lettered: (Default)
It's Lion Turtles all the way down ([personal profile] lettered) wrote2006-02-01 07:22 am

B/A Thingy

A rant, a squee, and an essay walked into a bar and produced this meta-cle miracle.

I love B/A because Angel falls in empathy with Buffy at first sight. Which is easy, because a Slayer getting Called is like Angel getting a soul because they both are 1. the only ones, 2. suddenly made aware of realities they'd rather not face, 3. given to feel a certain obligation.

It's a "hey, you're not the only one with problems, suck it up and try to fix it" kind of thing. But also, Buffy is the first human with whom Angel can identify in over two centuries. It's that connection, when he has held himself so separate from all that's granted humans, which allows him to think he can help humans, allows him to hope.

Now, Angel may have been able to identify with any Slayer being Called, but Buffy is unique among Slayers. Her heroism, her fight for right, her love of friends and family, her complete inability to give up even when she wants to--being a Slayer brings that out in her, but that's not inherent Slayer stuff (look at Faith). That's Buffy. Angel fucking loves that about Buffy. He wants to be just like her (which [livejournal.com profile] germaine_pet says beautifully in Vicarious. Fantastic B/A fic, even though it's A/S).

Also, while the girl/Slayer conflict is appealing to Angel because he can identify with it, the "normal girl" Buffy wants to be is unique to Buffy, not being a Slayer--even the nature of that conflict and how she deals with it is Buffy herself, not her role. He likes that she puns her enemies--her sense of humor. He likes that she slays in mini-skirts--her independence, unwillingness to simply conform to her situation (and her fashion sense. And her hot little body). He likes the way she'll dwell on not getting to go shopping when she's in danger of apocalypse every other day. He likes that she'll tell him so, that she'll be vulnerable to him, and that he feels like he can actually be there for her.

It's that that draws her to him in return. Yes, their roles as Slayer and vampire with a soul are suited to each other: Angel is the only one who is 1. intimately acquainted with the world she lives in, 2. not worrisomely mortal, and 3. not trying to kill her. That makes Buffy feel safe and comfortable with him in a way she can't with any other person (see "Never Kill A Boy On A First Date", BtVS 1x05). But it's also Angel's personality that makes Buffy feel safe and comfortable. He listens. He offers his insights. He doesn't push her to agree with those insights. He doesn't push her to do anything. He doesn't stand in her way unless her decisions directly affect him. He lets her take charge, and she likes that.

Buffy likes his humor. She likes that he can help her with history and French. She likes that she feels like she could wait forever to have sex with him and he'd be just fine with that (as long as there was lots of making out). I love B/A because Buffy thinks that she can have something normal with Angel, precisely because Angel is the most not normal thing out there, and that's just twisted.

I love B/A because Angel thinks what he can have something normal with Buffy as well, and that's just fucking naive. Oh, he knows it's not a fairytale. He tells Buffy so, and she knows it's not as well ("Reptile Boy", BtVS 2x05). I used to wonder at "fairytale" girls-- young women have had to have heard and read and seen enough these days to know that "love" isn't always happy and safe and forever. And then I fell in love. And I don't know about y'all, but for me, it didn't matter what I knew. I knew I was being stupid and careless and hopelessly optimistic and naive. But I was ready to be all of that, and risk my heart, on the idea that this love actually was the fairytale.

Oh, please. Six months later it's over and I am never talking about it on my lj again. But it's happened to the best of us, that this is it feeling, and I daresay it happened for most of us. It's predictable, common, and cliche. What's tritest about it is you think it's unique; you think you're the only one who's felt that way, the only one for whom it will all work out, and at the same time, you know every other person falling in love for the first time has felt that way as well. Buffy and Angel knew it wasn't a fairytale, but they couldn't help feeling that way anyway. "I love you. I try not to, but I can't stop." ("Innocence", BtVS 2x14). I love B/A because it's exactly what you feel when you fall in love.

I also love B/A because it's cheesy. Come on, the Claddagh rings? I don't care if it's an old Irish tradition or whatever, he slipped that ring on her finger and I kept thinking: are you in high school? And I love that. I love that he keeps movies he went to with her's ticket stubs (so stolen from [livejournal.com profile] kita0610's My Angel), and that she wears his jacket sometimes just to smell him. They are a dead, several centuries old murderer and a cheerleader turned world savior, and they behave like those teenagers from highschool who wore bracelets they'd made for each other and wouldn't stop snogging in the practice rooms.

You're saying, hey wait. This is just why I don't love B/A. Cheesy and trite may be your cuppa but it ain't mine, honey, and I want me my angst love. Obviously, I haven't gotten to the part where he goes evil and her heart breaks and he'll probably never be able to forgive himself for making love to the woman he loves and she kills him. Because yeah, that part. The part where she shoves a sword in his chest.

A lot of people say B/A is "fairytale" and Romeo and Juliet. Okay, for one thing, those two terms are mutuall exclusive. Fairytales end happy and Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy. Anyway, I assume most of the time when people say Romeo and Juliet they don't necessarily mean the actual story or the play, but more the idea of "dramatic tragic doomed romance"--you know, lovers who can't live without each other, lovers who would do anything to be together.

