Let's talk about word emphasis. And sundry.

[lettered]

G. TKP: I shaved my arm-pits.
TKMom: Cool. Let me see.
TKP: Look. (hooks index in t-shirt sleeve to reveal self.)
TKMom: They're so sparkly!
R. Got 4th rejection letter. Am waiting to get rejected to 3 more grad schools. Go me.
A. Writing month! It's a time to discuss how we write, why we write, what we write. DISCUSSION, it squeezes me up out of defjection from rejection (marvel at my rhyme) like a tight hug or one of those stress things, the ones you squeeze and have to keep grabbing hand over fist lest they slip from your hands entirely. It's about being constructive, and possibly positive, and gazing at our navels with shining, dewy eyes and wondering words that tumble from our mazed-parted lips in the form of, "I'm beautiful; I'm really beautiful!"

V. Er, the point of this post...

I've seen people use
bold font
*astrisks*
/slashes/
\backslashes\
-dashes-
_these thingies_
CAPSLOCK
"quotes"
'single quotes'
~are these things called tildas?~
=equals signs--no, really!=
underlined text

and much more in order to:

-emphasize a word or phrase
-signify a thought taking place in a character's head
-denote a flashback
-emphasize a word occuring within a sentence/phrase/whatever that's already italicized because it's a flashback or a thought

Me, I only ever use italics for these things inside a fic (what I do in my posts and comments is a completely different story to me). When I want to emphasize something occuring already inside an italicized phrase, I un-italicize the word I want to emphasize, as demonstrated above. I only use italics for these purposes for several reasons:

-this is the way I see it done in published fiction.
-uniformity, which is somewhat connected to the next to ideas, so I won't go into it that much. In short, the reader doesn't have to guess why I emphasized some words in one way and other words in another way, or try to decipher whether the different ways of emphasis connotate different levels of importance.
-if I need another tool besides italics to convey my meaning, my meaning is probably convoluted, and could stand simplification until I only need italics in order to make my point.
(e.g., in Down There In The Reeperbahn I really wanted the dialogue bits to occur with as little narrative background as possible, and thus I had a problem of signifying who was saying what lines. I ended up using italics to signify Dru's voice. If it was still unclear who was speaking, there was a problem with my concept, my dialogue, and my presentation, and those are things that can't be fixed by resorting to using other "signifiers" to denote other people talking.)
-how they look. Italics are subtle and don't call a lot of attention to themselves. For me, all those other things do. Bold, CAPSLOCK, and underline have a tendency to draw the eye. (When skimming my flist, I almost always read the CAPSLOCKED text, the links, and the cut title first, because the colors and size call attention to themselves. It's lead to me missing important information contained in the regular text.)
Asteriks, slashes, dashes, et al, not only call attention, but add something to the text that is not meant to be read. This bothers me a lot. I feel that everything in most kinds of fiction should be a part of the text. Asterisks used to emphasize a word are not things that we read, but visual clues that the words they enclose are important.

I'd like to note that I am a big fan of making text a visual experience. Poetry, notably through e e cummings and the like, uses the shape of words and the space on the page as part and parcel to the piece itself. Prose is a different thing, but I don't quite believe it when people say this is the difference. Reading is looking at marks on a page, whether prose or poetry, whether the text transports you to a new world or not.

As such, I love prose that experiments/does new things with space and those marks on said page. The first time I saw it done in prose was Toni Morrison's Beloved, in which she eliminated spaces between some words in order to produce confusionurgencypanic. I've seen some fic-authors use that same technique to extraordinary effect. And when it comes to this kind of experimentation, I feel there is no right and wrong. Pynchon uses mathematical equations in the middle of text, and even though I for the most part don't understand it, I fangirl the effort.

But when some fic-authors use *asterisks* merely to emphasize a word, it doesn't appear to me to be trying something new with space or text-shape or anything like that. It appears to me to be just another way to emphasize a word, and in a way I find distracting and detrimental to the look of the text as a whole. Bold or CAPSLOCK could be used very purposely to draw the eye--to trick the reader into reading in a non-linear fashion, which could, if the author is very clever, produce an effect the reader would not otherwise experience. But when some fic-authors use Bold or CAPSLOCK , again, they seem to be doing so only for word-emphasis, and again, in a way I find distracting and detrimental.

That said, there are uses for some of these styles other than word emphasis. Some are:

-underlining book titles.
-boldfacing titles of segments of the text (part one, part two, so on.)
-boldfacing a sign, or business card, etc. Some books seem to want to physically show you the business card or sign. The block of text saying what's on the card is usually indented and formatted to look like a sign. I usually stay away from this use; it falls into the category of "if I can't show this through regular text, there's something wrong with my writing, not my visual presentation." But, I've seen some authors do it, so there, exception to the "way it's done in published books" rule of mine.
-CAPSLOCKING a disembodied or really powerful voice. For instance, JKR probably wore out her capslock button on Book 5. I stay away from this use also, for the same reasons as above.
-"quoted" or 'single-quoted' words obviously have their place in text, but they shouldn't be used as italics are, imo. I'm told there's an episode of "Freinds" and Ross air-quoting "thanks" that could probably explain the difference.


