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What we're looking for (in fandom)
Wanting a big flist (or reading circle) always seemed to me to be missing the point. Except it's not, really.
Fandom--or blogging, whatever you do with these things, really--isn't about popularity, right? It's about expression and community. If you have a small circle who listens, and provides thoughtful insights, you have what you came for. Except you don't, really.
I once read a definition of the internet (I forgot whose it is. If anyone knows, please tell me) that went like this:
Person A: I...sometimes I--I have been known to wear a rubber chicken on my head.
Person B: You do? I--I do that sometimes!
Person C: Rubber chicken on your head? Oh, I do that all the time! Let's form a club!
And that, I think, is what we came here for. Many of us have those in our lives who love us. Some number of us have those in our lives who will listen when we go off on a fandom tangent. A fraction of that number have those in our lives who can identify with fannishness, and very few of us have those in our lives who can identify to the extent that they have someone in the same fandom as them, and so on.
Once you have built your circle on a blogging site, all the sudden you have all sorts of people who can identify with your fannishness, and then a set within those who are into the particular fandom you happen to be in, and then a set within those who can identify with your thoughts and experience. But the truth is, the bigger your circle is, the more likely you are to have someone who will see you say, "I like to wear rubber chickens", whose response is, "wow, I like to do that too!"
I don't need for people to identify with me all the time. Intellectually, I would prefer to have an audience of thoughtful people who don't necessarily always agree with what I say, but consider it respectfully and provide their own opinions. I prefer for people to say, "Really, rubber chickens? That is so interesting! Why?" than just mindlessly agree and enthuse. Of course, above all, I would prefer a Person B who says, "I do too. Why do we like to wear rubber chickens?" and a Person C who says, "Let's analyze!" But if given a choice--just between people who identify but don't analyze, and people who don't identify but will listen and consider things with me--I would choose people who are thoughtful and listen any day over an audience of mindlessly bobbing heads.
But that doesn't change the fact that it is a comfort, in the gut, for me to be able to say, "I wear rubber chickens," and for someone else to say, "I do too!" That's what's thrilling about fandom, really.
Now, it's possible to come to a point of identification through an intellectual analysis of some particular taste. For example:
Person A: I like to wear rubber chickens.
Person B: Really, rubber chickens? That's so interesting. Why?
Person C: Let's analyze! I, for instance, wear a stuffed parrot attached to my shoulder.
Person A: There seems to be an avian motif!
Person B: How stimulating! For although my sartorial choices do not reflect this avian motif, I often contemplate flight, in waking hours!
Person C: And I am invigorated by aeronautical themes.
Person A: Let's start a club!
But you see how that interaction is less direct. It's comforting in it's own way; it's very cool. But it's not that direct wire to your hormones you get, when you have this private thing you think is yours, and then you find that someone shares it. I mean, I think that this is a biological, evolution-directed thing, this gut response to human identification. We are comforted by people doing what we do, feeling what we feel.
I'm not saying I want a big circle, not really; nor am I saying my list is particularly small. As I said, I would rather people who will listen and who can think, anyway, and I feel that that is you all. But sometimes it is true that I think of something to post, and then think: what is the point, really? People may think that it is interesting, but they will not have had that experience, and so can't say, "YEAH, RUBBER CHICKENS!"; they can only say, "Really, rubber chickens? That's so interesting. Why?" and then I will have to explain, and then I will not get my gut comfort.
Probably, the problem is I want fandom to be both comfort food and brain food, and it really can't always be both.
Fandom--or blogging, whatever you do with these things, really--isn't about popularity, right? It's about expression and community. If you have a small circle who listens, and provides thoughtful insights, you have what you came for. Except you don't, really.
I once read a definition of the internet (I forgot whose it is. If anyone knows, please tell me) that went like this:
Person A: I...sometimes I--I have been known to wear a rubber chicken on my head.
Person B: You do? I--I do that sometimes!
Person C: Rubber chicken on your head? Oh, I do that all the time! Let's form a club!
And that, I think, is what we came here for. Many of us have those in our lives who love us. Some number of us have those in our lives who will listen when we go off on a fandom tangent. A fraction of that number have those in our lives who can identify with fannishness, and very few of us have those in our lives who can identify to the extent that they have someone in the same fandom as them, and so on.