Lovers who can't live without each other. *Points to the part where Buffy lives after she kills Angel and the part where Angel goes on existing after Buffy dies.*

Lovers who would do anything to be together. Dude. Sword.-->Angel's (very yummy) chest. Remember?

Truth is, Buffy cared more about saving the world than she did Angel (*collective gasp*). Okay, you could burst my bubble and claim, Well, if she didn't save the world, she couldn't be with Angel anyway, so it was more of a Catch-22 than Buffy stating very firmly (with a sword!) that Angel was not the be-all and end-all of her existence. True. But I'm telling you right now, Buffy wasn't very sensibly reasoning out the fact that she was screwed either way. All she was thinking was, "I have to do this. I have to do this. Nothing else matters--not even Angel. I have to do this." And even before she knew he was going to end the world with Acathla, Buffy had decided to kill Angelus, and I personally believe she would've done it. Her friends and family's safety was more important than the chance that she could get Angel back.

When people talk about B/A as "just a first love", I assume the dismissiveness comes from that naivete that comes with first love (or, for some people, love as it always is at its inception; I have a nasty premonition it'll always be that way for me) I described earlier. Yeah. That part with the sword? It's not a "risk it all for love" moment, not a "I try not to love you but I can't help it" moment, not a "I'm young, naive and stupid and yet I think my love will overcome all obstacles" moment. It's a "I love you but love ain't gonna overcome this. Go to hell. Bye!" moment. It's the moment at which the fairytale ends and Juliet would've crapped her pants. It's the moment at which, if B/A was "just a first love", their love fails. It fails, but it continues afterwards, which makes it not "just a first love". Take the first three words off that quote and you have it. It's love.

I love B/A for that. I love B/A because both of them would rather do what they percieve as the "right" thing than be together. It doesn't mean they love each other any less, but it does mean they're a lot more mature about it than fairytales and that Juliet chick. I'd say Buffy's love for Angel grows beyond that when she kills him. And Angel's love grows beyond that when he realizes he has to leave her.

Angel leaves, in the end, because he got his own show "for her own good." That's a sticky issue, and why some people might disagree with me when I say Angel doesn't push her or stand in her way and lets her take charge. He takes a decision that she thinks should have been both of theirs and makes it his, because he sees himself as the more responsible, knowledgeable one, which in a way is insulting to Buffy. But let me say three things: 1. he was right. 2. she eventually figured out he was right, and 3. I personally wish someone in my life had acted his age, like the more mature, more experienced person in the relationship, and left me so decisively I couldn't argue it. It would've broken my heart, but things would've worked better in the end.

Imo, he left her for a number of reasons (I love me my lists). 1. The curse. Buffy claimed it didn't matter to her that she couldn't make love to Angel. Now, she might've been right, but she had very little sexual experience, a woman's "sexual peak" is supposed to be age 35 (according to . . . don't know where I found that out), and seasons 4-6 show Buffy exploring various aspects of her sexuality. I have difficulty believing she actually knew what she was giving up. Angel knew, and he wanted to give her the chance to do the exploration she took so much advantage of after he left.

2. He wanted her to have happy, normal life. Doesn't sound like the brightest thing ever, as Buffy is a. slated to die soon, and b. not ever going to have a normal life, because hello, monks giving her fake sisters and stuff. Also, if Buffy loves Angel so damn much, how can she possibly be happy without him?

Because you can get over love. Angel knows that. He knows you might not ever stop loving someone, but he knows it's possible to tuck that love away and go on with your life. And that's what Buffy does. She was loved Riley, and I'd say she was more often happy than she was with Angel. Does that mean she stopped loving Angel? No, I don't think so. Does that mean that if Angel found a way for them to be together, she wouldn't drop Riley and come running? Hell yeah it does.

First off, Angel wouldn't want her to. As much as he wanted her, he wanted her to have a normal life more. He loved her that much and that unselfishly. Second, if Angel did want her in those circumstances, Buffy'd flip her shit. No way she'd stand for him leaving her then wanting her back once she was happy with someone else. However, if her love for Angel were Romeo and Juliet, fairytale, or 'just a first love' I maintain that if Angel said he did want her (which, again, he wouldn't) she'd pull a "I try not to love you but can't stop", ditch Riley, have a torrid affair with Angel, and break up with him in six months because loves like that just don't last. Buffy's more mature than that; Angel's more mature than that; Buffy's love for Angel is more mature than that.

But she does still love Angel. In "Forever" (BtVS 5x17), he tells her he'll stay as long as she wants, and she says "How's forever? Does forever work for you?" Although she knows Angel won't stay, the desire in her question is sincere. She continues loving him right up through the end; if he was just an ex, she wouldn't see him in S6; if she no longer cared, she wouldn't kiss him or tell him she sometimes dreams of being with him in "Chosen" (BtVS 7x22). I'm not sure how anyone could claim she didn't still love him except to say she's not with him. But what I'm saying is it's not about loving Angel "enough" to want to run off with him, or even be with him. It's about loving Angel in a way that's grown up and real, in a way that's grown-up and real enough to allow them to be happy with other people and do the right thing even if it hurts the other or means they can't be together. It's about loving Angel in a way that isn't going to go away no matter who else she loves or what else she does, because it is grown up and real--enough so to sustain any change, any situation or separation. (Now go read [livejournal.com profile] a2zmom's fic Fairytale of New York. Which is actually the last in a trilogy, beginning with Guilt Trembling Spoke My Doom.)

