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Rant On Characterization!
When I first started reading fanfic, around 6 years ago, I read a lot of character bashing. It always kind of boggled me. It seemed obvious that the writer couldn't possibly believe that that was how such and so a character really was in canon, but rather that the writer was pushing an agenda: mongering hate for a character they didn't like, or what was more distasteful to me, for a character that was competition for their 'ship of choice. Now, I say it was confusing for me. It was also frustrating for me, because I would prefer to see the characters as they were actually portrayed in canon.
So when, actually about 5 years later, I found lj, where everyone talks about fic and fic writing and is much more intelligent on average, I was really pleased to find that many people actually dislike bashing. Many people not only dislike the negative motivations on the part of the writer, but actually view bashing as bad writing, because it doesn't hold to canon, because it is about the writer's preferences, because it's an easy way out for writing a character you don't like, instead of taking the time to understand them. In fact, around the parts of fandom in which I play, this is pretty much taken for granted. Bashing is in bad taste, a squick, a big no-no. And man, is it nice to be around people who feel that way.
Okay, but most of us still dislike certain characters. Instead of bashing, the number one solution is not to write said characters. But say the character you hate is Spike, and the characters you absolutely love happen to be Buffy and Angel, and you want to do a fic in which Buffy comes to LA mid-AtS S5 and gradually picks up a relationship again with Angel. If you want to write that scenario, pretty much, imo, you're going to be writing some Spike, or at least writing characters talking about Spike. Saying, "pretend Spike didn't come back to life" is, in some ways, just plain lazy (bad) writing. Having Spike just not appear or not come up at all is bad writing, because it doesn't take in to consideration what's going on in canon (unless there is a good excuse, in which case describing the excuse will involve writing about Spike). Mentioning Spike, or having him appear briefly, without him being a significant factor in Buffy's life, Buffy's feeling, Buffy's relationship with Angel, Angel's life, Angel's feelings, and Angel's feelings for Buffy, is, imo, a form of bashing. Buffy comes to L.A. and sees him alive for the first time since Sunnydale, and the only thing important going on is whatever's up with her and Angel? That diminishes what Spike and Buffy had, that diminishes Spike, and that diminishes everything Buffy's been through in the last few years.
Okay, so, if you're set on doing your B/A fic during these times and these particular circumstances, if you're going to write a good fanfic, a well-written fic without bashing, what a writer should do is make the attempt. Make the attempt to write Spike, even though you don't like him. Make the attempt to be fair to him. Make the attempt to understand him. Make the attempt to respect B/S. Make the attempt to sympahtize with B/S. Try to write these characters in a way that's true to who they really are, in a way that takes into considerations the feeling they have for each other, and show how they're moving on from each other, and why--or how they're not moving on, how they will always have a something, but why Buffy's decided to be with Angel now, or whatever. Make the attempt.
Except, sometimes, I just hate that.
Bit of a hypocrite. I've written characters I don't like, characters with whom I don't sympathize, and/or characters whom I don't feel I understand as well as I ought. When I write those characters, I try to like them, or try to sympathize, or try to understand. I've had mixed success--sometimes I feel like I really did a character justice, sometimes not.
It's hit and miss all over. I've read Angel in fics by people who claim Angel is a character they tend to feel apathy towards, and I've liked their portrayal of Angel. But what's really bad, what really makes me feel pukey, is when a writer tries, and doesn't quite make it. A writer who feels apathetic toward Xander, or doesn't understand Xander, or hates Xander, but tries to be fair to him. A writer who think B/A is lame, but understands it's very much a part of both Buffy and Angel, so tries to take that into account in their B/S fic. Tries, and doesn't quite come up to snuff. It's more unpleasant to me than having a character just written out, or having the writer pretend that the character doesn't exist at all. To me, it's even more unpleasant than bashing.