Anyway, I've seen excellent authors I admire use many of these styles, especially boldface, CAPSLOCK, and *astrisks*. No matter who's writing it, it throws me out of the text. But that's me, my opinion, my way of writing, and my way of reading. What're your thoughts on the matter? How do you use these tools, if you use them? What do you think when you see them in text?
Y. "Cheekbones so unreal they must be sparkled with god-dust"...The lovechild of Kiera Knightly and James Marsters could split atoms with his cheekbones.
!. Mmm. Brains.

Comments

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Crazy ass formatting such as italics and boldface, etc. was one of my HUGE issues. I still struggle with it. But when I finish a fic that has no bells or whistles like those in it, I know that I've said what I wanted to say with just my words. As it should be.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think we talked about this before, but I had trouble getting into your fic at first because the ones I started with had a few too many of those "bells and whistles" for me. But while I admit that I still find some parts of some of your fics over-wrought, a few tricks you use(d) really taught me a lot about both what I'm saying about the look of text and not only non-linear story-telling but...well, non-linear text. If that makes any sense.

And yeah, even italics I try to use as little as possible, because I want the weight to be in the words and not the slant of the text.

[wildrosesings.livejournal.com]

Since I'm fairly new to the party--what discipline are you planning on studying in grad school?

Sucks about the rejections--but remember, you only have to be accepted once!

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I'm applying to creative writing MFA programs. I always feel the need to clarify that it's very different than applying to a grad program in say, English. Most people don't ever get rejected to English programs and if they are, it's because they shouldn't even be applying in the first place. Creative Writing MFA programs, OTOH, are a lot more like...applying to med school in terms of how MANY people get rejected. One school I applied to took 6 out of nearly a thousand. That makes me feel better about getting rejected, but ...still. I applied last year and didn't get into any. I don't know what to do with myself if I can't go to school, because all I want to do is sit around and write. I guess we don't always get what we want!

And thanks for the sympathy and listening to me whine. :o)

[hannasus.livejournal.com]

I used to be a graphic designer and I've always been fascinated with typography, so I am totally on the same page with you on this. I use almost exclusively italics for emphasis in my fiction writing. Very rarely I'll use caps, for example in the case of a sudden, jarring, very loud sound. THWAP.

My big pet peeve is underlining because typographically it's an editor's notation that simply means that text should be italicized. In the old days when we used typewriters that couldn't do italics, underlining was proper form, but now it's just a dinosaur that needs to be exterminated.

And don't even get me started on the whole hyphen/en dash/em dash problem (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/emen/). Yes, I am a bit of a pedant.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I don't like caps even for THWAP. I like "his hand made a loud thwap! on her bottom".

I didn't know that about underlining--I'd always wondered. I learned that underlining was correct in referencing books, but I never saw it in published novels that referred to other books. Maybe I should change the above.

And hahahahaha! The next post I was going to do in my "writing" vein was going to be about punctuation, and I was wondering if I should do a whole separate post to explain hyphens, en dahses, and em dashes!

[ros-fod.livejournal.com]

All of the formatting that you've listed really bugs me. But that doesn't mean that I won't use one or two myself. I use mostly italics when I feel the need to emphasize a word, but it always feels like cheating, like I shouldn't write:

"What?" Angel said.

I should write:

"What?" Angel said, the word a sharp, bright flash of anger. Gunpowder in the night.

But, AUGH. Who *wants* to do that for every time Angel emphasizes a word, you know? THE TEDIUM.

I let myself off the hook a bit more when I'm using formatting shorthand in the actual dialogue, too. In the narrative, I tend to shirk away from it altogether, although I've used it there, as well, especially as the narrative with each piece is getting tighter and tighter in the 3rd person POV. But that's another quandry, and perhaps a discussion for another day.

The whole idea of the characters thoughts being transcribed in between the paragraph breaks of the story, in italics or between brackets or otherwise. God. No. I put my foot down. Down it goes.

[ros-fod.livejournal.com]

Also, boo. Boo, I say, to grad school rejections.

Here, this will cheer you up: Smile! (http://www.bitboard.com/0798/armpits.jpg)

[swmbo.livejournal.com]

I am mostly with you on all of those - and also if there are too many italics. Which, I know I tend to over italicize myself and have to try to go back and break myself of the habit. But if anything is bold or uses unusual characters, it stresses me out because it makes it hard to get lost in the fic.

Capslocking doesn't bother me as much, if it's done for a particular and consistent reason. I've seen the voice of GOD done in caps and it works well, but it has to be something where it's there for power, not shouting.