3. He age. Both one and two deal with the idea of Buffy getting a chance to develop and consider her options, and I'm using this idea as an umbrella for all of that and more. The general idea in Angel's mind, imo, is that she's cookie dough (and, like many of us, I hate that analogy). He thinks she doesn't know what she wants yet. He steps back so he can give her choices and chances. If she finds happiness, good for her. If she doesn't, he's going to step right up one day, and be there.

As dismal as most of us agree the scene is, he's there in "Chosen," and there is the suggestion that Angel thinks they have a chance at being together. The real reason for this? a. to make B/A fans happy. b. so Buffy can say "no," thus highlighting a theme, the climax of which is Buffy in that last shot: independent and moving on. Still. While Angel's line: "I'm not getting any older" suggests that she can have all the time in the world, the line also suggests that if she wants him (in a romantic sense) she can come and get him.

Many of the same things are true in "The Girl In Question" (AtS 5x20)--right down to Angel's (and Spike's) desires being twisted to make a dramatic (poorly managed) point. But anyway, the suggestion there is still Angel wants her, has always wanted her, and thinks they may still have a chance some day.

Hopefully all that gets the point across that he never stopped loving her, either. She was doing all this growing and changing, but he was always there for her, and always loving her, and a part of him still had . . . perhaps not even hope, but a kind of awareness--of her, of possibilities with her.

4. He was doing that "tucking his love inside himself" thing . . . and moving on. Angel needed to grow just as much as Buffy, and whether he knew it or not, that's a big reason he left.

It's interesting to note that the first time Angel seems to say he's available to her (in the romantic sense; it's in "Chosen," see above) is directly after "Home", (AtS 4x22) in which Angel gives up Connor so that Connor can have a happy, normal life--which, we'll all note, in some ways parallels the reasons Angel left Buffy. What's also interesting is I think that Connor was Angel's taste of a happy, normal life as well. Connor doesn't physically make Angel human, but his existence is more of a guarantee of Angel's humanity than Angel's beating heart would be: Connor is Angel's true love.

Angel achieving a normal life for Connor is in some ways achieving humanity for Connor, a humanity Angel wanted for himself. And giving that to Connor, Angel achieves for Connor that happy, normal life. No, Angel doesn't feel as though he's been forgiven or is redeemed. And of course he hates the fact that his son's life has been so fucked up he had to had to have his memories wiped to be happy--to be happy without his real dad. But after that moment, which in so many ways is a parallel to Angel's promised reward and sanshu--Connor as Angel's humanity--Angel goes to Buffy. I just find the timing interesting. Maybe he got to a point in his own growth when he thought he could handle true love of a different kind honestly, fairly, and with the self-sacrifice Angel (and I) think love requires.

A very good wait to shut me down right now would be to say, but dude, a couple in a relationship should be able to grow together, to cause growth in each other--what's up with Buffy and Angel feeling the need to leave each other in order to do it? So let me clarify: I'm not arguing that B/A had the perfect love or were the perfect couple . . . and I'm especially not arguing they had the perfect love or were the perfect couple during either series. It was good for them that Angel left. And Buffy may've been ready for him in "Forever", but I don't think Angel was ready for her again. Vice versa for "Chosen." And you know, if they keep thinking they need to be ready (ok, ok, "baked") all they're going to end up doing is circling each other, hopelessly loving each other, always allowing for the possibility, the hope, but never quite seizing it.

But what I love about B/A is just that: they will always love each other and the hope is still always there. The way they love each other in later seasons is in no way, shape, or form anything childish, fairytale, or doomed to burn out. It just is, as simple and incontrovertible as the way a father loves a son. It's there no matter how much time passes, no matter what the other one does--even if one dies. In your most desperate hours you can call on it and it will be there for you, and if both are willing, it can spring back to life just as headlong and sexy and passionate and this is it as it's ever been before. Because the heart of it is just there, and it's a part of Angel and Buffy as much as Connor and Dawn are a part of them, too. I love the reassurance in that, and the promise, and the hope.

I love B/A because one day, Buffy will be sixty-five; her husband (whoever he was) died a year ago, and the light of her life are her grand-children. And she'll knock on Angel's door then, and maybe he'll be human and have had a go at life too, or maybe not . . . maybe his face will be as narrow and his hips as slim as that first day she knocked him down in an alley, when he was such a cocky sunuvabitch. And Angel will open the door and Buffy will kiss him--and it won't be the same. She'll have a grandma grip on him, and though her joints are still supple because she'll always be slaying, there'll be streaks of silver in her hair under all that blonde dye. And whether he looks fifty or the same old twenty-six, there'll be age in his eyes, friends he loved that she didn't know, battles he keeps losing but still keeps fighting.