When a character gets bashed, it's like I can tune it out. If Buffy is a bitch who's breaking up Spike and Xander's happiness because she's an attention mongering whore who hates gay people, I can pretend that she's an OC who just happens to be named Buffy. When a character doesn't appear, or doesn't show up when she should, or got sent on a mysterious mission to Honolulu, or got written out by a line in the author's note, I can say, yay! AU! What I can't do, is pretend that a character who walks like Buffy, talks like Buffy, acts like Buffy, feels like Buffy, isn't Buffy. But there were those little things, those few little tweaks to things she might really say, or things she might really do, that make me suspect you secretly hate her, make me suspect you're only writing her to be good and fair, make me suspect that what you'd really like to say is, "S/X forevah die Buffy die," or, what's somehow even worse, "S/X forevah. Buffy who?"--it's those little bits, and my big suspicions, those're what I really hate.
Okay, okay, I get that you the writer want Angel to get together with Spike, and you as an intelligent and good writer have realized that Buffy might have a thought or two about this, and you want to do justice to her, and to canon. But sometimes, instead of saying, "hey, nice try with that!" I sometimes just want to say: "BACK OFF MY BUFFY. Kill her off, make her into a raging evil screaming bitch, I don't care, but don't write her voice so well, don't make her seem like Buffy, if you're not going to portray her in exactly the light I feel like she should be portrayed."
Which is obviously, soulless and bitchy of me. After all, I'm not necessarily talking about bad writing. I'm not necessarily talking about bad characterization--not quite. (Though, okay, let's, just for a minute. In the same vein of this whole rant, what about when Angel doesn't get bashed, even though he's in the way of your Buffy/Spike, but instead he turns...matchmaker. Starts saying stuff like, "Buffy is so in love with Spike. They deserve to be happy together." Bad writing, but it's "politer" than bashing--but it makes me sicker than bashing. This is the sick that doesn't give you the little shivers like when Spike is confused about his actual paternity in the middle of sex, no siree. This is sick with a capital S which rhymes with mess which is VOMIT.)
Anyway, but really, I'm not talking about lazy writers who didn't make the effort. I'm talking about writers whose views of a character don't line up with mine. A difference of opinion, that's all. And, you know, this difference of opinion does happen just as much with people who love the characters I love, and the 'ships I love: I love B/A, but I don't like how lots of B/Aers like B/A. I love Wesley, but I haven't liked how some Wesley fans write Wesley.
But somehow, that's not the same. When a B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, there are probably two factors at work. 1) The writing is centered on B/A. The writing is, imo, sub-par. Thus, I can choose to to ignore the writing (the fic) completely. and 2) I don't get the feeling in reading this B/A, sub-par writing, that the author dislikes B/A. I get the feeling that the author doesn't view the 'ship the way I do, and can't write it the way I would want it to be written, but at least they respect what I like.
When a non-B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, but is trying to portray them in a good way rather than ignoring them or bashing them, two different things are usually at work. 1) The writing is usually not B/A centric--it's B/S or S/A or A/C or whatever. The writing can be great, especially since this is obviously a writer who tries, who takes the time, who understands a good fic is about characters we know from the show--that's why this writer, even though she hates B/A, is trying to respect B/A. Thus, if I want to read good B/S, or A/S, or A/C, or what have you...well, I could still ignore this fic because of the botched B/A, but I would be missing out. and 2. I get the feeling in reading this attempt at B/A, this attempt to write B/A well, that the author secretly hates B/A, or doesn't respect B/A, or is dismissive/apathetic/disinterested in B/A, and is just writing the B/A so their B/S, S/A, or C/A will make sense--like it's a chore. In the kind of fic I'm talking about, the kind where the author is trying but it's not working for me, I can smell it. I can smell the author saying, "Ugh, I have to do the B/A part now" and it makes me sick. Way sicker than if the author had just left B/A out of it, or if the author had bashed one or the other into an unrecognizable, rapist, crying, screaming banshee.
The point is, if you don't like Faith (whom I also love), but are trying to do justice to Faith in your Angel/Wesley, because this is good writing and you are a good writer . . . and if you fail in that, I will resent you more than I do bad writing and a bad writer who bashed Faith or left her out, just because the writer didn't like Faith. I will resent you more because I feel like you're a good writer and should've done justice to my woobie. The thing that feels the worst, in the pit of my stomach, is the idea that you are a good writer, and a good thinker, and took what you really saw in canon--and this is what you came up with. This isn't some evil bitch you made up and gave the name Faith--you thought about it and you tried and you see the other characters so well and so insightfully, and this is what you saw when you looked at my Faith. In short, I hate on you because you because I feel you're good, but you didn't do what I wanted. I won't hate on the bad ones who didn't do what I wanted. Them I ignore and go on about happily. No. I shall hate you because you are good, and because we disagree, and because I am small, and weak. You are good and you make me puke.