Special formatting for letters, telegraphs, faxes, business cards, etc wouldn't bother me if they're reproduced entirely. It might throw me out of the fic a little, but I think that's actually the POINT of it, that we are experiencing the same experience as the characters as close as possible. Although I might be ascribing too much to the author's motivation!

I don't like book titles underlined in fiction, though, because it doesn't feel natural.

My main thing is that the physical words should not distract from the message contained within the text.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Totally with you on the over-using italics can get almost as bad, thing. I try to limit myself, but I do get carried away.

There's something about capslocked text that turns me right off, even if it's a voice of power, as you say. It's possibly because I'm used to thinking of capslocking as yelling, due to too much time on the internet--which is weird though, because some lj-ers use lotsa capslock for emphasis on posts, and it's fun and entertaining because they just come off all enthusiastic or excited. But in fic ack! The other reason it turns me off is because it honestly takes me a lot longer to read. I'm a slow reader anyway, and the letters look different in caps, and they're just harder for me to decipher. Especially when it's a font with serifs. How picky is that?

It might throw me out of the fic a little, but I think that's actually the POINT of it, that we are experiencing the same experience as the characters as close as possible. Although I might be ascribing too much to the author's motivation!

No, I think that in the case of published fiction, you're right; that's what they're going for. But it personally throws me too far. Even if the business card is important to the story, if it's the only--or one of the few--blocks of texts that's emphasized in that way, it makes that bit of text stand out more than any other text in the novel--and is it really all that important? If it is, right on. If it isn't--I myself would prefer the card to be described, or a line on it to be told in dialogue.

[rahirah]

I try to restrict myself to italics for emphasis, for the occasional interior thought, and to indicate things like dreams or out-of-body experiences. Very rarely (if, for example, I need to emphasize a word in a passage which is already in italics) I will use bold face, though more often I just de-italicize the emphasised word. I will also occasionally use all-caps to indicate that someone is shouting/screaming very loudly. I used it once for the dialogue of a supernatural creature which was supposed to be boneshakingly loud. And I will sometimes use specialty punctuation to indicate telepathy as opposed to regular speech--when I was writing Elfquest fanfic, for example, the convention was to use ** to indicate when a character was sending rather than talking out loud. (In the original comic book, the difference was indicated by the shape of the word balloon, but that wasn't feasible in prose.)

And back when I was posting to non-HTML mailing lists a lot, I would use = to indicate "This would be in italics if I could do italics in this format, but I can't, so you'll have to imagine it."

Regardless, I try to limit my use of these things, because I think they do tend to make the page look busy, and if they're overused, they can lose their effectiveness and be downright annoying. But I probably still use them more than I really should.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

though more often I just de-italicize the emphasised word.

I do prefer this, though sometimes I wonder if it's really...noticable. If you want the word to pop, you want something about it to be different than ordinary text. But I stick to just de-italicizing because, as you say, the page can look busy with a bunch of these things going on.

And I will sometimes use specialty punctuation to indicate telepathy as opposed to regular speech--

I forgot about that! I HAVE seen that in published fiction...I think Mercedes Lackey used italics within slashes to denote telepathy/special communication. Or maybe it was colons?

And back when I was posting to non-HTML mailing lists a lot, I would use = to indicate "This would be in italics if I could do italics in this format, but I can't, so you'll have to imagine it."

Yeah, I totally forgot to mention that some of these conventions come from posting HTMLess. I totally used stars on lists and on ff.n back in the day before you could easily use italics. And while it kinda sucks, I have less of a problem with it when there's no other way to do it.

And completely with you on the using some of these things more than I should...I only use italics, but I know I overdo it.

[violaclaire.livejournal.com]

I sometimes play with dashes, but this is mostly because I am computer illiterate (truly, until about six months ago I didn't know how to turn one on) and I don't always know the right kind of coding to use. In the best of all possible worlds, I would only ever use italics, and those rarely, unless I was chanelling Salinger.

When I'm reading, I can get thrown out of a story by asteriks and excessive capslock. Dashes and equal signs are unobtrusive enough not to bother me, and I've seen bold enough not to mind. Sidenote--I've seen bold used to emphasize a word occuring in a sentence that's already italicized in published works. In fact, I think Robin McKinley uses it in Spindle's End or Sunshine or possibly both. *shrug* I don't love the effect, but I don't think it's awful.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

The first place I saw italics used for word emphasis was Catcher In The Rye. I was floored. I didn't know you could do that.

I think you're right about the boldface and some of McKinley's stuff...I seem to remember that too, because it threw me out when she did it. I have a big problem with it...but that's me, also, how my eyes are drawn to things, etc. As someone below states, it has a lot to do with how you're used to seeing things.

[gloss]

What's getting overlooked here is that *asterisks* and _offset-underlines_ are holdovers from posting fic in text-only forums. If you posted to UCSL, for example, you'd have no choice *but* to use the typographical emphases. Additionally, many automated archives reject html markup but *do* convert asterisks and line-offsets. The trouble comes, of course, in the fact that different forums translate differently; at the BFA, *asterisks* become italicized, while other places bold the phrase, reserving italics for the _linethingies_.

