And for fandom's next act...

[lettered]

heatherly's post supports responsible and/or thoughtful writing about concepts such as rape, incest, and pedophilia.
xanphibian's post posits that fandom behaves responsibly in regards to that kind of fic through labeling and warnings, and that the fic behind such warnings is important to us as fans and women.

xanphibian covered most of my opinions on this, but I have two additional points. The first point I want to make as someone who has never suffered any form of abuse, sexual or otherwise, who was lucky enough to never ever be touched in a wrong or uncomfortable way, who had a great childhood. And still has gangbang rape fantasies.

xanphibian made the point that fiction about rape can help survivors deal with what they had suffered. And that these stories can sometimes be extremely realistic. So far (in this particular debate) I have seen those who would have us "write responsibly" acknowledge this point. I have not seen them say every fic that has to do with rape has to deal with rape realistically. I have seen them acknowledge that this therapeutic fic is not irresponsible.

But then they go and make a distinction between this "therapeutic" fic and fic written for kink, just to get off.

I don't get the difference.

The distinction they make is that the first type of fic may be unrealistic, but it is written for a serious and important reason (therapy), by people who are serious about the topic and understand the terrible reality of it. The second type of fic is written because it is hot. These people are not serious about the topics and don't care about them, and have no understanding of these issues IRL.

I wrote an incest fic once. My primary motivation to write it was because it was hot. The boys were pretty; I wanted to smoosh them; I have a kink for fictional incest. I may've had some concepts in there about the characters and I may've been making a pretty literary painting, but I wrote it to get off. And that? Was therapeutic for me. Me getting off is a Serious And Important reason to write this stuff. Because it shames me that I have these kinks--but not when I get to explore them in a fictional setting that can't hurt anyone. Not when other women read them and get off as well, not when other women can freely admit to having and freely explore their own fantasies. Because I don't know what I'd be doing right now if I didn't have this place I felt was safe to explore my fantasies. Possibly I would be seeking out situations that are unsafe because I wouldn't have this outlet of exploration. Knowing me, more probably, I would not. I would keep it to myself, and repress, and feel sick and ugly and bad for feeling the ways I do, and because I do know me I know it would spiral in on itself and make things like my anxiety and depression so much worse than they already are.

I know that my anxiety and depression are nothing next to the trauma others have suffered. I also know that me getting off from fiction, while extremely important, is a selfish concern compared to survivors using fiction to work through their pain, fear, distrust, everything.

But because I write this stuff to get off, because I'm writing straight to the kink, because the boys are pretty or Wincest is wrong but too hot to resist, because that is the only reason I am writing this--does that automatically mean I can't also be someone serious about the issue, who understands the terrible reality of it? Does it automatically mean I can have no emotional investment in these issues? Does it automatically mean I must not be considering all the implications and ramifications of what I write and how it relates to the general public, from everyone to children to survivors to middle aged women to the vast majority who could care less? If I write my kinks to get off, does that automatically make me ignorant, cavalier, irresponsible, and completely divorced from anything serious relating to this concept in real life?

I think most of us understand that rape is terrible and horrible and very very real. Even the average Joe understands that, even if he has never experienced it for himself. If we write Wincest for the sole reason that it is hot, that doesn't mean we don't understand that it would be wrong irl, that if they were real and really brothers it would be unhealthy and emotionally damaging. What it means is we find it hot, completely separate from RL consequences.


POINT TWO. If people weren't cutting, weren't warning, if people were posting in kids' forums or at the local YMCA, it would be obvious to me that the people calling for responsibility here meant we need cuts and warnings and labels and stricter posting rules. As it is, I don't know what they're asking for. If it is showing real life consequences within our fiction, that is addressed above and quite well in xanphibian's post. If it is just that we be serious about said issues, care about them, and have an understanding of them in reality--what the hell has that got to do with my fanfic (beyond cutting, warning, labeling, posting in appropriate places)?

The distinction being made--between authors who are aware of real life consequences and those who are not, between those who write for serious reasons and those who write for kink--the distinction implies that it matters who or what the author is, that it matters why they write what they do. That makes no sense to me. It's not a reflection on the work if Lewis Carroll crushed on Alice Liddel or Byron had a suspicious relationship with his sister. More importantly, the work is not a reflection of the author. Nabokov was not a pedophile and Thomas Harris is probably not a cannibal. A story can tell everything there is to know about a real man, and also nothing at all. You cannot learn anything true about anyone's real life from a work that is purely fiction. I am not saying fiction has nothing to do with reality, but that no valid judgments can be drawn from it.

I have not seen anyone (in this particular debate) say you should be a rape victim to write fic about rape, or that you need to confess you are a rape victim on a fic about that subject matter. What I have seen, though, is people saying you need to understand the reality of rape, that it's not like what you're writing, that you need to care about it, and consider its victims and perpetrators and all the people in between. I think you need to understand the reality of rape, etc, in order to be a constructive member of human society, but I don't think you need it to write fic. As soon as anyone says, you need to be this to write that, there's an implication your personal reality is the only thing on which the fic can be built. Which in turn implies that what you write is who you are in reality.

It is not. We do not get off on rape, incest, or pedophilia. We are just as sickened and disgusted by the reality of these crimes as the next person, and more so than some.

We get off on fantasies of and fiction about rape, incest, and pedophilia, and it's entirely different. We make it entirely different, and that is why our own bodies and fantasies and minds don't constantly sicken and disgust us.

I think it's important that everyone learn about, educate themselves, trouble themselves to understand the horrors of rape, incest, pedophilia, abuse, so much more. I think it's important that we care about them, care about them intensely.