As you can see, I'm not exactly comfortable in this feeling (though I totally am, because look, see, I can be honest about it, and it's not really killing me to make this post). I think it is perverse of me. And yet, that's the way I feel. Show me really really hot A/S smut in which Buffy is ignored or bashed, and I will show you someone who doesn't really give a shit. Someone who can, in fact, still enjoy the smut. But show me a fantastic, kickass, really awesome A/S fic, trying to do justice to Buffy when the writer hates Buffy, show the Buffy bit in that fic not meeting my standards for Buffy--though the writing is decent and there's true effort involved--and I will show you my vomit.
Why is this?
I'm not saying writers shouldn't try to be fair to the characters they don't like, or shouldn't try to understand the characters they don't understand. I try. And I've seen others try and succeed so beautifully it makes my heart hurt--never would've guessed they were uncomfortable writing that character, or that that character isn't their favorite, or that they didn't really want to write that character but did because it was necessary to make the piece work. Never smelled that smell and never got sick at all. But when you try and fail, I feel like throwing tomatoes at you. Maybe it's just in the end, that people who don't try, those who bash, write out, and ignore, don't deserve the fruit. I don't know, but they just don't smell so bad to me. Their writing is worse, their approach, I feel, is worse--but they don't make my eye start twitching.
Thoughts? Opinions? Tomatoes?
ETA: And because I was too ranty to express myself well:![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
redbrickrose states my thoughts exactly here.
So when, actually about 5 years later, I found lj, where everyone talks about fic and fic writing and is much more intelligent on average, I was really pleased to find that many people actually dislike bashing. Many people not only dislike the negative motivations on the part of the writer, but actually view bashing as bad writing, because it doesn't hold to canon, because it is about the writer's preferences, because it's an easy way out for writing a character you don't like, instead of taking the time to understand them. In fact, around the parts of fandom in which I play, this is pretty much taken for granted. Bashing is in bad taste, a squick, a big no-no. And man, is it nice to be around people who feel that way.
Okay, but most of us still dislike certain characters. Instead of bashing, the number one solution is not to write said characters. But say the character you hate is Spike, and the characters you absolutely love happen to be Buffy and Angel, and you want to do a fic in which Buffy comes to LA mid-AtS S5 and gradually picks up a relationship again with Angel. If you want to write that scenario, pretty much, imo, you're going to be writing some Spike, or at least writing characters talking about Spike. Saying, "pretend Spike didn't come back to life" is, in some ways, just plain lazy (bad) writing. Having Spike just not appear or not come up at all is bad writing, because it doesn't take in to consideration what's going on in canon (unless there is a good excuse, in which case describing the excuse will involve writing about Spike). Mentioning Spike, or having him appear briefly, without him being a significant factor in Buffy's life, Buffy's feeling, Buffy's relationship with Angel, Angel's life, Angel's feelings, and Angel's feelings for Buffy, is, imo, a form of bashing. Buffy comes to L.A. and sees him alive for the first time since Sunnydale, and the only thing important going on is whatever's up with her and Angel? That diminishes what Spike and Buffy had, that diminishes Spike, and that diminishes everything Buffy's been through in the last few years.
Okay, so, if you're set on doing your B/A fic during these times and these particular circumstances, if you're going to write a good fanfic, a well-written fic without bashing, what a writer should do is make the attempt. Make the attempt to write Spike, even though you don't like him. Make the attempt to be fair to him. Make the attempt to understand him. Make the attempt to respect B/S. Make the attempt to sympahtize with B/S. Try to write these characters in a way that's true to who they really are, in a way that takes into considerations the feeling they have for each other, and show how they're moving on from each other, and why--or how they're not moving on, how they will always have a something, but why Buffy's decided to be with Angel now, or whatever. Make the attempt.
