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Meta: bunch of random half-thoughts
S. Hotmail doesn't seem to be working for me. I can't get to any of my email. (eta: working now. It was down for hours!)
A. My brain hurts from trying to write too many concepts and not enough plot.
D. I'm at work, I have no laptop, and I can't think.
!. I always have a billion fandom, meta, fic thoughts that I just don't post about because I want to Think Them Out and present them in an orderly fashion, so we can have real, big discussions about them. See S.-D. for why I'm not about to do that.
Instead, I brain-dump all at once.
Closed vs. Open Canon, Writing AUs
I don't get this whole deal about closed canon being more difficult to write in than open canon. In open canon, you start from the last ep/book/movie/comic/etc, and extrapolate different things that could happen. And the reason you can't pick BtVS S3 ep 14, or HP:GoF, or whatever, and extrapolate from there is...why? Are AUs really such an anathema? Or are people so stuck in a rut that once (all-knowing-mystical) Canon (amen) does something, there's nothing different you can think to happen at earlier points?
Dark!fics: definition, and the endless 'vs. fluff' debate.
A long, long time ago, there was that meme about My Dark!fic. The meme confused me, as so many people seemed to be saying, "Well, it's only dark if it's well written, or if I respect it," which to me, had an underlying connotation of, "DARK = GOOD." Um. No? Dark is admittedly something that's emerged as a "fanfic genre", and as such it's something we need to define for ourselves. But does it need to be so subjective?
Unpopular Fannish Opinion #1: Fandom, I owe you nothing.
There's this cyclical debate between the people who see fandom as a community to which you should pay dues, mow your lawns, vs people who see fandom as fun/a hobby to which they owe nothing. Except the best work you can do.
Um. Excuse me? I'm always nodding along with the latter group, until suddenly, these "except"s crop up. I don't owe fandom good fic. I don't owe fandom fic at all! I don't owe fandom proper English or complete sentences! I don't owe fandom schlock. Except, ok, maybe one thing: I owe fandom the understanding that I get out what I put in.
Wait, no, not even that. I have the right to be a dickhead and whine about no one loving me, even though I don't do anything that invites said love. The reason I don't is because I feel I owe that to myself. I owe it to my self-respect not to be an ass-hat, not to anyone else. And those that don't believe that, and are asshats--I'm glad they have the right to be so. I'm glad they're here because I like to laugh at them. And watch more patient people than me tell them to suck it.
Liking characters as people vs. liking them as characters.
I was having this conversation with![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
redbrickrose:
me: It's interesting to me, the difference between liking a character as a person and liking a character as a character, because I think there's something in between too, that I can't quite put my finger on. [...]
Hannah: There is, and I'm confused too because I've been sitting here trying to word my response and I . . . can't. A lot of it comes down to which characters resonate, I guess and that's so subjective. To continue to use Cally as an example - if I look at it objectively, I find her really sympathetic and all of her reactions make perfect sense in light of the situation she's in. I think I could formulate an argument defending her. Subjectively, while I don't dislike her as a person or as a character, I'm just not all that invested because she doesn't resonate with me. Sometimes character who are HORRIBLE PEOPLE do resonate with me and I can LOVE them even if I don't like them as people. Or it's like Baltar and I don't love him at all, and he doesn't really resonate, but I like to watch him anyway because I find him compelling. So there are other responses, yes, but they are hard to articulate.
Fanfic as the fulfillment which canon lacks.
The way many get into fanfic is best described in this way: two characters on the screen. You're shouting, "Kiss already!" They don't. You go write a fic where they do.
Fanfic is so often wish-fulfillment. Fanfic is often also bad. I wonder, is the lack of kissing, lack of explicit sex, lack of characters whom we'd like to see get together actually together--is that what really makes a good work of fiction? So many people complain about Whedon never letting people have happy relationships, but I think that's true of many artists and creators. They think we don't want to actually watch B/A be fluffy and happy forever. Well, a part of us does, but the angst was what kept us watching. And is this part of the dark vs. fluff debate? O_o
List of fictional unkinks.
E. I feel ambivalent about this list, because I wouldn't want people to look at it and think, "I've written that! TKP must hate my fic!" Uh, no. I think anything can be enjoyable is well written.
R. I don't mean squicks. These are just things that from their abundance in fiction, I assume some people like them. They don't make me turn and run; they just don't do anything for me.
