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Rant On Characterization!
When I first started reading fanfic, around 6 years ago, I read a lot of character bashing. It always kind of boggled me. It seemed obvious that the writer couldn't possibly believe that that was how such and so a character really was in canon, but rather that the writer was pushing an agenda: mongering hate for a character they didn't like, or what was more distasteful to me, for a character that was competition for their 'ship of choice. Now, I say it was confusing for me. It was also frustrating for me, because I would prefer to see the characters as they were actually portrayed in canon.
So when, actually about 5 years later, I found lj, where everyone talks about fic and fic writing and is much more intelligent on average, I was really pleased to find that many people actually dislike bashing. Many people not only dislike the negative motivations on the part of the writer, but actually view bashing as bad writing, because it doesn't hold to canon, because it is about the writer's preferences, because it's an easy way out for writing a character you don't like, instead of taking the time to understand them. In fact, around the parts of fandom in which I play, this is pretty much taken for granted. Bashing is in bad taste, a squick, a big no-no. And man, is it nice to be around people who feel that way.
Okay, but most of us still dislike certain characters. Instead of bashing, the number one solution is not to write said characters. But say the character you hate is Spike, and the characters you absolutely love happen to be Buffy and Angel, and you want to do a fic in which Buffy comes to LA mid-AtS S5 and gradually picks up a relationship again with Angel. If you want to write that scenario, pretty much, imo, you're going to be writing some Spike, or at least writing characters talking about Spike. Saying, "pretend Spike didn't come back to life" is, in some ways, just plain lazy (bad) writing. Having Spike just not appear or not come up at all is bad writing, because it doesn't take in to consideration what's going on in canon (unless there is a good excuse, in which case describing the excuse will involve writing about Spike). Mentioning Spike, or having him appear briefly, without him being a significant factor in Buffy's life, Buffy's feeling, Buffy's relationship with Angel, Angel's life, Angel's feelings, and Angel's feelings for Buffy, is, imo, a form of bashing. Buffy comes to L.A. and sees him alive for the first time since Sunnydale, and the only thing important going on is whatever's up with her and Angel? That diminishes what Spike and Buffy had, that diminishes Spike, and that diminishes everything Buffy's been through in the last few years.
Okay, so, if you're set on doing your B/A fic during these times and these particular circumstances, if you're going to write a good fanfic, a well-written fic without bashing, what a writer should do is make the attempt. Make the attempt to write Spike, even though you don't like him. Make the attempt to be fair to him. Make the attempt to understand him. Make the attempt to respect B/S. Make the attempt to sympahtize with B/S. Try to write these characters in a way that's true to who they really are, in a way that takes into considerations the feeling they have for each other, and show how they're moving on from each other, and why--or how they're not moving on, how they will always have a something, but why Buffy's decided to be with Angel now, or whatever. Make the attempt.
Except, sometimes, I just hate that.
Bit of a hypocrite. I've written characters I don't like, characters with whom I don't sympathize, and/or characters whom I don't feel I understand as well as I ought. When I write those characters, I try to like them, or try to sympathize, or try to understand. I've had mixed success--sometimes I feel like I really did a character justice, sometimes not.
It's hit and miss all over. I've read Angel in fics by people who claim Angel is a character they tend to feel apathy towards, and I've liked their portrayal of Angel. But what's really bad, what really makes me feel pukey, is when a writer tries, and doesn't quite make it. A writer who feels apathetic toward Xander, or doesn't understand Xander, or hates Xander, but tries to be fair to him. A writer who think B/A is lame, but understands it's very much a part of both Buffy and Angel, so tries to take that into account in their B/S fic. Tries, and doesn't quite come up to snuff. It's more unpleasant to me than having a character just written out, or having the writer pretend that the character doesn't exist at all. To me, it's even more unpleasant than bashing.
When a character gets bashed, it's like I can tune it out. If Buffy is a bitch who's breaking up Spike and Xander's happiness because she's an attention mongering whore who hates gay people, I can pretend that she's an OC who just happens to be named Buffy. When a character doesn't appear, or doesn't show up when she should, or got sent on a mysterious mission to Honolulu, or got written out by a line in the author's note, I can say, yay! AU! What I can't do, is pretend that a character who walks like Buffy, talks like Buffy, acts like Buffy, feels like Buffy, isn't Buffy. But there were those little things, those few little tweaks to things she might really say, or things she might really do, that make me suspect you secretly hate her, make me suspect you're only writing her to be good and fair, make me suspect that what you'd really like to say is, "S/X forevah die Buffy die," or, what's somehow even worse, "S/X forevah. Buffy who?"--it's those little bits, and my big suspicions, those're what I really hate.