Except, sometimes, I just hate that.
Bit of a hypocrite. I've written characters I don't like, characters with whom I don't sympathize, and/or characters whom I don't feel I understand as well as I ought. When I write those characters, I try to like them, or try to sympathize, or try to understand. I've had mixed success--sometimes I feel like I really did a character justice, sometimes not.
It's hit and miss all over. I've read Angel in fics by people who claim Angel is a character they tend to feel apathy towards, and I've liked their portrayal of Angel. But what's really bad, what really makes me feel pukey, is when a writer tries, and doesn't quite make it. A writer who feels apathetic toward Xander, or doesn't understand Xander, or hates Xander, but tries to be fair to him. A writer who think B/A is lame, but understands it's very much a part of both Buffy and Angel, so tries to take that into account in their B/S fic. Tries, and doesn't quite come up to snuff. It's more unpleasant to me than having a character just written out, or having the writer pretend that the character doesn't exist at all. To me, it's even more unpleasant than bashing.
When a character gets bashed, it's like I can tune it out. If Buffy is a bitch who's breaking up Spike and Xander's happiness because she's an attention mongering whore who hates gay people, I can pretend that she's an OC who just happens to be named Buffy. When a character doesn't appear, or doesn't show up when she should, or got sent on a mysterious mission to Honolulu, or got written out by a line in the author's note, I can say, yay! AU! What I can't do, is pretend that a character who walks like Buffy, talks like Buffy, acts like Buffy, feels like Buffy, isn't Buffy. But there were those little things, those few little tweaks to things she might really say, or things she might really do, that make me suspect you secretly hate her, make me suspect you're only writing her to be good and fair, make me suspect that what you'd really like to say is, "S/X forevah die Buffy die," or, what's somehow even worse, "S/X forevah. Buffy who?"--it's those little bits, and my big suspicions, those're what I really hate.
Okay, okay, I get that you the writer want Angel to get together with Spike, and you as an intelligent and good writer have realized that Buffy might have a thought or two about this, and you want to do justice to her, and to canon. But sometimes, instead of saying, "hey, nice try with that!" I sometimes just want to say: "BACK OFF MY BUFFY. Kill her off, make her into a raging evil screaming bitch, I don't care, but don't write her voice so well, don't make her seem like Buffy, if you're not going to portray her in exactly the light I feel like she should be portrayed."
Which is obviously, soulless and bitchy of me. After all, I'm not necessarily talking about bad writing. I'm not necessarily talking about bad characterization--not quite. (Though, okay, let's, just for a minute. In the same vein of this whole rant, what about when Angel doesn't get bashed, even though he's in the way of your Buffy/Spike, but instead he turns...matchmaker. Starts saying stuff like, "Buffy is so in love with Spike. They deserve to be happy together." Bad writing, but it's "politer" than bashing--but it makes me sicker than bashing. This is the sick that doesn't give you the little shivers like when Spike is confused about his actual paternity in the middle of sex, no siree. This is sick with a capital S which rhymes with mess which is VOMIT.)
Anyway, but really, I'm not talking about lazy writers who didn't make the effort. I'm talking about writers whose views of a character don't line up with mine. A difference of opinion, that's all. And, you know, this difference of opinion does happen just as much with people who love the characters I love, and the 'ships I love: I love B/A, but I don't like how lots of B/Aers like B/A. I love Wesley, but I haven't liked how some Wesley fans write Wesley.
But somehow, that's not the same. When a B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, there are probably two factors at work. 1) The writing is centered on B/A. The writing is, imo, sub-par. Thus, I can choose to to ignore the writing (the fic) completely. and 2) I don't get the feeling in reading this B/A, sub-par writing, that the author dislikes B/A. I get the feeling that the author doesn't view the 'ship the way I do, and can't write it the way I would want it to be written, but at least they respect what I like.