But she'll still take him by the hand, and they'll still go have wild monkey sex. Or maybe they'll make tender love . . . all over the kitchen table. Or they've been apart for ten years, but I'm sure they're just down there just having tea and crackers. Angel will ask about her husband and maybe Buffy will cry a little. Then she'll smile and talk about Dawn and Xander and Willow. And she'll ask about him, and Angel's face will light up as he tells her about Connor, about his granddaughter. And Angel will eventually say, "I'm happy, Buffy. I was happy before . . . but I'm also happy you came."

And Buffy will say, "I was happy, too. But I'd also be happy to stay."

And Angel will say, "Forever? Is forever alright with you?"

And Buffy will say yes.


*

Okay, so that was really long. Thoughts? I'm aware not all of this makes sense. I wanted to say something all meaningful about B/A, but I have a tendency to gush when it comes to them. So, questions? Concerns? Yeah . . . Buts? Links to B/A meta? Links to manifestos of your own ship? Feel a need to gush about your ship, also? Here is fine or here. Because ship love is . . . hey! It's love.

[identity profile] blackcat333-99.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 01:38 am (UTC)(link)
Well, I was going to share some of my favorite lines from your post - but then realized I'd be quoting the entire thing back at you. So I'll just say: perfect summary that explains why I believe in B/A, have always believed in them, and always will. Love is sacrifice. Love is hope. Those two personify that to the nth degree.

Definitely adding this to my memories.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:07 am (UTC)(link)
Love is sacrifice. Love is hope. Those two personify that to the nth degree.

Wordy McWord supersized.

Definitely adding this to my memories.

Thanks, I'm flattered, and again, thanks for reccing!
lynnenne: (buffy by twilightbadgirl)

[personal profile] lynnenne 2006-02-03 03:05 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks for the pimp! :)
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:08 am (UTC)(link)
You're welcome! I pimp that fic any chance that I get. Not that it needs it, as everyone with a brain has to've read it already.

[identity profile] globalfruitbat.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 03:21 am (UTC)(link)
Wow. This made me cry. And I'm not a B/A shipper --only I completely am. If that makes sense? When I see them the way you do, I see it so well. It's like [livejournal.com profile] nwhepcat's Xander or [livejournal.com profile] eliade's Spander ... a different way of seeing the dynamic of the show. Thank you!
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:11 am (UTC)(link)
Makes perfect sense! I love a few ships, and many that I don't love, I understand and appreciate. When someone can throw the light of their love on those ships, I get all caught in the moment and love them too, and totally see how they work. And while that's a cheesy way of putting it, it's still true! Anyway, thanks bunches, though sorry for tears ;o)

[identity profile] coppersinger.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 06:41 am (UTC)(link)
I think this icon rather mirrors your oh so eloquent essay. (And I still think it's cute. *G*)

Here via Mary's 'go, read, comment' post, in case you wanted to know where the stranger's from. *g*

I admit, my B/A love has sort of... waned(?) the last while. Canon-wise I still consider them my OTP, probably still are overall, as well, but mostly I've come to realize that I'm more an OTC gal - hence not participating in your very cool 'shippy questionnaire.

That said, you captured so much of what I love(d) about Buffy and Angel and not only did you do it without bashing anyone (including either of them), you did it fairly impartially. In that I mean that both Buffy and Angel's weaknesses and strengths and that which they shared and gave up and fought for or didn't is pretty equally represented. I love that.

So thank you for the reminder of why I fell for them way back when, and why, even though I tend to read mostly Buffy/Other, they'll always have a rather large chunk of my heart. :p

ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:18 am (UTC)(link)
You're right, awesome icon.

I'm flattered and pleased you thought I managed to capture their ups and downs fairly. That's what I was going for, though there are still a lot of issues to be worked out about "why I think they work together post Chosen/NFA" that this doesn't really address.

And I understand what you mean about your B/A love waning. In the very beginning, I was all about the ship, but now I'm far more equal opportunity. I love all the characters (except Joyce. DIEJoyceDIE wait,youalreadydid *cough*. But not really.) and I like seeing them in a bunch of different ships . . . but B/A holds a special place in my heart, and sometimes I feel like a lot of the people who were all really big on B/A in the past have moved on, so the ship love isn't like it used to be, so for a while I've just been feeling the need to . . . pour out with it.

Long story short: thanks! Glad you enjoyed reading it.

[identity profile] angelryka.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 08:15 am (UTC)(link)
Here via [livejournal.com profile] blackcat333_99

Beautiful. I couldn't agree more. I'm so putting this in my memories.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:18 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks! I'm flattered you liked it.
ext_7254: (pic#)

No way can argue with this...

[identity profile] ravenwings-7.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 09:30 pm (UTC)(link)
...even if I am a Spuffy shipper with a soft spot for Angdelia. I'm glad you were able to articulate the B/A relationship so eloquently, because so few people seem to really get it. When all is said and done, Buffy and Angel will probably end up riding off into separate sunsets (or moonrises, as the case may be) with other people, but they'll still love each other. Always. Even if they don't want to, even if Buffy and the Immortal are partying way in Rome while Angel is stuck in LA with Spike (poor Spike. And we thought that S6 Spuffy was violent).
Or Angel, Buffy and Spike will form a heroic and prophecy-laden threesome amonst the wreckage of LA, with an acronym that describes the defining (or maybe defined) feature of all three: A/B/S! ;)

Yes, I know I tend work far too hard for the sake of punning. But I had to.
ext_7189: (lissla)

Re: No way can argue with this...