Okay, okay, I get that you the writer want Angel to get together with Spike, and you as an intelligent and good writer have realized that Buffy might have a thought or two about this, and you want to do justice to her, and to canon. But sometimes, instead of saying, "hey, nice try with that!" I sometimes just want to say: "BACK OFF MY BUFFY. Kill her off, make her into a raging evil screaming bitch, I don't care, but don't write her voice so well, don't make her seem like Buffy, if you're not going to portray her in exactly the light I feel like she should be portrayed."
Which is obviously, soulless and bitchy of me. After all, I'm not necessarily talking about bad writing. I'm not necessarily talking about bad characterization--not quite. (Though, okay, let's, just for a minute. In the same vein of this whole rant, what about when Angel doesn't get bashed, even though he's in the way of your Buffy/Spike, but instead he turns...matchmaker. Starts saying stuff like, "Buffy is so in love with Spike. They deserve to be happy together." Bad writing, but it's "politer" than bashing--but it makes me sicker than bashing. This is the sick that doesn't give you the little shivers like when Spike is confused about his actual paternity in the middle of sex, no siree. This is sick with a capital S which rhymes with mess which is VOMIT.)
Anyway, but really, I'm not talking about lazy writers who didn't make the effort. I'm talking about writers whose views of a character don't line up with mine. A difference of opinion, that's all. And, you know, this difference of opinion does happen just as much with people who love the characters I love, and the 'ships I love: I love B/A, but I don't like how lots of B/Aers like B/A. I love Wesley, but I haven't liked how some Wesley fans write Wesley.
But somehow, that's not the same. When a B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, there are probably two factors at work. 1) The writing is centered on B/A. The writing is, imo, sub-par. Thus, I can choose to to ignore the writing (the fic) completely. and 2) I don't get the feeling in reading this B/A, sub-par writing, that the author dislikes B/A. I get the feeling that the author doesn't view the 'ship the way I do, and can't write it the way I would want it to be written, but at least they respect what I like.
When a non-B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, but is trying to portray them in a good way rather than ignoring them or bashing them, two different things are usually at work. 1) The writing is usually not B/A centric--it's B/S or S/A or A/C or whatever. The writing can be great, especially since this is obviously a writer who tries, who takes the time, who understands a good fic is about characters we know from the show--that's why this writer, even though she hates B/A, is trying to respect B/A. Thus, if I want to read good B/S, or A/S, or A/C, or what have you...well, I could still ignore this fic because of the botched B/A, but I would be missing out. and 2. I get the feeling in reading this attempt at B/A, this attempt to write B/A well, that the author secretly hates B/A, or doesn't respect B/A, or is dismissive/apathetic/disinterested in B/A, and is just writing the B/A so their B/S, S/A, or C/A will make sense--like it's a chore. In the kind of fic I'm talking about, the kind where the author is trying but it's not working for me, I can smell it. I can smell the author saying, "Ugh, I have to do the B/A part now" and it makes me sick. Way sicker than if the author had just left B/A out of it, or if the author had bashed one or the other into an unrecognizable, rapist, crying, screaming banshee.
The point is, if you don't like Faith (whom I also love), but are trying to do justice to Faith in your Angel/Wesley, because this is good writing and you are a good writer . . . and if you fail in that, I will resent you more than I do bad writing and a bad writer who bashed Faith or left her out, just because the writer didn't like Faith. I will resent you more because I feel like you're a good writer and should've done justice to my woobie. The thing that feels the worst, in the pit of my stomach, is the idea that you are a good writer, and a good thinker, and took what you really saw in canon--and this is what you came up with. This isn't some evil bitch you made up and gave the name Faith--you thought about it and you tried and you see the other characters so well and so insightfully, and this is what you saw when you looked at my Faith. In short, I hate on you because you because I feel you're good, but you didn't do what I wanted. I won't hate on the bad ones who didn't do what I wanted. Them I ignore and go on about happily. No. I shall hate you because you are good, and because we disagree, and because I am small, and weak. You are good and you make me puke.
