lettered | It's been done

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It's been done

About ten years ago, when I was sixteen, I was spending a significant portion every day looking for an objective morality. I didn’t feel I could definitively tell right from wrong. It bothered me, so I thought that I could find a “platform” from which to view the world, I could determine the difference in any situation. I spent a lot of time thinking and writing about it.

Later I found out what philosophy and religion were about.

That’s my best example of having Things To Say about something, then realizing Things had already been said. Finding out you’ve been chipping away at a question that is pretty much the central theme of all abstract thought in the history of the world can be kind of a downer, actually. Gets to be even more of a downer when you realize that people have always been chipping away at all the questions you’ll ever think to ask, and they’ve chipped deeper than you’re going to.

It makes you wonder, what’s the point? Previous great minds have already thought of everything I’m going to say. Furthermore, they have read all that previous to previous great minds have had to say and built their thoughts on those thoughts. I don’t have time, for one thing, to read previous great minds and previous-previous great minds and build my own thoughts on theirs.

One thing that always cheers me up is T.S. Eliot. I don’t really know what his poems are supposed to be about, but to me they’re about all this intelligent, meaningful stuff that has come before, overwhelming you until you’re unable to say anything in the present time. To me those poems are about the fear of saying anything, fear of what you say being meaningless. Yet they’re some of the most meaningful poems I’ve read. Here was someone who obviously recognized this profound fear of being pointless, but he said something and made a point.

So on the one hand, I feel intimidated by T. S. Eliot. But then I think about T. S. Eliot on El Jay, looking at Milton macros which say, “I have a Lucifer; your argument is invalid!” And T. S. Eliot sort of shuffles and thinks, “Aw, Milton, my argument totally is invalid! I’ll just erase my post now.”

It’s not that I think I decide to keep my post/continue thinking about moral objectivity/not give up writing/always say what I think because I might be the next T. S. Eliot. It’s more like, “Dude, if Eliot felt intimidated, we probably all are.” May as well just suck it up, fuck it, and do this shit. You know?

The ironic thing is a lot of people may feel the intimidation thing, except you wouldn’t know it. If you feel it keenly, then you are aware that others have felt it before you and expressed it better. But if everyone felt that way all the time then T. S. Eliot would never post to El Jay.

So, do you feel the intimidation thing? On LJ? In writing? In real life? How do you get past it? Do you think about someone who inspires you, or does that make it worse? Who/what is it that intimidates you? What do you want to do with your life, anyway?

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It's been done
That’s my best example of having Things To Say about something, then realizing Things had already been said.

Ha, yep, I remember quite clearly the moment I realized I'd basically reinvented Spinoza...or, that is to say, a fraction of Spinoza. I actually found it kind of neat, though. Annoying, sure, that I was never going to be recognized for my astounding insights, but tickled that I was following the same path as a certified Smart Dude.

It makes you wonder, what’s the point?

What's the point of thinking? Hell, what's the point of doing crossword puzzles?

One thing that always cheers me up is T.S. Eliot. I don’t really know what his poems are supposed to be about, but to me they’re about all this intelligent, meaningful stuff that has come before, overwhelming you until you’re unable to say anything in the present time. To me those poems are about the fear of saying anything, fear of what you say being meaningless. Yet they’re some of the most meaningful poems I’ve read. Here was someone who obviously recognized this profound fear of being pointless, but he said something and made a point.

Yay Eliot. I think there's a danger, when looking at All That Has Come Before, of...not noticing the present. Of looking at centuries of philosophers who have examined the concept of Christian love (for eg., because there was an article about it in the Times this week), and thinking, "Well, gee, nothing more to say about those abstracts," and failing to notice the most exciting question of all, which is, IMO, "How are these abstracts relevant right now? How are they playing out, or failing to, right here?" And that is what's always new. It's what T.S. Eliot discovered. He pinned down his moment. I guess it's also what good preachers do every week, isn't it?

"Noticing the present", i.e. cultural studies, is still the redheaded stepchild in many academic circles. Heh, just as English lit. was a hundred years ago. I've been talking over email with

quinara about ways of conceptualizing Greek and Roman Studies. You can talk about studying a literary "tradition", which supposes a hierarchy with Homer et al at the top, or you can talk about "reception studies", which emphasizes responses to and reimaginings of the classics, but which, as a term, is still problematically passive. Quin's interested in looking at possible contemporary equivalents of the epic form — "Where did epic go?" essentially. One of her answers is, "Well, how about serialized television?"

Er. If I had a point when I started, I seem to have lost it. Something about, "When you think you have nothing new to say, just bash open the limits of what's acceptable to talk about"? Or something. *g* /ramble

So on the one hand, I feel intimidated by T. S. Eliot. But then I think about T. S. Eliot on El Jay, looking at Milton macros which say, “I have a Lucifer; your argument is invalid!” And T. S. Eliot sort of shuffles and thinks, “Aw, Milton, my argument totally is invalid! I’ll just erase my post now.”

I ♥ you. You're getting metaquoted.

