And for fandom's next act...

[lettered]

heatherly's post supports responsible and/or thoughtful writing about concepts such as rape, incest, and pedophilia.
xanphibian's post posits that fandom behaves responsibly in regards to that kind of fic through labeling and warnings, and that the fic behind such warnings is important to us as fans and women.

xanphibian covered most of my opinions on this, but I have two additional points. The first point I want to make as someone who has never suffered any form of abuse, sexual or otherwise, who was lucky enough to never ever be touched in a wrong or uncomfortable way, who had a great childhood. And still has gangbang rape fantasies.

xanphibian made the point that fiction about rape can help survivors deal with what they had suffered. And that these stories can sometimes be extremely realistic. So far (in this particular debate) I have seen those who would have us "write responsibly" acknowledge this point. I have not seen them say every fic that has to do with rape has to deal with rape realistically. I have seen them acknowledge that this therapeutic fic is not irresponsible.

But then they go and make a distinction between this "therapeutic" fic and fic written for kink, just to get off.

I don't get the difference.

The distinction they make is that the first type of fic may be unrealistic, but it is written for a serious and important reason (therapy), by people who are serious about the topic and understand the terrible reality of it. The second type of fic is written because it is hot. These people are not serious about the topics and don't care about them, and have no understanding of these issues IRL.

I wrote an incest fic once. My primary motivation to write it was because it was hot. The boys were pretty; I wanted to smoosh them; I have a kink for fictional incest. I may've had some concepts in there about the characters and I may've been making a pretty literary painting, but I wrote it to get off. And that? Was therapeutic for me. Me getting off is a Serious And Important reason to write this stuff. Because it shames me that I have these kinks--but not when I get to explore them in a fictional setting that can't hurt anyone. Not when other women read them and get off as well, not when other women can freely admit to having and freely explore their own fantasies. Because I don't know what I'd be doing right now if I didn't have this place I felt was safe to explore my fantasies. Possibly I would be seeking out situations that are unsafe because I wouldn't have this outlet of exploration. Knowing me, more probably, I would not. I would keep it to myself, and repress, and feel sick and ugly and bad for feeling the ways I do, and because I do know me I know it would spiral in on itself and make things like my anxiety and depression so much worse than they already are.

I know that my anxiety and depression are nothing next to the trauma others have suffered. I also know that me getting off from fiction, while extremely important, is a selfish concern compared to survivors using fiction to work through their pain, fear, distrust, everything.

But because I write this stuff to get off, because I'm writing straight to the kink, because the boys are pretty or Wincest is wrong but too hot to resist, because that is the only reason I am writing this--does that automatically mean I can't also be someone serious about the issue, who understands the terrible reality of it? Does it automatically mean I can have no emotional investment in these issues? Does it automatically mean I must not be considering all the implications and ramifications of what I write and how it relates to the general public, from everyone to children to survivors to middle aged women to the vast majority who could care less? If I write my kinks to get off, does that automatically make me ignorant, cavalier, irresponsible, and completely divorced from anything serious relating to this concept in real life?

I think most of us understand that rape is terrible and horrible and very very real. Even the average Joe understands that, even if he has never experienced it for himself. If we write Wincest for the sole reason that it is hot, that doesn't mean we don't understand that it would be wrong irl, that if they were real and really brothers it would be unhealthy and emotionally damaging. What it means is we find it hot, completely separate from RL consequences.


POINT TWO. If people weren't cutting, weren't warning, if people were posting in kids' forums or at the local YMCA, it would be obvious to me that the people calling for responsibility here meant we need cuts and warnings and labels and stricter posting rules. As it is, I don't know what they're asking for. If it is showing real life consequences within our fiction, that is addressed above and quite well in xanphibian's post. If it is just that we be serious about said issues, care about them, and have an understanding of them in reality--what the hell has that got to do with my fanfic (beyond cutting, warning, labeling, posting in appropriate places)?

The distinction being made--between authors who are aware of real life consequences and those who are not, between those who write for serious reasons and those who write for kink--the distinction implies that it matters who or what the author is, that it matters why they write what they do. That makes no sense to me. It's not a reflection on the work if Lewis Carroll crushed on Alice Liddel or Byron had a suspicious relationship with his sister. More importantly, the work is not a reflection of the author. Nabokov was not a pedophile and Thomas Harris is probably not a cannibal. A story can tell everything there is to know about a real man, and also nothing at all. You cannot learn anything true about anyone's real life from a work that is purely fiction. I am not saying fiction has nothing to do with reality, but that no valid judgments can be drawn from it.

I have not seen anyone (in this particular debate) say you should be a rape victim to write fic about rape, or that you need to confess you are a rape victim on a fic about that subject matter. What I have seen, though, is people saying you need to understand the reality of rape, that it's not like what you're writing, that you need to care about it, and consider its victims and perpetrators and all the people in between. I think you need to understand the reality of rape, etc, in order to be a constructive member of human society, but I don't think you need it to write fic. As soon as anyone says, you need to be this to write that, there's an implication your personal reality is the only thing on which the fic can be built. Which in turn implies that what you write is who you are in reality.

It is not. We do not get off on rape, incest, or pedophilia. We are just as sickened and disgusted by the reality of these crimes as the next person, and more so than some.

We get off on fantasies of and fiction about rape, incest, and pedophilia, and it's entirely different. We make it entirely different, and that is why our own bodies and fantasies and minds don't constantly sicken and disgust us.

I think it's important that everyone learn about, educate themselves, trouble themselves to understand the horrors of rape, incest, pedophilia, abuse, so much more. I think it's important that we care about them, care about them intensely.

