And for fandom's next act...

[lettered]

heatherly's post supports responsible and/or thoughtful writing about concepts such as rape, incest, and pedophilia.
xanphibian's post posits that fandom behaves responsibly in regards to that kind of fic through labeling and warnings, and that the fic behind such warnings is important to us as fans and women.

xanphibian covered most of my opinions on this, but I have two additional points. The first point I want to make as someone who has never suffered any form of abuse, sexual or otherwise, who was lucky enough to never ever be touched in a wrong or uncomfortable way, who had a great childhood. And still has gangbang rape fantasies.

xanphibian made the point that fiction about rape can help survivors deal with what they had suffered. And that these stories can sometimes be extremely realistic. So far (in this particular debate) I have seen those who would have us "write responsibly" acknowledge this point. I have not seen them say every fic that has to do with rape has to deal with rape realistically. I have seen them acknowledge that this therapeutic fic is not irresponsible.

But then they go and make a distinction between this "therapeutic" fic and fic written for kink, just to get off.

I don't get the difference.

The distinction they make is that the first type of fic may be unrealistic, but it is written for a serious and important reason (therapy), by people who are serious about the topic and understand the terrible reality of it. The second type of fic is written because it is hot. These people are not serious about the topics and don't care about them, and have no understanding of these issues IRL.

I wrote an incest fic once. My primary motivation to write it was because it was hot. The boys were pretty; I wanted to smoosh them; I have a kink for fictional incest. I may've had some concepts in there about the characters and I may've been making a pretty literary painting, but I wrote it to get off. And that? Was therapeutic for me. Me getting off is a Serious And Important reason to write this stuff. Because it shames me that I have these kinks--but not when I get to explore them in a fictional setting that can't hurt anyone. Not when other women read them and get off as well, not when other women can freely admit to having and freely explore their own fantasies. Because I don't know what I'd be doing right now if I didn't have this place I felt was safe to explore my fantasies. Possibly I would be seeking out situations that are unsafe because I wouldn't have this outlet of exploration. Knowing me, more probably, I would not. I would keep it to myself, and repress, and feel sick and ugly and bad for feeling the ways I do, and because I do know me I know it would spiral in on itself and make things like my anxiety and depression so much worse than they already are.

I know that my anxiety and depression are nothing next to the trauma others have suffered. I also know that me getting off from fiction, while extremely important, is a selfish concern compared to survivors using fiction to work through their pain, fear, distrust, everything.

But because I write this stuff to get off, because I'm writing straight to the kink, because the boys are pretty or Wincest is wrong but too hot to resist, because that is the only reason I am writing this--does that automatically mean I can't also be someone serious about the issue, who understands the terrible reality of it? Does it automatically mean I can have no emotional investment in these issues? Does it automatically mean I must not be considering all the implications and ramifications of what I write and how it relates to the general public, from everyone to children to survivors to middle aged women to the vast majority who could care less? If I write my kinks to get off, does that automatically make me ignorant, cavalier, irresponsible, and completely divorced from anything serious relating to this concept in real life?

I think most of us understand that rape is terrible and horrible and very very real. Even the average Joe understands that, even if he has never experienced it for himself. If we write Wincest for the sole reason that it is hot, that doesn't mean we don't understand that it would be wrong irl, that if they were real and really brothers it would be unhealthy and emotionally damaging. What it means is we find it hot, completely separate from RL consequences.


POINT TWO. If people weren't cutting, weren't warning, if people were posting in kids' forums or at the local YMCA, it would be obvious to me that the people calling for responsibility here meant we need cuts and warnings and labels and stricter posting rules. As it is, I don't know what they're asking for. If it is showing real life consequences within our fiction, that is addressed above and quite well in xanphibian's post. If it is just that we be serious about said issues, care about them, and have an understanding of them in reality--what the hell has that got to do with my fanfic (beyond cutting, warning, labeling, posting in appropriate places)?

The distinction being made--between authors who are aware of real life consequences and those who are not, between those who write for serious reasons and those who write for kink--the distinction implies that it matters who or what the author is, that it matters why they write what they do. That makes no sense to me. It's not a reflection on the work if Lewis Carroll crushed on Alice Liddel or Byron had a suspicious relationship with his sister. More importantly, the work is not a reflection of the author. Nabokov was not a pedophile and Thomas Harris is probably not a cannibal. A story can tell everything there is to know about a real man, and also nothing at all. You cannot learn anything true about anyone's real life from a work that is purely fiction. I am not saying fiction has nothing to do with reality, but that no valid judgments can be drawn from it.

I have not seen anyone (in this particular debate) say you should be a rape victim to write fic about rape, or that you need to confess you are a rape victim on a fic about that subject matter. What I have seen, though, is people saying you need to understand the reality of rape, that it's not like what you're writing, that you need to care about it, and consider its victims and perpetrators and all the people in between. I think you need to understand the reality of rape, etc, in order to be a constructive member of human society, but I don't think you need it to write fic. As soon as anyone says, you need to be this to write that, there's an implication your personal reality is the only thing on which the fic can be built. Which in turn implies that what you write is who you are in reality.

It is not. We do not get off on rape, incest, or pedophilia. We are just as sickened and disgusted by the reality of these crimes as the next person, and more so than some.