So, do you feel the intimidation thing?

Augh. I haven't read enough, I have nothing new, I have nothing amazing. I'm (slowly) learning not even to let myself consider whether these are true, but to just yell, "Imposter Syndrome!" and smack it down. I have the luxury of doing that, not being a professional academic shooting for tenure track. If my ideas aren't dazzling, my career isn't hinging on them.

On LJ?

Oh, oh, this ties in with a post on gazes I keep meaning to write. I feel like a few years ago, there was a ton of fannish meta on fanfic and slash and whatnot taking Hollywood's male gaze and chucking it out the window and doing our own gazing. But lately I feel like we're not cowed by Hollywood, but by each other! We're afraid the Acafans (booga booga) are staring at us; we're afraid Metafandom is judging both our meta and our squee, because we're unwittingly redundant, or ignorant, or ass-showing. We're way more conscious of being looked at these days. It's weird. I'm sure it's not universally true; it's not even true for me, much, but I've observed it out and about. Hm. Have you?

In writing?

I barrel on. I post stories I know aren't perfect, I cringe and resign myself to cringing. I keep trying. Most days, I'm here to learn, not here to impress, so it works out.

In real life?

If by real life, you mean career...still workin' on that.

Do you think about someone who inspires you, or does that make it worse? Who/what is it that intimidates you?

Nobody in fandom intimidates me. This is because I've approached all the people who might do so and started conversations with them, and they've all turned out to be variations on bouncy, enthused, generous and adorable. I don't care if I'm not as smart as some of them. That's just reality.

When I'm writing fic, I do think about who I want to be as good as, and which aspects of their talent I can match, and that inspires me.

What do you want to do with your life, anyway?

Fart around, write something neat, and inspire somebody else to write something neat. It's already happened. Next up: write something NEATER!

This post is actually the first page of almost 30 pages of navel gazing, which I'm still adding to. Over 6 months ago I sat down to write about Star Trek and I couldn't, because I have too much to say about everything, ever. So instead of trying to stay on topic, I let my brain wander. I'm tired of being too intimidated, of feeling irrelevant, of having too much to say so not saying anything at all, of never posting to lj/dw, of moping about my inability to be pithy. It is funny though that my opening sally in my efforts to "just say stuff already!" is about how hard it is for me to say stuff.

What's the point of thinking?

Well, yes. That's what I mean. I never get suicidal, but I do get rather depressingly existential.

"How are these abstracts relevant right now? How are they playing out, or failing to, right here?" And that is what's always new. It's what T.S. Eliot discovered. He pinned down his moment.

Good point.

Quin's interested in looking at possible contemporary equivalents of the epic form — "Where did epic go?" essentially. One of her answers is, "Well, how about serialized television?"

Oh, Stulti, my heart. I've been thinking about this a lot recently because of our Outdoor Trek project. my_daroga and I have been trying to draw parallels between Shakespeare and Star Trek. We all accept Shakespeare as part of our cultural history, but Star Trek--though the history is not as long--is just as much a part of our communal consciousness. We recognize it even when we've never seen it, just as we do Shakespeare. Why not approach this newer classic with a similar attitude.

Someone suggested to us that we do a TV night--perform several different shows. Someone else pointed out to me that this was particularly interesting due to the changes TV is undergoing--it's starting to look like it will eventually be obsolete in the face of DVDs and the internet. So why not pull it in the other direction, too? There's so much to be said about where theater and literature have gone within the last century. I love the idea of playing with that.

"When you think you have nothing new to say, just bash open the limits of what's acceptable to talk about"

Or just start talking. Even if it's an idea that's been hashed over before, it hasn't been hashed over with

stultiloquentia, for instance.

Have you?

Well . . . I notice less fannish meta etc etc, but I am also around fandom less because I have less time. I have also noticed some fandoms are given to meta, whereas others aren't. BtVS seemed meta heavy, just as it is style heavy, as we have previously discussed. I also notice more fandom flitting, but I'm unable to determine if attitudes have changed, canon has changed, people accessing fandom have changed, or circles I run in have changed. Probably all of the above?

I saw someone on lj who claimed she was not a fan, even though she does a fair amount of fannish things. She said she did not want to be identified as a fan because fans do a lot of stupid things--by this she did not seem to mean fanworks, but the misogyny, racism, and isms in general that she sees go on in fandom. my_daroga and I discussed this and found it very interesting, because although a lot of that does go on in fandom, both of us feel you are more likely to get called on being on an "ism" in fandom than in any other community of which we've been a part. There's constant debate about it, a lot of it ugly, but that debate is going on in fandom. You don't see Elizabeth Bear, et al being called out by contemporary fantasy writers; you see her getting called out in fandom. Etc.

I think this is a great thing (as ugly as it can sometimes be), and it makes me proud to be a part of fandom. I'd prefer to get called out than hurt people and never address it; I'd prefer for massive horrible things to happen out in the open than for there to be silence. But despite my own feeling on this, I would not be surprised if the horrible things that have happened contribute to a culture of silence--which is of course the opposite of what we want; it's the reason people get called out; it's the reason racefail became so huge. We do not want silence. We're not going to be silent any more, that's the whole point.