I consider emphasis, however it's expressed visually, to be one tool among many in the toolkit of rhythm and sense. Overdone, it's as bad as anything else; used judiciously, it's lovely.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Oops! I forgot to mention that. I meant to...after all, I've used asterisks a good deal in the past when HTML wasn't available to make my stuff look how I wanted it to.

I agree that emphasis should be used judiciously, and that it's a wonderful tool. However, my personal experience has been that certain visual expressions of it may have different effects than the author intended.

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

I doubt I ever used bold in a fic piece. I dodn't even use it in my LJ entries on a normal basis. Italics I'll use for thoughts, but very sparingly. I think the one time I ittalicized a paragraph was because Angel was remembering something tht had happened in the past and that seemed the best way to alert the reader to that.

And I use dashes (actually, you make me put in dashes, lol) because I am a huge fan of interupted speech when I write. I think people rarely let other people finish talking especially during emotional conversations.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

If you did use bold and I got to beta it I'd probably tell you not to! I'm so picky!

I think I'm going to do a whole post about dashes. I completely agree about people not letting each other finish in really conversation. I tend to use them far too often in narrative speech as well. But my biggest issue with dashes is there are two different kinds, and then the hyphen, and some people use them interchangeably. I've always thought this to be incorrect, but I haven't brought it up most times when I beta for you or others, because I'm not sure of my facts. Perhaps if we have a big fandom discussion we can figure out what the real deal is. OMG collective hive mind yay!

And hi! I hope work is easing up on you a bit, and that you're doing ok. Kim didn't die but I think there's still hope.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Eidelweiss... Eidelweiss... Bless my homeland for ever.

I'm sorry, were you saying something? Got caught up. :D

[tkp.livejournal.com]

No. Aren't they COOL???????? I've never seen a real one.

[terilyn4.livejournal.com]

can I say, "huh???" you lost me after I saw...

***G. TKP: I shaved my arm-pits.
TKMom: Cool. Let me see.
TKP: Look. (hooks index in t-shirt sleeve to reveal self.)
TKMom: They're so sparkly!***

I did try to read the rest of it but it made my head hurt :D

[tkp.livejournal.com]

My mommy is the greatest. Actually, she's the greatest because she puts up with stuff like that. In case you haven't noticed, I'M BATSHIT CRAZY, and instead of getting freaked my mom ever so indulgently takes it in stride. She can get crazy too. But there's no BATSHIT involved.

Do I scare you, Terilyn? Do I? Good! Mwahahahahahahaha!

[semby.livejournal.com]

Your... whats ... are sparkly? Um... glitter deodorant?

So, yeah, I'm in the "I only use italics" boat. I use them for word emphasis, thoughts, and not so much for flashbacks. I would use a heading for a flashback, or just let the reader guess. Normally flashbacks are long enough that they give me a headache if they're all in italics.

Bolds and capslocks make my head hurt too. I've beta'ed at least one piece that made use of each of those, and maybe it's a personal choice, but my reaction was: "No! This! Change! Hate!"

I see the other things on your list less frequently, I think, and they vary in the degree they would annoy me. Underlining, _underscores_ and =equals= are high up there.

And I'm sorry to hear about the grad school rejections. Here's hoping for better luck for the other three! Do you have any alternate plans?

[tkp.livejournal.com]

My pits are super shiny clean! Do you really want to hear more? Yeah, thought not.

You know, now that we're talking about it, I'm realizing I don't like the idea of "flashbacks". Flashbacks are an excuse for people who're too lazy to know how to use the past imperfect tense. If one has a backstory playing against a present story, one can separate them using jump cuts (skipped space, * * *, skipped space) and leave off the imperfect, but only if the backstory is an actual narrative thread and not just a flash. Movies can't do that, which is why flashbacks are fine in movies, but I dislike how often people use italics or symbols to denote a brief moment back in time. It feels gimmicky to me.

/eesh, rant! sorry.

I don't really have alternate plans if I don't get into grad school. Guess I better start looking for a job. Thanks for the sympathy...I feel the need to be petted these days. Which is probably why I've been posting so much!

[spiralleds.livejournal.com]

We used to refer to rejection letters as DINGs (Damn, I'm No Good). The self-depreciating humor seemed to help. :-p Good luck, break a leg and all that.


I try to hold it down to the occasional use of italics for emphasis. I've also 3used it for a character's inner thoughts when for whatever reason they couldn't speak, although now that I've progressed in my ability to write internal dialog, I'm not sure I would do that any more.

I used to post in a forum that didn't allow for html, so we'd use the stars around a word to convey bold and tilda for italics. In some ways, that was a good thing, because it really encouraged me to minimize my use of those techniques to get across whatever it was I wanted to emphasize, etc., which I think that often be a crutch that keeps a writer from being as strong as they could be.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

DINGs! Oh, I like that! Thanks!

