Rant On Characterization!

[lettered]

When I first started reading fanfic, around 6 years ago, I read a lot of character bashing. It always kind of boggled me. It seemed obvious that the writer couldn't possibly believe that that was how such and so a character really was in canon, but rather that the writer was pushing an agenda: mongering hate for a character they didn't like, or what was more distasteful to me, for a character that was competition for their 'ship of choice. Now, I say it was confusing for me. It was also frustrating for me, because I would prefer to see the characters as they were actually portrayed in canon.

So when, actually about 5 years later, I found lj, where everyone talks about fic and fic writing and is much more intelligent on average, I was really pleased to find that many people actually dislike bashing. Many people not only dislike the negative motivations on the part of the writer, but actually view bashing as bad writing, because it doesn't hold to canon, because it is about the writer's preferences, because it's an easy way out for writing a character you don't like, instead of taking the time to understand them. In fact, around the parts of fandom in which I play, this is pretty much taken for granted. Bashing is in bad taste, a squick, a big no-no. And man, is it nice to be around people who feel that way.

Okay, but most of us still dislike certain characters. Instead of bashing, the number one solution is not to write said characters. But say the character you hate is Spike, and the characters you absolutely love happen to be Buffy and Angel, and you want to do a fic in which Buffy comes to LA mid-AtS S5 and gradually picks up a relationship again with Angel. If you want to write that scenario, pretty much, imo, you're going to be writing some Spike, or at least writing characters talking about Spike. Saying, "pretend Spike didn't come back to life" is, in some ways, just plain lazy (bad) writing. Having Spike just not appear or not come up at all is bad writing, because it doesn't take in to consideration what's going on in canon (unless there is a good excuse, in which case describing the excuse will involve writing about Spike). Mentioning Spike, or having him appear briefly, without him being a significant factor in Buffy's life, Buffy's feeling, Buffy's relationship with Angel, Angel's life, Angel's feelings, and Angel's feelings for Buffy, is, imo, a form of bashing. Buffy comes to L.A. and sees him alive for the first time since Sunnydale, and the only thing important going on is whatever's up with her and Angel? That diminishes what Spike and Buffy had, that diminishes Spike, and that diminishes everything Buffy's been through in the last few years.

Okay, so, if you're set on doing your B/A fic during these times and these particular circumstances, if you're going to write a good fanfic, a well-written fic without bashing, what a writer should do is make the attempt. Make the attempt to write Spike, even though you don't like him. Make the attempt to be fair to him. Make the attempt to understand him. Make the attempt to respect B/S. Make the attempt to sympahtize with B/S. Try to write these characters in a way that's true to who they really are, in a way that takes into considerations the feeling they have for each other, and show how they're moving on from each other, and why--or how they're not moving on, how they will always have a something, but why Buffy's decided to be with Angel now, or whatever. Make the attempt.

Except, sometimes, I just hate that.

Bit of a hypocrite. I've written characters I don't like, characters with whom I don't sympathize, and/or characters whom I don't feel I understand as well as I ought. When I write those characters, I try to like them, or try to sympathize, or try to understand. I've had mixed success--sometimes I feel like I really did a character justice, sometimes not.

It's hit and miss all over. I've read Angel in fics by people who claim Angel is a character they tend to feel apathy towards, and I've liked their portrayal of Angel. But what's really bad, what really makes me feel pukey, is when a writer tries, and doesn't quite make it. A writer who feels apathetic toward Xander, or doesn't understand Xander, or hates Xander, but tries to be fair to him. A writer who think B/A is lame, but understands it's very much a part of both Buffy and Angel, so tries to take that into account in their B/S fic. Tries, and doesn't quite come up to snuff. It's more unpleasant to me than having a character just written out, or having the writer pretend that the character doesn't exist at all. To me, it's even more unpleasant than bashing.

When a character gets bashed, it's like I can tune it out. If Buffy is a bitch who's breaking up Spike and Xander's happiness because she's an attention mongering whore who hates gay people, I can pretend that she's an OC who just happens to be named Buffy. When a character doesn't appear, or doesn't show up when she should, or got sent on a mysterious mission to Honolulu, or got written out by a line in the author's note, I can say, yay! AU! What I can't do, is pretend that a character who walks like Buffy, talks like Buffy, acts like Buffy, feels like Buffy, isn't Buffy. But there were those little things, those few little tweaks to things she might really say, or things she might really do, that make me suspect you secretly hate her, make me suspect you're only writing her to be good and fair, make me suspect that what you'd really like to say is, "S/X forevah die Buffy die," or, what's somehow even worse, "S/X forevah. Buffy who?"--it's those little bits, and my big suspicions, those're what I really hate.

Okay, okay, I get that you the writer want Angel to get together with Spike, and you as an intelligent and good writer have realized that Buffy might have a thought or two about this, and you want to do justice to her, and to canon. But sometimes, instead of saying, "hey, nice try with that!" I sometimes just want to say: "BACK OFF MY BUFFY. Kill her off, make her into a raging evil screaming bitch, I don't care, but don't write her voice so well, don't make her seem like Buffy, if you're not going to portray her in exactly the light I feel like she should be portrayed."

Which is obviously, soulless and bitchy of me. After all, I'm not necessarily talking about bad writing. I'm not necessarily talking about bad characterization--not quite. (Though, okay, let's, just for a minute. In the same vein of this whole rant, what about when Angel doesn't get bashed, even though he's in the way of your Buffy/Spike, but instead he turns...matchmaker. Starts saying stuff like, "Buffy is so in love with Spike. They deserve to be happy together." Bad writing, but it's "politer" than bashing--but it makes me sicker than bashing. This is the sick that doesn't give you the little shivers like when Spike is confused about his actual paternity in the middle of sex, no siree. This is sick with a capital S which rhymes with mess which is VOMIT.)

Anyway, but really, I'm not talking about lazy writers who didn't make the effort. I'm talking about writers whose views of a character don't line up with mine. A difference of opinion, that's all. And, you know, this difference of opinion does happen just as much with people who love the characters I love, and the 'ships I love: I love B/A, but I don't like how lots of B/Aers like B/A. I love Wesley, but I haven't liked how some Wesley fans write Wesley.

But somehow, that's not the same. When a B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, there are probably two factors at work. 1) The writing is centered on B/A. The writing is, imo, sub-par. Thus, I can choose to to ignore the writing (the fic) completely. and 2) I don't get the feeling in reading this B/A, sub-par writing, that the author dislikes B/A. I get the feeling that the author doesn't view the 'ship the way I do, and can't write it the way I would want it to be written, but at least they respect what I like.

When a non-B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, but is trying to portray them in a good way rather than ignoring them or bashing them, two different things are usually at work. 1) The writing is usually not B/A centric--it's B/S or S/A or A/C or whatever. The writing can be great, especially since this is obviously a writer who tries, who takes the time, who understands a good fic is about characters we know from the show--that's why this writer, even though she hates B/A, is trying to respect B/A. Thus, if I want to read good B/S, or A/S, or A/C, or what have you...well, I could still ignore this fic because of the botched B/A, but I would be missing out. and 2. I get the feeling in reading this attempt at B/A, this attempt to write B/A well, that the author secretly hates B/A, or doesn't respect B/A, or is dismissive/apathetic/disinterested in B/A, and is just writing the B/A so their B/S, S/A, or C/A will make sense--like it's a chore. In the kind of fic I'm talking about, the kind where the author is trying but it's not working for me, I can smell it. I can smell the author saying, "Ugh, I have to do the B/A part now" and it makes me sick. Way sicker than if the author had just left B/A out of it, or if the author had bashed one or the other into an unrecognizable, rapist, crying, screaming banshee.

The point is, if you don't like Faith (whom I also love), but are trying to do justice to Faith in your Angel/Wesley, because this is good writing and you are a good writer . . . and if you fail in that, I will resent you more than I do bad writing and a bad writer who bashed Faith or left her out, just because the writer didn't like Faith. I will resent you more because I feel like you're a good writer and should've done justice to my woobie. The thing that feels the worst, in the pit of my stomach, is the idea that you are a good writer, and a good thinker, and took what you really saw in canon--and this is what you came up with. This isn't some evil bitch you made up and gave the name Faith--you thought about it and you tried and you see the other characters so well and so insightfully, and this is what you saw when you looked at my Faith. In short, I hate on you because you because I feel you're good, but you didn't do what I wanted. I won't hate on the bad ones who didn't do what I wanted. Them I ignore and go on about happily. No. I shall hate you because you are good, and because we disagree, and because I am small, and weak. You are good and you make me puke.

As you can see, I'm not exactly comfortable in this feeling (though I totally am, because look, see, I can be honest about it, and it's not really killing me to make this post). I think it is perverse of me. And yet, that's the way I feel. Show me really really hot A/S smut in which Buffy is ignored or bashed, and I will show you someone who doesn't really give a shit. Someone who can, in fact, still enjoy the smut. But show me a fantastic, kickass, really awesome A/S fic, trying to do justice to Buffy when the writer hates Buffy, show the Buffy bit in that fic not meeting my standards for Buffy--though the writing is decent and there's true effort involved--and I will show you my vomit.