When a non-B/Aer writes B/A in a way that I don't like, but is trying to portray them in a good way rather than ignoring them or bashing them, two different things are usually at work. 1) The writing is usually not B/A centric--it's B/S or S/A or A/C or whatever. The writing can be great, especially since this is obviously a writer who tries, who takes the time, who understands a good fic is about characters we know from the show--that's why this writer, even though she hates B/A, is trying to respect B/A. Thus, if I want to read good B/S, or A/S, or A/C, or what have you...well, I could still ignore this fic because of the botched B/A, but I would be missing out. and 2. I get the feeling in reading this attempt at B/A, this attempt to write B/A well, that the author secretly hates B/A, or doesn't respect B/A, or is dismissive/apathetic/disinterested in B/A, and is just writing the B/A so their B/S, S/A, or C/A will make sense--like it's a chore. In the kind of fic I'm talking about, the kind where the author is trying but it's not working for me, I can smell it. I can smell the author saying, "Ugh, I have to do the B/A part now" and it makes me sick. Way sicker than if the author had just left B/A out of it, or if the author had bashed one or the other into an unrecognizable, rapist, crying, screaming banshee.
The point is, if you don't like Faith (whom I also love), but are trying to do justice to Faith in your Angel/Wesley, because this is good writing and you are a good writer . . . and if you fail in that, I will resent you more than I do bad writing and a bad writer who bashed Faith or left her out, just because the writer didn't like Faith. I will resent you more because I feel like you're a good writer and should've done justice to my woobie. The thing that feels the worst, in the pit of my stomach, is the idea that you are a good writer, and a good thinker, and took what you really saw in canon--and this is what you came up with. This isn't some evil bitch you made up and gave the name Faith--you thought about it and you tried and you see the other characters so well and so insightfully, and this is what you saw when you looked at my Faith. In short, I hate on you because you because I feel you're good, but you didn't do what I wanted. I won't hate on the bad ones who didn't do what I wanted. Them I ignore and go on about happily. No. I shall hate you because you are good, and because we disagree, and because I am small, and weak. You are good and you make me puke.
As you can see, I'm not exactly comfortable in this feeling (though I totally am, because look, see, I can be honest about it, and it's not really killing me to make this post). I think it is perverse of me. And yet, that's the way I feel. Show me really really hot A/S smut in which Buffy is ignored or bashed, and I will show you someone who doesn't really give a shit. Someone who can, in fact, still enjoy the smut. But show me a fantastic, kickass, really awesome A/S fic, trying to do justice to Buffy when the writer hates Buffy, show the Buffy bit in that fic not meeting my standards for Buffy--though the writing is decent and there's true effort involved--and I will show you my vomit.
Why is this?
I'm not saying writers shouldn't try to be fair to the characters they don't like, or shouldn't try to understand the characters they don't understand. I try. And I've seen others try and succeed so beautifully it makes my heart hurt--never would've guessed they were uncomfortable writing that character, or that that character isn't their favorite, or that they didn't really want to write that character but did because it was necessary to make the piece work. Never smelled that smell and never got sick at all. But when you try and fail, I feel like throwing tomatoes at you. Maybe it's just in the end, that people who don't try, those who bash, write out, and ignore, don't deserve the fruit. I don't know, but they just don't smell so bad to me. Their writing is worse, their approach, I feel, is worse--but they don't make my eye start twitching.
Thoughts? Opinions? Tomatoes?
ETA: And because I was too ranty to express myself well:
redbrickrose states my thoughts exactly here.
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That said, with one exception (Estepheia's Cues and Balls), every single Spander fic I've ever read has Spike with some guy named Xander who is kinda like the Xander on BtVS, but way cooler and a LOT less judgmental. (to repeat my mantra: the xander in spander ain't xander.)
That said, I have read about a dozen Spander fics, but only because the writer is terrifically talented (Anna S, Shadowscast, Ladycat, Witling, 2 ladies of quality), and I like the Xanders they've created.
And ITA on the wholesale elimination of certain characters from fics as character bashing by elimination. And you know what? those fics usually read like crap, so I don't finish them.....
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Now this is something else again I'd like to post about, or meta about, or at least rant about inarticulately but with passion. There's canon based fic, and then there's AU, and then there's crack, right--and this, this Xander shaped person, is he crack? Because he isn't in character?
