lettered | Oh, so, I meant that, about good bye.

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Oh, so, I meant that, about good bye.

Thought about it a lot, and I'm leaving Livejournal.

That's all dramatic and stuff, but I probably won't be gone until the end of the year. If most people decide to leave, and there's a mass exodus before then, I may be gone earlier. But this journal, my fic journal, and my private backup journal will be gone for certain by January 1, 2008.

I have a lot of stuff to say about the whole LJ/6A debacle, but for some reason every time I start a post on it I just have to get up and walk away from it, give it some time, read lots and lots of Harry/Draco, spend time with my family, or eat ice cream. Can't decide whether I'm too angry about it, depressed perhaps, lazy maybe, or possibly I'm an ostrich? Anyway, during the strikeout in May I felt very energized, but maybe that was because I thought that it was possible that LJ had made a mistake, and after hearing customer complaints, would fix it. In other words, I knew I was going to give Livejournal another chance. Well, I did, but I am still displeased as a customer. So, I take my business elsewhere.

I don't know where. One of the reasons I'm staying on LJ for another few months is that I want to see how many other people leave and where they go. Even if a lot of you leave (which I sekritly hope you will), it will not be all at once, and LJ will still be the place to be in the thick of fandom things for a while. If there is a mass movement, decision making, support/rallying/reasearch/etc to be done, I want to be involved. And if people are going to continue to discuss the issues connected to why I'm leaving, I want to be a part of those discussions. Because I do have a lot to say, and I want to say it to my flist, people who I'm interested in having around wherever I end up.

I'm going to back up the journals I have here and copy them to Insane Journal for now. I'm going to be cross-posting to Insane Journal (where I am tkp) and possibly Journal Fen over the next several months. I hope to gradually phase out: to just post links to fic here, instead of actual fics here, etc. Then I will be gone. I know I can make myself do that, but I know I can't make myself never visit LJ again. If you do decide to stay and not post elsewhere, I may still visit from time to time, but I will not have an account here ever again. I don't want to lose touch with any of you. I mean, well, except you; you're always talking about your grandmother's corns.

So, um, this isn't quite yet goodbye, and won't be for a while. Mostly I'm just posting this because once I say I'll do something, I'll do it. And now I've said it.

Okay, now that announcements are over: what're your thoughts? Leavin' on a jet plane? Why? Staying, why? Cat macros? Why not? Where are you going, if you go, where're you lookin' at, what are your hopes and dreams for fandom future? What did you think of the last ep of Mad Men? Is Jason Isaacs the man, or what? How 'bout that burr86, Barak, and Brad? Does the news comm make you laugh, cry, headdesk, or wha...? Did anyone even like the first two Bourne movies? What's your favorite pizza delivery service? Do you think Livejournal would disallow canon!Buffy/Angel fanart? How come I can't spell misogyny? What's the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist? And the number one question all of us are asking: how come Buffy never wore the go-go boots again?

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Your posts may not be fic but they're still interesting. I dunno, I just feel like if I started a new journal and ONLY had my fic there, people would miss a chance to know about me. Not that I spend THAT much time reading way back personal entries on people's journals...it's just...I dunno! There's something really unsettling to me about not having all of the stuff I have on LJ behind me when I start somewhere else.

Anyway, so that's why I'm transferring my whole journal, including fic. But now seems like a really good time to start a fic web site, too, so maybe I'll do that.

Hullo! We have to stop meeting like this, Stef.

But to both of you: this is what I worry about. I worry that any area of the 'net that reaches the critical mass of FANDOM will, like, LJ, be bought by companies, like SA. Anything popular enough to be useful to us will be considered a cash cow by someone. What happens when IJ is inundated by new members? Well, they'll need more people to work it, more server space, more power in general. More money.

I'm just not sure how to keep something like this non-profit *and* big enough to house the amorphous thing fandom is.

BTW, I'm my_daroga on IJ and GJ, too. Hopefully JF as well.

for me though (and let it be said that the vast majority of my mutual flist are local folks who are my real life friends) that fact that lj has all my homies on it means they have what i want.

Oh yeah. I definitely understand that. I've been talking with one or two other people who are really fed up and want to leave as fans, but don't want to leave as people who post about their RL and have RL connections here. That makes perfect sense to me: as you say, LJ is still offering them what they want. There're still some things I like about LJ, namely my friends and the community we've build here, but since I am here SOLELY for fandom purposes what LJ does have to offer me is not enough to mitigate what they're not offering me.

i'd eat there all the damn time, y'know?

