lettered | And for fandom's next act...

And for fandom's next act...

heatherly's post supports responsible and/or thoughtful writing about concepts such as rape, incest, and pedophilia.

xanphibian's post posits that fandom behaves responsibly in regards to that kind of fic through labeling and warnings, and that the fic behind such warnings is important to us as fans and women.

xanphibian covered most of my opinions on this, but I have two additional points. The first point I want to make as someone who has never suffered any form of abuse, sexual or otherwise, who was lucky enough to never ever be touched in a wrong or uncomfortable way, who had a great childhood. And still has gangbang rape fantasies.

xanphibian made the point that fiction about rape can help survivors deal with what they had suffered. And that these stories can sometimes be extremely realistic. So far (in this particular debate) I have seen those who would have us "write responsibly" acknowledge this point. I have not seen them say every fic that has to do with rape has to deal with rape realistically. I have seen them acknowledge that this therapeutic fic is not irresponsible.

But then they go and make a distinction between this "therapeutic" fic and fic written for kink, just to get off.

I don't get the difference.

The distinction they make is that the first type of fic may be unrealistic, but it is written for a serious and important reason (therapy), by people who are serious about the topic and understand the terrible reality of it. The second type of fic is written because it is hot. These people are not serious about the topics and don't care about them, and have no understanding of these issues IRL.

I wrote an incest fic once. My primary motivation to write it was because it was hot. The boys were pretty; I wanted to smoosh them; I have a kink for fictional incest. I may've had some concepts in there about the characters and I may've been making a pretty literary painting, but I wrote it to get off. And that? Was therapeutic for me. Me getting off is a Serious And Important reason to write this stuff. Because it shames me that I have these kinks--but not when I get to explore them in a fictional setting that can't hurt anyone. Not when other women read them and get off as well, not when other women can freely admit to having and freely explore their own fantasies. Because I don't know what I'd be doing right now if I didn't have this place I felt was safe to explore my fantasies. Possibly I would be seeking out situations that are unsafe because I wouldn't have this outlet of exploration. Knowing me, more probably, I would not. I would keep it to myself, and repress, and feel sick and ugly and bad for feeling the ways I do, and because I do know me I know it would spiral in on itself and make things like my anxiety and depression so much worse than they already are.

I know that my anxiety and depression are nothing next to the trauma others have suffered. I also know that me getting off from fiction, while extremely important, is a selfish concern compared to survivors using fiction to work through their pain, fear, distrust, everything.

But because I write this stuff to get off, because I'm writing straight to the kink, because the boys are pretty or Wincest is wrong but too hot to resist, because that is the only reason I am writing this--does that automatically mean I can't also be someone serious about the issue, who understands the terrible reality of it? Does it automatically mean I can have no emotional investment in these issues? Does it automatically mean I must not be considering all the implications and ramifications of what I write and how it relates to the general public, from everyone to children to survivors to middle aged women to the vast majority who could care less? If I write my kinks to get off, does that automatically make me ignorant, cavalier, irresponsible, and completely divorced from anything serious relating to this concept in real life?

I think most of us understand that rape is terrible and horrible and very very real. Even the average Joe understands that, even if he has never experienced it for himself. If we write Wincest for the sole reason that it is hot, that doesn't mean we don't understand that it would be wrong irl, that if they were real and really brothers it would be unhealthy and emotionally damaging. What it means is we find it hot, completely separate from RL consequences.

POINT TWO. If people weren't cutting, weren't warning, if people were posting in kids' forums or at the local YMCA, it would be obvious to me that the people calling for responsibility here meant we need cuts and warnings and labels and stricter posting rules. As it is, I don't know what they're asking for. If it is showing real life consequences within our fiction, that is addressed above and quite well in

xanphibian's post. If it is just that we be serious about said issues, care about them, and have an understanding of them in reality--what the hell has that got to do with my fanfic (beyond cutting, warning, labeling, posting in appropriate places)?