Anyway, I know that's not necessarily what you were talking about, but I do think speaking out in some respects has made others shut up--even about things they don't see as directly related to an ism. This is the fault of those who are shutting up; it's not the right way to deal with stuff. But I think it's happened.

Most days, I'm here to learn, not here to impress, so it works out.

I don't think that will ever be my natural state. I try really hard to be open and just to learn, to listen and to revel in other people's genius, but my default state is always wanting to show off. Intellectually, I always choose to learn over to impress, but emotionally, I'm more pleased when I can impress. I don't know how to turn that instinct off, though I try.

Wow, that's a lot of insecurity. The weird thing about me and self esteem is that I think I am clever. I'm just convinced no one else will ever find out that I am clever if they are speaking to me face to face.

If by real life, you mean career...still workin' on that.

No, actually! I mean just in general, conversationally. This was one reason I had trouble in college. I wanted to join in intellectual conversations, but I'm pretty inept orally.

Next up: write something NEATER!

Awesome!

P.S. I have something I've been meaning to send you. Can you email me your address again? Thanks!

So, do you feel the intimidation thing?

Oh, absolutely. The need to impress runs deep within me. Sometimes I wonder if it's a side effect of my parents' divorce. To be good enough, to become indispensable -- it fits the profile, doesn't it.

To this day, I'm still trying to find a way to get past this without picking up cynicism along the way.

But yes, I did have a similar moment when I read Descartes. I was *stunned* by how deeply the man thought. For the first time I realized we read about these men hundreds of years later because they were indeed Great Thinkers. I stand in awe.

As an aside, as I continue to 'grow up', I find myself admiring more and more, people who do whatever the hell they want to do. There'll always be critics -- accurate or otherwise. But why let other people tie up your hands?

I find myself admiring more and more, people who do whatever the hell they want to do.

I agree. I'm trying more often to just say what's on my mind, instead of getting overwhelmed by how much there is behind anyone word I say, and whether it's been said before. Let's keep doing it!

Agreed! :)

I get terrifyingly intimidated--especially around folks like you and K and S, because your brains all work so differently from mine that I can't even comprehend thinking about ~thinking about the things you...think about. I don't analyze things as quickly or in the same ways that I remember you all doing, so I never wanted to watch movies with you guys and stuff, I never engaged much in conversation because I couldn't keep up in the same ways and of course, eventually, I kind of just felt like I should just hide down in my hole there and stay away.

So yes. Intimidation about being pointless for me reaches crippling and life-changing levels.

I'm not sure I feel intimidated so much as irrelevant.

Oh, I recognize the feeling of irrelevance Rahirah mentions. But I'm also pretty fatalistic - nobody is ever really going to solve The Big Quandaries - so I can feel that it's a valid exercise to just mentally work them out yourself even if you're treading on old ground. Most of the discussions I enter are really about things percolating in my head than anything on the page...

I love it when I find I think i'm asking a new question thats been asked before. That means at that point in time... someone had the same brain as me. makes me think!

I'm sorry you felt that way :o(

I think insight, intelligence, cleverness et all manifest in different ways. For instance, I think I'm just as smart as K, but she tends to be much quicker and more articulate. She'll make a lot of connections and grasp things at once, and use a far more sophisticate vocabulary to describe them. I tend to be slow and plodding. I take a long time to assemble my thoughts and when I do, they don't sound very shiny. But I definitely can see things she doesn't, you know?

In the end I think we should just try to say what we think, because all of *are* unique. Inevitably our opinion is going to be special in some way. But it's hard not to be scared or feel irrelevant :o(

Well, for me, I'm intimidated because I might be irrelevant.

I can feel that it's a valid exercise to just mentally work them out yourself even if you're treading on old ground.

I think so too.

stultiloquentia just made the point that now one has over walked that old ground RIGHT NOW. It's important to find out how even ideas that have been rehashed a million times are relevant at the present. Which is encouraging.

Someone having the same brain as me makes me sad! I just want to be a unique snowflake way too much.

It just makes me grumpy. *g*

I completely feel the intimidation thing.
However, now I am armed with your wonderful image of T.S. Eliot on El Jay and I feel that'll help. :)

Heeeeeee. I wish he would have liked it here.

In the El Jay the women come and go talking of Rushdie an' J. Lo . . .

(btw, did you get my FB/email about my ice cream party this weekend? You are totally invited!)

I did :o( Sorry for the late reply. I work every Sunday! So not a good day for me. But I'd like to hang some time.

If you're interested, our next book for our club is Remarkable Creatures, by Tracy Chevalier. It's not due to be read until the end of September. I haven't started it yet, but I suspect you might like it...

No need to apologize, I understand.

hmm, I will see if I can track down Remarkable Creatures. Now that I'm done working at Carkeek I suddenly have all this time in which I can finally read. :)

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