Well yes, unless there was another hypothetical restaurant down the street offering the same free food with good service. For you, the situation is different, because it's not the same food--as you mentioned and as I discussed above, you have RL friends here, which perhaps would not follow you. So you can't get that anywhere else. But again, I can get what I'm getting elsewhere, and the service there is potentially better. It may not be better, but I'm only hurting myself if I don't try.

And dude, this comment doesn't strike me as argumentative at all. I totally understand your position, and it seems like you really understand mine. This is a great discussion, and we really seem to be on the same page. Thanks for that.

That pizza place looks awesome. Our local delivery places suck around here. I love sandwiches, but don't like rootbeer floats. You probably don't live near Texas, which means you probably haven't had Bluebell vanilla icecream. It's the best ice cream in the country.

oh, well obviously you don't live in the south! Didn't look at the address of that place.

Fod posted this picture which you may've seen before (or may've even linked to?) Anyway, her point is that LJ is on the edges of the etherworld, and that fandom is a reason for that. (She goes on to say that this is attractive to some advertizers 'cause LJ accesses a niche that might not be accessed otherwise, but I disagree with what she says about hurting LJ. If LJ loses fandom and thus some of its uniqueness, 6A will be more than happy to march straight into the mess of a galaxy or whatever and make money there just like MySpace.)

I said to someone else below: fandom is by definition non-mainstream. It exists on the fringes. But the metaphorical internet universe (as pictured) is expanding. And the way I see it, any place that fandom chooses will swell on its own, and everything else will swell to meet it, and I think that's what's happening here with LJ. So fandom, by definition (if it is to survive) has to keep on picking up and moving to the outskirts. And...that sucks, but I'd rather do that than get swallowed by the mainstream, and thus not have the stuff that makes fandom unique, the place where you can explore the things you don't otherwise get to.

So even if fandom eventually does construct it's own place, it's probable that in time, that will be bigger, need money as you say, get swallowed by something like 6A, and then get swallowed by mainstream restrictions. But to me that just says--we have to keep moving, and keep trying, or that which is so precious to us won't exist any more. Ya know?

It's so inter

So in a sense, you're saying that fandom is, by necessity, nomadic. Once we settle somewhere and "integrate," we might be content enough but our culture is lost. It's an imperfect analogy, but is that close?

I understand that. I'm also struggling, now, because I've only just learned about the new issues and, as others have said lots of us feel, none of them affect me. Which I'm not presenting as a reason to stay, just a consideration. My LJ is so inconsistent content-wise, and I'm so attached to people here, that whatever I decide will make things difficult.

On the other hand, I *don't* have a big reputation, or an active fandom life. So maybe it's not such a big deal for me to leave. Wait, that sounded like I'm saying that means I don't have to. I mean the opposite--What I'm giving up, I could retain through email, etc.

I also stand by my assertion that it's hella different when women participate in creating/sharing this kind of art/fiction than when men do.

Wordy McWord Word Word. How many sex crimes are committed by women? Less than 5 percent. That's not zero, but it's a hell of a lot better than 95 percent. All this fanaticism about banning "child porn" should target the places where men hang out, instead of spaces created for women by women. They'd increase their chances of rooting out actual pedophiles by 2,000%.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I have a lot more to say about it; hopefully soon I can finish all these posts and clarify all my reasoning here.

none of them affect me

I don't read chan. I don't like it. And I don't like visual porn much, period.

I don't feel very threatened insofar as my fannish production goes. Yes, I've written incest; yes, I read about sex with minors (post-pubescent minors, thus the distinction from chan), but despite all this hullabaloo I just don't see my content getting me deleted. So in that sense, it doesn't affect me either.

I feel threatened insofar as what my perception of fandom is. To me it's a place where you can explore things you can't elsewhere, through a medium that is safe, shared, insightful. Whether that exploration is sexual in nature or not. Limiting that exploration takes out what made it so special--the fact that you can explore things here that you can't elsewhere. So to that extent it does affect me. If affects me a lot, and I feel like it affects fandom as a whole.

That's my opinion. You're entitled to your own. I wouldn't leave unless I was truly dissatisfied, and I am. If you aren't, no matter how small your reputation is or how active you are in fandom life, I see no reason for you to leave.

But yeah. For me, there's reason to leave. And like you, I feel like I can also retain what I'm giving up. It might be a little more difficult, but I don't really mind that.

I feel threatened insofar as what my perception of fandom is. To me it's a place where you can explore things you can't elsewhere, through a medium that is safe, shared, insightful.