Why is this?

I'm not saying writers shouldn't try to be fair to the characters they don't like, or shouldn't try to understand the characters they don't understand. I try. And I've seen others try and succeed so beautifully it makes my heart hurt--never would've guessed they were uncomfortable writing that character, or that that character isn't their favorite, or that they didn't really want to write that character but did because it was necessary to make the piece work. Never smelled that smell and never got sick at all. But when you try and fail, I feel like throwing tomatoes at you. Maybe it's just in the end, that people who don't try, those who bash, write out, and ignore, don't deserve the fruit. I don't know, but they just don't smell so bad to me. Their writing is worse, their approach, I feel, is worse--but they don't make my eye start twitching.

Thoughts? Opinions? Tomatoes?

ETA: And because I was too ranty to express myself well: redbrickrose states my thoughts exactly here.

Comments

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

I'm just the opposite. If an author writes B/A in a story, is clearly *not* a fan of B/A but is attempting to write B/A as honestly and realistically as possible, biases aside, I can forgive them for a lot more because at least he or she is trying. Not everyone writes B/A the way I do (and thank god because then there would be even more crappy fluff out there than there already is), not everyone views B/A the same. My 'looking glass' isn't the same as yours or any other fan. And that's fine with me. So, while I may not agree with an author's depiction of B/A, I may think, well, that's not really how I see B/A or how I want them to be, I respect and admire the effort the author made to write B/A in a way that does justice to the characters and the pairing, even if he or she is a rabid A/S fan. The final product says a lot, to be sure, but for me, the attempt--as long as it is a fair, reasoned attempt--means more.

The straight bashing/ignoring of a character and/or pairing drives me up the wall. Now, in my own work, since I tend to write the silly, fluffy drivel, I *don't* always include Spike, or Cordelia, or Character X. Mostly what I write are one-shots to make me happy and I'm not looking to break new ground or explore new dimensions. I want happy B/A, possibly with sex. So yeah, I tend to ignore every character who isn't Buffy or Angel in those silly one-shots. Which is another reason my writing isn't good but it does make me happy.

However, the few serious fics I have written/am currently writing, I make the sincere effort to respect all characters and pairings, even ones I don't care for at all. Recent example is my Angel/Cordelia 'five times' fic. I don't like canon Angel/Cordelia and can really only read one or two author's A/C fic. I have an extremely difficult time accepting the romantic pairing of the two. Writing that piece--and it was only a simple meme request, nothing in depth--was hard for me, and I tried to do A/C justice, despite my personal feelings for the pairing. Did I succeed? I don't know. But I tried my damnedest to be fair to A/C and I hope that was reflected in the writing. So, even if it's not A/C as to a shipper's preference, I would hope that the effort to portray them fairly and in a respectful manner to shippers would count for something. But I'm vain like that. :P

Uhm, I think I have gotten so far off track. I don't even remember what I originally started talking about. Oh yeah. Bashing.

The bashing I can't respect at all. I can't ignore much, either. I wish I could because it'd be so much easier, but when I see Buffy or Angel or Wes or so on and so forth bashed, it's hard for me to say, That's just sloppy/lazy writing. Pfft. I can much more easily forgive writers who attempt B/A respectfully and may utterly fail at it than I can writers who ignore/bash B/A in order to make their pairing work. Which, considering what I mostly write, does sound hypocritical, but for me, one-shot fics that are basically masturbatory fics for the author (example: my HGTV fics. They make *me* happy and for that series, that's really all that matters to me. I'm not trying to do anything serious or blow people's minds. I'm writing fluffy B/A with decorating because it's what I want) are seen differently than serious fics, particularly multi-chaptered fics. The one-shots that may bash/ignore a character/pairing don't get my hackles up as much because I figure, the author maybe just wants a simple A/S or C/A or B/S or Character X/Character Y happy fic. But for fics that attempt to realistically/heartfully/truthfully/what have you portray the author's pairing of choice while bashing another pairing(s) raise my ire completely.

Um, okay. Extremely long-winded ramble short: honest attempt, even if it doesn't fit my view of character/pairing = good for me; bashing/ignoring in a "serious" fic = want to claw someone's eyes out.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

If an author writes B/A in a story, is clearly *not* a fan of B/A but is attempting to write B/A as honestly and realistically as possible, biases aside, I can forgive them for a lot more because at least he or she is trying.

See, I *should* feel this way. In fact, I should clarify, I *do* feel this way in my head. I feel like it's better writing, it makes you a better writer, and I really respect the effort. But in my gut, when I'm reading it? Yeah. I think that's why I kept using the word "sick", and why I feel so ashamed of myself.

However, the few serious fics I have written/am currently writing, I make the sincere effort to respect all characters and pairings, even ones I don't care for at all.

This is the part where I'm a hypocrite--because I totally do, too. I wouldn't respect myself if I decided to bash a character, or write them out, or just not even try. For instance, Spike. I do love Spike, but I don't feel like I understand him as I should. But I *want* to write him so I try really hard to understand him. You would hope that this is what everyone does. And yet when people do it and they don't succeed, I like reading it *less* than if they hadn't tried at all. I'm a bad person.

I can much more easily forgive writers who attempt B/A respectfully and may utterly fail at it than I can writers who ignore/bash B/A in order to make their pairing work.

Well, for me, it's not so much a question of forgiveness. I feel more *understanding* towards someone who is really trying. But if they're failing, I like their fics *less* than someone who isn't trying at all. It goes against my own sense of justice.

Now, in my own work, since I tend to write the silly, fluffy drivel, I *don't* always include Spike, or Cordelia, or Character X.

I feel the need to point out that it's not as if every fic *should* have Spike, if it's going to be B/A. Some fics are set in some mystical time that's not a concrete time in canon, and those fics work for me. And one shots can't take everything to account, and shouldn't. I think the short, happy fics you do can be and often are of a good quality, without including everyone and their mama.

[seraphcelene]

WOW!

1. Admittedly, I didn't read this as carefully as I could have and later will. I'm at work and due to technical difficulties I'm behind. So I'm not quite sure that I totally understand the logistics of your argument.

2. From what I assume that I do understand, I am concerned because I know that my versions of canonical characters are not the same as what I perceive to be the most popular versions of canonical characters (and that probably explains my readership).

But I do make the attempt to align my fic with canon and if it doesn't hold up my hope is that it's because my interpretation of canon is just in tension with yours because we don't think alike. But I don't get that as a reason for serious disappointment or dislike or, maybe, such a severe reaction. Are varying interpreations of canon even close to being acceptable or can it be justified to you or is it a deal or no deal kind of thing? In retrospect, I may have pissed alot of people off.

I also think that I'm thinking too simplistically.

3. What set you off and will you ever be able to forgive ...

[tkp.livejournal.com]

This is slightly different than what I'm talking about. Different interpretation are great, imo. More than great. If I only ever wanted to see what I personally felt about Buffy, or Spike, or Angel, or whoever, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't read fic. I wouldn't talk about the shows. I'd lock myself in a room with a tv and no internet and masturbate a lot, probably.

It's when the view differs from mine, and as I'm reading that view, I suspect that the view is so different because the writer secretly doesn't like the character. It's not the different view point so much as the *reason* for the different view point, and the feeling I get from reading that.

If you love Faith, but feel differently about Faith than I do, but are a great writer, I will love on your thinky brain (and you, I do love on your thinky brain) for giving me new thoughts to think about Faith. And I guess the point there is that I can't imagine that the thoughts a Faith-lover would give me about Faith could in any way be diminishing towards Faith as a character (not as a person, mind you, but as a character). But when a non-Faith-lover tries, but doesn't succeed, instead I finally see what intelligent, cool, insightful people see when they see Faith, and I don't like it.

One of my problems is that I have trouble understanding and accepting the fact that intelligent people don't always like the things I like. I understand they see things differenty. I love that they see things differently. But the fact that some of the same can look at a character like Angel and say, "meh, I find him uninteresting", that always boggles me.

Um, I'm still in ranty mode. Possibly because none of this is sounding right. I feel pretty much like a bad person, because in my head I love it when people make the effort to be fair to the characters I love. When I'm reading, though, I don't enjoy it so much.

3. It wasn't one specific fic or incident. I try not to rant on like that, because that's just me mad at one thing, instead of making a general point. But as I pointed out to Lee, above, I think the vehemence is a result of the fact that I *don't* think this way, I just *feel* this way. I think it's better for writers to make the effort than not try at all. But in reading the results? If the writer failed in the effort, I sometimes wish they hadn't tried at all. That does make me pretty much a bitch, I think.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Dude, you're always thinking thinky thoughts, and it hurts, yo! :)

IMO, it's easy because haters and bashers aren't well thought out, reasonable people (or aren't perceived as being such, same thing). They're easy to dismiss. They hate the character, well, just because. But a reasonable, intelligent, competent human being?