M. I'm going to try to get 100 and then maybe it'll get it's own post.
1. The word "stabbing" in sex scenes.
2. Giving of gifts between loved ones.
3. Celebration, or notation, of anniversaries of anything.
4. Lust at first sight. When all characters can think about is how hot other characters get them, or when it's not all they can think about, but it's a significant distraction.
5. Constant masturbation over object of said lust.
6. Weather symbolism, direct attention called to weather symbolism.
7. Fabric metaphors and similes.
8. The cry, "Aieeeeeee!"
9. Bloodplay.
10. The word, "Master".
What's so intimidating about the blank page/screen?
I have this writing quirk I think others must not share: starting to write on the blank page tends to be easier for me than continuing to write after I've already written 50,000 words of text. That is, I like to start things. I'm always starting things. And when I get a certain amount done, and then get stuck . . . I call up a new doc so it feels like I'm starting something completely new, and start fresh on that doc, and then only later C&P what I've written into the story I've already started. Am I the only one who does this?
And what's so intimidating about the blank page? Is it that you don't know where to start? I do know that I spent four hours today staring at a list of concepts, but didn't know what plot to give to the concepts, so ended up making this post. But...what is it that you're missing? Plot? Theme? Whatseraphcelene and I were calling "shape"? And what is shape, anyway? Is it a format? List of events? Style? Rhythm? Premise? Concept? What is my motivation? Why do I have so many thoughts?"
Interconnectivity of Jossverse.
When I want to write fic I don't want to tell a story so much as say something about the characters. Even when my idea starts out as plot based, I write not because I want to see what happens, so much as I want want what happens to reveal who the characters are inside, and to affect that core.
Lots of people say they're burned out on Jossverse; they feel like there are few new stories to tell any more. The more time I spend with it, the more...opposite of that I feel. I feel almost stymied because I'm so overwhelmed by all the possibilities here, by the way some of these characters parallel each other and intersect in so many ways.
Those four hours today, I spent contemplating how Xander is really Angel, and Fred is Cordelia is Faith is Drusilla is Dana is even Jenny Calendar, how Xander/Illyria works in my head, how Buffy is Darla is even Anya, how Willow is Jasmine, how Warren is equivalent to and the antithesis of Jasmine, how Xander was pulling Willow out of her own grave while Connor was puttin Angel into the ocean, a dream Xander has of Anya wearing clothes they never role played in, Xander saying, "I've been everywhere; I don't want to see the world any more," and Anya saying, "I could show you. The things you've always seen, the things most dear." And Xander, "Show me. Show me your world." And Anya, "Close your eyes." And Xander's eyes snap open, and finds himself tangled with Drusilla, who is really Cordelia, tangled with Angel, the sheets strewn about them in such a way that they will never, ever escape the web.
A. My brain hurts from trying to write too many concepts and not enough plot.
D. I'm at work, I have no laptop, and I can't think.
!. I always have a billion fandom, meta, fic thoughts that I just don't post about because I want to Think Them Out and present them in an orderly fashion, so we can have real, big discussions about them. See S.-D. for why I'm not about to do that.
Instead, I brain-dump all at once.
Closed vs. Open Canon, Writing AUs
I don't get this whole deal about closed canon being more difficult to write in than open canon. In open canon, you start from the last ep/book/movie/comic/etc, and extrapolate different things that could happen. And the reason you can't pick BtVS S3 ep 14, or HP:GoF, or whatever, and extrapolate from there is...why? Are AUs really such an anathema? Or are people so stuck in a rut that once (all-knowing-mystical) Canon (amen) does something, there's nothing different you can think to happen at earlier points?
Dark!fics: definition, and the endless 'vs. fluff' debate.
A long, long time ago, there was that meme about My Dark!fic. The meme confused me, as so many people seemed to be saying, "Well, it's only dark if it's well written, or if I respect it," which to me, had an underlying connotation of, "DARK = GOOD." Um. No? Dark is admittedly something that's emerged as a "fanfic genre", and as such it's something we need to define for ourselves. But does it need to be so subjective?
Unpopular Fannish Opinion #1: Fandom, I owe you nothing.
There's this cyclical debate between the people who see fandom as a community to which you should pay dues, mow your lawns, vs people who see fandom as fun/a hobby to which they owe nothing. Except the best work you can do.