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:28 am (UTC)(link)
YOU WIN THE INTERNETS! Bwah! Can't believe I hadn't thought of that before.

I'm glad you were able to articulate the B/A relationship so eloquently, because so few people seem to really get it.

I'd say a lot of B/Aers get it, but many of us (myself included) succumb to squee-induced tongue-tiedness when we think about it. Or when we look at Angel's thighs. Or when we look at Buffy's . . .wha?

Angel is stuck in LA with Spike (poor Spike.

Don't feel too sorry for him. That's great sex those boys're having!

Or Angel, Buffy and Spike will form a heroic and prophecy-laden threesome amonst the wreckage of LA

If I'm allowed to have an OT3 as well as an OTP, it's definitely CHESTS A/B/S. Okay, and sometimes B/A/F (but it's much less cool because it loses at pun-fu). I adore B/A. I love A/S. I can see B/S. Why not smoosh them?

I'm glad this worked for you, even if it's not your ship. I think feelin' the love for other ships and trying to understand them and trying to understand where other fans who like them are coming from is a very important thing. Thanks for swingin' by!

[identity profile] violaclaire.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 10:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, my. Yes. Very much so. Um. Coherency will return momentarily.

Lovers who can't live without each other. *Points to the part where Buffy lives after she kills Angel and the part where Angel goes on existing after Buffy dies.*

I think this is my favorite part (although it's a close call between that and every other word in the essay). Because, yeah. They were hopelessly naive and can't-think-straight-in-love, sure, but they weren't the only thing in the world for each other. If they were, they wouldn't, imo, be the heroes they are.

And now I have to scribble down some thoughts for your other post.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:31 am (UTC)(link)
although it's a close call between that and every other word in the essay

Ha! Thank you!

but they weren't the only thing in the world for each other. If they were, they wouldn't, imo, be the heroes they are.

Exactly. Also, their love wouldn't be as real--I don't think it could last if it were any other way.

Thanks again, and I'm glad you shared the love in the other post. It's so nice to have so much B/A love floating around.

[identity profile] scribesds.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:31 pm (UTC)(link)
This was beautiful, a fascinating look at the whole B/A dynamic, and reminding me of why I love this couple so much.

Could I have it for my B/A site, Blood Roses, (http://roses.darkstarfic.com/) please? It's perfect.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:31 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you!

I'd love to have it archived. I'm so flattered--thanks again!

B/A Thingy

(Anonymous) 2006-02-04 02:23 am (UTC)(link)
I fully agree with you. Its the best summary that i have read
of BA together ever.I will be keeping this as a reminder of what love is and not.Thank u so much.
ext_7189: (lissla)

Re: B/A Thingy

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:32 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you too, whoever you are!
ext_7299: (B/A)

[identity profile] redbrickrose.livejournal.com 2006-02-04 08:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes. *friends*
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:33 am (UTC)(link)
yay! *friends back*

[identity profile] dlgood.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 09:06 pm (UTC)(link)
So you know, this is really awesome meta. At some point, I will give some comments later...
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-06 06:03 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you! And I hope you do, because your thoughts are always interesting.
my_daroga: Peter O'Toole in Lawrence of Arabia (lawrence)

[personal profile] my_daroga 2006-02-06 05:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Just a quickie to mention that I enjoyed reading this, despite my non-B/A sentiments. You know all about that already, but that's not the point. The *point* is that I love that we can all have these different, yet totally rational (well, aside from the obsessive) points of view about these characters. Like, say, real life! Within our own relationships, within our 'ships, we see our OTP as the One True way it can be. But it isn't; I married one guy and I love him dearly and we're perfect; but that doesn't mean there couldn't have been another person I'd be happy with. Someone could have 'shipped me with someone else pretty easily.

I'm glad we have these options in our fanlives. And I'm glad I can respect your pov on this, recognize the "rightness" of your points, without sharing your opinion.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-07 12:12 am (UTC)(link)
I'm glad we have these options in our fanlives. And I'm glad I can respect your pov on this, recognize the "rightness" of your points, without sharing your opinion.

Yay, exactly, I'm glad too. This is what I was hoping for, and it makes me all warm and fuzzy that you understood and took the time to read etc. I love knowing what people think about their ships. I love knowing what people think about my ship. I love expressing what I think about my ship, and the idea that sometimes people seem to think these things are somehow mutually exclusive is beyond me. Huzzah for shipper love!

Someone could have 'shipped me with someone else pretty easily.