Once you have built your circle on a blogging site, all the sudden you have all sorts of people who can identify with your fannishness, and then a set within those who are into the particular fandom you happen to be in, and then a set within those who can identify with your thoughts and experience. But the truth is, the bigger your circle is, the more likely you are to have someone who will see you say, "I like to wear rubber chickens", whose response is, "wow, I like to do that too!"
I don't need for people to identify with me all the time. Intellectually, I would prefer to have an audience of thoughtful people who don't necessarily always agree with what I say, but consider it respectfully and provide their own opinions. I prefer for people to say, "Really, rubber chickens? That is so interesting! Why?" than just mindlessly agree and enthuse. Of course, above all, I would prefer a Person B who says, "I do too. Why do we like to wear rubber chickens?" and a Person C who says, "Let's analyze!" But if given a choice--just between people who identify but don't analyze, and people who don't identify but will listen and consider things with me--I would choose people who are thoughtful and listen any day over an audience of mindlessly bobbing heads.
But that doesn't change the fact that it is a comfort, in the gut, for me to be able to say, "I wear rubber chickens," and for someone else to say, "I do too!" That's what's thrilling about fandom, really.
Now, it's possible to come to a point of identification through an intellectual analysis of some particular taste. For example:
Person A: I like to wear rubber chickens.
Person B: Really, rubber chickens? That's so interesting. Why?
Person C: Let's analyze! I, for instance, wear a stuffed parrot attached to my shoulder.
Person A: There seems to be an avian motif!
Person B: How stimulating! For although my sartorial choices do not reflect this avian motif, I often contemplate flight, in waking hours!
Person C: And I am invigorated by aeronautical themes.
Person A: Let's start a club!
But you see how that interaction is less direct. It's comforting in it's own way; it's very cool. But it's not that direct wire to your hormones you get, when you have this private thing you think is yours, and then you find that someone shares it. I mean, I think that this is a biological, evolution-directed thing, this gut response to human identification. We are comforted by people doing what we do, feeling what we feel.
I'm not saying I want a big circle, not really; nor am I saying my list is particularly small. As I said, I would rather people who will listen and who can think, anyway, and I feel that that is you all. But sometimes it is true that I think of something to post, and then think: what is the point, really? People may think that it is interesting, but they will not have had that experience, and so can't say, "YEAH, RUBBER CHICKENS!"; they can only say, "Really, rubber chickens? That's so interesting. Why?" and then I will have to explain, and then I will not get my gut comfort.
Probably, the problem is I want fandom to be both comfort food and brain food, and it really can't always be both.
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Start talking about it. You never know who might come out of the woodwork. I am going to Con.txt in DC this June and there may be (schedule hasn't been finalized yet) a whole panel on Victorians! I will report back. Unless you want to come. My room has one pillow left.
Less specifically, I hear you about the comfort food, and the needing fellow niche dwellers. My own problem is that I mainly want to squee about other people's fanfic, and then I feel like I must look like a brown-noser.
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Last, I just don't think the book's that great. I LOVE the social issues, and really respect Gaskell for wanting to talk about them. I also think there's a really intense sexuality about it which is surprising for a novel of its era, but the repression that seems to prevalent in said era makes the sexual overtones read really strangely. And that, I feel, was because EG just wasn't that great of a writer. I just don't think the book is that good, although I love parts of what it's trying to say.
I also had trouble liking the main character. I thought she was a total badass in some ways but in other ways she drove me up the wall. I think maybe we were *supposed* to see her annoying parts as character flaws, and see that she comes to terms with them in the end, but I was pretty annoyed. I'd like to do a fic based solely on the book, though, that deals with that a little more to my satisfaction.
But yeah, I planned on talking about N&S even though I didn't think anyone on my lj would care. Whenever I go to do it, though, I think about how random it will seem, and then I come up with meta about how I use lj/dw, fandom, etc. I have these huge, long Star Trek musings I never got around to writing up because when I went to write them I had to write about the nature of human thought first, and my feelings towards science second, and then I started writing about tidepools...and none of this was actually what I wanted to talk about, which was Star Trek, so I didn't post any of that, either. my_daroga says she lives in hope that one day I will be able to talk about the things going on in my brain.
I haven't read Shirley or Hard Times, but I've been meaning to. I want to give Gaskell another chance--you said Mary Barton was good, right? To fill my Victorian voids I'm reading Daniel Deronda right now--it's REALLY interesting, but Eliot is such slow going.
