lettered: (Default)
It's Lion Turtles all the way down ([personal profile] lettered) wrote2006-09-26 02:26 pm

Rant On Characterization!

When I first started reading fanfic, around 6 years ago, I read a lot of character bashing. It always kind of boggled me. It seemed obvious that the writer couldn't possibly believe that that was how such and so a character really was in canon, but rather that the writer was pushing an agenda: mongering hate for a character they didn't like, or what was more distasteful to me, for a character that was competition for their 'ship of choice. Now, I say it was confusing for me. It was also frustrating for me, because I would prefer to see the characters as they were actually portrayed in canon.

So when, actually about 5 years later, I found lj, where everyone talks about fic and fic writing and is much more intelligent on average, I was really pleased to find that many people actually dislike bashing. Many people not only dislike the negative motivations on the part of the writer, but actually view bashing as bad writing, because it doesn't hold to canon, because it is about the writer's preferences, because it's an easy way out for writing a character you don't like, instead of taking the time to understand them. In fact, around the parts of fandom in which I play, this is pretty much taken for granted. Bashing is in bad taste, a squick, a big no-no. And man, is it nice to be around people who feel that way.

Okay, but most of us still dislike certain characters. Instead of bashing, the number one solution is not to write said characters. But say the character you hate is Spike, and the characters you absolutely love happen to be Buffy and Angel, and you want to do a fic in which Buffy comes to LA mid-AtS S5 and gradually picks up a relationship again with Angel. If you want to write that scenario, pretty much, imo, you're going to be writing some Spike, or at least writing characters talking about Spike. Saying, "pretend Spike didn't come back to life" is, in some ways, just plain lazy (bad) writing. Having Spike just not appear or not come up at all is bad writing, because it doesn't take in to consideration what's going on in canon (unless there is a good excuse, in which case describing the excuse will involve writing about Spike). Mentioning Spike, or having him appear briefly, without him being a significant factor in Buffy's life, Buffy's feeling, Buffy's relationship with Angel, Angel's life, Angel's feelings, and Angel's feelings for Buffy, is, imo, a form of bashing. Buffy comes to L.A. and sees him alive for the first time since Sunnydale, and the only thing important going on is whatever's up with her and Angel? That diminishes what Spike and Buffy had, that diminishes Spike, and that diminishes everything Buffy's been through in the last few years.

Okay, so, if you're set on doing your B/A fic during these times and these particular circumstances, if you're going to write a good fanfic, a well-written fic without bashing, what a writer should do is make the attempt. Make the attempt to write Spike, even though you don't like him. Make the attempt to be fair to him. Make the attempt to understand him. Make the attempt to respect B/S. Make the attempt to sympahtize with B/S. Try to write these characters in a way that's true to who they really are, in a way that takes into considerations the feeling they have for each other, and show how they're moving on from each other, and why--or how they're not moving on, how they will always have a something, but why Buffy's decided to be with Angel now, or whatever. Make the attempt.

Except, sometimes, I just hate that.

Bit of a hypocrite. I've written characters I don't like, characters with whom I don't sympathize, and/or characters whom I don't feel I understand as well as I ought. When I write those characters, I try to like them, or try to sympathize, or try to understand. I've had mixed success--sometimes I feel like I really did a character justice, sometimes not.

It's hit and miss all over. I've read Angel in fics by people who claim Angel is a character they tend to feel apathy towards, and I've liked their portrayal of Angel. But what's really bad, what really makes me feel pukey, is when a writer tries, and doesn't quite make it. A writer who feels apathetic toward Xander, or doesn't understand Xander, or hates Xander, but tries to be fair to him. A writer who think B/A is lame, but understands it's very much a part of both Buffy and Angel, so tries to take that into account in their B/S fic. Tries, and doesn't quite come up to snuff. It's more unpleasant to me than having a character just written out, or having the writer pretend that the character doesn't exist at all. To me, it's even more unpleasant than bashing.

When a character gets bashed, it's like I can tune it out. If Buffy is a bitch who's breaking up Spike and Xander's happiness because she's an attention mongering whore who hates gay people, I can pretend that she's an OC who just happens to be named Buffy. When a character doesn't appear, or doesn't show up when she should, or got sent on a mysterious mission to Honolulu, or got written out by a line in the author's note, I can say, yay! AU! What I can't do, is pretend that a character who walks like Buffy, talks like Buffy, acts like Buffy, feels like Buffy, isn't Buffy. But there were those little things, those few little tweaks to things she might really say, or things she might really do, that make me suspect you secretly hate her, make me suspect you're only writing her to be good and fair, make me suspect that what you'd really like to say is, "S/X forevah die Buffy die," or, what's somehow even worse, "S/X forevah. Buffy who?"--it's those little bits, and my big suspicions, those're what I really hate.

