lettered: (Default)
It's Lion Turtles all the way down ([personal profile] lettered) wrote2006-02-01 07:22 am

B/A Thingy

A rant, a squee, and an essay walked into a bar and produced this meta-cle miracle.

I love B/A because Angel falls in empathy with Buffy at first sight. Which is easy, because a Slayer getting Called is like Angel getting a soul because they both are 1. the only ones, 2. suddenly made aware of realities they'd rather not face, 3. given to feel a certain obligation.

It's a "hey, you're not the only one with problems, suck it up and try to fix it" kind of thing. But also, Buffy is the first human with whom Angel can identify in over two centuries. It's that connection, when he has held himself so separate from all that's granted humans, which allows him to think he can help humans, allows him to hope.

Now, Angel may have been able to identify with any Slayer being Called, but Buffy is unique among Slayers. Her heroism, her fight for right, her love of friends and family, her complete inability to give up even when she wants to--being a Slayer brings that out in her, but that's not inherent Slayer stuff (look at Faith). That's Buffy. Angel fucking loves that about Buffy. He wants to be just like her (which [livejournal.com profile] germaine_pet says beautifully in Vicarious. Fantastic B/A fic, even though it's A/S).

Also, while the girl/Slayer conflict is appealing to Angel because he can identify with it, the "normal girl" Buffy wants to be is unique to Buffy, not being a Slayer--even the nature of that conflict and how she deals with it is Buffy herself, not her role. He likes that she puns her enemies--her sense of humor. He likes that she slays in mini-skirts--her independence, unwillingness to simply conform to her situation (and her fashion sense. And her hot little body). He likes the way she'll dwell on not getting to go shopping when she's in danger of apocalypse every other day. He likes that she'll tell him so, that she'll be vulnerable to him, and that he feels like he can actually be there for her.

It's that that draws her to him in return. Yes, their roles as Slayer and vampire with a soul are suited to each other: Angel is the only one who is 1. intimately acquainted with the world she lives in, 2. not worrisomely mortal, and 3. not trying to kill her. That makes Buffy feel safe and comfortable with him in a way she can't with any other person (see "Never Kill A Boy On A First Date", BtVS 1x05). But it's also Angel's personality that makes Buffy feel safe and comfortable. He listens. He offers his insights. He doesn't push her to agree with those insights. He doesn't push her to do anything. He doesn't stand in her way unless her decisions directly affect him. He lets her take charge, and she likes that.

Buffy likes his humor. She likes that he can help her with history and French. She likes that she feels like she could wait forever to have sex with him and he'd be just fine with that (as long as there was lots of making out). I love B/A because Buffy thinks that she can have something normal with Angel, precisely because Angel is the most not normal thing out there, and that's just twisted.

I love B/A because Angel thinks what he can have something normal with Buffy as well, and that's just fucking naive. Oh, he knows it's not a fairytale. He tells Buffy so, and she knows it's not as well ("Reptile Boy", BtVS 2x05). I used to wonder at "fairytale" girls-- young women have had to have heard and read and seen enough these days to know that "love" isn't always happy and safe and forever. And then I fell in love. And I don't know about y'all, but for me, it didn't matter what I knew. I knew I was being stupid and careless and hopelessly optimistic and naive. But I was ready to be all of that, and risk my heart, on the idea that this love actually was the fairytale.

Oh, please. Six months later it's over and I am never talking about it on my lj again. But it's happened to the best of us, that this is it feeling, and I daresay it happened for most of us. It's predictable, common, and cliche. What's tritest about it is you think it's unique; you think you're the only one who's felt that way, the only one for whom it will all work out, and at the same time, you know every other person falling in love for the first time has felt that way as well. Buffy and Angel knew it wasn't a fairytale, but they couldn't help feeling that way anyway. "I love you. I try not to, but I can't stop." ("Innocence", BtVS 2x14). I love B/A because it's exactly what you feel when you fall in love.

I also love B/A because it's cheesy. Come on, the Claddagh rings? I don't care if it's an old Irish tradition or whatever, he slipped that ring on her finger and I kept thinking: are you in high school? And I love that. I love that he keeps movies he went to with her's ticket stubs (so stolen from [livejournal.com profile] kita0610's My Angel), and that she wears his jacket sometimes just to smell him. They are a dead, several centuries old murderer and a cheerleader turned world savior, and they behave like those teenagers from highschool who wore bracelets they'd made for each other and wouldn't stop snogging in the practice rooms.

You're saying, hey wait. This is just why I don't love B/A. Cheesy and trite may be your cuppa but it ain't mine, honey, and I want me my angst love. Obviously, I haven't gotten to the part where he goes evil and her heart breaks and he'll probably never be able to forgive himself for making love to the woman he loves and she kills him. Because yeah, that part. The part where she shoves a sword in his chest.

A lot of people say B/A is "fairytale" and Romeo and Juliet. Okay, for one thing, those two terms are mutuall exclusive. Fairytales end happy and Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy. Anyway, I assume most of the time when people say Romeo and Juliet they don't necessarily mean the actual story or the play, but more the idea of "dramatic tragic doomed romance"--you know, lovers who can't live without each other, lovers who would do anything to be together.