Gosh, if someone who's intelligent and reasonable dislikes my favorite characters then maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe they're right! OMG!

If someone you don't really respect comes out with "Buffy's such a bitch, I hope she dies! Again. Forever this time!" it's easy to ignore. The same opinion from that feminist, highly respected, "Your brain is a scary thing", "We're not worthy", writer / person, well, far less easy to dismiss. Because it means that maybe the way you see the character is wrong. Maybe B/A is boring and B/S is the ship to end all ships. Maybe Spike isn't the most special vampire that ever vampired. Maybe Xander is an asshole that tried to keep all the women down.

And having your opinions challenged by people you respect hurts more than by people you don't.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Yes, right on, except for the part about maybe I'm wrong. Hahaha. I'm such a bitch.

When someone I respect and admire has a different view point, I do really respect that view point, and they do make me think and wonder things I hadn't before. But does that mean I'm wrong? No. Just that we're different.

But yeah, I guess it does boil down to the fact that I have trouble accepting that other people--other really intelligent insightful people I admire--don't like the things I like. And when they write a character I like, but they don't like, sometimes I can just *tell* they don't like said character, and for some reasons their attempt at a fair portrayal of said character strikes a deeper, and much more annoyed, chord inside me than if some random Joe on the street tried to convince me Buffy was a total h0r.

[julia-here.livejournal.com]

I'm a bad person to ask about this: I have no OTP, and I pretty much like all major canon characters, although I have no patience with some aspects of their personalities. And I spent a year writing a long plotty fic based on what are arguably my least favorite characters in the Buffyverse (Angelus and Drusilla) and apparently succeeded on some level.

But I get the feeling you're not entirely clear in your own mind as to what the problem is, right? And that some people can sell you a Buffy you don't quite agree with, while others, presenting a Buffy who is objectively the same character, with the same qualities, not only fail to convince you but irritate you no end while they do it? That I understand; sometimes it's a writer who is well-respected within the fandon, if not a BNF, sometimes it's even someone who has written stuff I like a whole lot, using the same characterizations, and then I read a new piece and go "bleaurgh".

And then it's annoying because I feel obligated to comment and, perhaps, recommend (because that's what I do, you know: I usually function as a fic rec writer) and I'm wondering if I'd just a bad day for me, or I'm losing interest in the fandom, or I'm becoming stupid and picky in my old age. I just went through a long period of being on strike, gave up on commenting and almost gave up on recommending. And then some very good stories started showing up, and I went back and read the ones that bugged me, and they still felt off.

So, yeah: you win some, you lose some. There's a difference in performance quality from writer to writer, and with individual writers, from story to story. For every The Way We Live Now there's a Eustace Diamonds, for every rose its thorn.

Or something.

Julia, probably stupendously unhelpful again

[tkp.livejournal.com]

long plotty fic based on what are arguably my least favorite characters in the Buffyverse (Angelus and Drusilla)

Always meant to read that. And good on you! I totally laud the effort.

But I get the feeling you're not entirely clear in your own mind as to what the problem is, right?

Perhaps. Part if it is, I'm conflicted on the issue. Also, usually I'm much more careful when I post about something, to make sure my meaning is clear.

And that some people can sell you a Buffy you don't quite agree with, while others, presenting a Buffy who is objectively the same character, ...irritate you no end

That's definitely a way of putting it, but rather generalized in relation to the point I'm aiming at. Often, in the latter case you state, what irritates me is what I read between the lines: that this writer hates Buffy. That this writer does not respect Buffy, that writing Buffy for this author is a chore. Other interpretations of Buffy I may not agree with, but if with those Buffys I *don't* recieve the impression that the writer doesn't like Buffy, and is only attempting to respect her for the purposes of good writing and faithfulness to canon--then it doesn't bother me at all.

Of course, that's completely subject to how I'm reading it. It's concievable that I could read a Buffy by a Buffy-lover, and still come away with the impression that the author secretly hated Buffy and was only trying to write Buffy as she did for the purposes of loyalty to canon. It's also concievable, as I mentioned in the post, that I could read a Buffy by a Buffy-hater, and come away with the impression that the author loves Buffy and portrayed her this way out of love. But I have rarely found those instances to be the case. It's more often that when I recieve the impression from a piece that the writer secretly hates Buffy but is trying to do justice by her for the sake of canon and craft, that the writer does, actually, hate Buffy, or at least professes to do so.

it's a writer who is well-respected within the fandon, if not a BNF, sometimes it's even someone who has written stuff I like a whole lot, using the same characterizations, and then I read a new piece and go "bleaurgh".

Yeah, that's happened to me before, too. But it's not quite what I'm talking about here. A better example would be an author who I personally like and respect (what fandom thinks of her is beside the point) for writing B/S so well, for writing fabulous Buffy and Spike and having so many insights into them and also so many supporting characters. Then this writer writes Angel now and again, because considering the time and place of the fic, he would logically show up--even though this author doesn't usually give two figs for Angel. And the writing of these Angel-parts is good, as this author always is. The insights are there, the voice is there. But inside it there's something forced, something off, and a line or two that says, without saying, that this writer in actuality doesn't like Angel. It makes me want to stand up and say: WELL THEN GET YOUR GRUBBY MITTS OFF OF HIM!

I'm not talking about a specific instance, but rather a trend I notice when lots of people try writing characters they don't like. Like I said, I shouldn't talk, because *I* write characters I don't like, or more importantly, characters I *love* but feel that I don't understand.

because that's what I do, you know: I usually function as a fic rec writer

No, I didn't know; that's pretty cool. And I can see where certain fics just rubbing you the wrong way, even though they were written by good authors, would put you off it. I feel the same: like I *should* respect such and so author's version of Angel (or whoever) because I do respect everything they've written around him so much. I should, at least, respect the effort, the fact that they are *trying* to be fair to him. Instead I get all ranty.

probably stupendously unhelpful again

I thought your comments were very insightful, thanks.

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

Huh.

Not quite sure what you are saying here. I read your work because it is excellent, even though I don't get your OTP most of the time. But your vision is believable, and for the length of your stories I am able to suspend my disbelief. That is a compliment to your writing, I believe. I think maybe if your eye is twitching, the writing you are twitching over really isn't that great. Could that be?

[tkp.livejournal.com]

First, thanks. It's always flattering when someone reads something that's not necessarily their thing.

I think maybe if your eye is twitching, the writing you are twitching over really isn't that great. Could that be?

I'm not sure. I'm reluctant to dismiss a good writer--who not only words things beautifully, but thinks with wonderful insight and care about who the characters are and what they would do--who doesn't like B/A, but took serious time and effort to write it and to write it well--as having written the pairing sub-par merely because it didn't sell me on B/A.

I'm not the authority on the characters and pairings I love. That's, of course, one of the cool things about it: my B/A is not your B/A is not Whedon's B/A. But when I see B/A (or any pairing or character I really care about) that is a serious attempt at acknowledging, respecting, and honoring B/A, and yet at the same time gives me the impression that this author really doesn't understand what people who love B/A love about it, or what *I* think it's really about--it makes my stomach lurch. Is it bad writing because I recieved that impression from it? Possibly, but I'm more inclined to credit that to a difference in view point between me and the author.

And yet, that simple difference in view point, while in my head I'm *glad* to have it, in my stomach, when I'm reading it, it's hard to take. It makes me want to say, "This IS bad writing! This author just doesn't UNDERSTAND!" When really, it is myself who is being small minded. Or, you know, small stomached.

[43100.livejournal.com]

Hee, I'd give my opinions but I'm not much of a fanfic writer these days. (I haven't even read ;.; ;.;) BUT -- I kind of hate both things. I kind of go insane if it's not a Faith(Or Buffy)-centric fic. Or when the Buffy-centric writer bashes Faith. Please. Give me a post-s7 Buffy that understands Faith instead of hates her and I'll be your bitch forever.

But I'm a very bias person. ;p

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't like either either. And that makes me a very biased person too!

[redbrickrose.livejournal.com]

Really interesting thoughts. When I first started reading, I was thinking "no, I hate bashing way more." But then I can just not read fics that character bash. Or I can make fun of them behind their back. You know, whatever, and it's all good. I don't have to take it seriously. That's really the point, because then you said this:

The thing that feels the worst, in the pit of my stomach, is the idea that you are a good writer, and a good thinker, and took what you really saw in canon--and this is what you came up with. This isn't some evil bitch you made up and gave the name Faith--you thought about it and you tried and you see the other characters so well and so insightfully, and this is what you saw when you looked at my Faith.