Have you read Sue's Sunday Morning Coming Down? It's S/X, but Spike and Xander are IN CHARACTER. But...not. Because they would never sleep together. The fic confuses me because I don't know where to place it on the continuum of in character, not in character, crack and au and canon.
And ITA on the wholesale elimination of certain characters from fics as character bashing by elimination. And you know what? those fics usually read like crap, so I don't finish them.....
I've read some that were okay, but that's when I want a fix on a character or a pairing. Sometimes when I need to read B/A, just about anything will do...
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I now have a goal for my Spander fic. To make *you* personally buy the sex. All righty, then. Best get to work.
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I believed Sue, inside Sue's fic. Then I stepped back and said, yeah, I don't think they'd do this.
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I wanna finish it for the Dark!Xander ficathon, on Oct. 8. Ha! I can't write a sentence that fast, let alone a whole fic,l but it's good to have goals!
I have the whole damn thing outlined already, have done since immediately post-Chosen. Never wrote it, because (to go back to your original rant topic, see I AM paying attention!) I don't "get" Xander and I am afraid to fuck him up.
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But thank you for the well wishes. I'm certainly gonna give this sucker a good try, in any case!
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Good luck!
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And in Buffyverse, that's always easy. Could always be a spell or a curse or a weird mojo thing making characters act nutso.
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Not just Xander, also Spike. Marty Stu!Xander and Saint!Spike against homophopic Buffy! *snicker*
I usually have a lot of problem with how Xander and Spike are written in fanfic. But not only in Spander, in other pairings also. Spike actually annoy me more than Xander, because Xander is a differnet person, Spike is Spike but my God such a saint.
Writers of Xander are four types:
1- Writers who relate to him so much that they write about themselves inside of Xander rather than writing about Xander.
2- Writers who don't get him because of his many layers that make him a complex character, so hard to write (since most of Xander's character wasn't discussed that much on the show from every angle like Willow and Spike.)
3- Writers who are biased about him. If they love him so much, then he's a saint. If they hate him so much, then he's evil.
4- Writers who don't dig deep enough and only write about the surface.
Liz Marcs writes the best Xander, she also has a fic centered around Xander's father Tony Harris, amazing read that was, I loved the fact that you don't love or hate the man. She's a great writer and I'm sure once she writes her own novels, they'll be a hit.
As for Saint!Spike, as Liz Marcs said:
"Spike's "flaws" don't go away nor are they ignored. Instead, those flaws are turned into "positives" for the character and are excused or handwaved. They are fluffed off as being unimportant because:
1) he's a vampire and everyone knows that vampires are better than humans. 2) he's not really bad he's just built that way.
3) all the other Scoobies are, of course, worse than Spike because Spike "can't help it" without the soul while they "can help it" with their souls (leaving aside that this group tends to never give the Scoobies any slack for human failings...ever).
4) of course all demons and vampires are coded as "minorities" and therefore (meta-lly speaking) the Scoobies must be racists for killing demons and vampires, which, if left unchecked, would eat them and their neighbors."
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3) all the other Scoobies are, of course, worse than Spike because Spike "can't help it" without the soul while they "can help it" with their souls (leaving aside that this group tends to never give the Scoobies any slack for human failings...ever).
4) of course all demons and vampires are coded as "minorities" and therefore (meta-lly speaking) the Scoobies must be racists for killing demons and vampires, which, if left unchecked, would eat them and their neighbors."
I . . . yeah. I don't get those.
But it happens with all characters. There's bitch!Buffy and woobie!Faith and rapist!Riley. My personal pet peeve is mean puppy Angelus, who:
1. would never hurt Buffy
2. is only mean to everyone else 'cause the Scoobies are all evil and are mean to his Buffy
3. only interested in Buffy,
by fangirls who:
1. think Buffy didn't love Riley
2. think Spike is a loser
3. think Angel didn't give a shit for Cordelia
4. consider season 1-3 of BtVS canon and everything else AU
5. never even freakin' WATCHED AtS
oh, and here's a good one: 6. think Angelus loves and respects Buffy more than Angel ever could.
Um.
/another rant for another time.
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