We get off on fantasies of and fiction about rape, incest, and pedophilia, and it's entirely different. We make it entirely different, and that is why our own bodies and fantasies and minds don't constantly sicken and disgust us.

I think it's important that everyone learn about, educate themselves, trouble themselves to understand the horrors of rape, incest, pedophilia, abuse, so much more. I think it's important that we care about them, care about them intensely.

I think it's important that we ask each other to be responsible. Beg each other. Those of you who are in the trenches, inform us of the trauma and suffering of victims, leave us links to charities and shelters and places we can volunteer. Ask us to make our real lives better. I admit, sometimes I change the channel when it's about starving children, because I don't have any money to give and too often I am lazy and selfish of my time. And even though it's my right to say no, my right to choose--ask, because sometimes I choose yes, as so many do. Ask us to be responsible. Please.

Just sure as fuck don't bring my fiction into it, because I don't see how that relates. At all.

Comments

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

given that it's ok to criticise characterisation, grammar, racist tropes etc, I don't see why it's wrong to say to someone "It could just be me, but your story feels like it condones/trivialises -blah-".

*nods like a bobble head* I'm never quite sure I'm on the same page as the rest of fandom when it comes to these issues. I'm pretty sure I'm missing some of the right academic/theoretical background -- because I've seen, over and over again, fans argue that it's problematic to use, for example, rape as a kink or a cheap "add [x] here for extra angst, stir, add porn" plot device, both because it can be construed as disrespectful to those who have endured the reality of rape (by trivializing it, white-washing it, etc), and because plot tropes such as "he raped her but it's okay because he loved her" or "he raped her but it's okay 'cause she really wanted it anyway" perpetuate harmful gender stereotypes.

But when people make similar arguments about chan being problematic, everyone protests that it's an entirely different kettle of fish. If it's expected that fans ought to be mindful of real life issues when writing minority characters, mindful of real life issues when writing about rape, etc, then why is chan different?

Just the fact that it's often written to satisfy a kink automatically excuse the writer from having to do research/present the situation in a way that shows they know it's problematic? I'm betting that if someone wrote BDSM between a planter and a slave set on an antebellum cotton plantation, and then insisted that they didn't have to address any of the race issues inherant in the situation because they were simply writing to satisfy their master/slave kink, fandom's reaction would be, ah, interesting.

[alixtiireader2.livejournal.com]

Certainly this fic exists? I mean, there have to be antebellum fandoms....

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I've seen, over and over again, fans argue that it's problematic to use, for example, rape as a kink [...]
But when people make similar arguments about chan being problematic, everyone protests that it's an entirely different kettle of fish."

In an ideal world, I would say that it's not the same fans arguing both those points. In the real world, I'd fully admit that some of the same fans do argue both those points. And sometimes it may be because they're idiotic or hypocritical or don't really know what they're talking about or can see both sides of the issue and can't decide or don't think there's a right answer.

But on the whole, I'd say that there're some fans who believe in "responsible writing". Who believe that because our words have power, we should always be wary of what we do with that power. And then there are some fans who believe in amoral writing. Who believe that the power of our words lies in writing anything we feel like, rather than only those things we feel we should or will promote the general welfare of society.

Sometimes, like I said, fans in the latter category might argue something differently, and yeah, that's inconsistency. But lots of times I see people in the latter category saying things such as they don't like stories that trivialize rape--but they would never say that such stories are wrong or that they should be written differently. And sometimes, as in the recent Buffyverse kerfluffle, those fans will say it's wrong if a person trivializes rape in real life conversation, or by saying outside the fiction that it's alright to rape a woman who has rape fantasies so her fiction isn't rape, or something like that. But they would still say that within the fiction, anything the author wants to can be true or happen.

For my own two cents: I'm for writing whatever the hell we choose. If someone wrote BDSM between a planter and a slave set on an antebellum cotton plantation without addressing racial issues I'd respect her right to write it. I...read that as BDSM with a plant at first and I find that disturbing, but I'd respect anyone's right to write that, too.

If that writer did not understand race issues or the horrors that African Americans suffered in the past, and things they still suffer today because of it, I'd think she needed help, and to be informed. But I wouldn't think it had a damn thing to do with her fiction.

[alias_sqbr]

Actually I've encountered a bunch of people who seem to think that any subject can, in theory, be "trivialised" (In the sense of being written as unrealistic fantasy ignoring the Issues). Some seem to think it's only ok if you've considered your reasons for writing it and are doing it as part of a community where it's established that it's all fantasy and everyone knows That's Not How Things Really Work, but other people seem to have a "fiction is just fiction and is always ok to write" attitude. (Since I'm not in either group I've probably done both POVs a huge disservice!)

I have some sympathy for the first group since while I personally cannot stand stories which romantisise or trivialise things like rape or even teacher/student, I do find myself reading a lot of quite violent fiction, not all of which is at all realistic. I'm a pacifist who wouldn't hurt a fly and I get annoyed at people who imply that anyone who likes any violent media, regardless of context, is secretly a serial killer or whatever.

But I have a harder time understanding the second group. Certainly while I can see their point that you can't really judge a piece of writing without context, I think you can judge it in context and say "This story is promoting racism, whether the author meant it to or not" or whatever.

I've been trying to educate myself by reading Wikipedia. but have thoroughly confused myself about the interactions between post-modernism and Authorial Intentionality, I think I may give up and do some gardening :)