As you can see, I'm not exactly comfortable in this feeling (though I totally am, because look, see, I can be honest about it, and it's not really killing me to make this post). I think it is perverse of me. And yet, that's the way I feel. Show me really really hot A/S smut in which Buffy is ignored or bashed, and I will show you someone who doesn't really give a shit. Someone who can, in fact, still enjoy the smut. But show me a fantastic, kickass, really awesome A/S fic, trying to do justice to Buffy when the writer hates Buffy, show the Buffy bit in that fic not meeting my standards for Buffy--though the writing is decent and there's true effort involved--and I will show you my vomit.
Why is this?
I'm not saying writers shouldn't try to be fair to the characters they don't like, or shouldn't try to understand the characters they don't understand. I try. And I've seen others try and succeed so beautifully it makes my heart hurt--never would've guessed they were uncomfortable writing that character, or that that character isn't their favorite, or that they didn't really want to write that character but did because it was necessary to make the piece work. Never smelled that smell and never got sick at all. But when you try and fail, I feel like throwing tomatoes at you. Maybe it's just in the end, that people who don't try, those who bash, write out, and ignore, don't deserve the fruit. I don't know, but they just don't smell so bad to me. Their writing is worse, their approach, I feel, is worse--but they don't make my eye start twitching.
Thoughts? Opinions? Tomatoes?
ETA: And because I was too ranty to express myself well:![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
redbrickrose states my thoughts exactly here.
So when, actually about 5 years later, I found lj, where everyone talks about fic and fic writing and is much more intelligent on average, I was really pleased to find that many people actually dislike bashing. Many people not only dislike the negative motivations on the part of the writer, but actually view bashing as bad writing, because it doesn't hold to canon, because it is about the writer's preferences, because it's an easy way out for writing a character you don't like, instead of taking the time to understand them. In fact, around the parts of fandom in which I play, this is pretty much taken for granted. Bashing is in bad taste, a squick, a big no-no. And man, is it nice to be around people who feel that way.
Okay, but most of us still dislike certain characters. Instead of bashing, the number one solution is not to write said characters. But say the character you hate is Spike, and the characters you absolutely love happen to be Buffy and Angel, and you want to do a fic in which Buffy comes to LA mid-AtS S5 and gradually picks up a relationship again with Angel. If you want to write that scenario, pretty much, imo, you're going to be writing some Spike, or at least writing characters talking about Spike. Saying, "pretend Spike didn't come back to life" is, in some ways, just plain lazy (bad) writing. Having Spike just not appear or not come up at all is bad writing, because it doesn't take in to consideration what's going on in canon (unless there is a good excuse, in which case describing the excuse will involve writing about Spike). Mentioning Spike, or having him appear briefly, without him being a significant factor in Buffy's life, Buffy's feeling, Buffy's relationship with Angel, Angel's life, Angel's feelings, and Angel's feelings for Buffy, is, imo, a form of bashing. Buffy comes to L.A. and sees him alive for the first time since Sunnydale, and the only thing important going on is whatever's up with her and Angel? That diminishes what Spike and Buffy had, that diminishes Spike, and that diminishes everything Buffy's been through in the last few years.
Okay, so, if you're set on doing your B/A fic during these times and these particular circumstances, if you're going to write a good fanfic, a well-written fic without bashing, what a writer should do is make the attempt. Make the attempt to write Spike, even though you don't like him. Make the attempt to be fair to him. Make the attempt to understand him. Make the attempt to respect B/S. Make the attempt to sympahtize with B/S. Try to write these characters in a way that's true to who they really are, in a way that takes into considerations the feeling they have for each other, and show how they're moving on from each other, and why--or how they're not moving on, how they will always have a something, but why Buffy's decided to be with Angel now, or whatever. Make the attempt.
Except, sometimes, I just hate that.
Bit of a hypocrite. I've written characters I don't like, characters with whom I don't sympathize, and/or characters whom I don't feel I understand as well as I ought. When I write those characters, I try to like them, or try to sympathize, or try to understand. I've had mixed success--sometimes I feel like I really did a character justice, sometimes not.