The distinction being made--between authors who are aware of real life consequences and those who are not, between those who write for serious reasons and those who write for kink--the distinction implies that it matters who or what the author is, that it matters why they write what they do. That makes no sense to me. It's not a reflection on the work if Lewis Carroll crushed on Alice Liddel or Byron had a suspicious relationship with his sister. More importantly, the work is not a reflection of the author. Nabokov was not a pedophile and Thomas Harris is probably not a cannibal. A story can tell everything there is to know about a real man, and also nothing at all. You cannot learn anything true about anyone's real life from a work that is purely fiction. I am not saying fiction has nothing to do with reality, but that no valid judgments can be drawn from it.

I have not seen anyone (in this particular debate) say you should be a rape victim to write fic about rape, or that you need to confess you are a rape victim on a fic about that subject matter. What I have seen, though, is people saying you need to understand the reality of rape, that it's not like what you're writing, that you need to care about it, and consider its victims and perpetrators and all the people in between. I think you need to understand the reality of rape, etc, in order to be a constructive member of human society, but I don't think you need it to write fic. As soon as anyone says, you need to be this to write that, there's an implication your personal reality is the only thing on which the fic can be built. Which in turn implies that what you write is who you are in reality.

It is not. We do not get off on rape, incest, or pedophilia. We are just as sickened and disgusted by the reality of these crimes as the next person, and more so than some.

We get off on fantasies of and fiction about rape, incest, and pedophilia, and it's entirely different. We make it entirely different, and that is why our own bodies and fantasies and minds don't constantly sicken and disgust us.

I think it's important that everyone learn about, educate themselves, trouble themselves to understand the horrors of rape, incest, pedophilia, abuse, so much more. I think it's important that we care about them, care about them intensely.

I think it's important that we ask each other to be responsible. Beg each other. Those of you who are in the trenches, inform us of the trauma and suffering of victims, leave us links to charities and shelters and places we can volunteer. Ask us to make our real lives better. I admit, sometimes I change the channel when it's about starving children, because I don't have any money to give and too often I am lazy and selfish of my time. And even though it's my right to say no, my right to choose--ask, because sometimes I choose yes, as so many do. Ask us to be responsible. Please.

Just sure as fuck don't bring my fiction into it, because I don't see how that relates. At all.

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Thank you for saying all that. You know what, I really respect you for it, for your willingness to say things which are hard to express and the fact that you've expressed those things so well. I think you're right that it's vitally important to have an outlet for fantasies, and that most of us are quite capable of telling that things which are hot as hell in our heads and on the page are certainly not a good thing in RL. So I suppose I just wanted to tell you that as someone who was abused (yep, the bad stuff happened) I still fully agree with you. There are always going to be writers who write those subjects in a way that I object to very intensely, but I always found the write what you know maxim a little odd. If we only wrote what we know we sure as hell wouldn't be writing about Slayers, vampires, and ex god kings would we?

I know that my anxiety and depression are nothing next to the trauma others have suffered. I also know that me getting off from fiction, while extremely important, is a selfish concern compared to survivors using fiction to work through their pain, fear, distrust, everything.

::hugs you:: Anxiety and depression are never a small thing -- as someone who has both I know this. It's not about who's pain is worse, because no matter how bad you feel, no matter how bad the things that have happened in your life there is always going to be someone worse off than you. I still waste a lot of time feeling like there's no reason for me to be so affected by the things that have happened in my life because in comparrison to x,y or z it wasn't that bad, therefore I'm a great big fake. It's taken my friends to point out that that's bullshit, it's bad enough, it's about what it does to you, not about some kind of measuring stick. Sorry about the rant, I'm not sure I explained that well but I think it's important.

It is not. We do not get off on rape, incest, or pedophilia. We are just as sickened and disgusted by the reality of these crimes as the next person, and more so than some.

We get off on fantasies of and fiction about rape, incest, and pedophilia, and it's entirely different. We make it entirely different, and that is why our own bodies and fantasies and minds don't constantly sicken and disgust us.

Yes, exactly.