Okay, okay, I get that you the writer want Angel to get together with Spike, and you as an intelligent and good writer have realized that Buffy might have a thought or two about this, and you want to do justice to her, and to canon. But sometimes, instead of saying, "hey, nice try with that!" I sometimes just want to say: "BACK OFF MY BUFFY. Kill her off, make her into a raging evil screaming bitch, I don't care, but don't write her voice so well, don't make her seem like Buffy, if you're not going to portray her in exactly the light I feel like she should be portrayed."

Which is obviously, soulless and bitchy of me. After all, I'm not necessarily talking about bad writing. I'm not necessarily talking about bad characterization--not quite. (Though, okay, let's, just for a minute. In the same vein of this whole rant, what about when Angel doesn't get bashed, even though he's in the way of your Buffy/Spike, but instead he turns...matchmaker. Starts saying stuff like, "Buffy is so in love with Spike. They deserve to be happy together." Bad writing, but it's "politer" than bashing--but it makes me sicker than bashing. This is the sick that doesn't give you the little shivers like when Spike is confused about his actual paternity in the middle of sex, no siree. This is sick with a capital S which rhymes with mess which is VOMIT.)

Anyway, but really, I'm not talking about lazy writers who didn't make the effort. I'm talking about writers whose views of a character don't line up with mine. A difference of opinion, that's all. And, you know, this difference of opinion does happen just as much with people who love the characters I love, and the 'ships I love: I love B/A, but I don't like how lots of B/Aers like B/A. I love Wesley, but I haven't liked how some Wesley fans write Wesley.

But somehow, that's not the same. When a B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, there are probably two factors at work. 1) The writing is centered on B/A. The writing is, imo, sub-par. Thus, I can choose to to ignore the writing (the fic) completely. and 2) I don't get the feeling in reading this B/A, sub-par writing, that the author dislikes B/A. I get the feeling that the author doesn't view the 'ship the way I do, and can't write it the way I would want it to be written, but at least they respect what I like.

When a non-B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, but is trying to portray them in a good way rather than ignoring them or bashing them, two different things are usually at work. 1) The writing is usually not B/A centric--it's B/S or S/A or A/C or whatever. The writing can be great, especially since this is obviously a writer who tries, who takes the time, who understands a good fic is about characters we know from the show--that's why this writer, even though she hates B/A, is trying to respect B/A. Thus, if I want to read good B/S, or A/S, or A/C, or what have you...well, I could still ignore this fic because of the botched B/A, but I would be missing out. and 2. I get the feeling in reading this attempt at B/A, this attempt to write B/A well, that the author secretly hates B/A, or doesn't respect B/A, or is dismissive/apathetic/disinterested in B/A, and is just writing the B/A so their B/S, S/A, or C/A will make sense--like it's a chore. In the kind of fic I'm talking about, the kind where the author is trying but it's not working for me, I can smell it. I can smell the author saying, "Ugh, I have to do the B/A part now" and it makes me sick. Way sicker than if the author had just left B/A out of it, or if the author had bashed one or the other into an unrecognizable, rapist, crying, screaming banshee.

The point is, if you don't like Faith (whom I also love), but are trying to do justice to Faith in your Angel/Wesley, because this is good writing and you are a good writer . . . and if you fail in that, I will resent you more than I do bad writing and a bad writer who bashed Faith or left her out, just because the writer didn't like Faith. I will resent you more because I feel like you're a good writer and should've done justice to my woobie. The thing that feels the worst, in the pit of my stomach, is the idea that you are a good writer, and a good thinker, and took what you really saw in canon--and this is what you came up with. This isn't some evil bitch you made up and gave the name Faith--you thought about it and you tried and you see the other characters so well and so insightfully, and this is what you saw when you looked at my Faith. In short, I hate on you because you because I feel you're good, but you didn't do what I wanted. I won't hate on the bad ones who didn't do what I wanted. Them I ignore and go on about happily. No. I shall hate you because you are good, and because we disagree, and because I am small, and weak. You are good and you make me puke.

As you can see, I'm not exactly comfortable in this feeling (though I totally am, because look, see, I can be honest about it, and it's not really killing me to make this post). I think it is perverse of me. And yet, that's the way I feel. Show me really really hot A/S smut in which Buffy is ignored or bashed, and I will show you someone who doesn't really give a shit. Someone who can, in fact, still enjoy the smut. But show me a fantastic, kickass, really awesome A/S fic, trying to do justice to Buffy when the writer hates Buffy, show the Buffy bit in that fic not meeting my standards for Buffy--though the writing is decent and there's true effort involved--and I will show you my vomit.

Why is this?