It's hit and miss all over. I've read Angel in fics by people who claim Angel is a character they tend to feel apathy towards, and I've liked their portrayal of Angel. But what's really bad, what really makes me feel pukey, is when a writer tries, and doesn't quite make it. A writer who feels apathetic toward Xander, or doesn't understand Xander, or hates Xander, but tries to be fair to him. A writer who think B/A is lame, but understands it's very much a part of both Buffy and Angel, so tries to take that into account in their B/S fic. Tries, and doesn't quite come up to snuff. It's more unpleasant to me than having a character just written out, or having the writer pretend that the character doesn't exist at all. To me, it's even more unpleasant than bashing.
When a character gets bashed, it's like I can tune it out. If Buffy is a bitch who's breaking up Spike and Xander's happiness because she's an attention mongering whore who hates gay people, I can pretend that she's an OC who just happens to be named Buffy. When a character doesn't appear, or doesn't show up when she should, or got sent on a mysterious mission to Honolulu, or got written out by a line in the author's note, I can say, yay! AU! What I can't do, is pretend that a character who walks like Buffy, talks like Buffy, acts like Buffy, feels like Buffy, isn't Buffy. But there were those little things, those few little tweaks to things she might really say, or things she might really do, that make me suspect you secretly hate her, make me suspect you're only writing her to be good and fair, make me suspect that what you'd really like to say is, "S/X forevah die Buffy die," or, what's somehow even worse, "S/X forevah. Buffy who?"--it's those little bits, and my big suspicions, those're what I really hate.
Okay, okay, I get that you the writer want Angel to get together with Spike, and you as an intelligent and good writer have realized that Buffy might have a thought or two about this, and you want to do justice to her, and to canon. But sometimes, instead of saying, "hey, nice try with that!" I sometimes just want to say: "BACK OFF MY BUFFY. Kill her off, make her into a raging evil screaming bitch, I don't care, but don't write her voice so well, don't make her seem like Buffy, if you're not going to portray her in exactly the light I feel like she should be portrayed."
Which is obviously, soulless and bitchy of me. After all, I'm not necessarily talking about bad writing. I'm not necessarily talking about bad characterization--not quite. (Though, okay, let's, just for a minute. In the same vein of this whole rant, what about when Angel doesn't get bashed, even though he's in the way of your Buffy/Spike, but instead he turns...matchmaker. Starts saying stuff like, "Buffy is so in love with Spike. They deserve to be happy together." Bad writing, but it's "politer" than bashing--but it makes me sicker than bashing. This is the sick that doesn't give you the little shivers like when Spike is confused about his actual paternity in the middle of sex, no siree. This is sick with a capital S which rhymes with mess which is VOMIT.)
Anyway, but really, I'm not talking about lazy writers who didn't make the effort. I'm talking about writers whose views of a character don't line up with mine. A difference of opinion, that's all. And, you know, this difference of opinion does happen just as much with people who love the characters I love, and the 'ships I love: I love B/A, but I don't like how lots of B/Aers like B/A. I love Wesley, but I haven't liked how some Wesley fans write Wesley.
But somehow, that's not the same. When a B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, there are probably two factors at work. 1) The writing is centered on B/A. The writing is, imo, sub-par. Thus, I can choose to to ignore the writing (the fic) completely. and 2) I don't get the feeling in reading this B/A, sub-par writing, that the author dislikes B/A. I get the feeling that the author doesn't view the 'ship the way I do, and can't write it the way I would want it to be written, but at least they respect what I like.
When a non-B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, but is trying to portray them in a good way rather than ignoring them or bashing them, two different things are usually at work. 1) The writing is usually not B/A centric--it's B/S or S/A or A/C or whatever. The writing can be great, especially since this is obviously a writer who tries, who takes the time, who understands a good fic is about characters we know from the show--that's why this writer, even though she hates B/A, is trying to respect B/A. Thus, if I want to read good B/S, or A/S, or A/C, or what have you...well, I could still ignore this fic because of the botched B/A, but I would be missing out. and 2. I get the feeling in reading this attempt at B/A, this attempt to write B/A well, that the author secretly hates B/A, or doesn't respect B/A, or is dismissive/apathetic/disinterested in B/A, and is just writing the B/A so their B/S, S/A, or C/A will make sense--like it's a chore. In the kind of fic I'm talking about, the kind where the author is trying but it's not working for me, I can smell it. I can smell the author saying, "Ugh, I have to do the B/A part now" and it makes me sick. Way sicker than if the author had just left B/A out of it, or if the author had bashed one or the other into an unrecognizable, rapist, crying, screaming banshee.