I can get really defensive about my favorite characters, and there's a way in which I don't want to acknowledge that negative opinions about them are valid, and when confronted with the fact that they might be, I well . . . usually I run away in the other direction as fast as I can for fear of fanwank, but that doesn't mean the feeling isn't there. If someone doesn't like the characters I like, I don't really want to know, and I really don't want to know through fic, especially if it's good writing that I have to respect and take seriously.

From a technical perspective or course bashing and bad writing bother me more, but they don't (and can't, really) bother me on an emotional level. They can;t unsettle me. The other can. I've never really thought about that before. Wow.

I don't post fic often but I do try and do all of the characters justice in my fic and I live in constant fear of writing someone OOC. However, I also tend to stay in my comfort zones with characters I love, or at least like. There aren't actually any I hate in the Buffyverse, but there are a few I am ambivalent about or indifferent to and I'm not sure I would feel comfortable writing them. I'm not sure I'd do them justice if I tried to write them. Hmmmmm. I think I see what you're saying.

Interesting post. Definitely worth thinking about.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

The thing that feels the worst, in the pit of my stomach, is the idea that you are a good writer, and a good thinker, and took what you really saw in canon--and this is what you came up with. This isn't some evil bitch you made up and gave the name Faith--you thought about it and you tried and you see the other characters so well and so insightfully, and this is what you saw when you looked at my Faith.

Yes yes yes, that got me too! Because I feel that way about good writers who just don't get Angel. Even if they admit they don't get him. I just want to say "ok then leave him the fuck alone, will you because if I have to read your version of him one more time I may have to spork my own eyes out!"

But, you say, just don't read their stuff! But this is the issue! They are good writers! I *want* to read their stuff! But then they write Some Version of Angel that is off center somehow, just a litle too mopey or not arrogant enough or doesn't have Connor front and center in his big forehead, and I cry real tears.

Oh, TKP. Why you gotta be so RIGHT?

[semby.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot of this, and I thank you for saying it.

Bashing = bad, and that's all I have to say about that, because you said it very well.

I do get uncomfortable when someone writes B/A doesn't really feel B/A, because often I feel like if they don't get what's so special about them really, that specialness won't come out in their writing. Even if they're trying really hard and saying all the things a B/Aer would say, I feel like their hearts not in it, and it doesn't work for me. Same with good writers write a character or pairing in a different way than I see them. But... I don't hate on them. And I don't want to puke. I get uncomfortable, and feel like things aren't quite right, but I do appreciate the effort, and usually can see it for the quality in writing, even if it doesn't match my point of view. I'm not even sure if I agreed or disagreed with you there. My head's all spacey.

My head, being spacey, also first read this line: "I feel like you're a good writer and should've done justice to my woobie" as "I feel like you're a good writer and should be a part of my wardrobe". I need sleep.

Also, a bit OT, I've been in kind of a head-spacey and distracted way on and off for days now, and you have new fic, and I haven't been able to read it, but I've had them open on my computer for DAYS in my "to read" pile, and I can't wait till my head is in a place where I can focus on them. Which will hopefully be very soon. Just so you know.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Okay. I was so worried after I made this post, because the first few comments it seemed like people didn't get what I was trying to say, and I know I didn't articulate myself because I was REALLY getting my rant on. Then I got farther down the thread, and now I feel so much better.

I do get uncomfortable when someone writes B/A doesn't really feel B/A, because often I feel like if they don't get what's so special about them really, that specialness won't come out in their writing. Even if they're trying really hard and saying all the things a B/Aer would say, I feel like their hearts not in it, and it doesn't work for me.

This is exactly what I mean. You hit the nail on the head. It's...hard to describe, that lack of specialness. Because the writing isn't bad. The characterizations are good. But that's why I used the word "smell"--I can *feel* it, the difference between someone who loves it and someone who's just "meh". And it makes a big difference in the writing.

But... I don't hate on them. And I don't want to puke. I get uncomfortable, and feel like things aren't quite right, but I do appreciate the effort, and usually can see it for the quality in writing, even if it doesn't match my point of view.

The whole puke feeling was very vehement, wasn't it. I wished I'd used a different word now. But I think I said it that way because in my head, I totally *do* appreciate the effort. Someone said above, from a technical standpoint, making the effort is *so* much better than bashing. But from the standpoint of my gut, it hurts me more to read it done badly than to read bashing. redbrickrose said it above: it's unsettling to read a character the way someone else sees them, when the vibe you get from it is negative, but the presentation is well-written, well characterized, everything. And that's the word I want to use, unsettling. 'Cause it does wrench my gut in weird ways.

But I don't really hate it :o) I don't really hate all that much!

And dude, don't feel obligated to read my fic. You sound like you need sleep! And maybe a foot massage. Anyway, I think one of the reasons I actually made this post is I'm writing Spike in those stories, and that makes my *highly* uncomfortable. I love Spike, but I feel like I don't understand him. And I wonder if people read it and feel like I do, when I read something by someone who doesn't really see what I love in B/A: this person is *trying* to write Spike, but she's not initiated into The Secret That Is Spike, and she never will be. It makes me sad. I bang at the doors of the secret, but it won't ever quite let me in. I am rambling *so* much right now, and I'm about to stop, full stop.

Yep.

Stopping.

[makd.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Gotta give this a lot of thought before responding to it, but generally, if the writing is bad, I won't read it. If I don't recognize the character from canon, I won't read it.

That said, with one exception (Estepheia's Cues and Balls), every single Spander fic I've ever read has Spike with some guy named Xander who is kinda like the Xander on BtVS, but way cooler and a LOT less judgmental. (to repeat my mantra: the xander in spander ain't xander.)

That said, I have read about a dozen Spander fics, but only because the writer is terrifically talented (Anna S, Shadowscast, Ladycat, Witling, 2 ladies of quality), and I like the Xanders they've created.

And ITA on the wholesale elimination of certain characters from fics as character bashing by elimination. And you know what? those fics usually read like crap, so I don't finish them.....

[tkp.livejournal.com]

That said, with one exception (Estepheia's Cues and Balls), every single Spander fic I've ever read has Spike with some guy named Xander who is kinda like the Xander on BtVS, but way cooler and a LOT less judgmental. (to repeat my mantra: the xander in spander ain't xander.)

Now this is something else again I'd like to post about, or meta about, or at least rant about inarticulately but with passion. There's canon based fic, and then there's AU, and then there's crack, right--and this, this Xander shaped person, is he crack? Because he isn't in character?

Have you read Sue's Sunday Morning Coming Down? It's S/X, but Spike and Xander are IN CHARACTER. But...not. Because they would never sleep together. The fic confuses me because I don't know where to place it on the continuum of in character, not in character, crack and au and canon.

And ITA on the wholesale elimination of certain characters from fics as character bashing by elimination. And you know what? those fics usually read like crap, so I don't finish them.....

I've read some that were okay, but that's when I want a fix on a character or a pairing. Sometimes when I need to read B/A, just about anything will do...

[scribesds.livejournal.com]

This is a very tricky subject. No matter how you view a character, or write them, there will always be somebody who agrees or disagrees with you. Character bashing is wrong. We all know that. If you can't be fair to the character, leave them alone. Riley is a classic example - I'm fed up with people making him the moron, the rapist, the bad guy, just because they don't like him. Riley in canon, would never behave the way they have him behave.

But for me, your argument was spoiled, by this:

In short, I hate on you because you because I feel you're good, but you didn't do what I wanted.

Does that mean an author can only write what you approve of? And how do you know that they have only tried to write a particular character? How do you know that isn't how they really see them? If you take any character, you will see different elements to them. They are all complex, flawed, and changeable. All of them. Why can't somebody write them the way that they really feel? You can still like a character, and think they are a bit of a jerk sometimes.

And what if you think that the writers on the show have got it wrong? In many instances, I think the fan writers understand the characters better than the 'official' ones do. Dork Angel is an example. Turning him into an idiot was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. But it's canon. So, are we wrong for writing him differently?

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Does that mean an author can only write what you approve of?

No. It pretty much means I only enjoy what I enjoy. Which, I understand, is a tautological point. What I was trying to say is that I find reading a well-written characterization by a good writer, which gives me the impression that the good writer does not actually *like* the character in question, is more unpleasant to me than reading an awful, bashing characterization. The reason for this is that in the latter instance, I can dismiss the characterization as bad writing, as being written by someone who obviously was pushing her own agenda instead of writing thoughtfully, insightfully, and skillfully about the canon we all know and love.

In the former instance, I rarely am able to dismiss the characterization because the other characters, and the piece on the whole, is *good*, and the characterization itself is well-handled. And yet, there's something about it giving me a negative vibe: the parts from canon are all there but they are off kilter, the focus is shifted onto traits the character *has* but that I don't think is the center of that character's existence, and over all, there's the impression that this intelligent, insightful writer looked at this character, saw all the faults I see, saw all the greatness I see--and still doesn't love the character, doesn't *feel* what I feel is so special about him/her. And that? Distresses me. It is expecting everyone who is logical and intelligent to like what I like, and that is narrow-minded and perverse. That's also how I feel, when someone writes a character and I read between the lines that they don't like said character.