ZOMG, where's the RPF??? :o)

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[identity profile] lirm35m.livejournal.com 2006-02-07 01:49 am (UTC)(link)
So, anyway, this is days later, but I whole heartedly agree with 99.98% of this post, especially #1 & 2 and I'm so glad you put this out there because somehow, my f-list is full of B/A haters (not that it's my main ship, in fact, I'm mostly a slash reader, so I'd rather see Angel with Spike or with both Spike AND Buffy -though I just say NO to spuffy...*shudders*- but I do have a very special place in my heart for B/A shippyness) and I'm so sick of defending their relationship to people who can't see it for anything other than pervy squickness! Anyway, Amen, sister, you tell 'em, *g*
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-07 05:31 am (UTC)(link)
I think it's funny other people see it as something pervy or squicky. I guess it's the age difference, but Buffy isn't that much older when she sleeps with Riley or Spike. Then again, a year or two at that age makes all the difference. The thing is, he left her because he was too young. And a lot of B/Aers ship the way we do because we think they could be happy together some time in the future, not necessarily during when the series take place--some time when they're both old enough.

But I shouldn't talk, because I find the much!older!dude/younger!innocent!virgin aspect really really hot.

I love B/A the best, but I love A/S as well. And I have respect for Spuffy. There are certain things in it that I don't like or don't agree with, but I like other aspects and respect still others, and respect and appreciate (and am interested in!) the opinions of those who ship B/S. I wish there wasn't so much animosity for B/A and B/S (and slash, and any other ship, for that matter). They both have such interesting things to offer fandom.

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[identity profile] romanyg.livejournal.com 2006-02-07 11:41 pm (UTC)(link)
*stumbles in late*

I have to say that B/A grew on me, took me by surprise. Before fandom, I would have classified myself as a Spuffy--if I had known what the word meant. But when I entered fandom, I began to see the underlying depth there. One thing that writing and pondering A/S has taught me is that Buffy is important--and that she is loved.

Thank you for this.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-09 06:18 am (UTC)(link)
Hey, thanks for stopping by! So glad you did.

I know what you mean. I feel the same way about Spuffy, actually. I rather liked it when watching the shows, actually (to my own surprise) but it wasn't until fandom that I thought about some of the more interesting aspects of their relationship.

And I fell in love with A/S because of Buffy. I'd read slash before this fandom and just didn't think too much of it. But I read this one piece in which Angel and Spike had (ok, almost had) grief sex (ok, grief fucking) because Buffy had just died and it killed me ded. After that, I felt like I got it...took me a while to actually appreciate A/S itself without the Buffy-ghost there, actually.

Thanks again for reading.

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[identity profile] 43100.livejournal.com 2006-02-10 06:48 am (UTC)(link)
This is just *excellent*. If ever there was a TV series where Buffy and Angel happened to get together, and maybe there can be some, uh, Xander/Faith - I'd so piss my pants and die. My favorite 'ships are always the What-If's, and this is the ONLY canon ship that has ever reached my top 3 ships.

Mind if I friend?
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-11 06:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm glad you liked it!

My favorite 'ships are always the What-If's, and this is the ONLY canon ship

That's so interesting. I mean, I wonder if other people have a tendency to ship canon, or not? I have a tendency to identify with and root for the heroes. But my BFF has a tendency to like/identify with the supporting characters/sidekicks more. I'd say I have a tendency to ship canon, but there are two major fandoms in which I don't, so I don't know. Anyway, I'm glad you like B/A :o)

Again, so glad you did the questions of Xander/Faith. It's such an interesting pairing and you rarely see people talk about it.

And of course I don't mind if you friend; I friended back!
seraphcelene: (PantyFan (with ruffles) by tkp)

[personal profile] seraphcelene 2007-04-05 09:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!

What more is there to say. I can't believe it took me this long to read this. Wow. Beautifully eloquent. I love that you work with the adult, this is real love and not the fairy tale, this is gonna be forever love that everyone in the world seems to think is for real. Loving someone inspite of their flaws and understanding that loving someone doesn't always mean *being* with someone and the truth in the old adage "if you love something let it go".

It's all there and I have nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation a whole year later except to cheer and say Huzzah!
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2007-04-07 08:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Hee! You clicked on my tabby thingies! Thank you so much for being interested. I heart you too!

So many people say B/A is just young love, getting swept up--and, well, yeah, it totally is. But the whole reason that kind of love rings as "false" is it doesn't last when the trials come. But Buffy's and Angel's does, and beyond, and it speaks to me of the idea of the fact that true love does exist, and that's it's worth putting your faith in it, because yeah, you might never get the fairytale ending the way it began, but having it is so much more fulfilling than never having loved at all. Which is trite and cliche and totally my belief. *waves B/A pom poms*

[identity profile] diachrony.livejournal.com 2007-05-24 04:56 am (UTC)(link)
Gosh.

[livejournal.com profile] seraphcelene is so right. You have a very shiny brain.

I read your essay (twice) and the comments to see what you said there. I'm very impressed. Aw, you made me feel the B/A love and go all sniffly.

I mean, I watched the show from the beginning, and wasn't involved in fandom in the slightest until after S6, so I came upon Buffy and Angel's relationship unadulterated by preconceived ideas, which means yeah ... you take me back, and you make me feel all that again, and it's so bittersweet.