The point is, if you don't like Faith (whom I also love), but are trying to do justice to Faith in your Angel/Wesley, because this is good writing and you are a good writer . . . and if you fail in that, I will resent you more than I do bad writing and a bad writer who bashed Faith or left her out, just because the writer didn't like Faith. I will resent you more because I feel like you're a good writer and should've done justice to my woobie. The thing that feels the worst, in the pit of my stomach, is the idea that you are a good writer, and a good thinker, and took what you really saw in canon--and this is what you came up with. This isn't some evil bitch you made up and gave the name Faith--you thought about it and you tried and you see the other characters so well and so insightfully, and this is what you saw when you looked at my Faith. In short, I hate on you because you because I feel you're good, but you didn't do what I wanted. I won't hate on the bad ones who didn't do what I wanted. Them I ignore and go on about happily. No. I shall hate you because you are good, and because we disagree, and because I am small, and weak. You are good and you make me puke.
As you can see, I'm not exactly comfortable in this feeling (though I totally am, because look, see, I can be honest about it, and it's not really killing me to make this post). I think it is perverse of me. And yet, that's the way I feel. Show me really really hot A/S smut in which Buffy is ignored or bashed, and I will show you someone who doesn't really give a shit. Someone who can, in fact, still enjoy the smut. But show me a fantastic, kickass, really awesome A/S fic, trying to do justice to Buffy when the writer hates Buffy, show the Buffy bit in that fic not meeting my standards for Buffy--though the writing is decent and there's true effort involved--and I will show you my vomit.
Why is this?
I'm not saying writers shouldn't try to be fair to the characters they don't like, or shouldn't try to understand the characters they don't understand. I try. And I've seen others try and succeed so beautifully it makes my heart hurt--never would've guessed they were uncomfortable writing that character, or that that character isn't their favorite, or that they didn't really want to write that character but did because it was necessary to make the piece work. Never smelled that smell and never got sick at all. But when you try and fail, I feel like throwing tomatoes at you. Maybe it's just in the end, that people who don't try, those who bash, write out, and ignore, don't deserve the fruit. I don't know, but they just don't smell so bad to me. Their writing is worse, their approach, I feel, is worse--but they don't make my eye start twitching.
Thoughts? Opinions? Tomatoes?
ETA: And because I was too ranty to express myself well:
redbrickrose states my thoughts exactly here.
no subject
I'm not sure why I feel like I don't get him. Because dude, when Spike feels, I feel. I'm watching him with his worshipful Buffy eyes and his "ooh I'm such a bad boy" smirk and the freakin' pattern in the air of the light of his stupid cigarette and his stupid, vulnerable hunched shoulders looking too small for that stupid coat, I feel. But I don't get him.
no subject
Angel is my boy. I love him, I feel him, I get him, I carry his freakin banner to all fen everywhere and in meta and conversation, don't you say bad things about my boy because I will essay you to death about why he is the Champion man, and I will make you FEEL IT. But in fic, I tend to write him as a way less sympathetic character than Spike.
Yea, I don't get that either. Because I love Spike, and I feel Spike, and I still...don't always like Spike. And I have a clear preference for the other guy. But in my fic, Spike typically winds up being - hmm...nicer is too simplistic a word. But certainly easier to love. And again, I have no idea why that is. I don't feel the need to overcompensate, or try harder, or please anyone other than myself when I write. But it ends up this way over and over again.
I could write fluffy Spuffy easier than fluffy B/A and I don't even LIKE Spuffy, and I would go down on the B/A ship.
And aside from this last fic of mine, which I feel like was kind of cheating because it was Buffy talking mostly about her feelings for the two vampires, I can't write Buffy for shit and she is my hero times ten.
I am a ball of confusion.
no subject
But in my fic, Spike typically winds up being - hmm...nicer is too simplistic a word. But certainly easier to love.
For what it's worth, I've always found your Spike to still be mean and scrappy and small and vicious in all the right places. But I see what you describe come up a lot in A/S. In the A/S I prefer, anyway, if I had to choose who to hang out with in the fic I'd pick Spike and stay the hell away from Angel because he's motherfuckin scary.