And how do you know that they have only tried to write a particular character? How do you know that isn't how they really see them?

I don't know. As I said to someone above: it's concievable that I could read a Buffy by a Buffy-lover, and still come away with the impression that the author secretly hated Buffy and was only trying to write Buffy as she did for the purposes of loyalty to canon. It's also concievable that I could read a Buffy by a Buffy-hater, and come away with the impression that the author loves Buffy and portrayed her this way out of love. But I have rarely found those instances to be the case. It's more often that when I recieve that impression, that the writer does, actually, hate Buffy.

Why can't somebody write them the way that they really feel? You can still like a character, and think they are a bit of a jerk sometimes.

This is pretty much the exact opposite of what I'm talking about. I'm talking about writers who don't like the characters, and try to write like they like them, out of respect for canon, good writing, and possibly other people's points of view. Of course, as you pointed out, I sometimes have no way of *knowing* whether or not the writer likes the character, and whether the writer is writing them this way out of love or out of an attempt to respect what they cannot like. And I am not dogging on these writers for being "insincere"--the *effort* to write characters they don't like with care and respect is certainly a sincere effort. And I'm not talking about a writer who doesn't like a character, and who writes with truth and skill about that characters flaws--I often love characters *because* of their flaws.

And what if you think that the writers on the show have got it wrong? ...So, are we wrong for writing him differently?

I have difficulty with the premise that canon is "wrong." Canon just is. Do I think they fucked with Cordy's character S3 of Angel? I sure do. But it's there. I'm not going to discard the things she said and did just because I didn't agree with them.

That said, we all have our interpretations of canon. As I said above to someone else: my B/A is not your B/A is not Joss Whedon's B/A. I am happy with that state of affairs. I love seeing new and different interpretations. And in my head, I really appreciate it when someone tries to respect the characters I love, by not bashing them, by attempting to write them justly and fairly. But when such efforts fail, I *feel* that reading those efforts is actually more distasteful than if they hadn't tried at all.

[chrisleeoctaves.livejournal.com]

I love B/A, but I don't like how lots of B/Aers like B/A.
heh.

First off, germaine_pet and I talk about this all the time- how really good fanfiction offers the best of all possible worlds: great writing (which I understand is totally subjective) and great characterization (which is generally the reason I don't like AUs that much-because once you make Buffy a crack!whore- yes, southernbangel, I'm looking at you- then, to me, she's not Buffy anymore.)

And of course, the stories I like best are the stories where the characters act and interact the way I imagine they would...and that is, obviously, coloured by my personal views of the characters and their relationships with each other. So, for example, I recently read a story where Buffy received letters from both Angel and Spike and...you know what, I didn't believe for one second in Angel's letter. I think the writer might have been B/S-centric...and so Angel's letter just didn't ring true. I didn't even bother to read past that.

I think the best writers are the writers who- while they may ship a certain pairing- have affection and respect for *all* the characters. I, too, was always flabbergasted at the amount of hatred people had for Cordy and Spike when they 'threatened' the Buffy/Angel relationship. My view is that Buffy/Angel is not a relationship you can actually threaten. They may be with other people, they made have strong feelings for other people- for goodness sake, they did, but fundamentally, I don't think B/A will ever be to anyone else what they were/are to each other. And that's canon. Watch Chosen. But- stories that put them in a bubble, ignore the messiness of their pasts, make Angel this white knight with a spotless record and Buffy this damsel in need of rescuing...those are not *my* characters. They may be yours and I bet you'll have scads of readers who agree- which is the beauty of fandom. To me, any story is possible if the characters are *in* character. (With the exception of AU, for the reasons stated...and yes, I have written AU- sue me.)

To be truthful, I do have favourite characters to write: I love to write Buffy and Angel, of course- even though I find Buffy extremely difficult to write. I love writing Spike, Wes and Giles. I don't shy away from Xander or Willow. I find Faith hard, but I have written her. I've used Gunn and Fred and Lorne and Riley...and even Groo...and they all have certain challenges. But the bottom line is- I love them all. All their journeys are worthy of examination and admiration. And loving them a little bit allows me to love my favourite pairing a lot.

And I don't think I have actually answered your question.

*g*

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I recently read a story where Buffy received letters from both Angel and Spike

Yeah, let's stop right there. I actually have a hard time believing either of them would even write letters. I've seen it in some fics and liked it, but I just don't see either one of them doing it. Well, I see Spike writing lots and lots and lots of letters, and burning them all. Angel, I see him looking at the pen, looking at the paper, and saying, "uh, you want me to do what?"

I think the best writers are the writers who- while they may ship a certain pairing- have affection and respect for *all* the characters.

Well, maybe. But I would think that would be depressing for someone who just can't bring themselves to like Xander, or Buffy, or Angel, or whoever. I mean, you can't help who you like. Which is why I feel bad when someone who doesn't like a character I love really *tries* to do justice to them, and I hate it so much--because the writer is *trying* to move beyond their personal feelings to do justice to a canon that they love, if they can't love the specific character. And that's just sad.

My view is that Buffy/Angel is not a relationship you can actually threaten.

I feel that way, too.

And loving them a little bit allows me to love my favourite pairing a lot.

Now this does make a lot of sense. Even though some A/Sers profess to hate Buffy, and some B/Sers hate Angel, and some B/Aers hate Spike--even though I accept that and respect it and so on--I don't get it. I don't get how you could love B/A and hate Spike. To me, Spike is a big part of who Angel is. Spike is a TREMENDOUS part of what Buffy becomes. If you want to stick to B/A seasons 1-3, and maybe season 4 and 5, ok, maybe, but if you're working with a Buffy after S6 and not in any way caring for Spike and what she went through with him...you're missing a larger point.

I'm not sure I had a question. I just wanted to whine about how narrow-minded I can be. Ha!

[entrenous88.livejournal.com]

This is such a complicated subject to engage with as a respondant, in large part because your reactions are so visceral (you mention vomiting/nausea, I don't know, bunches of times). It makes me wary, more wary than usual rants that certainly feature upset and railing at particular fic or fanon practices, but not so much with the bile directed at writers (specific ones, I'm assuming).

Hmmm. I've certainly read good writers or pretty-good writers produce fics that don't handle characters well, though often I feel like they *do* like the characters in question rather than hating them secretly in their heart of hearts. Mostly it's the writing that I think has failed in that case -- I can see where it's sloppy, where it should have gotten polished in one last push before it got posted, which it didn't and won't now get. Sometimes it's that the person likes the character(s) too much, and can't really see their way to dealing with flaws and fissures that would come up in the course of such a series of actions and interactions.

I've definitely encountered stories that were written with competent-to-very-good prose that didn't work for me, because it seemed like there's something missing: a spark, passion for the characters, one of those phoning-it-in things on the writer's part. But I doubt you mean anything like that, or your reactions wouldn't be so strong.

I can only think of a few examples of fanfiction stories that convinced me that the writer did indeed hate the character. We're not talking bashing, or failure to get a character, but actual anger directed towards that character that testified throughout the story in every choice and action the writer made.

Hmmm. I like all the major characters in the Buffyverse. I even like most of the minor ones (except that Shelia -- man, "School Hard" is a nearly perfect episode but for that actress's terrible performance). I'm vaguely curious if *you* think I hate on certain characters despite my contention that I like them, but I think in the end I'd rather not know.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I should've let it stew a lot longer before I posted it. I usually do--but then again, that's why I went straight ahead and clicked the button, because I have so many half-formulated posts busy stewing on my hard drive.

The visceralness of it, I think, is because *intellectually*, I would prefer a writer to *try*. I would prefer if an author doesn't like a character, that instead of bashing said character or pointlessly deleting her, that the writer would make the attempt to respect this character, that the writer wouldn't take the easy way out, that the writer would make every attempt to write a serious fic that is faithful to canon and the characters as they really are. However, when this attempt fails, my gut reaction is different. When someone who really does dislike the character--or feels only apathy for her--tries to do this, and I am reading the failed result of this, I find it more unpleasant than if the writer hadn't made the attempt at all and resorted to bashing. So, it's a gut reaction, not an intellectual one. Intellectually, I would prefer that everyone try as hard as they can to write well.

I've certainly read good writers or pretty-good writers produce fics that don't handle characters well, though often I feel like they *do* like the characters in question rather than hating them secretly in their heart of hearts.

I've read good writers who don't handle certain characters well either, but yeah, what I'm talking about are the specific instances in which I *do* feel the writer dislikes the character, and is *only* writing that character out of an attempt to be faithful to canon or craft, and when that attempt fails in my estimation.

I can only think of a few examples of fanfiction stories that convinced me that the writer did indeed hate the character. We're not talking bashing, or failure to get a character, but actual anger directed towards that character that testified throughout the story in every choice and action the writer made.