Um. Excuse me? I'm always nodding along with the latter group, until suddenly, these "except"s crop up. I don't owe fandom good fic. I don't owe fandom fic at all! I don't owe fandom proper English or complete sentences! I don't owe fandom schlock. Except, ok, maybe one thing: I owe fandom the understanding that I get out what I put in.
Wait, no, not even that. I have the right to be a dickhead and whine about no one loving me, even though I don't do anything that invites said love. The reason I don't is because I feel I owe that to myself. I owe it to my self-respect not to be an ass-hat, not to anyone else. And those that don't believe that, and are asshats--I'm glad they have the right to be so. I'm glad they're here because I like to laugh at them. And watch more patient people than me tell them to suck it.
Liking characters as people vs. liking them as characters.
I was having this conversation with
redbrickrose:me: It's interesting to me, the difference between liking a character as a person and liking a character as a character, because I think there's something in between too, that I can't quite put my finger on. [...]
Hannah: There is, and I'm confused too because I've been sitting here trying to word my response and I . . . can't. A lot of it comes down to which characters resonate, I guess and that's so subjective. To continue to use Cally as an example - if I look at it objectively, I find her really sympathetic and all of her reactions make perfect sense in light of the situation she's in. I think I could formulate an argument defending her. Subjectively, while I don't dislike her as a person or as a character, I'm just not all that invested because she doesn't resonate with me. Sometimes character who are HORRIBLE PEOPLE do resonate with me and I can LOVE them even if I don't like them as people. Or it's like Baltar and I don't love him at all, and he doesn't really resonate, but I like to watch him anyway because I find him compelling. So there are other responses, yes, but they are hard to articulate.
Fanfic as the fulfillment which canon lacks.
The way many get into fanfic is best described in this way: two characters on the screen. You're shouting, "Kiss already!" They don't. You go write a fic where they do.
Fanfic is so often wish-fulfillment. Fanfic is often also bad. I wonder, is the lack of kissing, lack of explicit sex, lack of characters whom we'd like to see get together actually together--is that what really makes a good work of fiction? So many people complain about Whedon never letting people have happy relationships, but I think that's true of many artists and creators. They think we don't want to actually watch B/A be fluffy and happy forever. Well, a part of us does, but the angst was what kept us watching. And is this part of the dark vs. fluff debate? O_o
List of fictional unkinks.
E. I feel ambivalent about this list, because I wouldn't want people to look at it and think, "I've written that! TKP must hate my fic!" Uh, no. I think anything can be enjoyable is well written.
R. I don't mean squicks. These are just things that from their abundance in fiction, I assume some people like them. They don't make me turn and run; they just don't do anything for me.
M. I'm going to try to get 100 and then maybe it'll get it's own post.
1. The word "stabbing" in sex scenes.
2. Giving of gifts between loved ones.
3. Celebration, or notation, of anniversaries of anything.
4. Lust at first sight. When all characters can think about is how hot other characters get them, or when it's not all they can think about, but it's a significant distraction.
5. Constant masturbation over object of said lust.
6. Weather symbolism, direct attention called to weather symbolism.
7. Fabric metaphors and similes.
8. The cry, "Aieeeeeee!"
9. Bloodplay.
10. The word, "Master".
What's so intimidating about the blank page/screen?
I have this writing quirk I think others must not share: starting to write on the blank page tends to be easier for me than continuing to write after I've already written 50,000 words of text. That is, I like to start things. I'm always starting things. And when I get a certain amount done, and then get stuck . . . I call up a new doc so it feels like I'm starting something completely new, and start fresh on that doc, and then only later C&P what I've written into the story I've already started. Am I the only one who does this?
And what's so intimidating about the blank page? Is it that you don't know where to start? I do know that I spent four hours today staring at a list of concepts, but didn't know what plot to give to the concepts, so ended up making this post. But...what is it that you're missing? Plot? Theme? What
seraphcelene and I were calling "shape"? And what is shape, anyway? Is it a format? List of events? Style? Rhythm? Premise? Concept? What is my motivation? Why do I have so many thoughts?"Interconnectivity of Jossverse.
When I want to write fic I don't want to tell a story so much as say something about the characters. Even when my idea starts out as plot based, I write not because I want to see what happens, so much as I want want what happens to reveal who the characters are inside, and to affect that core.