I'm not saying writers shouldn't try to be fair to the characters they don't like, or shouldn't try to understand the characters they don't understand. I try. And I've seen others try and succeed so beautifully it makes my heart hurt--never would've guessed they were uncomfortable writing that character, or that that character isn't their favorite, or that they didn't really want to write that character but did because it was necessary to make the piece work. Never smelled that smell and never got sick at all. But when you try and fail, I feel like throwing tomatoes at you. Maybe it's just in the end, that people who don't try, those who bash, write out, and ignore, don't deserve the fruit. I don't know, but they just don't smell so bad to me. Their writing is worse, their approach, I feel, is worse--but they don't make my eye start twitching.

Thoughts? Opinions? Tomatoes?

ETA: And because I was too ranty to express myself well: [livejournal.com profile] redbrickrose states my thoughts exactly here.

[identity profile] julia-here.livejournal.com 2006-09-26 08:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm a bad person to ask about this: I have no OTP, and I pretty much like all major canon characters, although I have no patience with some aspects of their personalities. And I spent a year writing a long plotty fic based on what are arguably my least favorite characters in the Buffyverse (Angelus and Drusilla) and apparently succeeded on some level.

But I get the feeling you're not entirely clear in your own mind as to what the problem is, right? And that some people can sell you a Buffy you don't quite agree with, while others, presenting a Buffy who is objectively the same character, with the same qualities, not only fail to convince you but irritate you no end while they do it? That I understand; sometimes it's a writer who is well-respected within the fandon, if not a BNF, sometimes it's even someone who has written stuff I like a whole lot, using the same characterizations, and then I read a new piece and go "bleaurgh".

And then it's annoying because I feel obligated to comment and, perhaps, recommend (because that's what I do, you know: I usually function as a fic rec writer) and I'm wondering if I'd just a bad day for me, or I'm losing interest in the fandom, or I'm becoming stupid and picky in my old age. I just went through a long period of being on strike, gave up on commenting and almost gave up on recommending. And then some very good stories started showing up, and I went back and read the ones that bugged me, and they still felt off.

So, yeah: you win some, you lose some. There's a difference in performance quality from writer to writer, and with individual writers, from story to story. For every The Way We Live Now there's a Eustace Diamonds, for every rose its thorn.

Or something.

Julia, probably stupendously unhelpful again

ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-09-27 03:35 am (UTC)(link)
long plotty fic based on what are arguably my least favorite characters in the Buffyverse (Angelus and Drusilla)

Always meant to read that. And good on you! I totally laud the effort.

But I get the feeling you're not entirely clear in your own mind as to what the problem is, right?

Perhaps. Part if it is, I'm conflicted on the issue. Also, usually I'm much more careful when I post about something, to make sure my meaning is clear.

And that some people can sell you a Buffy you don't quite agree with, while others, presenting a Buffy who is objectively the same character, ...irritate you no end

That's definitely a way of putting it, but rather generalized in relation to the point I'm aiming at. Often, in the latter case you state, what irritates me is what I read between the lines: that this writer hates Buffy. That this writer does not respect Buffy, that writing Buffy for this author is a chore. Other interpretations of Buffy I may not agree with, but if with those Buffys I *don't* recieve the impression that the writer doesn't like Buffy, and is only attempting to respect her for the purposes of good writing and faithfulness to canon--then it doesn't bother me at all.

Of course, that's completely subject to how I'm reading it. It's concievable that I could read a Buffy by a Buffy-lover, and still come away with the impression that the author secretly hated Buffy and was only trying to write Buffy as she did for the purposes of loyalty to canon. It's also concievable, as I mentioned in the post, that I could read a Buffy by a Buffy-hater, and come away with the impression that the author loves Buffy and portrayed her this way out of love. But I have rarely found those instances to be the case. It's more often that when I recieve the impression from a piece that the writer secretly hates Buffy but is trying to do justice by her for the sake of canon and craft, that the writer does, actually, hate Buffy, or at least professes to do so.

it's a writer who is well-respected within the fandon, if not a BNF, sometimes it's even someone who has written stuff I like a whole lot, using the same characterizations, and then I read a new piece and go "bleaurgh".

Yeah, that's happened to me before, too. But it's not quite what I'm talking about here. A better example would be an author who I personally like and respect (what fandom thinks of her is beside the point) for writing B/S so well, for writing fabulous Buffy and Spike and having so many insights into them and also so many supporting characters. Then this writer writes Angel now and again, because considering the time and place of the fic, he would logically show up--even though this author doesn't usually give two figs for Angel. And the writing of these Angel-parts is good, as this author always is. The insights are there, the voice is there. But inside it there's something forced, something off, and a line or two that says, without saying, that this writer in actuality doesn't like Angel. It makes me want to stand up and say: WELL THEN GET YOUR GRUBBY MITTS OFF OF HIM!