I'm not sure I can think of *any* examples, because I suck at examples, and I wasn't thinking of anything specifc when I wrote this. It's rather vitriolic, yes, but that's because it's been something that I feel I've seen a *lot*, and it's always bothered me in the 6 years I've been reading fanfiction. And, sometimes it *has* only manifested in a lack of passion for the character or 'ship, which just feels off and wrong, but it's even more unsettling when the author seems like she's trying to write a character I love honestly and fairly, and yet there's this feeling that the author secretly has no real respect for the character.

except that Shelia -- man, "School Hard" is a nearly perfect episode but for that actress's terrible performance).

She really was pretty bad, huh.

I'm vaguely curious if *you* think I hate on certain characters despite my contention that I like them, but I think in the end I'd rather not know.

Well, you said you'd rather not know, but I'm going to tell you anyway. Everything I've ever read by you is filled with light. Even the sad bits, or bittersweet things, are filled with such a passion and gladness and love for the 'verse and the characters and the writing itself. It's one of the things I've always loved most about your writing, and I hope you never stop.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Personally, I give far more brownie points to someone trying to understand a character or pairing, than someone bashing and/or dismissing them. At least they're making an effort. I don't feel obligated to read any fic, regardless of whether its a pairing I like or do not like. But I do appreciate when someone who writes S/B doesn't bash Angel or B/A. It had its time and place and it's important to the characters. Same goes for A/S fic. And simply on principle I dislike a character bashing fic. If a B/A fic is covered in Spike bashing, I grit my teeth. I may read a B/A fic that is solely about B/A, or if the B/A fic tries to keep Spike within canon. But the moment it slides into Spike bashing, I'm out of there (and rather dismissive of the fic). I'm no Xander fan, but there are ways to write Xander that's an attempt to understand him and to even be sympathetic to him. But even though I'm not a real fan of the character, if I see that the fic has detoured into Xander bashing, I'm outta there.

One thing I've discovered is that even fans of a character can see a character very, very, very differently, so I don't require a writer to write each and every character the way that I see them. But, I at least need to believe that some effort has been made to understand a character. I at least need to believe that it's a legitimate interpretation of the character in canon. It may not be my interpretation, but I would like it to in some way relate to the primary text. I need to be able to believe it within context.

I'm babbling.

Anyway, it boils down to, I will read and appreciate a story that doesn't exactly match my own interpretation of a character and/or a pairing. It doesn't have to be a perfect fit for how I see them, because Joss left a lot of room for subjectivity. But if it somehow wanders so far afield that it's revealing a writer's hatred of a character, then I tend to view it as bad writing. If you hate a character, don't write them is usually my view. I'm willing to read various interpretations of a character or pairing. I'm not willing to put up with out and out bashing.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Personally, I give far more brownie points to someone trying to understand a character or pairing, than someone bashing and/or dismissing them. At least they're making an effort.

Intellectually, this is the way I feel. Bashing is bad writing, it's lazy, it's disrespectful; and it's kinda pointless except to rile people up on one side or the other, as far as I can see. But emotionally, when I'm reading a fic for which the author *has* made the effort, but has failed in my opinion because I'm reading between the lines that they don't actually like the character--I'm more put out than I am when there's bashing. It's my personal reaction, that again, doesn't make sense or any kind of justice intellectually.

One thing I've discovered is that even fans of a character can see a character very, very, very differently, so I don't require a writer to write each and every character the way that I see them.

Oh, yeah. I *love* different points of view, and different interpretations. And some interpretations I don't agree with, but I respect them for what they are. Even interpretations that are again, as I describe, solely the attempt of the writer to treat justly a character they don't actually like--yeah, I respect that. But reading the latter? I don't *like* it.

I at least need to believe that it's a legitimate interpretation of the character in canon. It may not be my interpretation, but I would like it to in some way relate to the primary text. I need to be able to believe it within context.

This may actually be the difference. I would actually rather read a Buffy by a Buffy-lover that veered significantly from canon, than a Buffy by a Buffy-hater that was trying to do justice to canon. The latter writer couldn't bash Buffy, because that's not how Buffy is in canon and that's not how she's treated. But when the dislike for the character comes through, even when the writer is trying to write the character fairly, I think I would rather read a much different interpretation of Buffy that at least felt like the author respected the character I love.

I'm babbling.

I don't think you are. These are all valid points.

If you hate a character, don't write them is usually my view.

Well, that's a smart road to take, but what I'm talking about here is when that becomes difficult to avoid. As in, you really *do* hate Spike but you really *want* to write Buffy coming to W&H in S5 and staying and having a long extended relationship with Angel--how can you avoid writing Spike then? You can pretend Spike doesn't exist, but as I stated above, that in itself is kind of lazy, even BAD writing. So, you can make the attempt to deal with Spike justly and fairly in a way that gradually fades him out of the picture, or at least shows why he and Buffy no longer have their thing, or whatever--but, like I say above, and author who hates Spike trying to write Spike well, who doesn't succeed and gives me the impression between the lines that the writer doesn't *really* respect Spike--that's difficult for me to read.

But, like I said, we all have our own reactions. The way people talk about bashing, I assume it turns people off way more than this does. I just happen to have a slightly different reaction.

[electricalgwen.livejournal.com]

This is part of what holds me back from writing certain characters. It's not that I don't like them - but I know I don't have their "voice" right, and I know that people who usually do read/write/love them will be able to tell, and object. And I can't seem to write Angel. I know I fail.

I love Angel. I want to write him, flaws, virtues, frustrations, mistakes and all. But every time I try, I read it over and think, "Man, this isn't Angel." Currently he has to make an appearance in something I'm trying to write - so far I have him barely saying anything, and even the few things he says sound awkward and wrong to me. I will probably rewrite that section more than any other. I can't do him justice, and I don't know why.

Spike, on the other hand, poses no problem. Mind you, whether anyone else thinks I write a "proper" Spike is arguable (and if you hate him - Spike in general, or mine in particular - please don't tell me, I'm having a fragile day!), but I just seem to inhabit his head space more readily and effortlessly (and isn't that a scary thought!)

In the end, does it really matter what the writer's feelings were, or if you interpreted them correctly? You're describing your response to particular fics, and that is by definition subjective. I appreciate that you made this post about what you really feel, and ask what others experience, especially as it's getting a lot of visceral response (that word again :) - and I think you make a great distinction between the head and the gut. I totally get that. I may know there is no monster in my basement, but still get a knot in my stomach if I have to go down there in pitch dark. I may know there's no logical reason for me to be jealous of X, but I am anyway. We're not always logical people. If a story bothers you - that's a valid reaction. It doesn't mean it's bad writing (as you point out), nor does it mean the author is wrong for writing it that way, or for not liking your characters, or having different interpretations of them. But you have every right to react the way you do. I imagine you can't help it. That's what visceral, sympathetic reactions are all about.

I find it very unsettling in general, when intelligent people that I respect disagree with me on something, because my gut reaction tends to be either a) Oh God, They must be right, and how could I be so mistaken about something that's important to me, or b) Oh God, They won't like me because I disagree with Them and They will think I am Stupid. I'm not saying this is the correct or well-adjusted way to respond. *g*

[tkp.livejournal.com]

It's so funny, because our current ficcing situations mirror each other. I love Angel, feel I understand Angel, and while I don't feel I always write him perfectly, I am *comfortable* writing him. Now, I love Spike--I adore Spike, so I hope that doesn't bust your bad day!--but I don't feel like I understand him all that well, and that's why I get nervous from time to time about writing him. And I'm writing a fic right now with a lot of him in it, which subconsciously probably why I made this post!

But as someone pointed out below: loving a character and not understanding him is different than *not* loving the character. I think that if you do love a character, it can always be hit and miss whether you yourself, and also your audience, will feel like you got him "right", but I don't know, it feels so *different* to me to read a characterization I disagree with when the love is there. In those cases, I disagree, and my reaction isn't so violent.

And as I said, I'm a hypocrite, because I *do* believe the best thing is to try. You can't get anywhere without trying; you don't get better at writing the character if you never give him a chance. So go on, you! I know this post wasn't the most inspiring thing for you to read if you're trying to write a character you don't feel like you quite have a grasp on, but I really hope you give it a go, and I wish you the best.

In the end, does it really matter what the writer's feelings were, or if you interpreted them correctly? You're describing your response to particular fics, and that is by definition subjective.

Yeah, exactly. I just wished I'd been cool headed enough when I wrote this to make that distinction. This is really about how *I* feel, and it's not something that's necessarily right or that I agree with on an intellectual level.

I find it very unsettling in general, when intelligent people that I respect disagree with me on something, because my gut reaction tends to be either a) Oh God, They must be right, and how could I be so mistaken about something that's important to me, or b) Oh God, They won't like me because I disagree with Them and They will think I am Stupid. I'm not saying this is the correct or well-adjusted way to respond.