This is an excellent post, and sadly I do not have the time to go as indepth as I'd like. Just one point:

constructive member of human society, but I don't think you need it to write fic. As soon as anyone says, you need to be this to write that, there's an implication your personal reality is the only thing on which the fic can be built. Which in turn implies that what you write is who you are in reality.
I write about vampires. Vampires aren't real! Vampires are evil, soulless, bloodsucking fiends, but that doesn't stop S2 Spike from being sex on legs. That's the point! Vampires are fantasies that have been around forever, because making life and death and blood and sex and pain all the same thing hits people's kinks.

Me getting off is a Serious And Important reason to write this stuff. Because it shames me that I have these kinks--but not when I get to explore them in a fictional setting that can't hurt anyone. Not when other women read them and get off as well, not when other women can freely admit to having and freely explore their own fantasies.

A world of yes. Honestly, it seems to me like this whole debate is not about responsibility to society or the children or anyone else. It's about shame. Other people in fandom don't share our kinks, and they're ashamed of us. They don't want the outside world pointing at them and saying, "You people in fandom are all a bunch of freaks. You should all be banned!" So they go around telling us to "write responsibly" so that the world at large won't come down on all of us and ban fandom from the face of the earth. It's the online version of, "But what will the neighbors think?!?"

Thanks, but I get enough of that from my mother. If the outside world decided to ban me from the internets for writing Angel/Connor, I'd start writing with pen and paper and share my stories by phone, fax or email with you and Kita and anyone else who signed up to read them. I don't see why I should have to keep my stories locked up in my head just because someone else finds them shameful.

To repeat what I've said elsewhere, with less handwaving: why are the "responsibilities" of fanwriters/those whose words are posted online different from those who write and are printed on dead trees or acted out on stage, television, or movies? There were scenes, some kinky and some tragic, of incest, child abuse, and sexual exploitation in fiction as long as fiction has existed. What is unique to our story-telling that it be subjected to special restrictions beyond those we have evolved already?

Julia, writing Drusilla again and close to some pretty dark stuff in canon

Yes! So much damn YES!

The idea that getting off -- human sexuality -- is insignificant is just so ridiculously ignorant.

Thanks for writing this.

Yes! I think you've said it perfectly, Joy.

e getting off is a Serious And Important reason to write this stuff. Because it shames me that I have these kinks--but not when I get to explore them in a fictional setting that can't hurt anyone. Not when other women read them and get off as well, not when other women can freely admit to having and freely explore their own fantasies. Because I don't know what I'd be doing right now if I didn't have this place I felt was safe to explore my fantasies.

This is sort of what I've been trying to articulate in this debate, but was unable to do so. That's what fandom is about - not porn exactly, but open dialog with each other, a dialog that is subversive on several different levels and is, by its very nature, not mainstream. We lose so much of the point of this community if we start censoring each other.

And please, let me add this: Even if you are writing about something 'JUST' TO GET OFF, and there are no internal debates raging in your head about whether or not it is okay, no consequences of depression or anxiety, you just write about incest because IT MAKES YOU HOT, that? IS ALSO OKAY.

Safe space for women's pornography is reason enough for something to not be censored. Women writing about what turns them on is important business. No one gets to tell us it ain't.

/rant

Other people in fandom don't share our kinks, and they're ashamed of us.

Yes, absolutely! Thank you for pointing this out. I believe you've hit the nail square on the head.

Me getting off is a Serious And Important reason to write this stuff.

Yes, yes, yes and YES. Thank you.

Other people in fandom don't share our kinks, and they're ashamed of us.

I don't think that shame is always it. At least, not in the way you mean. I really try to practice "Don't like it, don't read it." But there are some stories out there that I find just...well, revolting. And it makes me really uncomfortable and somewhat scared that there are people who find those stories hot and fun. The most uncomfortable and scary part is the fear that maybe I find those things so disturbing because on some level, I'm attracted to them. And I don't want to be.