Lots of people say they're burned out on Jossverse; they feel like there are few new stories to tell any more. The more time I spend with it, the more...opposite of that I feel. I feel almost stymied because I'm so overwhelmed by all the possibilities here, by the way some of these characters parallel each other and intersect in so many ways.
Those four hours today, I spent contemplating how Xander is really Angel, and Fred is Cordelia is Faith is Drusilla is Dana is even Jenny Calendar, how Xander/Illyria works in my head, how Buffy is Darla is even Anya, how Willow is Jasmine, how Warren is equivalent to and the antithesis of Jasmine, how Xander was pulling Willow out of her own grave while Connor was puttin Angel into the ocean, a dream Xander has of Anya wearing clothes they never role played in, Xander saying, "I've been everywhere; I don't want to see the world any more," and Anya saying, "I could show you. The things you've always seen, the things most dear." And Xander, "Show me. Show me your world." And Anya, "Close your eyes." And Xander's eyes snap open, and finds himself tangled with Drusilla, who is really Cordelia, tangled with Angel, the sheets strewn about them in such a way that they will never, ever escape the web.
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Except that I've been hoarding my catty and subjective opinions about a lot of porn writing and someday I will hide out with you and confess. I am actually quite annoyed by how picky I am about what sex writing is actually hot to me. SIGH.
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I've seen the brightness in one little spark.
I've seen what I chose and I've seen what I need,
And that is enough, to want more would be greed.
I've seen what I was and I know what I'll be
I've seen it all - there is no more to see!
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What? I was pretty sure fandom owed me cookies.
Liking characters as people vs. liking them as characters.
This is an easy one for me. I mean, gosh do I love the character of Jim Profit. But he'd kill me and sell my loved ones into slavery if it would get G&G stock to go up a quarter-point. I wouldn't like that guy in person. Heck, my last boss I did not like at all, but he'd make for a great character.
Fanfic as the fulfillment which canon lacks.
Nobody likes a tease. But teases bring people back again and again. Until they get sick of you.
I do know that I spent four hours today staring at a list of concepts, but didn't know what plot to give to the concepts, so ended up making this post.
I'm like that, except way less prolific. My fandom conversations tend to go this way. Lots and lots of ideas and little shape. Which is part of why I haven't written fic in so long. All I have are hooks.
When I want to write fic I don't want to tell a story so much as say something about the characters.
Ditto. For me, that's what I try to do in story - I'm probably even more explicit about it than most. My fic, what there was of it, was character essay in disguise as narrative.
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I think darkfic is always going to be subjective to some extent, because one person's dark is another person's, uh, not dark. Some people would consider any fic in which a character dies dark, while other have more nebulous criteria like "an atmosphere of despair or hopelessness." I've had people call the exact same story both too dark and too fluffy.
There are characters I like to watch and read about, and there are characters I find compelling and intriguing enough to want to write about or analyze. Neither of those are necessarily characters whom I would like if they were real people and living next door. Characters whom I'd like to live next door to or have a beer with are likely to be the nice stable ones, and therefore less interesting to write about.
I don't think there's anything wrong with wish fulfillment per se. I would be totally lying if I said there was no component of wish fulfillment in the fact that I like to read and write about beautiful, athletic and/or superpowered people having cool adventures or finding true love. But a story which is all wish fulfillment is like spraying whipped cream into your mouth. It's fine as a treat, but as a steady diet it's not all that healthy or fulfilling. On the other hand, I don't think that writing about two people who have a working long-term relationship translates to fluff, either. No matter what characters you're writing about, working relationships don't just magically appear and sustain themselves with no effort.
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No!
In fact, at one point, the Crack Addled Drawer Fic of DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM existed in three documents.
When I got to a point when I was happy with the Pivotal Alley Sex of Dubious Consent and Angst-o-Rama (read: when the PASoDCaAoR satisfied my lame-ass kinks), I pasted it into the main doc. And then at some point, when I remembered that the whole start of the DADFoD(OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM) was in a separate file of Abandoned Fic, I c&p'd it, too.
Then there's Sunrise, which exists at the moment in multiple documents and a tracking spreadsheet.
I think, however, that that's all just me Avoiding Actual Work on the thing.
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Your last paragraph made me supremely happy and I wish I could comment intelligently on it. Alas.
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non linear thoughts
Blank pages are alluring to me. It beckons me to ignore the thirty WiPs on my Word doc with something shiny and new.