I've also 3used it for a character's inner thoughts when for whatever reason they couldn't speak, although now that I've progressed in my ability to write internal dialog, I'm not sure I would do that any more.

I must say, that though I have no big problem with italics for thoughts, I tend to think a mature writer can work it without italics.

I used to post in a forum that didn't allow for html, so we'd use the stars around a word to convey bold and tilda for italics. In some ways, that was a good thing, because it really encouraged me to minimize my use of those techniques to get across whatever it was I wanted to emphasize, etc., which I think that often be a crutch that keeps a writer from being as strong as they could be.

I had a very similar experience. I used stars, too, but I hate the way they look, as I stated in my post, and it made me really watch what I italicized. I hadn't noticed how much I italicized til I started posting fic online.

This discussion is interesting in light of the fact that in a couple of my last fics, I've used italics in ways I wouldn't've thought of and probably wouldn't've approved of say, last year. I've been trying to do more with playing with the look of text itself...which has led to some bad and some good, I think.

/pointless ramble

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I have a big problem with quotes used for emphasis. Because quotes around a phrase mean something else, and I end up reading whatever it is as being said, which leads to some really bizarre misunderstandings.

I don't really mind boldface or underlining any more than italicizing, so long as I'm not expected to keep track of some complicated symbology of which means which. (Any story which must begin with a key to the typography has lost me at the author's note.) They're all reasonably standard forms of text formatting for emphasis that were out there in the world already. Italics is the way it's done in profic, but IMO italics is far more readable on the printed page than the screen, so I'm okay with these as non-eye-bending replacements.

*asterisks* and _underscores_ I have mixed feelings about. I have some nostalgia for them, since they were old skool Usenet formatting from when you couldn't make your italics and underlining show up. They're still useful for those getting text-only emails, and I am sufficiently used to them as to find them non-distracting.

On the other hand, most of us are reading and posting HTML now. And the use of asterisks (or double colons) to mean "action" in casual online interaction (such as *hugs*) can cause doubletakes.

Of all the non-standard forms of emphasis, *this* is the one I'm most likely to slip into, and use interchangeably with italics in fic. Though I wouldn't do it in a would-be pro story, even one submitted to an online market. I'm torn between thinking this is a lazy tick I should wean myself off of, and thinking that I find it easier to read on screen and I'm probably not the only one, so why not use it, where Industry Standards is not a consideration.

Capslock I really dislike because, per Usenet again, I read it as shouting. Not the character shouting, but the author shouting at me, the reader. Though if used *very*, I mean, very sparingly, it can be effective.

Tildes, equal signs, and slashes of either orientation just confuse me and tend to give me a headache, especially in densely packed text. And dashes I tend to read as em dashes -- the kind you might use to set off a paranthetical phrase -- so just around a word is a little odd, though not as brain-breaking as the others.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I have a big problem with quotes used for emphasis. Because quotes around a phrase mean something else, and I end up reading whatever it is as being said, which leads to some really bizarre misunderstandings.

Me too. The other things--bold etc--aren't really used for anything else, so don't have this problem. I only see quotes rarely used for word emphasis, "thankfully". ;o)

Although, as you say, both asterisks and capslock are used for other things in internet interaction, which I guess is partly why I have a problem with them also. Asterisks very often make me blink, because I'm so used to reading them as people's actions on lj.

I find it easier to read on screen and I'm probably not the only one, so why not use it, where Industry Standards is not a consideration.

Some people have mentioned that italics are difficult to read onscreen--I hadn't had that problem, but this does make sense. dodyskin was saying elsewhere that fics aren't books, and shouldn't try to be. She also mentioned that they have a "different creative tradition", which, though I figured stuff like *asterisks* were a hold over from nonHTML forums for posting, wasn't a point I'd really grasped the importance of before she worded it that way. I still prefer the things I read to look a certain way, but I can certainly understand people who don't feel the need to make fic confirm to "book" standards. And for people who use the medium of fanfic to further fanfic as a form in its own right, more power to them.
/was that preachy? :o)

Tildes

So that's how you spell it!

And dashes I tend to read as em dashes -- the kind you might use to set off a paranthetical phrase -- so just around a word is a little odd, though not as brain-breaking as the others.

I hadn't thought about it that way. But I more often see hyphens used as word emphasis than dashes, and I get thrown off by that.

Wow. This armpit thing sounds momentous

[my_daroga]

I don't think I use anything but italics in my fiction, and that only rarely. I could be wrong, but that's my memory of it. As for LJ, that's totally different, as you've probably noticed. Sometimes I format, but a lot of the time I'm lazy and do *this* instead; I was around back in text-only fan environments, and it feels natural and it's a lot quicker than all those tags.