But I feel that this is more my issue than the writers' issue. I know that there are people who've read what I write, and had a similar reaction to that. I've gotten feedback from people who feel that I'm an irresponsible writer for putting too rosy a face on a rather disturbing relationship, and all I can say in reply is that yes, I'm aware that by some measures the relationship is disturbing, and I'm not trying to hide that, and I don't think your reaction is wrong, though obviously it's not exactly the one I'm aiming for.

And yet I usually consider myself a fairly responsible writer in terms of realistic consequences for the characters' actions. Even if everyone swore to write 'responsibly' tomorrow, no one can agree on what responsible writing is.

I appreciate that you always try to show the consequences of your characters' actions. That's just good storytelling. But sometimes... I don't think you should have to be "responsible" every time you write your ship. Yes, Spike/Buffy can be violent and destructive and abusive. They can also be hot and sexy and fun, and I don't think it's incumbent upon you as a writer to show the consequences of their actions in every single fic. Personally, I don't see a problem with writing them just to get off. The thing I took away from Heatherly's post is that it's wrong to get off while reading about certain subjects, and so we shouldn't write about them except in a Very Serious Manner.

And yes, I can understand that some people find it disturbing, to know that some of us enjoy incest fic. I found it disturbing, too, when I first read Flowers in the Attic and found that I enjoyed it. But you know what? I have no desire whatsoever to *act* on those urges. The idea of committing incest in real life makes me feel ill, and I would imagine that 99.9999% of people who read it feel the same way. I've long since come to terms with my own kinks, and I am not a threat to society. But I think people like Heatherly and others feel that I am a threat to fandom.

Oh, it's not incest fic that bugs me. Incest fic just leaves me going 'meh,' at least, in contexts where it's obviously being treated as sexual fantasy. It's certain types of slavefic and hardcore D/s that make me squirm. (Oddly, it doesn't bug me nearly as much for original characters as it does in fanfic.)

And no, I don't think it's necessary to include a public service announcement with each fic - there's absolutely a place for pure fluffy porn, and ghod knows I've written my share. But I'm just saying, not everyone's got the same idea of what constitutes realistic consequences, and even if a story is trying to convey a Serious Message, not every reader is going to come away with the same Serious Message. Which is something I don't think the proponents of Responsible Writing are taking into account.

On the gripping hand, I can't help notice that a lot of the people who are speaking out in favor of irresponsible (so to speak) writing are the same people who were all up in arms over SexyMermaid's stuff, which is pretty much the epitome of id-driven pr0n. (Granted there were a lot of other issues involved there.) So, it's complicated.

My issues with Sexymermaid were about her RL comments, not her fic. Obviously there are people who enjoy her stuff, and they're more than welcome to it. Personally, I find her writing painful and her characters one-dimensional, but that doesn't mean I think she should stop writing. It just means that I don't have a problem with anyone calling it bad!fic.

True - as I said, there were a lot of other issues involved there. (And her stuff falls squarely into DO NOT WANT territory for me, so I tend to bend over backwards to try not to let my distaste for the subject matter affect my opinion, which may be a doomed enterprise.)

I had someone once tell me that their Snape/Harry story didn't contain a situation because Harry liked it. (for the record he was 11 in the story. (I'm assuming they were fairly young them selves)

That was a bit scary. Sure it was fiction but to say the situation in the fic wasn't pedophelia cause the kid liked it?

For my money responsible writing means you have some idea about what you are writing about. If you choose not to use that in story that's fine, you are still writing from an informed position.

I think by and large the process of having this debate is healthy and is part of that.

Yeah, it's that kind of response that gives me pause. I mean, when I find something problematic hot, I can usually see how and why other people might not agree with me.

But I think there's a huge distinction between someone who's a bad writer, and a good writer who's not dealing with the implications of what they write. And further distinctions between someone who's aware of the implications but choosing not to deal with them, or to deal with them in a metaphorical or fantastic way, and someone who's refusing to admit that there are any implications.

For me this is where responsible writing comes in. People need to be aware of those things whether or not they are being used in a story. They need to discussed publicly - as is happening now - and people need to call other people on it where it's obviously not happening.