Yeah, I'm very glad you said that, because I get unsettled, too. Although my response is generally: 1) you must not be so smart after all! and 2) you're wrong!--which of course is no more a correct or well-adjusted reaction than yours. I *like* different points of view, I love looking at things in new ways, I really enjoy a good debate. But when it gets down to an emotional level sometimes I just can't understand, or at least have trouble with the fact, that a rational, competent, insightful person might not feel like I do.

Thanks for understanding! You've got some really interesting thoughts, here...much more rationally stated than me getting my guts on everyone! :o)

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

I think I've read this post 3 times now, and I'm still having a hard time forming my thoughts. Since I spent my first days (eons) in the fandom reading primarily S/X...I wouldn't say that I had canon on my mind all the time. No! With an AU pairing like that, it came down for me to the story. Was there a story (beyond hooking them up)? Did I like the story? And then I'd look at the characterization of the pairing and that of (if any) ensemble characters. I've read more than one S/X fic that made me think, "Wow...this writer really doesn't like Buffy/Anya/Willow, etc." And not so much in a bashing way (although that happened) but in a way that I felt that the writer had to include Willow or Buffy because, well, they were THERE but didn't really care about how well characterized the character was as opposed to how one of the main characters (Spike or Xander) reacted to them.

When I read canon-based pairings (or characters, if gen) on the other hand, though, I'm a bit more harsh in my opinionation. If Buffy/Angel doesn't feel like canon B/A (or MY perception of canon B/A) I quickly lose interest. Since I cut my teeth on reading pairings that had to explain the inception of the pairing (S/X or even to a degree S/A) I'm more interested in character growth or character study in B/A and S/B stories than I am in the writer telling me how in love they are. I know my idea of how they feel for each other, I'm more interested in stories that explore where they are and what they're doing together than WHO they are. Make sense?

Don't get me wrong - I've started to read many an S/X or S/A that made me think, "Wow. You just wanted to make 2 pretty guys fuck," which is fine if that's the focus of your story. But if the writer has lured me in with a PLOT and then has a blond guy named Spike and dark-haired guy named...something else...speaking and acting like characters from one of those "Caitlin" novels stoney321 keeps talking about...well.

And I see what you mean about reading stories that incorporated Connor (if it's Angel based) or Willow (if it's Xanderiffic) but didn't really seem to have a grasp on either of those characters other than that they were somewhat important to the protaganist and should therefore be mentioned. In truth, I'd almost rather have those stories say Willow was in Oxford or Connor was off on a weapons buying trip than have to read "I'll magick you all up, Xan, 'cause you're my best friend, and fellow Slayerette!" or "You're not my real father!" one more time.

But I've taken good prose and well told tale over my take on great canon characterization more than once. And I've read great characterization in stories that bored me to tears. And I'll be the first one to say that while I liked the story I wrote in my one long plotty tale, my take on Xander is about 3 scenes canon and a whole lotta Sue.

But what I respect most are stories that have great Buffy or Angel characterization because *I* find those characters the hardest to write. I feel like I get them both, but making the words sound like someting either of them would say is a challenge. Am I even talking about your post anymore? :) But yes - deal breaker for me on any story whether it's gen or 'ship are badly characterized Buffy and Angel. I'd rather read a Human AU about the pairing of choice than suffer through randomly bitchy Buffy or hopelessly romantic Angel, even if done with honest intentions. *passes the barf bag*

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I think I've read this post 3 times now, and I'm still having a hard time forming my thoughts.

Possibly because I wasn't making much sense. I think I was a little ...upset. Then again, I've never seen anyone address *quite* this particular issue. I didn't know how to articulate it.

Since I spent my first days (eons) in the fandom reading primarily S/X...I wouldn't say that I had canon on my mind all the time.

This is such an interesting issue to me. Because the thing about something like S/X is . . . you *can* write it in character...except for the part where Xander is sleeping with Spike. We've talked about this before. But the definitions there, of canon, au, crack or whatever, really interest me.

I'm more interested in character growth or character study in B/A and S/B stories than I am in the writer telling me how in love they are. I know my idea of how they feel for each other, I'm more interested in stories that explore where they are and what they're doing together than WHO they are. Make sense?

Perfect sense. I'm that way too. I think this is why fluff can often be bad, though I don't think it's bad as a genre. But people use fluff as a vehicle to show what they are instead of how they work. Yup.

In truth, I'd almost rather have those stories say Willow was in Oxford or Connor was off on a weapons buying trip than have to read "I'll magick you all up, Xan, 'cause you're my best friend, and fellow Slayerette!" or "You're not my real father!" one more time.

Yes, this is *exactly* what I mean. It's not necessarily about *bad* characterization, but characterization that's only there because the author felt it somehow necessary. And that often rings hollow, or off, or for the most part...just distasteful, and I'd actually rather see that character at all. I don't know why, because intellectually I'd rather someone make the effort than go about deleting characters or sending them to Abudabi or bashing them up.

But I've taken good prose and well told tale over my take on great canon characterization more than once. And I've read great characterization in stories that bored me to tears. And I'll be the first one to say that while I liked the story I wrote in my one long plotty tale, my take on Xander is about 3 scenes canon and a whole lotta Sue.

I'm not so much talking about faithfulness to canon as I am the feeling you get when someone's writing a character they don't like, *just* to be faithful to canon. That latter when it fails, that bothers me, not because the writer is so very sincere and earnest and making such and *effort*, but because I find it unpleasant to read. I would rather read a version of Xander that is farther from canon by someone who loves Xander, someone who understands Xander's specialness, than an extremely faithful-to-canon Xander by someone who is only writing Xander out of obedience to canon.

I'd rather read a Human AU about the pairing of choice than suffer through randomly bitchy Buffy or hopelessly romantic Angel, even if done with honest intentions.

Well, me too. But when the vibe behind bitchy!Buffy and romantic!Angel is that the writer is only trying to be "honest" to canon, I want to say: don't even try! Don't make the effort! Bash them or delete them as you secretly want to! Just. Stop. Fucking. With them!

Ugh, this is hard to articulate, and I'm finding it frustrating.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I seriously hate bashing as a whole. I've been reading Spuffy fics lately, and there's so much hate for the Scoobies (Buffy, Xander and Willow) that I don't understand. Most, if not all, the Spuffy fics I read had Spike, Anya and Tara (well, I can't blame them when it comes to Tara) being the saintest of the saints, while Willow is actually evil, and when I say evil, I mean SO very evil. Buffy is the shittest woman on earth, and Xander is only there to say "Why haven't you staked Spike yet, Buffy?" *eye roll*

I hate Marty Stu!Xander and Bitch of the bitches!Buffy, but not as much as I hate Sanit!Spike, who appear in so many fics I can't even count.

He appears not only in Spuffy but also Spander and Spangel. While Buffy and Angel are turned into jerks towards Spike the saint woobie, at least Xander is portrayed as a nice guy in Spander. Marty Stue!Xander and Saint!Spike against the evil Scoobies!!! Sigh. Shakes head.

I don't read Spangel much, but I've read some great Spuffy fics where the writer's bias towards the characters doesn't appear at all and she writes them as they appear on TV. I've also read some great Spander fics where Xander has his flaws and is XANDER, and Spike does make mistakes.

There are discussions around Marty Stu!Xander and Saint!Spike here, if you're interested: :)

http://lusciousxander.livejournal.com/33726.html

[tkp.livejournal.com]

That sounds like a lot of what I ran into when I first started reading B/A. I really love lots of the characters, and care for most of them, so bashing really is unpleasant to me. There was especially hate on Spike, Cordy, Riley, and Darla. All of whom I love! So, not cool.

I think some people do it just to let some steam off. I can't honestly believe they think this is how the characters really were in canon.

Reply 1

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting question, especially since I do run into it with both Xander and Faith quite a bit. It's either them who are "just a step to the left" or "just a step to the right" of where I think they should be; or it's everyone around them who's just that step off.

So, from a reader's perspective, I agree with you to a certain extent. I've always argued, "Send the character you dislike out of town on a bus." Or at least de-emphasize them in some way. One way to do that is to set your story in a time and place where disliked character would either be: 1) absent or 2) not around as much. Granted, it limits the time and place in which you can set your story, but personally, I don't take it personally when something "organic" like that happens.

On the other hand, if you're gathering all the "old gang" together to deal with something, but manage to leave out just one or two characters using that same excuse, even though there are several other characters there who should be absent because of that same excuse, I do tend to get my back up.

For example: You want to write a rockin' B/A story that's post-Chosen. I don't think it's a stetch to set it one year later so it's set post-NFA. Spike could've been dusted in the final battle. Or maybe he's all-human William now and has no memory of ever being Spike. Plenty of excuses not to have Spike around, or have his presence limited. I would think it would be palpable.