Lovers who can't live without each other. *Points to the part where Buffy lives after she kills Angel and the part where Angel goes on existing after Buffy dies.*

Lovers who would do anything to be together. Dude. Sword.-->Angel's (very yummy) chest. Remember?

Truth is, Buffy cared more about saving the world than she did Angel (*collective gasp*). Okay, you could burst my bubble and claim, Well, if she didn't save the world, she couldn't be with Angel anyway, so it was more of a Catch-22 than Buffy stating very firmly (with a sword!) that Angel was not the be-all and end-all of her existence. True. But I'm telling you right now, Buffy wasn't very sensibly reasoning out the fact that she was screwed either way. All she was thinking was, "I have to do this. I have to do this. Nothing else matters--not even Angel. I have to do this." And even before she knew he was going to end the world with Acathla, Buffy had decided to kill Angelus, and I personally believe she would've done it. Her friends and family's safety was more important than the chance that she could get Angel back.

When people talk about B/A as "just a first love", I assume the dismissiveness comes from that naivete that comes with first love (or, for some people, love as it always is at its inception; I have a nasty premonition it'll always be that way for me) I described earlier. Yeah. That part with the sword? It's not a "risk it all for love" moment, not a "I try not to love you but I can't help it" moment, not a "I'm young, naive and stupid and yet I think my love will overcome all obstacles" moment. It's a "I love you but love ain't gonna overcome this. Go to hell. Bye!" moment. It's the moment at which the fairytale ends and Juliet would've crapped her pants. It's the moment at which, if B/A was "just a first love", their love fails. It fails, but it continues afterwards, which makes it not "just a first love". Take the first three words off that quote and you have it. It's love.

I love B/A for that. I love B/A because both of them would rather do what they percieve as the "right" thing than be together. It doesn't mean they love each other any less, but it does mean they're a lot more mature about it than fairytales and that Juliet chick. I'd say Buffy's love for Angel grows beyond that when she kills him. And Angel's love grows beyond that when he realizes he has to leave her.

Angel leaves, in the end, because he got his own show "for her own good." That's a sticky issue, and why some people might disagree with me when I say Angel doesn't push her or stand in her way and lets her take charge. He takes a decision that she thinks should have been both of theirs and makes it his, because he sees himself as the more responsible, knowledgeable one, which in a way is insulting to Buffy. But let me say three things: 1. he was right. 2. she eventually figured out he was right, and 3. I personally wish someone in my life had acted his age, like the more mature, more experienced person in the relationship, and left me so decisively I couldn't argue it. It would've broken my heart, but things would've worked better in the end.

Imo, he left her for a number of reasons (I love me my lists). 1. The curse. Buffy claimed it didn't matter to her that she couldn't make love to Angel. Now, she might've been right, but she had very little sexual experience, a woman's "sexual peak" is supposed to be age 35 (according to . . . don't know where I found that out), and seasons 4-6 show Buffy exploring various aspects of her sexuality. I have difficulty believing she actually knew what she was giving up. Angel knew, and he wanted to give her the chance to do the exploration she took so much advantage of after he left.

2. He wanted her to have happy, normal life. Doesn't sound like the brightest thing ever, as Buffy is a. slated to die soon, and b. not ever going to have a normal life, because hello, monks giving her fake sisters and stuff. Also, if Buffy loves Angel so damn much, how can she possibly be happy without him?

Because you can get over love. Angel knows that. He knows you might not ever stop loving someone, but he knows it's possible to tuck that love away and go on with your life. And that's what Buffy does. She was loved Riley, and I'd say she was more often happy than she was with Angel. Does that mean she stopped loving Angel? No, I don't think so. Does that mean that if Angel found a way for them to be together, she wouldn't drop Riley and come running? Hell yeah it does.

First off, Angel wouldn't want her to. As much as he wanted her, he wanted her to have a normal life more. He loved her that much and that unselfishly. Second, if Angel did want her in those circumstances, Buffy'd flip her shit. No way she'd stand for him leaving her then wanting her back once she was happy with someone else. However, if her love for Angel were Romeo and Juliet, fairytale, or 'just a first love' I maintain that if Angel said he did want her (which, again, he wouldn't) she'd pull a "I try not to love you but can't stop", ditch Riley, have a torrid affair with Angel, and break up with him in six months because loves like that just don't last. Buffy's more mature than that; Angel's more mature than that; Buffy's love for Angel is more mature than that.