But actually one of the things that makes me timid about writing Spike is making him too nice, and too lovable. I *don't* always like Spike on-screen; I don't want to always like him when I write him because then it won't be Spike to me, but someone else. Most of all, I don't want Spike to just be . . . the counterpart. The nice against Angel's mean. The insight against Angel's blindness. Etc etc. I think that's an easy trap to fall into, especially when you do have a preference for The Other Guy.
I can't write Buffy for shit and she is my hero times ten.
I really, really loved everything you did with her in "All Ways". Her voice was perfect. So I don't believe you, ha.
But Buffy, I'm not sure I get her, either. Which is actually why I fell in love with her. My heroines of choice always *used* to be thinky girls who sat around dreaming of being in books and stuff.
I'm confused too.
no subject
A/S is REALLY hard to get right, and not fall into the dynamic of They Are So Opposite They Must Be In Love, because really? They're not so opposite. They have way more in common, from well before they both got souled and fell in love with a Slayer, than most people ever write about. And that's the dynamic I personally love about them.
I think, for me, I love Angel best, but I think Spike is a (again for lack of a better word) Nicer Guy. I just don't happen to have a thing for nicer guys.
And then let's throw Connor in the mix, shall we? There's a character that makes me throw my hands up and want to either write all day and night until I am dead from exhaustion, or never write again, because WHERE DO YOU EVEN START.
Thank you for your reassurances about Buffy voice, too. But honestly? I could write a character I have seen only once for twelve seconds if they were interacting with Angel.
Oh! And I meant to write to you earlier and tell you that alas, I was not clever enough to have Buffy be Zeus, but damn that was lovely meta you came up with for my fic. I was going for Angel and Spike being the Old Gods, you know, the ones who were cruel warriors, and who humanity gave up on. But who Buffy can never get away from, because in the end, that's where she lives too. Your version is so much deeper. :)
no subject
Me too. Which is why I have secret yen to write baddirtywrong Riley fics.
They're not so opposite. They have way more in common, from well before they both got souled and fell in love with a Slayer, than most people ever write about. And that's the dynamic I personally love about them.
That's the dynamic that I love about them, but also kind of depresses me about them. I love me my S/A, but there's no perfect happiness there. There's comfort, but the comfort is only, imo, in always being at each other's throats.
And then let's throw Connor in the mix, shall we? There's a character that makes me throw my hands up and want to either write all day and night until I am dead from exhaustion, or never write again, because WHERE DO YOU EVEN START.
There are four half-finished Connor fics sitting on my hard drive, and another three I've written down ideas for, and I don't know what to do with myself on them. I just--can't--I don't know.
What's funny, is one of the stories is from a conversation I was having with
I was going for Angel and Spike being the Old Gods, you know, the ones who were cruel warriors, and who humanity gave up on.
Yeah, I totally got that. But the way Buffy throws them both for a loop, I thought she worked as Zeus. And I was thinking of her at the end of "Chosen," alone, smiling, which I don't care if everyone hates it, I love that episode, and I love Buffy at the end of it, making her own life without them. But anyway, what I love about your stories is they make me think, and see things, and make these connections, and you're not spoon-fooding them to me but sparking my brain so that they happen, and that, that's electric.
I'm so damn rambley today.
no subject
Man, I'd be happy to assist with that Connor fic. I bet Fod might too. She's my goto girl for All things Connor, for obvious reasons. Not the least of which is that she's a cold stone bitch beta, man. *shiver* I love that.
You're right, too, about Buffy being Zeus- in many ways, she did make both Angel and Spike. And she could UNmake them too, which I find fascinating. I don't think, anymore, they could unmake her.
A/S could never be perfect happiness, but they are perfect for one another. There's a balance there that no one else achieves for either one of them, even- hell, especially- Buffy. Also, there's a lot less bullshit. They really can't lie to one another. I dislike shmoopy A/S though, for the most part, so you're also right about them needing to be at eachother's throats. If for no other reason than to maintain my selfish interest.
A/S/Connor is my other OT3. Lynne does it justice. I just wish for more baddirtywrong porn.
no subject
The problem is, I like schmoopy. Actually, I like The Thought Of Future Schmoop, more than I like schmoop itself. But A/S can never be schmoopy. Or else it's being written wrong. 500 years from now, they'll still be arguing about the damn astronauts.
