his site if the clip takes too long to load. Very fun.

http://www.colbertnation.com/colbertnation/novel.jhtml

Enjoy.

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