But never in fic. If I ever wrote something with telepathy, I might. Or might not. Also, if I were to write something where the perspective changed but the chapter didn't for some reason, or I needed to tag the year/location, I'd bold it.

[and I loved those fake best actress commercials. Esp. the old guy who, as regards gardening, said sadly, "But it's all I have."]

Re: Wow. This armpit thing sounds momentous

[tkp.livejournal.com]

something where the perspective changed but the chapter didn't for some reason,

Hm. Do you mean you'd do something like

....The Persain was blah blah blahdittyblah. Big long chunkity of textity blahdeblah...

Erik

Erik left the room, Nadir sated and sleeping on the bed. He then sang himself a little song about goats, blahdeblahdeblah...

?

For some reason, that would only work for me if the Erik was actually ii. Erik with the Persain part being i. Nadir--know what I mean? But that's not only to do with bold, but my personal opinions about POV shifts. I do think you can shift a POV within a chapter (not first person to third, but third limited on one person to third limited on another), but I would be turned off by an abrupt transition within a chapter denoted by bold text, unless the bold text also signified a new segment with a number or similar that made me feel as if the chapter was divided into subchapters or something.

That said, there are all kinds of ways to segment text within a chapter or a single piece of fiction that are by no means...rule following. As I said, I'm all for experimentation with this kind of thing, because I'm huge on form and also the visual aspects of text. It just turns me off when there doesn't seem to be a method to the madness that's integrated with the contect of the text itself.

I keep getting ranty.

[lynnenne]

I really don't mind *asterisks* because they're a holdover from text-editor days, just like underlining is a holdover from the typewriter. I prefer italics, because that's what I'm used to seeing in books. But we tend to forget that, until fairly recently, it was impossible to get italics to show up properly--on the screen or the printed page--unless you had access to a printing press. It's all what you're used to seeing, really.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I used to use asterisks back in the day as well, but I was always massively annoyed by the fact that I had to use them, and I felt they detracted something from the text for the same reasons I feel that way now. But I didn't read or post on the internet then nearly as much as I do now, so maybe I would've gotten over my prejudice and gotten used to using them.

/sigh/

[imnotacommittee.livejournal.com]

I don't know about text emphasis, brain gravy, or cheek bones (aside from Kiera Knightly's being sprinkled with God-dust), but I do like those Edelweiss. Sorry to hear about the rejection letter. I have confidence (hehe) that one of those remaining three will see the light and accept you!

Re: /sigh/

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I'm not sure about any of them accepting me, but even if I get rejected everywhere I still expect to do something good (heh, something good.) with my life, and that's something.

And yeah, aren't the edelweiss pretty? I didn't actually see any when I was in Austria, and that disappointed me greatly. For all that the song seems to portray them as a kind of...simple flower, they look rather fancy to me. Though still "clean and bright"! I used to think that those tiny star daisies, the ones that are really only weeds?--I don't know what they're called--were what edelweiss must be like. Very small and unassuming, but rather sweet and refreshing in a feild full of them.

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

Italics don't bother me a'tall, and I've used them frequently. Bold I haven't seen much - although I can see a case made for bold emphasis on a world that would be italicized in a sentence that's completely italized because it's thought or other. If one is cool with ital in the first place.

Asteriks are okay for LJ posts - but they would throw me out of a fic.

I overuse dashes in LJ posts, but I can only think of one fic (a stream of consciousness thing) I've written that was plagued by them.

The lovechild of Kiera Knightly and James Marsters could split atoms with his cheekbones -- Did you know that the Royal Shakespeare Company of Stratford, England, held a 2004 poll asking movie viewers to vote for the actor and actress they would most like to see in the roles of Romeo and Juliet? And the OVERWHELMING winners were Kiera Knightly and James Marsters? Why do I *know* this?

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

And the OVERWHELMING winners were Kiera Knightly and James Marsters?

That completely skeeves me. Give me 15 year old Olivia Hussey and 18 year old Leonard Whiting in the version I still consdier definitve.

[femmenerd.livejournal.com]

Ahem, funny how I screwed up the code and made everything bold just as I'm saying that I hardly ever use bold type.

Hmmmm, I don't think I've ever used bold type in a fic with the possible exception of chapter titles.

In fact, the only one of these abuses that I persist in perpetrating is using the occasional *asterisk* and I honestly don't have a good excuse for myself.

I primarily use italics for interior thoughts (which I do because I tend to write in the third person limited POV and do have to delineate when it is an actual internally "verbalized" thought). And I have used italics to denote flashbacks/dreams but not in awhile. I also use them to emphasize words but I try not to do it too often as it lessens the impact.

The main things that throw me out of the reading experience are any kind of abbreviations/netspeak and bold type or caps. The former is just F-ing wrong unless you are writing some sort of crack!fic that involves people emailing each other and the latter two are just extremely jarring to my tender eyes.