I think it's important that we ask each other to be responsible. Beg each other. Those of you who are in the trenches, inform us of the trauma and suffering of victims, leave us links to charities and shelters and places we can volunteer. Ask us to make our real lives better. I admit, sometimes I change the channel when it's about starving children, because I don't have any money to give and too often I am lazy and selfish of my time. And even though it's my right to say no, my right to choose--ask, because sometimes I choose yes, as so many do. Ask us to be responsible. Please.

Just sure as fuck don't bring my fiction into it, because I don't see how that relates. At all.

Comments

[m-phoenix.livejournal.com]

Thank you for saying all that. You know what, I really respect you for it, for your willingness to say things which are hard to express and the fact that you've expressed those things so well. I think you're right that it's vitally important to have an outlet for fantasies, and that most of us are quite capable of telling that things which are hot as hell in our heads and on the page are certainly not a good thing in RL. So I suppose I just wanted to tell you that as someone who was abused (yep, the bad stuff happened) I still fully agree with you. There are always going to be writers who write those subjects in a way that I object to very intensely, but I always found the write what you know maxim a little odd. If we only wrote what we know we sure as hell wouldn't be writing about Slayers, vampires, and ex god kings would we?

I know that my anxiety and depression are nothing next to the trauma others have suffered. I also know that me getting off from fiction, while extremely important, is a selfish concern compared to survivors using fiction to work through their pain, fear, distrust, everything.

::hugs you:: Anxiety and depression are never a small thing -- as someone who has both I know this. It's not about who's pain is worse, because no matter how bad you feel, no matter how bad the things that have happened in your life there is always going to be someone worse off than you. I still waste a lot of time feeling like there's no reason for me to be so affected by the things that have happened in my life because in comparrison to x,y or z it wasn't that bad, therefore I'm a great big fake. It's taken my friends to point out that that's bullshit, it's bad enough, it's about what it does to you, not about some kind of measuring stick. Sorry about the rant, I'm not sure I explained that well but I think it's important.

It is not. We do not get off on rape, incest, or pedophilia. We are just as sickened and disgusted by the reality of these crimes as the next person, and more so than some.

We get off on fantasies of and fiction about rape, incest, and pedophilia, and it's entirely different. We make it entirely different, and that is why our own bodies and fantasies and minds don't constantly sicken and disgust us.

Yes, exactly.

[m-phoenix.livejournal.com]

::buries head in hands:: Oh dear. I've just reread this comment as I was reading the rest of the thread, and I want to apologise for using the deadly 'as someone who was,' start to a sentance not once but twice! It might be weird but I always have a slight problem with people who start sentances that way (usually because it's a sign they're about to start preaching at me) and now I'm doing it. I blame sleep deprivation. Going away now.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I think it's unfair not to be able to bring your own experience to the table.

I understand that there are some people who would bring up something like that to "prove" they know better. But that has nothing to do with saying that you have experienced it, but rather how you wield that admission. If you were using it to shut down discussion against those who haven't experienced it, I would consider it pointless, but as it is you are adding to the pool of information here we have to draw on.

It is difficult enough to talk about an experience like that. It is so disappointing that not only fear and shame and those kinds of emotions keep people from talking about it, but also anxiety that they will be accused of lording something that happened to them that was painful for them over everyone else. That's not what speaking out is about.

[m-phoenix.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I think all the debates and arguements that are raging through Fandom right now are just making me extra sensitive about how I phrase things, y'know? I'm definitely not someone who would ever want to use my experience to prove I know better in that kind of sense, 'cause a lot of the time I probably don't anyway. And while on that subject, I find the suggestion going around that we should put a kind of personal experience statement in our author's notes to prove that our rape/incest/abuse fic is serious incredibly strange and insensitive. I mean most writers are, well, writers and aren't going to want to flaunt their painful personal experiences in their headers just to give the story some kind of credibility. I think the story always needs to stand on its own merits. Plus that kind of thing would make it almost impossible for people to crit it. I'm glad everyone seems to be coming out strongly against.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

that you've expressed those things so well.

Thank you. This took quite a while to write, actually, because I didn't know how to articulate how I felt.

I always found the write what you know maxim a little odd

The spirit of it makes sense to me, but too many people take it literally. BtVS works as a show for us because even though it's vampires n' stuff, the emotions behind it are things we have felt. I have read very realistic stories that don't have the same kind of emotional resonance.

it's about what it does to you, not about some kind of measuring stick.

I do get that feeling that my anxiety is baseless and unimportant and I shouldn't worry because it's so minimal compared to other people's pain, BUT I see those emotions as a part of the anxiety. Logically, I understand that it is in fact very important. It affects who I am, and just because other people's pain is worse doesn't make mine less significant to me. I do realize I'm lucky compared to a lot of people, but yes, I try not to discount my own problems because of it.

[m-phoenix.livejournal.com]

The spirit of it makes sense to me, but too many people take it literally. BtVS works as a show for us because even though it's vampires n' stuff, the emotions behind it are things we have felt. I have read very realistic stories that don't have the same kind of emotional resonance.

Agreed. Didn't Joss Whedon say something along the lines of 'everything we're writing about is real, you'll just have to allow me vampires'? Often the metaphor works way more powerfully than straight up reality, maybe because the metaphor can get closer to a person's inner reality. People still opperate on a very symbolic level and having a creative person push those buttons for me makes me very happy.

It affects who I am, and just because other people's pain is worse doesn't make mine less significant to me.

Absolutely!