I don't know what con.txt is, but I saw you post about it. I wanted to go just because I thought it would be so cool to hang out with you! But it looked like it was this summer which is problematic because we're doing Star Trek in the Park. I'll look into it though, because ...that victorian panel!!!!!!!!!
I only ever really felt fannish about fanfic in the case of mistful, but I do know what you mean. I felt like a great big old suck up, which is why I tried to make it clear that I considered the fanfic a canon of it's own. Sure, I think the author is amazing and it's so cool she's online and I get to talk to her. But what I'm really interested in is her WORK, and I want to talk about it the way I talk about other canon. I'm going to read that novel fanfic you like--I've been meaning to forever.
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I have been writing Buffy meta lately. I seem to have become fannish about it all over again.
Also, my brain is always happy to cozy up to your brain.
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Your brain is awesome, R.
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Yeah, exactly. I mean. I myself am proof that I will fan in a locked room without anyone in it. I've been fannish ever since I was in 3rd grade, when I started writing my first fanfic. I went on writing fanfic and meta and remixing bits of canon ad naseum for 10 years, without realizing other people did the exact same thing. But then I found out they were there, and it was so comforting. It's not what I need in order to be a fan, but it just feels so damn good, that when I don't have it I start to think, "What's the point?" which is sad.
I'm in the situation now of being in a smaller fandom. It's not miniscule; there's a forum where there's actually active conversation, and new members every day. I say small because compared to something like Buffy, it is a dust mote. But the real problem is--here are all these people interested in what I'm interested in, but they do not think like I do. I feel like a total radical--and I'm not, really!
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1.) The gut-reaction enthusiasts. "OMG, YOU THINK KIRK AND SPOCK WERE BONDED IN THE MOVIES TOO?"
2.) The enthusiasts who meta. "WE AGREE THEY WERE BONDED. When did it occur and what evidence is there?"
3.) The ones who respectfully disagree. "I don't think they were bonded, why do you believe so?"
4.) The non ST fandom supporters. "I'm not in your fandom, but that's some hot men you've got there and I like your lj layout, you kooky trekkie, you."
But then there are days when I hesitate before posting about some meta thingamabob, because some days I really just want happy gut feelings about what I post and not people debating or questioning, and other times I want debates and discussion and instead get nothing but "YAY I AGREE 100%" So you are correct, as you can't always get both.
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Oh, but what I mean is size totally does matter. Sure, intellectually, what I really want is quality. But down in my gut, what I really want is your 1). And you are more likely to have more people who just happen to agree with you if your list is larger.
Now, if you begin in fandom by going about saying, "I think K/S are bonded in the movies--who's with me?!?" you're going to find people who agree with you, and you'll friend those people. Thus, even if you don't have a huge flist, you'll have a lot of people on there who are gut-reaction enthusiasts.
But what I'm talking about is okay, now you have this list. You want to be able to just talk to them, and say, "You know, besides K/S being bonded in the movies, I like to wear a chicken on my head." And you want a lot of that list to say "yeah! Woohoo! Me too!" But instead, you will be met with silence, and o_0, and "....bigmamag, we are here for the K/S. Leave your chickens alone." If your list is cool (mine totally is!) you'll get the people saying, "I don't wear chickens, but that's interesting. Why do you do it?"
And again, that's fine! I like to discuss my tastes and I love that people are interested in them. But where are my people saying, "me too! Let's form a club!!!" ...They're not there. I have to go out and say, "I LIKE TO WEAR CHICKENS! WHO'S WITH ME?" and gather a whole new set of friends, so you can have some 1)s and 2)s to wax poetic about chickens with. And this gets wearisome. Because I love my flist. I don't need any more people on it. I'd love to just sit and chat with them for hours, and yet right now I can't talk about Victorian industrialization, because while some will be interested from an intellectual perspective, no one actually cares, deep down in their guts.
I see some BNFs getting lonely, because either they're loved unconditionally or hated beyond reason.