I'm not one who believed it was fairytale, and (in spite of being mainly a Spuffy shipper, I'm not so much a "shipper" type as a lover of all the characters) I always believed Buffy and Angel did love each other, and that love was deep and real and ever present and that they would always, always be there to help and support the other when called on, whether or not they were a couple, and whether or not they were regularly involved in each other's lives.

They could be apart and incommunicado for years and yet the moment one of them contacted the other for assistance, that one would be there for them no questions asked. That's how I see Angel and Buffy, whether they're romantically involved or not. They are, in the deepest sense, family to each other. A connection that's always there and will never be broken. This would be true even if they each found other, genuine loves. Loving others wouldn't break their bond ... even if they never did become romantically involved ever again.

Tch! I started to get very long-windy and go off on a sort of tangent, so I'm cutting a paragraph.

But I just love what you said here. And I always felt this was true of Buffy (and as you point out, Angel as well) ~ they will do what is right even if it hurts them personally. They're not selfish. They give up personal happiness to save the world. The moment where Buffy sent Angel to hell to save the world from Acathla ... knowing he was Angel, not Angelus ... was one of the most affecting moments I've seen on TV. (Major props to SMG.) There was no question that she loved him. It still had to be done.

The way Buffy handled that was incredibly heroic ... my heart breaks for her again thinking of it. There's nothing childish there.

I'm starting to babble so I should shut up.

But yeah to your post, and I'm glad I read it.

ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2007-07-15 03:22 am (UTC)(link)
Just realized I never replied to you here! Which is a shame, because I wanted to let you know how happy it makes me whenever I can make someone feel for this pairing. To me what they have is essential to who these characters are, and a beautiful thing in life. Whether you actively "ship" them or not, I think it's important to . . . respect it. And sometimes people don't and I tried not to complain about that in the essay or the comments, but it can be so frustrating.

They are, in the deepest sense, family to each other.

This is the point I was really trying to make, I think. Their love is/was romantic, yes. And Spike is right, they'll never be friends. But they will always be there for one another.

they will do what is right even if it hurts them personally.

That speaks to me of the most adult kind of love there is, which is why it confuses me when people say B/A is childish.

Thanks for reading this and replying, and for babbling. Like I said, it's so nice for people to appreciate this pairing. I guess I love it so much, I want other people to see the value in it! Thanks :o)
elisi: Edwin holding a tiny snowman (It was... a hello by kathyh)

[personal profile] elisi 2007-06-05 10:46 am (UTC)(link)
This? Is fascinating. In case you didn't know, I've never had a B/A shipper on my flist before. It's a strange feeling. (That said, I have a S/X shipper, and S/X is a ship I *cannot* read. So that's even more of an anomaly.)

But - what was I going to say? Um... that I'm a Spuffy shipper, through and through. And yet I think I can put my support behind most of the stuff you've written here. I could go into the reasons I prefer S/B, but there's really no point - in the end it comes down to what sort of story/relationship you like, and that is of course totally subjective. But I can definitely appreciate B/A - it's a beautiful, beautiful ship. (I stopped watching Buffy for a year after Becoming, because it was so angsty.)

Actually, if you don't mind some self-pimping, you might be interested in a (short) fic I once wrote: It was...a hello. I wanted to explore the dynamics between the couples and Buffy's mindset, so I re-wrote bits of 'Chosen' in an attempt to do that. (Not a 'this-is-how-is-should-have-gone' fic. I love canon.) I'd love to know your thoughts! /shameless

Oh and I have also written S/B/A fic (this one is 30000 words though!) - and dude the B/A is shiny and fun to play with! In the end I think it comes down to loving Spuffy, but not wanting Angel left out. (And loving Spangel, but not wanting Buffy left out.) So I went for the OT3 instead and can now happily embrace all three ships. :)
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2007-06-06 04:20 am (UTC)(link)
I understand what you mean. I started out exclusively in a B/A corner of fandom. First time I got a Cordelia/Angel shipper on my list it was a distinctly strange feeling. As you say, I have plenty of "logical" reasons I think B/A is cool, but in the end it comes down to what I prefer and there's no right or wrong answer. And that feels weird because you end up seeing things differently and drawing different conclusions than others on your flist who are equally intelligent and reasonable and respectful of the shows you both love.

B/A is my OTP, but I like lots of ships. Most of those I don't like, I respect, and will read if written well. (For instance, I'll read any Spuffy written by [livejournal.com profile] stultiloquentia. And like you, I don't like S/X, but I will loudly and often recommend Sunday Morning Coming Down to you and all others like us who don't like S/X. Because it's an S/X that explains why it's S/X, and each of the characters we all know and love are perfectly, beautifully, and entertainingly drawn.)

Thanks very much for self pimping! I like to read the fics of people on my flist but I am very bad at trying to choose how to dive in. I like to babied. Hopefully I'll get to these--I'd say definitely because I really want to but I'm notoriously unreliable sometimes.

And thanks for reading this. It warms me down to the cockles of my heart when people don't let something like a ship prevent them from insightful conversation.