I have issues with em dashes and the abuse there of. Just ask my beta amybnnyc. Heh. At least I've read the Chicago Manual of style and know the difference between a dash, an en dash and an em dash.

Oh, and I forgot that I do the words mashed together thing also (albeit sparingly), although I think that this comes from my background in German where one frequently encounters compound nouns. And when I do that, I tend to italicize the cumulative expression.

But now, I feel like I'm just listing off my own behaviors rather than contributing to this discussion in a meaningful way. Your post has made me think though--the full prognosis just hasn't become clear yet.

One thing though that you didn't mention--and I don't know if it entirely fits here--but which I think about often, is how people space their sentences and/or paragraphs. I think it's obvious that people who don't put a space between speakers in dialogue are trying to make me lose my mind. But I feel as though I tend to have a great deal more spaces in my fic and for me this has to do with rhythm and the way that I hear the flow of text in my head. And I suppose it is reminiscent of poetry as well. In my case, this probably happens a lot because especially in my short fics, they tend to be mood pieces more than they are strictly narrative. I think this is also related to the fact that I tend to write fic that is very closely aligned with one character and so the perspective is much more intimate and therefore more malleable.

Oh my, I think this ramble needs to end now. *g*

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't have a good excuse for myself.

Well, imo, they're not abuses, and you don't need an excuse. This post just dilineate what I prefer to see and why I prefer to see it. However, if you yourself think there's a problem with *this*, then perhaps you do need to give it a little thought. /repetitive disclaiming

which I do because I tend to write in the third person limited POV and do have to delineate when it is an actual internally "verbalized" thought

This is an interesting distinction. My problem with some italicized thought in the past has been I read it and think, that thought wouldn't be coherent--wouldn't be internally verbalized--in such an such scenario. That thought there, for instance. When I read it happening I don't really think it words as complicated as "coherent" or "internally verbalized"; it's just the flash of an idea. So anyway, my point is, I try to keep internally verbalized thought to an absolute minimum, because I think most of us only rarely think in complete sentences or even words. But, if one does hold off on doing that too often, using it here and there could prove very effective, I bet.

I have issues with em dashes and the abuse there of. Just ask my beta amybnnyc. Heh. At least I've read the Chicago Manual of style and know the difference between a dash, an en dash and an em dash.

It's so funny people keep mentioning dashes, because I was going to do a whole separate post about dashes and punctuation. I have lots of trouble with them too--I use them too often. And I know the difference between en and em and think I know when to use which, but I think I'm going to throw it out there so we can all discuss how we do it or think it should be done. I'm like this discussion slut.

But now, I feel like I'm just listing off my own behaviors rather than contributing to this discussion in a meaningful way.

No! I felt like this was meaningful. The point, actually, was for me to spout off my own thoughts and for us to then spout off thoughts at eachother. I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong or what should or shouldn't be done. More disclaiming!

I think it's obvious that people who don't put a space between speakers in dialogue are trying to make me lose my mind.

Heh. Me too. I think space and how it is used is a very important concept in fiction, both online and off. It's interesting what you say about there being a lot of space in your fics, about rhythm, about hearing it like poetry. To me your fics are very snappy, very clean, very...I don't know how to say this other than pow! pow! pow!--not at all like I'm being shot, but like I'm being fed brief images--but not images, not pictures, but brief moments in time, or brief insights, brief but as powerful and complete as an image is. Anyway, lots of space works for a fic like that. A fic that weaves in and out around and about knitting everything into itself and spooling out of itself should be spaced differently. Both are beautiful forms, btw, but they require different approaches.

[alleynyc.livejournal.com]

The gold dust thing *killed* me.

[alleynyc.livejournal.com]

*god* dust. Yikes, I need to go to sleep.

[inalasahl]

But when some fic-authors use *asterisks* merely to emphasize a word, it doesn't appear to me to be trying something new with space or text-shape or anything like that. It appears to me to be just another way to emphasize a word, and in a way I find distracting and detrimental to the look of the text as a whole.
I would just like to point out that that's because it's not trying something new, it's trying something old. ASCII doesn't have italics, so people used asterisks to show what words were supposed to be in italics. This is what I was taught when I entered fandom in 1994, as I'm sure a lot of other people were. I use italics now that I can, but sometimes I still use asterisks, for example, on mail lists, because I know that not everyone has html enabled e-mail.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I meant to include in the post that I was aware the asterisk convention was a hold-over from lists, forums, etc that didn't support HTML.

I was trying to say that these ways of word emphasis don't seem to be included for the purpose they could have--disrupting the text, drawing the eye, etc. What would've furthered my point is that yes, instead of an effort to experiment with form or space, they seem to be left-overs from other posting forums, etc--less of a conscious effort to try something innovative, and more of just an ingrained way of doing things.