"Angels and Insects" is one of my favorite fics. But the problem with that OT3, for me, is I don't believe Angel/Connor. I *love* to see it well done, I think it's hotter and sadder and heartbreakyer than just about anything. Because nothing else is that wrong. But I could never write it, because I just can't finagle it in to happening. Except for the one in which Connor gets vamped. Which is just another level of wrong.
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I don't believe in A/C either, even in Lynne's fic, which I adore, love, worship, sleep with under my pillow, and beta'd. I mean, I buy it in her fic, while I read her fic. But after, I realize Angel wouldn't go there with his soul. Angelus OTOH, would fuck the living hell out of the kid.
I *do*, however, believe that Angel has thought about it. Possibly with his own hand under the covers. Because he is not the Nice Guy, and because he is a sick sick fuck, and because he has a very loud demon in his head, not all of which is even named Angelus.
Vamped!Connor would kill Angel. Probably literally. But definitely break his heart. Where would the fucking come in??
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What you say, that's how I felt reading A&I too.
And Angel so thinks about it. A lot. But I guess my favorite thing about the character is the way he's thinking stuff like that inside and drinking coffee with Connor and saying dorky things about, I don't know, hockey on the outside.
Oh, that's where the fucking came in. It was because vamp!Connor knew Angel secretly wanted it, and that that was the deepest, darkest, part of himself Angel hates most of all, and vamp!Connor would exploit it just to fuck with him. Because killing Angel, that would be too easy. Then again, there's fairly often fucking in my head when there shouldn't be.
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Ew. I just squicked myself.
Why is it that Vamp!Connor/Angel squicks me when Real!Connor/Angel doesn't??? Christ, I need *years* of therapy.
OTOH, Vylit wrote a fic she never finished wherein Connor lost his mind after everyone he loved died in NFA except for Angel and Spike and so Angel and Spike take him in but Spike doesn't know who he is and they end up fucking and then Angel ends up- yea, you get the rest. It's Feral!Connor and a sexed up, may as well be soulless Spike, and a very very guilty and grovelly but yet sick as fuck Angel. I may have saved it to my harddrive and I may occasionally take it out and uhm. Just count the words. yes.
Vicarious wasn't shmoop. It was a tender-ish moment, but it was not shmoop. Shmoop is pet names that don't include "poof", and Angel and Spike buying curtains or kittens or something. They can be loving, that's believable. Just not, I dunno, barf-worthy loving.
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Is that fic posted anywhere? Even unfinished? Because oh em gee.
I should have said, re: Vicarious the moment of real tenderness I've really ever believed. I guess I *don't* quite feel that they can be loving. Or, they can be, very much so, but god forbid the other *see*. It just, makes me sad.
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Oh, great. NOW you tell me. ;)
I don't really buy it, either. Tell no one.
And can I just preen at the nice things you two are saying about me in this thread? It's practically curing my cold!
*preens*
*coughs*
*blows nose in a most unattractive fashion*
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Dude, if there was ever a fic which made suspension of disbelief possible, it was yours. I bought it while reading it. It was afterward I went, hunh. Maybe no.
But this does not prevent me from wanting you to write that entire night in small and infinite detail for me. I might think about that. A bit. Sometimes. While suspending disbelief. And other things.
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But anyway fangirling after you is fun. *hands you a tissue*
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Now, if only I could get it to look like something even mildly resembling a fic...
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There is no bad here as far as I can tell.
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Well, except for the bad in baddirtywrong. ;o)
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For some folks, you feel a lot more comfortable being critical with people that you love... perhaps the reason your Angel feels less likable to you is that you are comfortable enough in your esteem for the character -- that you don't really have any bones about showing how dark/nasty/mean he can be -- because you know you'll still like them.
I've seen plenty of writers who - it feels to me like they pull punches - because they know a part of them wouldn't be able to still love the character if carried out as far as that character could go. How else can we explain uninronic fanfic in which soulless Spike rescuing saving little girls from the Nazi death camps...
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Which is weird to me. I love Angel so much precisely because his capacity for darkness is so great.
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And I also totally *get* your writing Angel versus writing Spike thing. Maybe it's a case of you always hurt the ones you love. Maybe subconsciously you want readers to think you're not treating Angel differently because you love him so much- so you are harder on him than you are on Spike. But I think you write the best Angel in ficdom...and blahblah...it's all so friggin' subjective...but I think Spike is just easier to write than Angel. Hands down.
And again- I have no point. Sorry tkp!