[identity profile] thatotherperv.livejournal.com 2007-06-05 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
damn. that is one hell of a manifesto for a ship that I no longer think about that often.

glad someone pointed me this way. I nodded so often my head wobbled off.
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2007-06-06 04:04 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks a lot. It seems like most people don't think about B/A that often any more, so it's nice when I can remind someone. :o)
ext_6886: I made this! (BnA - OTP Forever)

[identity profile] theantijoss.livejournal.com 2007-07-15 02:48 am (UTC)(link)
I have absolutely no idea how I managed to miss this. I don't think I was around when you posted it, but GAH! I just happened to stumble in by aimlessly following del.icio.us links, and... well, here I am.

YOU OWE ME TISSUE! So beautifully said. I never get sick of hearing well-reasoned discourse about my OTP. I'm incapable of it, and hardly anybody else even bothers. Thank you!
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2007-07-15 03:16 am (UTC)(link)
*gives tissue*

It's pretty cool to have such a mainstay of B/Adom come here and say nice things, so, thanks back!

I, too, love reading meta on B/A, and have noticed also that there seems to be a dearth of it. I read something you wrote on it a while back, actually, and several other things, but to me there's always more to be said. There's a great depth to the pairing and I think some people overlook that.

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[identity profile] thatotherperv.livejournal.com 2007-09-29 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
hey there. I'm trying to build a buffyverse meta library / archive, and I really enjoyed this as a B/A manifesto. I was wondering if I could have it for the archive.

[identity profile] zibbycomix.livejournal.com 2008-09-25 10:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, I don't even watch Buffy and I don't know what you're talking about... but you've converted me to B/A. So true. =)

[identity profile] vampire-cookies.livejournal.com 2009-01-13 11:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Forgive the resurrection of an older post of yours, but I figured this was as good a place to gush as any. *gush*

I had the opportunity to read my_daroga's sparkling love-fest to you on her LJ this morning, and was very tickled over the contents of her post. I much admired the Chaney!vase you made for her, and laughed myself stooped over your Twilight comic. Bella the blathering guppy = COMEDY GOLD.

So I decided to peek around your LJ a little to see what other sekrit treasures of happiness I might find. Weirdly enough, I stumbled across this extra-fancy essay about B/A shippyness, and spent a goodly amount of company time reading and loving all over it. And now allz I can say is hooray for me for friending you. This was awesomeness x 3 gazillion.

True story: I'm not a hardcore fan of B:TVS. I was initially forced to endure it (almost completely against my will) as my ex was an absolute slut for the show. A TV series about Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Who the sam-hill green-lit THAT crap? And where was Kristy Swanson, dammit!?! I thought the movie had said all that there needed to be said, so I refused to succumb to the cheese of it all. But if anything sold me on its delicious awesomeness from day one, it was the glorious, gut-wrenching tragedy of a romance between Buffy and the ultra hot vampire dood. Boy, did they ever snare me with that crack-- hook, line, and sinker. If there's one thing that I'm an incorrigible shlut for, its a love story steeped in tragedy, passion, and incomprehensible pain. Good good times.

B/A was just this beautiful little story that examined the whole concept of love, or (more specifically) the reality of what it is and just what it requires of a person. A bit more melodramatic than what most folks endure, I grant you, but there were and are truths there that are just poignant and relevant enough to be pretty damn brilliant. It was always the perfect blend of joy and misery for me, watching those two. I loved them when things seemed to be roses, and I loved them even more when everything fell apart. Reading your thoughts about what made it all so beautiful reminds me why, to this day, Buffy and Angel will forever make my list of the greatest couples in the history of fiction, even if I don't claim to be a big Buffy fan. (Must admit, I lost interest in the show after Angel left.)

To be honest, I didn't think there were that many B/A fans around anymore, so it was kind of a delightful surprise to find someone who had a lot of love for the first (and greatest) romance the show ever offered. Thank you muchly for reminding me why this pairing tugged at my heart so much, and thank you for putting it all so succinctly! I'm off to dive into your B/A fics till my work-day is done. HUZZAH!

*tips hat*
ext_7189: (Default)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2009-01-14 03:35 am (UTC)(link)
Ha ha ha a B/A fan that came from my_daroga. Not, uh, of her body. But anyway: I totally feel like I've scored! (I live in an Angel-hating household.)

K says you're awesome and I trust her implicitly and also yay B/A, so I friended you back!

Glad you liked the Twilight comic. It was so fun to make.

If you get caught up in the B/A ficcage--or find mine boring, which is entirely possible!--and want more, [livejournal.com profile] chrisleeoctaves is your main resource. She runs an archive of hand-selected fic, and has great taste. She runs a marathon every November which has a new B/A fic every day. B/A fans are still around, we just don't talk about it as much as we used to. This ship holds a really, really special place in my heart.

I think, in all, that BtVS was a really unfortunate name for the show. I mean, maybe that wasn't all that prejudiced you against it, but that was certainly the case for me. I had a gazillion people telling me it was a great show, and I just thought it sounded so stupid. I didn't realize the "Buffy" part was meant to be ironic. Even if I had, I would've thought it was a stupid joke (while now I think it's awesome, though I still wish it had been named something different).

Anywho, nice to meet you!

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