On the other hand, say you've got a middle-of-NFA story where "the cavalry" arrives. I've already read several stories where everyone from Sunnydale shows, from Giles to Buffy to Willow to Dawn to Faith to Robin to Andrew, to Potential No. 43, yet Xander is completely absent. Usually his absence is explained in a throw away line (when the writer even bothers) that he's not there because he's "in Africa." Like you said, it's almost bashing (but not quite) just by omission. If you can yank Cho Ahn into an NFA fight, how hard is it to at least mention that Xander is there with several Slayers from Africa?

Yet I actully do feel guilty about disliking well-written stories where past relationships or existing emotional bonds between characters, as well as the characters themselves, are slightly twisted off what I perceive to be canon.

I actually do have some flexibility in how all the characters are portrayed in fanfic. Differing points of view and all that. It's like I have this line in my head. If Character X is on this side of my mental line, it's all cool. However, one or two steps beyond that turns me right off. It's the difference (I think) between portraying Xander as someone who knows is his comic books and genre television vs. an all-Star Trek all-the-time fanboi, for example. One side I can buy. The other side sets my teeth right on edge. It's becuse the writer came this close to getting him right, but only went as far as they needed to so they could slap some broad brush-strokes into the story (at least from my point of view).

Also, as a fanfic writer, while I tend to fall on the "set your story in a tme or place where you don't have to deal with certain characters" and "send them out of town on a bus," at the same time, trying to write the characters you dislike in a way that's sympathetic and well-rounded is also a challenge that's too good to pass up. See, I want to be able to write a character I sincerely dislike in such a way that fans of that character figure I've nailed them.

Re: Reply 2

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

But again, it ends up coming down to reader perception. For example, I'm a Xander-centric writer. I think I do him fairly well. Since I write him mostly post-'Chosen,' yes, his characterization might not match up exactly with, say, S1 Xander. Some people like the way I characterize him. Other people insist that I'm an apologist. Others, believe it or not, have accused me of bashing him. So which of these three groups are right? Without knowing where they're coming from (and it's not always clear), it's sometimes hard to respond.

In an opposite extreme, I am not a fan of Spike, therefore I don't write him that often. Yet I'm in the middle of writing a story where Spike is one of the central characters. To keep me honest, I grabbed six or seven people out of the dozen-and-a-half or so who (I think) write a well-balanced Spike to go over the story with a fine-toothed comb. It's working out well for me because all of them are being very good about FBing and beta-ing everything down to every word. They think I'm doing a fairly good job.

However, bet you dollars to donuts there'll be people who view Spike's characterization either to the right or to the left of me and my gang of six or seven betas. Someone, somewhere will be calling OOC on Spike when that story shows. That's not even a question in my mind. Part of it is my fault in a way, because I've never made a secret of the fact that Spike's not my favorite character, so people will be looking for OOC-ishness, even if I don't think it's really there.

And you're right. Like you I do feel a little hypocritical about it. Just because I don't like someone's characterization of, say, Xander doesn't mean that their point of view isn't invalid because they chose to highlight certain aspects of his personality more than others. Or because they very obviously are doing it to pay lip-service to the idea of being fair-minded in fanfiction and really don't, or can't, show that character within certain parameters.

I don't know if there's a resolution, nor am I sure that there should be. It's an interesting situation you've shown and it certainly gives me think-y thoughts. So thanks for that.

[rahirah]

Hm. I know what you mean, but I also know that...OK, I write, like the most divisive character in the fandom. There are people out there who love Spike to pieces and are excellent writers. Despite having great love and sympathy for the character, they still write Spike in a way that I really, really don't like. I'm not talking about cracked-out AU fics, either; there are classic Spike fics that make me wince. If I wrote Spike that way, it would be because I didn't like him. But I know for a fact that they do like him–just not in the same way or for the same reasons I do.

There are also people who can't stand a particular character or ship, or are indifferent to them, and who try to do them justice nonetheless. These two types of stories do have distinctly different feels to them, and they bother me in different ways. I'm not sure the second type bothers me more–-in fact, I'm sure it doesn't, because with those, I can always go "OK, you don't like X. That explains it." But if someone does love X, just an X who is, to my mind, some weird what-show-were-you-watching? version of X? When I read such a story, it sometimes makes me almost queasy with the wrongness of it. (And that is exactly what the pro authors who go batshit about fanfic feel. Therefore I sympathize with them even though I disagree with the batshit part.)

But I can't fault the authors for writing them, either way, because, well, heck, I can't bitch at someone for doing what I do myself. There are no characters I hate, (Ok, maybe Eve and the Third Potential On The Left) but there are certainly characters and ships I don't find easy to write, or whom I don't think I get, or whom I don't find as interesting as some of the others. I'm pretty sure that fans of those characters are going to find my depiction wanting. But it's a catch-22; if I never write them, I'll never learn to write them better.

It's been my experience that the more I write a character, the better I like them. But this doesn't mean that the character that I grow to like and feel that I get is going to meet with the approval of everyone else who likes that character–especially if I've worked out my version in relative isolation from other big fans of that character. I love Xander. I love writing Xander. His voice comes easily to me and I feel like I get him. But I'm pretty sure that my portrayal of Xander would not meet the approval of the Xander Fan Community, because I'm not seeing Xander in the same way they see him, or through the lens of shared perceptions and analysis that any fan subgroup will develop over time.

This bothers me, because I want to be all things to all people, dammit! But realistically, there's not a lot I can do about it. I can try to write every character as truly as I can, but as that Pilate guy said, truth is squishy.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

These two types of stories do have distinctly different feels to them, and they bother me in different ways. I'm not sure the second type bothers me more–-in fact, I'm sure it doesn't, because with those, I can always go "OK, you don't like X. That explains it." But if someone does love X, just an X who is, to my mind, some weird what-show-were-you-watching? version of X? When I read such a story, it sometimes makes me almost queasy with the wrongness of it.

This makes a lot of sense. Actually, it seems to make more sense than how I feel--which is that first type bothers me a lot more. Though, if I were to try to explain my feelings, I guess I would say when encountering the second type, "well, but I understand why so and so is writing character X, even though I'm not pleased with her characterization. It's love, and 'cause I love that character, I *get* wanting to write him all the time." Whereas with the first type I just want to boil it all down to, "Don't like him, then don't write him!"--But I do understand why a writer would try to spend the time trying to fairly write a character they don't like. That's out of love, too, but it's more out of a love for the craft and for canon as a whole. And I like to point fingers and make sharp decisive comments, apparently!

But I can't fault the authors for writing them, either way, because, well, heck, I can't bitch at someone for doing what I do myself.

Me neither, and I hope I didn't sound that way. Well, I know I did a bit. I would be the last person on earth to tell anyone "don't even try", and that's not what this was about at all.

I feel the way you do--in writing a character, I come to understand them better, and sometimes even like them better.

especially if I've worked out my version in relative isolation from other big fans of that character.

This, though, is something that I feel actually strengthens writing. Characterization so often can become something that's based more on other people's fic and fanon than canon, and after a while every Xander starts to sound the same. It's so often refreshing when someone is coming at it new from a completely different angle.

But yeah, it works the opposite way too. If a writer didn't like Xander, by reading what the Xander Fan Community is writing, that writer could understand how a Xander-lover interprets the character, and maybe that writer would have an easier time *trying* to present a "fair" Xander.

This bothers me, because I want to be all things to all people, dammit! But realistically, there's not a lot I can do about it. I can try to write every character as truly as I can, but as that Pilate guy said, truth is squishy.

Yeah, exactly. I would far rather try and fail than not try at all. I just...sometimes wish I didn't have to read other people's failed attempts. Which is mean-spirited and unfair, in light of what I myself am doing, but there ya go! Truth.

[my_daroga]

This is a fascinating observation. There is definitely something insulting about the opinions of people whose opinions you respect being different from yours. If that was English. It's *personal*, because you're invested in that writer's work and possibly her opinion of *you*--and you just might feel implicated in this negative opinion about your personal woobie.

I know I get pissed when Mr. D looks at chicks I don't think are cute--not because he's looking at chicks (don't we all?) but because she's not my kind of girl. He can love on Veronica or Mac all he wants, but he has this thing for Clea Duval I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND and it pisses me off. Like, for real, I get angry. Because it implies that his taste, or mine, is suspect, and that's untenable for me when our relationship is a lot about taste. Or, you know, has an element of that.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Because it implies that his taste, or mine, is suspect

I think that's exactly it. My gut reaction is to always blame someone else's tastes, and not mine. And I spent a lot of time in this thread explaining to people that that's how my gut feels, but that I realize intellectually that I'm not always right, and that it's indeed possible for two different intelligent people to have two different opinions.

But reading it in fanfic drives me wilikers! I'm glad you understand! The rant wasn't very well thought out, and because it's something that I really feel rather than think, it's been a bitch to explain.

Have I mentioned that that icon is so cute!