I do view all my fic as wish-fulfillment but most of them don't end happily, or end at all. I like to write 'snapshots' of what-ifs without diverging to wildly from the source material. I have this block where if any fic ends with Cordy and Angel snuggling in front of a fire, then there wouldn't be anything left for me to say. And also, it's too easy to solve their problems with a paragraph or ten, and presumptuous, when the shows themselves couldn't. If that makes sense.
Re: non linear thoughts
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This is very true for me as well (I'm horrible with plot). I think it goes with what you were saying about wish-fulfillment earlier on. I don't write fic for wish-fulfillment so much as I read fic for wishfullfillment, but I do write fic mainly to process canon; it's not about fixing it, but it is about analyzing it and processing it and making it make more sense to me. Sometimes I have to explain things to myself. I wish I could write just to play with the world. I wish I was good with plot and could just write stories, but it doesn't seem to work that way for me so much.
I love your last paragraph. I love that you see it that way. Oh, my show.
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late to the party as usual
Anyway, back to things that *matter* ...
Closed vs. Open Canon, Writing Aus
Having been weaned on Farscape fic, and specifically Maayan’s fic, the AU is probably, for me, the best part about fandom. When writers can see their way past canon, whether it’s closed or open, and into Uncharted Territories (pun intended).
Dark!fics: definition, and the endless 'vs. fluff' debate.
That’s so curious. I always think of dark in terms of theme. Hopelessness, despair, suicide, etc. And it isn’t always good. I think someone mentioned well written fluff is harder to write and I think it’s true. I also think that my tolerance for poorly written dark!fic is higher than my tolerance for poorly written fluff because fluff can become so trite and clichéd so very easily. But dark is dark and fluff … fluff is happily ever after but that doesn’t make it any less worthy. In fact, if you can get me to *believe* in that happily ever after you are amazing and I am pea green with jealously because I can’t seem to be able to get the characters there under my own steam. There’s always more dirt to rub on their faces and a deeper well to drop them down. Truth be told, I like to see how they react under pressure, how they fracture. I like to see if I can break them but keep them *in character*.
That need ties into fanfic as wish fulfillment. For me it kinda isn’t. Reading fanfic is definitely wish fulfillment but writing it is … different. There’s a dark corner of my brain that likes to torture them and make them beyond real. I can’t just let them be happy. If it were wish fulfillment the only thing I can think that I would write is lots o’ porn because there’s *never* enough sex in my shows. But again, maybe not, cause I always think that as dark as my shows were, are, it could be worse. Hence things like Let Me Start to Fade Away. So, perhaps by extension, the characters that I love the most, want to write about the most, are the ones whose, Adam Haslett wrote, pain seems the most real to me. Willow’s grief, Buffy’s despair, Dawn’s alienation
What's so intimidating about the blank page/screen?
I have this writing quirk I think others must not share: starting to write on the blank page tends to be easier for me than continuing to write after I've already written 50,000 words of text. That is, I like to start things. I'm always starting things.>/i>
Hallelujah!! Starting things is THE BEST. Finishing it, closing the deal, that’s the kicker and the pain in my ass!! I always feel like I cop out on the end of my fic. Very, very seldom does it come together for me in an ending that feels organic enough. But the beginning … the beginning is a dream and I think it goes back to that “shape”. It is, for me, rhythm and I can hear it in the beginning and it’s usually very strong but then it peters out or disappears or the tone changes because suddenly I’m heading in a different direction and I have to fine tune what I have to mesh with what’s changing within the fic. The Angel NFA thing has been so hard to work on because I find myself LOATHE to cut anything and I am going to be a sucker for you when it’s ready for the next beta round (if you’re still up for it). You’re going to get to take a machete to it, I’m sure and I’m going to let you cause I’ve Lost My Perspective completely.
And as far as the end of your post is concerned … Hallelujah and Amen.
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It's just the actual writing part that's difficult for me. I'm not very disciplined, and I'm easily distracted. It's rare that I complete a story that I start. I'm not usually intimidated by a blank page- I have an idea that I am eager to write and see how it goes. But it's after the idea stops seeming so amazing that I lose my passion to write. It's a really bad habit that I hope that I can break someday. I think it might help if I start by writing fanfiction and then work my way from there. We'll see how it goes... wish me luck! =)
And good luck to you, too! =)