Yes. This, I agree with wholeheartedly; and what I think I'm waiting for is for the chips to fall and the lines to be drawn (if they are) and to know if such a space is real and available. Even if I become dissatisfied as a result of *your* dissatisfaction, it doesn't mean that if I leave, it will be all for you. If that makes sense. What I'm really trying to say is that you're experiencing me exploring this issue, so it might look like you're unduly influencing me; you're not.

Just found you on JF, tkp too - added you both.

We party everywhere.

Yeah, that's what I meant about IJ. If someone could construct a journaling site for fandom - more to the point, a good journaling site - that would be cool. I'm... not certain it's going to happen soon, though. The way I see it, making a fannaling site would require a group of skilled fannish webmasters to get together, quit all of their jobs, and start up the site as a business (they'd need to, to afford the servers). If done right, it could go really well for the newfound entrepreneurs (possible instant success if news of it gets to fandom quickly)... but since fandom is pretty much a (brain-eating, soul-consuming) spare time hobby to most, I don't know if the combination of ability and inclination exists in enough people that 1) know each other and 2) are able to work together to make it work.

As to the strange combination of people to agree with... Barb and Liz have great point on the reason why they're angry. It's not that the journals were deleted, it's because they were deleted permanently without warning or chance of appeal. And I really, really get that (plus, Barb quietly made the point about not wanting the kiddie porn policies clarified either, IIRC).

But I'm not as mad as they are, mostly for the reasons that vw & ll (especially ll) stated. Not because I hear the phrase "it's a business" and automatically all is forgiven, but because I'm a little surprised that deletions aren't more common than they are. Primarily due to the whole "most fannish activities are illegal" thing. It's startling to me that more fic communities aren't locked (or weren't - some of them are getting the idea) just out of a fear of copyright infringement laws. Add to that my pre-existing paranoia about kiddie porn laws... I don't post pictures of my cousins in the bath, no matter how cute they are, for exactly that reason (our family rejoiced when we got digital cameras, because then we didn't have to worry about being arrested for developing photos of the wee nudists). Two plus two equaling duh, the recent deletions come as no surprise to me, especially since LJ is indubitably looking a bit harder for things that squick them after the first strikethrough. So since I'm less surprised, I'm also less mad (it also helps that I'm squicked enough by the "art" to not terribly mind their absence, no matter how free-speechy I am).

LJ/6A may have come down too hard and too fast, which is worth some anger... it's being offended (very small, but noteworthy difference) that's uncalled for. Which is where I think lornelover really hit the nail on the head with her comment about entitlement.

***

I'm in ur internetz, harshing ur flounce.

Oh God not more stupid people and wank!

I didn't start MM because 1) I don't need more shows to watch and 2) I have a hard time getting into standard form dramas (which I gather MM is) - I prefer monster/crime/adventure-of-the-week form, it gives me something to pay attention to while I get to know/like the characters.

Okay, Jason earns major points for geekery. He may have passed Alan and taken second place. But Gary has geekery, too! He wore black on the day he finished reading OotP because he was in mourning for Sirius! And the was in the R & G Are Dead movie! And Sid & Nancy! He recorded a duet with David Bowie!!!

...I don't even know you. I tend to view the Bourne movies as a higher quality action movie all around. Believability and excitement in the same movie - definitely to be cherished.

Regular or pan? I can't speak to regular, but the PH pan pizza beats everything. It's fairly difficult to find a Godfather's (it's actually been long enough since I've had one that I can't be certain it's not all down to nostalgia), but they may not have made it to Texas yet (but they are in Montana, so I know they've gone national).

I think we're saying basically the same thing about Buffy's early wardrobe, just I'm being way more sarcastic. It's been that kind of week.

Oh, that makes much sense. And I get the impression that lots of people are just waiting. Even people who've *said* they're staying--if fandom does find another place for itself, as I said, I think they'll come over too or visit enough for it to be a community like fandom on LJ is.

And yeah, I can understand people being sad if I leave, because I'm sad too, but...I wouldn't want anyone to leave because they think it's all falling apart, especially if they left and then it didn't fall apart.

Not because I hear the phrase "it's a business" and automatically all is forgiven,

Okay, good. Because I do seem to see people saying that, or suggesting I feel that way. That line of reasoning make me go bzuh? just as much as those who feel entitled to have any damn thing they pleased and oppressed because they can't.

I'm a little surprised that deletions aren't more common than they are. Primarily due to the whole "most fannish activities are illegal" thing.

Oh, sure. I'm surprised fandom has lasted so long in the midst of what's becoming a more and more mainstream site. But just as the fact that it's a business isn't really a defense against the way LJ has been treating its customers, this isn't either.