Er...I don't really see that. BNFs certainly get disproportionate amounts of people who agree with what they say without thinking about it, and people who disagree with what they say just because they're BNFs. But . . . there are plenty of normal people who are not struck dumb and starry eyed by BNFs, and those people will make legitimate arguments and inquiries to a BNF's perspective. I mean, most BNFs I've seen--whether I like them or not--aren't imperial masters with scads of drooling mindless sycophants.
because some days I really just want happy gut feelings about what I post and not people debating or questioning, and other times I want debates and discussion and instead get nothing but "YAY I AGREE 100%"
I agree 100%!!! Right now I'm in the position of being in a small fandom no one on my flist will be interested in. I want to go on and on about it, and I'm sure some people on my flist would be interested in what I have to say about it. But they're not in the fandom, so while I'd be interested in their opinions and stuff, it's not the same, you know?
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For me it's not so much a comfort to have people agree with what I think, but to have people close enough in interest and high enough in enthusiasm that I can indulge both my need for socializing and my need for whatever my fandomish interest is at the same time.
For example let's say I watch Farscape, and I love it. I start thinking about Farscape all the time. When I go to work and my patient gets sick I think "vomit is the glue of the uncharted territories!" Maybe I even say this aloud, and my coworkers all look at me like I've grown a third head. So I shut up. Except now I'm bursting with all my farscape thoughts. So I go online and meet this person who says "Oh, hello. Yes I am a huge Farscape fan too!" Well now I can talk about vomit and pregnant leviathans to my hearts content.
Only wait! Let's say I'm most intersted in the John/Aeryn relationship. That is really the thing I think about most. Now I ask my new Farscape friend "How do you feel about John/Aeryn?" and she says "John/Aeryn isn't really that interesting to me. I want to talk about Chiana/Jothee." Well now I'm back to not being able to talk about that thing I'm really interested in.
Perhaps we could get into a debate about the pros and cons of John/Aeryn vs. Chiana/Jothee, and that would be great! But if the whole things just going to be "Your pairing is sucky" well then not only am I not getting to talk in depth about my John/Aeryn interest but I am also feeling like this person has been a little rude to me by insulting my tastes and I am feeling a little hurt by that.
Of course I try not let all manner of rude people I meet on the internet bother me. For there are wicked cool people here too. There is you!
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Well, this is really what I mean. The huger your flist, the more likely it is that one day, even though you've never really posted about anything except Harry Potter, you could post, "Also, I really love Farscape!" and someone will like Farscape too. If you have a flist of 2 people who you've met through HP, that will be less likely. If you have a flist of 2,000, there's bound to be someone in there who has just happened to watch Farscape too.
But yeah, it's not just whether someone on your flist will be interested in the fandom. It's whether someone will be interested in the particular thing in fandom you like. So if it's a ship you prefer, you sort of want other people who like that ship.
But I mean, let's go even deeper. What if what you like about that ship is the way Aeryn totally wears the pants in that relationship? And what if other people you meet all like to read that ship as extremely heteronormative? E.g., they all want to write fanfic about Aeryn being a swooning damsel in distress, with Crichton coming to save her, and then they have sex, in missionary position, you know what I mean? Then it can be almost the same problem as if they loved a different ship. You could say, "Let's talk about the queerness of John/Aeryn", and they'll say, "The queerness of the ship isn't that interesting to me. Let's talk about how many babies they have." You're still back to not being able to talk about that thing you're really interested in.
Also, that person might be cool and debate with you queer!John/Aeryn vs. normative!John/Aeryn, but you might also just eventually end up with the other person saying, "queer!John/Aeryn is sucky!" and then you don't get to talk in depth about your ideas, and you also realize the other person is rude.
So, no, you don't want to gather people around yourself who merely agree with you. But you want people who are excited about what you're excited about, and then ideally, people excited in the way you're excited. Now, sometimes we aren't that specific in our tastes. We just love John/Aeryn (I do, by the way!) and any talking about it suits us.
For a while. Wouldn't everyone wanting to making Aeryn wear dresses eventually become annoying? I know that in Buffy fandom, I loved loved loved Buffy/Angel. I loved anything Buffy/Angel. But eventually lots of B/A fen became exhausting to me, because it was all "soulmates" and "one true love" and "they will never love anyone else" and "together 4eva!" and...I was not like that. There were awesome people who were all "together 4eva!" who also saw what I was saying, and we could have great conversations. Luckily, there were also lots and lots of B/A fans who were not "together 4eva!" at all. But were I to become trapped in the portion of fandom who did feel that way and didn't see my side of things, I'd've eventually become heartily sick!
Also--hello, Essie! How've you been?