I think it's important that we ask each other to be responsible. Beg each other. Those of you who are in the trenches, inform us of the trauma and suffering of victims, leave us links to charities and shelters and places we can volunteer. Ask us to make our real lives better. I admit, sometimes I change the channel when it's about starving children, because I don't have any money to give and too often I am lazy and selfish of my time. And even though it's my right to say no, my right to choose--ask, because sometimes I choose yes, as so many do. Ask us to be responsible. Please.

Just sure as fuck don't bring my fiction into it, because I don't see how that relates. At all.

Comments

[lynnenne]

I appreciate that you always try to show the consequences of your characters' actions. That's just good storytelling. But sometimes... I don't think you should have to be "responsible" every time you write your ship. Yes, Spike/Buffy can be violent and destructive and abusive. They can also be hot and sexy and fun, and I don't think it's incumbent upon you as a writer to show the consequences of their actions in every single fic. Personally, I don't see a problem with writing them just to get off. The thing I took away from Heatherly's post is that it's wrong to get off while reading about certain subjects, and so we shouldn't write about them except in a Very Serious Manner.

And yes, I can understand that some people find it disturbing, to know that some of us enjoy incest fic. I found it disturbing, too, when I first read Flowers in the Attic and found that I enjoyed it. But you know what? I have no desire whatsoever to *act* on those urges. The idea of committing incest in real life makes me feel ill, and I would imagine that 99.9999% of people who read it feel the same way. I've long since come to terms with my own kinks, and I am not a threat to society. But I think people like Heatherly and others feel that I am a threat to fandom.

[rahirah]

Oh, it's not incest fic that bugs me. Incest fic just leaves me going 'meh,' at least, in contexts where it's obviously being treated as sexual fantasy. It's certain types of slavefic and hardcore D/s that make me squirm. (Oddly, it doesn't bug me nearly as much for original characters as it does in fanfic.)

And no, I don't think it's necessary to include a public service announcement with each fic - there's absolutely a place for pure fluffy porn, and ghod knows I've written my share. But I'm just saying, not everyone's got the same idea of what constitutes realistic consequences, and even if a story is trying to convey a Serious Message, not every reader is going to come away with the same Serious Message. Which is something I don't think the proponents of Responsible Writing are taking into account.

On the gripping hand, I can't help notice that a lot of the people who are speaking out in favor of irresponsible (so to speak) writing are the same people who were all up in arms over SexyMermaid's stuff, which is pretty much the epitome of id-driven pr0n. (Granted there were a lot of other issues involved there.) So, it's complicated.

[lynnenne]

My issues with Sexymermaid were about her RL comments, not her fic. Obviously there are people who enjoy her stuff, and they're more than welcome to it. Personally, I find her writing painful and her characters one-dimensional, but that doesn't mean I think she should stop writing. It just means that I don't have a problem with anyone calling it bad!fic.

[rahirah]

True - as I said, there were a lot of other issues involved there. (And her stuff falls squarely into DO NOT WANT territory for me, so I tend to bend over backwards to try not to let my distaste for the subject matter affect my opinion, which may be a doomed enterprise.)

[tkp.livejournal.com]

SexyMermaid writes about rape that is not defined within the fic as rape or treated as something that is emotionally damaging. Now, I find that disturbing, but I will defend pretty rabidly her right to write that.

But SexyMermaid's fic often has no warnings for content like rape, which I have a problem with. What follows is hearsay: people have said that they talked to her about this and that she claimed the stories did not include rape. That, and what she (allegedly) said about rape in another context, makes me feel like she doesn't understand the concept of rape, its history, and how traumatic it can be. I have a problem with some of her views in life, from what I can tell.

I admit: believing she holds those views makes her stories even more disturbing to me. But while I feel like I should be able to say, "I disagree with your views", I don't feel like *anyone* has the right to say, "and you should write your stories differently." The fictional things she writes just don't have anything to *do* with the point at hand, even if they *are* disturbing. Except for the fact that she doesn't mark them properly.

I feel like heatherly and people coming at this issue from a POV similar to heatherly's are really talking to people like SexyMermaid. People who don't seem to understand what these concepts are irl. But instead they're addressing their comments to anyone who writes rape, incest, pedophilia, abuse, etc. And I dislike the implication there, that if I write fluffy incest I don't understand the horrors of reality.

I don't mean to rant at you, Barb, because I don't think this is really what you're talking about, and I agree with a lot of your points: that "responsibility" can't be agreed upon and that the reader has a responsibility of their own. And I did feel, during the SM kerfluffle, that people were merging her fiction and her "RL" comments into a single thing that they were, as you say, up in arms against, and that disturbed me, because I want SM or anyone to be able to write anything they damn well please. So, again, I agree with your point: it's complicated and there are a lot of distinctions being made. HEE. So what I'm saying is I'm sorry I'm ranting when pretty much I agree with everything you've said.

[rahirah]

Rant away! I can (and do) argue both sides of this mess, sometimes in the same post, depending on the phase of the moon and who I'm talking to that day. It's one of those things where I don't think there's any one-size-fits-all correct answer, because while there are some writers who are pretty clearly living in a special universe all their own, I don't think they're as common as all that. Nor are writers who are clearly polemicists all that common. Most fic is going to fall somewhere in the messy middle where a reader can't make completely reliable assumptions about the author's thoughts and beliefs.

Hence week-long divertisments on metafandom.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Most fic is going to fall somewhere in the messy middle where a reader can't make completely reliable assumptions about the author's thoughts and beliefs.

I don't think a reader can EVER make a completely reliable assumption about an author's thoughts and beliefs, unless the author is writing non-fiction.

But yeah, I don't think there's an answer. I think people come at this issue from loads of different directions, carrying their own baggage in entrenched in their own viewpoints. I guess that's the way everyone comes at every issue. Hence metafandom...and life in general :o)

Thanks.