(it also helps that I'm squicked enough by the "art" to not terribly mind their absence, no matter how free-speechy I am)

If you are for free speech, I don't understand what being squicked has to do with the situation. At all.

it's being offended (very small, but noteworthy difference) that's uncalled for. Which is where I think lornelover really hit the nail on the head with her comment about entitlement.

There are those who are offended because they think LJ won't give them what they want; as you (and ll, and vw) say, they feel entitled. And that's stupid. But there are those who are offended because they're being badly treated as customers, which to me is a world of difference.

You go into a store to buy a pink pony. Turns out they've discontinued their pink pony line. It's stupid to get angry with the store about that--the store is not obliged to carry pink ponies and you are not entitled to buy one there. But if the store is shitty about it--like they say they might order a shipment of ponies, but then don't, and their terms about getting the next shipment of ponies in is unclear, and store managers are unavailable to question about pink ponies, and so on and so forth--it's understandable to feel offended that you're getting bad customer service there. I hope that very poor and hopelessly wanky analogy makes some sense.

***

OMG on Oldman wearing black. SO cute! And he and Mr. Rickman totally outclass Mr. Isaacs (Mr. Rickman is Hans Gruber AND Colonel Brandon, fer chrissakes!) but then again that makes him so underdoggy! He just wants to do his ickle best with his long blond wig and pimp cane! It's hard out there for a Malfoy!

Yeah, the Bourne movies are utter yawners to me. Though I recently rewatched the 2nd one and didn't fall asleep; it was more compelling than I remembered, though maybe that was 'cause I ff'ed through the chase scenes. I don't like the muted colors and shaky camera; it depresses me and makes me feel sick. And I'm sorry, I don't find any of that stuff realistic at all. In fact, I prefer the action movies that bend reality (like the ridiculous chase scenes in the latest Bond movie) because then I know no one actually expects me to take them seriously. ZOMG don't kill me.

Not sure I've had Pizza Hut pan pizza! So sad. Will do! I've seen a Godfather's or two down here--don't know if one would deliver to my house, but we actually had them being sold in highschool for a while! I just never got around to buying it.

At first I just felt "Oh, it's over! Everyone will be in different places, and everything will die."

Well, everyone already *is* in different places. I've got "identities" on a host of social networking and fan sites; I've got art/photography groups; even on LJ, there are RL people and fan people and movie people... There's already a juggling act.

As insurance, I've registered my_daroga at GJ, JF and IJ (not to mention Vox--ugh!--and DevArt). And in the world of web 2.0 and rss and the like, it'd be criminal to assume anyone can really be cut off.

If you are for free speech, I don't understand what being squicked has to do with the situation
Okay... don't disown me or anything, because I'm not even sure how to explain this. There's going to be a lot of hyperbole and flailing about for the right words here... (Did I mention the hyperbole? I'm intentionally exaggerating by quite a bit, because if I presented this opinion to the much smaller degree I actually believe, then my point would never make it through the sea of "kinda," "sorta," and "almost.")

There's... a kind of line between what squicks me, pisses me off, whatever and things that I will take action about. My general guide is to stop and ask myself "what would I do if I saw this person standing on a public street corner saying/showing this, instead of on the radio/tv/internet/etc.?" Usually the answer is "roll my eyes and keep walking." But in this situation (at least for the first illustration, I think the second one was an overreactionary smackdown that happened due to association with the first one)... I'm quite certain that I'd be torn between calling the cops and picking a fight. It crosses the line.

Because sexual attraction to a para-pubescent 12-year-old is still pedophilia, even if it isn't quite as scary as attraction to a 5-year-old. Because I don't care if it's a fictional character and the artist in question probably isn't about to seek out actual 12-year-olds to molest (never mind that LJ/6A don't know that). It's still fucking scary and crosses the line into one of the very few things I will actually step forward and denounce as WRONG.

/hyperbole

If you haven't disowned me yet, I'm very grateful, 'cause I still like you quite a lot. Now I will clarify, and tone it down a bit:

Yes, the OPs should have gotten a warning. Or LJ should have just deleted the post with the offensive content instead of the entire journal. Something more fair than what they did.

Yes, the illustration posted was still within touching distance of the line, even if they had crossed it.

No, I don't blame LJ for not wanting that crap on their website, because I wouldn't want it on my website either and I can't guarantee I'd handle it better than LJ did.

...Great, even the not!hyperbole comes across harsher than I mean. :/ There may be PMS involved. Well, in the hopes you're still speaking to me:

I hope that very poor and hopelessly wanky analogy makes some sense
It makes a whole lot of sense, actually. It's just that it seems to me a whole lot of lemmings aren't getting that far in their train of thought when they start getting offended. Even so, it's not like lemmings will jump off a cliff if there's no cliff to jump off of (and boy howdy, did LJ/6A build one Hell of a cliff...).