(I'm going to start using *mindful* writer as it doesn't carry the implication of meeting other's expectations)

It's not about not writing things that may be controversial, not writing rape fic in an erotic way or making sure every fic has a message. But being aware of the issues and consequences involved and taking responsibility for that.

It's easy enough to say "well of course no one really thinks that way about rape" etc, but I think that the fall out from the rape in Buffy; where girls were actually changing their real life views about what was and wasn't rape purely on the basis of "Spike is hot" is proof enough that not everyone thinks about it critically or possibly - at all.

People write for all kinds of reasons, I've seen some that have very clearly been an attempt to write something 'popular' to become better known, impress a BNF or similar. I'd question whether those were mindful authors since they didn't seem to be thinking about what they were writing - but what they wanted to get out of it.

Largely it seems that the writers participating in the debate are all intelligent, thoughtful people that are writing, in my definition, mindfully. Hopefully writers that fall on the other side will read the debates and consider these issues, clarify their thinking by participating - or if they don't know much about them go and find out.

Hell, yeah! I'm really to angry and too offended by heatherly's post to be much more articulate than that. Thanks for saying what needed to be said.

Well, this comment came after a couple of locked rants, so you know. I've had time to calm down. *G*

::buries head in hands:: Oh dear. I've just reread this comment as I was reading the rest of the thread, and I want to apologise for using the deadly 'as someone who was,' start to a sentance not once but twice! It might be weird but I always have a slight problem with people who start sentances that way (usually because it's a sign they're about to start preaching at me) and now I'm doing it. I blame sleep deprivation. Going away now.

It's easy enough to say "well of course no one really thinks that way about rape" etc, but I think that the fall out from the rape in Buffy; where girls were actually changing their real life views about what was and wasn't rape purely on the basis of "Spike is hot" is proof enough that not everyone thinks about it critically or possibly - at all.

No, not everyone reads or watches critically. But is it the responsibility of a writer of fiction to educate their readers in critical thinking? Or is that the responsibility of parents and teachers? Ought all writers be required to restrict their content because some readers lack critical thinking skills? That's the real question.

Here via...

daily_snitch, I think.

Just wanted to say thank you. This is exactly the way I feel about the issue and I don't have it in me right now to be quite so eloquent about it. So thank you very much for such a well-written and well thought out post. :-)

that you've expressed those things so well.

Thank you. This took quite a while to write, actually, because I didn't know how to articulate how I felt.

I always found the write what you know maxim a little odd

The spirit of it makes sense to me, but too many people take it literally. BtVS works as a show for us because even though it's vampires n' stuff, the emotions behind it are things we have felt. I have read very realistic stories that don't have the same kind of emotional resonance.

it's about what it does to you, not about some kind of measuring stick.

I do get that feeling that my anxiety is baseless and unimportant and I shouldn't worry because it's so minimal compared to other people's pain, BUT I see those emotions as a part of the anxiety. Logically, I understand that it is in fact very important. It affects who I am, and just because other people's pain is worse doesn't make mine less significant to me. I do realize I'm lucky compared to a lot of people, but yes, I try not to discount my own problems because of it.

I think it's unfair not to be able to bring your own experience to the table.

I understand that there are some people who would bring up something like that to "prove" they know better. But that has nothing to do with saying that you have experienced it, but rather how you wield that admission. If you were using it to shut down discussion against those who haven't experienced it, I would consider it pointless, but as it is you are adding to the pool of information here we have to draw on.

It is difficult enough to talk about an experience like that. It is so disappointing that not only fear and shame and those kinds of emotions keep people from talking about it, but also anxiety that they will be accused of lording something that happened to them that was painful for them over everyone else. That's not what speaking out is about.

making life and death and blood and sex and pain all the same thing hits people's kinks.

Yes. Vampires are walking examples of...things that are not walking examples.

If I write about someone getting turned on by being bitten by a vampire, do I need to explain separately not to go opening your veins for a kink? I'm not saying some people wouldn't, or don't; they do and it's an unhealthy thing. But if fiction had to protect against ignorant readership, much of the classic lit we know would have to be burned.

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