I'm not talking about a specific instance, but rather a trend I notice when lots of people try writing characters they don't like. Like I said, I shouldn't talk, because *I* write characters I don't like, or more importantly, characters I *love* but feel that I don't understand.

because that's what I do, you know: I usually function as a fic rec writer

No, I didn't know; that's pretty cool. And I can see where certain fics just rubbing you the wrong way, even though they were written by good authors, would put you off it. I feel the same: like I *should* respect such and so author's version of Angel (or whoever) because I do respect everything they've written around him so much. I should, at least, respect the effort, the fact that they are *trying* to be fair to him. Instead I get all ranty.

probably stupendously unhelpful again

I thought your comments were very insightful, thanks.

[identity profile] julia-here.livejournal.com 2006-09-27 04:33 am (UTC)(link)
OK, now it's more clear: your objection is to a lack of emotional commitment, on the author's part, to the characterization? There is a level of heartlessness; the other charactors breathe and move and that one is a cardboard figure, who gets propped up to say a few canon-coherant lines but doesn't quite have the three-dimensional quality of the others?

I hear you on that; I don't know, though, if there's any cure for it minus the writer just leaving the character out entirely, which isn't always possible (which is why there are so many really bad Xanders walking around the fic world, and Wesleys, and Freds, and Cordelias) when writing in canon time. It's irksome even when the charactor is just in a supporting role, in the fic or in canon, but when it's a major actor and he/she is just standing in the corner propped up on a triangular stand and saying lines which are entirely plausible but not very lively, it's damned annoying.

Julia, (and don't feel any pressure to read "Rose"; I've yet to do a final revision for archiving because I got so fatigued with the writing of it)
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-09-27 05:37 am (UTC)(link)
Well. A good writer who cares for Xander might on some occasions write a cardboard Xander, just because oops, they weren't juggling all their fruit as well as they should've been, and they were too focused on the Tara/Willow action. But that cardboardness is often not the same as if they secretly hate Xander. That was careless writing of Xander, not the careful, fair, really serious attempt at writing Xander when the author hates Xander.

I'm talking about the negative vibe I get when I read the latter. [livejournal.com profile] redbrickrose mentioned below about how defensive you can get about a character, how you get to where you don't *want* to hear that other people don't like her. It's not quite the same as hearing the characters' faults, or the 'ships' failings. I feel like I'm pretty aware of the characters' I love flaws, and I often love them because of their flaws. But when someone is portraying a character they don't like, and they are doing it with good writing, and with decent characterization, and a firm foothold and canon and everything else, and yet it's coming through that this person hasn't looked at the character the way I do and seen what I do in both her flaws and assets, that this person actually dislikes my character--that makes my gut twist.

That negative vibe can come through in a variety of ways--just a lacklusterness, or a 2 dimensionalness, which you mention. [livejournal.com profile] kita0610 described it below as the character feeling just a little off center, just not quite right--too something, or too something else. The somethings all being characteristics the character has in canon, but to me it's not who they are, and the author is missing what makes this character special, why this character is so important to me. I find that offness a lot more disconcerting than seeing a character openly bashed. I hoped that makes sense.

Well, I wanted to read Irish Rose long before I friended you; it always sounded interesting to me. So, some day I will--and I'm looking forward to it!
rahirah: (Default)

[personal profile] rahirah 2006-09-28 07:02 pm (UTC)(link)
(carefully not assuming that you're talking about me)

I will just point out that there's a difference between disliking a character and finding them hard to write. I, for example, am a B/S author who occasionally writes Angel. I don't dislike Angel. I won't pretend that I love him as much as I love some other characters, but I don't dislike him. I do find him very difficult to write, and I'm painfully aware that I don't always hit the bullseye when writing him--believe me, people have pointed out various flaws in my depiction of him a number of times, and very often I agree with them.

I find other characters difficult to write, too (Anya eludes me entirely) but they tend to have less impact on the story so people don't notice as much.
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[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-09-29 03:35 am (UTC)(link)
I wasn't talking about anyone in particular. No one comes to mind; I've just noticed it over time. In other fandoms, too.

I will just point out that there's a difference between disliking a character and finding them hard to write.

I think so too. I love Spike; I find him hard to write.

Anyway, obviously, whether a writer likes a character is not always self-evident in the writing. But I've often found it to be the case that a writer trying to do justice by a character they hate is more unpleasant to read than a writer trying to do justice by a character they're in different to, which is more unpleasant than a writer trying to do justice to a character they feel they don't understand, which is more unpleasant than a writer trying to do justice to a character they feel really comfortable with. The "unpleasantness" I'm referring to, of course, is what I *feel* like I'm reading between the lines--that the writer is uncomfortable, that the writer is indifferent, or that the writer is actively disliking. And of course *that* is subject to my own interpretations rather than what the writer is actually feeling, but I've noticed often enough that when I writer confesses to feeling any of these things for a character, it *is* sometimes the feeling I get reading when they write that character.