(You are not a lemming. You are a graceful and clever squirrel, clambering down the cliff face with your nifty backwards-turning ankles and stylish fluffy tail. Liz, Barb, and company are high-tech hamsters with fancy rappelling harnesses. ;))

Personally, I like Stoney's approach to the whole mess: Cover her ass (or her fic, as the case may be), stay mostly put, and buy the shit out of LJ stock when they go public (if only I had enough money to buy stock).

***

Ooh, you just had to play the underdog card, didn't you? ;)

I'll give you that the shaky camera work in the second one got a bit annoying (overall, it's not as good as the first one anyways). The thing that bugs me about the really stylized chases in other movies is that there's no risk to them - I just can't get involved (think Italian Job - never been so bored watching mini Coopers before). Funny you should mention CR (best Bond ever, BTW), because that was done almost entirely live, no CGI, and the only time they were on wires in that first chase was when they were up in the crane... Wait a minute. People expect us to take action movies seriously? Whoa. I never knew.

It's the custom toppings that really make Godfather's what it is - I seem to remember shrimp & black olives being quite excellent.

Well I am one of the many Lurkers of the community. I do have a LJ and sometimes write in it when I post fics or fanart. But due to my favorite lurking places moving over to IJ, I now have an account over there.

I have FAITH in our community whether it be Buffy/Angel *which is me*, or Buffy/Spike or Angel/Cordy...or which ever your flavor is, because of our websites where we can post links to our journals. From there you can go to the friends page and find others, so we will always be around and able to keep up with one another.

THE fandom will not die unless we stop posting in journals where ever they may be, or stop writing and posting to your websites, or stop making the beautiful Fanart.

So I say dont be sad.... stand up write or design some fanart and Keep the fandom going...cause we will go on .. this is just a place, it is not Fandom (us). The Fandom is where ever we go!!!!

OUR fandom is Forever...that is the whole point....

Terra

I'm going to respond to the last paragraph....
I'm going to stay on LJ, mostly because I didn't know anything about the controversy, and also because it happened before I became active in LJ (not that it doesn't affect me, but anyway). Also, all of my friends are here... I like LJ... yeah.
As to the other questions:
1) What are cat macros?
2) I have never watched "Mad Men."
3) Jason Isaacs is super sexy and hot! =D
4) I don't know much about the LJ staff people.
5) I never read the news comm, so I don't know.
6) I liked the first two Bourne movies! Well, I liked the first one the best out of all of the Bourne movies, I think.
7) My favorite pizza delivery service is Papa John's.
8) I think LJ would allow Buffy/Angel fanart.
9) I can't spell anything either; don't worry.
10) I think a psychiatrist can prescribe drugs and a psychologist can't.
11) I don't know anything about Buffy or go-go boots. =)
Is the situation better with LJ now?

1) This is a cat macro, also called a LOLcat:

It's an image of a cat with a caption. The caption is what the cat is saying, but spelled badly, as if the cat didn't know how to spell. There's a traditional spelling for a lot of words, like "hai" for "hi". The font is usually the same.

It's sort of an internet meme. A meme is anything that gets passed around, sort of like chain mail, except that people just pick it up, it isn't specifically distributed. A meme can be a picture, like a LOLcat, or a phrase, like "im in ur base killin ur doodz", and sometimes they are combined. Like ceilingcat is a lolcat, and he says, "im in ur ceilin watchin u masterbate".

Ceiling cat is famous, as is cheeseburger cat, who says, "i can has cheeseburger?" which made the phrase "i can has?" popular.

Sometimes lolcats aren't cats. There's a walrus who goes, "i has a bucket. Ahh, they be stealin mah bucket!", etc.

It's weird and complicated and funny, if you hang around long enough. Here is a wikipedia.com article on lolcats: article. Wikipedia has a lot of internet speak and terms on it, in case that's helpful.

8) The issue with canon Buffy/Angel fanart is Buffy was under the legal age for sex in the show--she slept with Angel when she was 17 in the show. But lj banned pictures depicting minors in sexual situations, which meant fanart showing Buffy and Angel as they were in the show would be banned.

LJ still has this rule.

Thanks for the information again!
Sorry, I didn't know that Buffy was underage. I should probably research these things before I say anything. =P I'm sorry!

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Oh, so, I meant that, about good bye.

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To Leave or Not to Leave

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Ugrently need your help!