It's been pointed out to me since, however, that it's possible to look at internet text as a medium in and of itself, a medium completely different from printed text, in which case the textual history/tradition is just as valid a reason for keeping these conventions as spacial experimentation or innovation would be.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

[via metafandom]

I don't mind any of this in lj-posts, but unless I'm reading a story in a .txt file, I want to see emphasis with actual italics, not with asterisks or slashes or anything else. I find it mildly irritating, when I'm reading a story, to see emphasis with asterisks in a perfectly good html file, where italics can be coded.

I don't like reading large hunks of text in italics, though.

Capslock drives me nuts. Sorry, JKR.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. If you posted first to a mailing list and are now posting to your LJ or website, how much trouble is it to do a search and replace for asterisks to italics? It really doesn't take long.

ah, usenet, the crazy old days

[axiom_of_stripe]

i'm also dropping by from metafandom, because -- while i do agree with what you're saying about the visual effect of typography -- i am oldskool enough that many of the pre-html conventions are meaningful to me. i have a particular nostalgia for *this*, the most common emphatic typography where i used to hang out, because it allowed for differentiating between *this sort of emphasis* and *this* *sort* *of* *emphasis*. (it was very hard to not put an exclamation point on the end of that, by the way.) i did learn to see italics in /this way/ because the first slash pushes the letters over into the italics slant and the last one keeps them propped up so they don't just all fall over, you see.

additionally, while i don't expect to see these in a finished story any more, i still write in a plain text editor and use *this emphasis* for italics in my drafts; it's easier for me to read than html code when editing.

Re: ah, usenet, the crazy old days

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I'm going to copy what I answered to inalaslash, which is probably going to come out bad user name as I already forgot how to spell it. I should just edit my initial post, but now it's been a while, and no one will see the edit! So, here goes:

"Yeah, I meant to include in the post that I was aware the asterisk convention was a hold-over from lists, forums, etc that didn't support HTML.

I was trying to say that these ways of word emphasis don't seem to be included for the purpose they could have--disrupting the text, drawing the eye, etc. What would've furthered my point is that yes, instead of an effort to experiment with form or space, they seem to be left-overs from other posting forums, etc--less of a conscious effort to try something innovative, and more of just an ingrained way of doing things.

It's been pointed out to me since, however, that it's possible to look at internet text as a medium in and of itself, a medium completely different from printed text, in which case the textual history/tradition is just as valid a reason for keeping these conventions as spacial experimentation or innovation would be. "

Also:

it allowed for differentiating between *this sort of emphasis* and *this* *sort* *of* *emphasis*.

I hadn't thought of that. I guess I'm of the opinion that that sort of emphasis can be described through the narrative and not by the text itself. Doing it that way lacks punch, but I feel *doing* *it* *this* *way* lacks punch; the repetition of the asteriks gives all the words less emphasis than if just one was emphasized.

i did learn to see italics in /this way/ because the first slash pushes the letters over into the italics slant and the last one keeps them propped up so they don't just all fall over, you see.

heh. That's cute.

Hi, I'm new to you!

[altyronsmaker.livejournal.com]

here via metafandom

Grrr. The 'visuality' (umm, is that a word?!?!?) of text ticks me off when I'm reading it. The bold stuff, the underscored stuff, the underlined, asterisked, slashed (not ships but the // thingies), tilda'd and dashed emphases yank me out of a story faster than Apollo Ohno on a short track... ok, make that really fast.

Italics suffice. Always have, always will. And when you want to emphasize a word that is already italicized? UNitalicize it. Simple, easy peasey.

Also, book titles are italicized also.

Re: Hi, I'm new to you!

[tkp.livejournal.com]

here via metafandom

Should've thought of that before I put a potentially interesting meta discussion in with bits about my arm-pits.

Also, book titles are italicized also.

I had not realized before that underlining was actually only a type-writing convention used to signify to the publisher that a title was meant to be italicized. I had learned in school that it was appropriate to underline book titles--because, of course, I wrote by hand in school. It seems many things, such as asterisks and tildes etc, are similar conventions that convert to italics elsewhere. I knew of course that they were used to represent italics when html was not available.

But that doesn't stop them from drawing me out of the text.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Well, being keen on web accessibility, I prefer to use the <em> tag rather than <i>, but for your purposes it all counts as italic.

I try to be light on italics, just as I am light on exclamation marks. When I was young and foolish I occasionally used <strong> (which displays as bold) for extra emphasis, but I saw the light eventually and I think I've got rid of them all now. And I find people marking up thoughts in italic excessively annoying for some reason.

But I must be one of the worst offenders in fandom when it comes to fancily marked up twittery within the text. The Telegram I used in Wild Demonic Fauna (http://www.ficbitch.com/peasants_plot/WildDemonicFauna.html#telegram) being probably my most excessive example. But there are others. I've had snippets of newspapers, a hand written card, book contents, extracts of letters... What can I say? I like writing the code.

[gloss]

Well, being keen on web accessibility, I prefer to use the em tag rather than i
Thank you!