But she does still love Angel. In "Forever" (BtVS 5x17), he tells her he'll stay as long as she wants, and she says "How's forever? Does forever work for you?" Although she knows Angel won't stay, the desire in her question is sincere. She continues loving him right up through the end; if he was just an ex, she wouldn't see him in S6; if she no longer cared, she wouldn't kiss him or tell him she sometimes dreams of being with him in "Chosen" (BtVS 7x22). I'm not sure how anyone could claim she didn't still love him except to say she's not with him. But what I'm saying is it's not about loving Angel "enough" to want to run off with him, or even be with him. It's about loving Angel in a way that's grown up and real, in a way that's grown-up and real enough to allow them to be happy with other people and do the right thing even if it hurts the other or means they can't be together. It's about loving Angel in a way that isn't going to go away no matter who else she loves or what else she does, because it is grown up and real--enough so to sustain any change, any situation or separation. (Now go read [livejournal.com profile] a2zmom's fic Fairytale of New York. Which is actually the last in a trilogy, beginning with Guilt Trembling Spoke My Doom.)

3. He age. Both one and two deal with the idea of Buffy getting a chance to develop and consider her options, and I'm using this idea as an umbrella for all of that and more. The general idea in Angel's mind, imo, is that she's cookie dough (and, like many of us, I hate that analogy). He thinks she doesn't know what she wants yet. He steps back so he can give her choices and chances. If she finds happiness, good for her. If she doesn't, he's going to step right up one day, and be there.

As dismal as most of us agree the scene is, he's there in "Chosen," and there is the suggestion that Angel thinks they have a chance at being together. The real reason for this? a. to make B/A fans happy. b. so Buffy can say "no," thus highlighting a theme, the climax of which is Buffy in that last shot: independent and moving on. Still. While Angel's line: "I'm not getting any older" suggests that she can have all the time in the world, the line also suggests that if she wants him (in a romantic sense) she can come and get him.

Many of the same things are true in "The Girl In Question" (AtS 5x20)--right down to Angel's (and Spike's) desires being twisted to make a dramatic (poorly managed) point. But anyway, the suggestion there is still Angel wants her, has always wanted her, and thinks they may still have a chance some day.

Hopefully all that gets the point across that he never stopped loving her, either. She was doing all this growing and changing, but he was always there for her, and always loving her, and a part of him still had . . . perhaps not even hope, but a kind of awareness--of her, of possibilities with her.

4. He was doing that "tucking his love inside himself" thing . . . and moving on. Angel needed to grow just as much as Buffy, and whether he knew it or not, that's a big reason he left.

It's interesting to note that the first time Angel seems to say he's available to her (in the romantic sense; it's in "Chosen," see above) is directly after "Home", (AtS 4x22) in which Angel gives up Connor so that Connor can have a happy, normal life--which, we'll all note, in some ways parallels the reasons Angel left Buffy. What's also interesting is I think that Connor was Angel's taste of a happy, normal life as well. Connor doesn't physically make Angel human, but his existence is more of a guarantee of Angel's humanity than Angel's beating heart would be: Connor is Angel's true love.

Angel achieving a normal life for Connor is in some ways achieving humanity for Connor, a humanity Angel wanted for himself. And giving that to Connor, Angel achieves for Connor that happy, normal life. No, Angel doesn't feel as though he's been forgiven or is redeemed. And of course he hates the fact that his son's life has been so fucked up he had to had to have his memories wiped to be happy--to be happy without his real dad. But after that moment, which in so many ways is a parallel to Angel's promised reward and sanshu--Connor as Angel's humanity--Angel goes to Buffy. I just find the timing interesting. Maybe he got to a point in his own growth when he thought he could handle true love of a different kind honestly, fairly, and with the self-sacrifice Angel (and I) think love requires.

A very good wait to shut me down right now would be to say, but dude, a couple in a relationship should be able to grow together, to cause growth in each other--what's up with Buffy and Angel feeling the need to leave each other in order to do it? So let me clarify: I'm not arguing that B/A had the perfect love or were the perfect couple . . . and I'm especially not arguing they had the perfect love or were the perfect couple during either series. It was good for them that Angel left. And Buffy may've been ready for him in "Forever", but I don't think Angel was ready for her again. Vice versa for "Chosen." And you know, if they keep thinking they need to be ready (ok, ok, "baked") all they're going to end up doing is circling each other, hopelessly loving each other, always allowing for the possibility, the hope, but never quite seizing it.

But what I love about B/A is just that: they will always love each other and the hope is still always there. The way they love each other in later seasons is in no way, shape, or form anything childish, fairytale, or doomed to burn out. It just is, as simple and incontrovertible as the way a father loves a son. It's there no matter how much time passes, no matter what the other one does--even if one dies. In your most desperate hours you can call on it and it will be there for you, and if both are willing, it can spring back to life just as headlong and sexy and passionate and this is it as it's ever been before. Because the heart of it is just there, and it's a part of Angel and Buffy as much as Connor and Dawn are a part of them, too. I love the reassurance in that, and the promise, and the hope.

I love B/A because one day, Buffy will be sixty-five; her husband (whoever he was) died a year ago, and the light of her life are her grand-children. And she'll knock on Angel's door then, and maybe he'll be human and have had a go at life too, or maybe not . . . maybe his face will be as narrow and his hips as slim as that first day she knocked him down in an alley, when he was such a cocky sunuvabitch. And Angel will open the door and Buffy will kiss him--and it won't be the same. She'll have a grandma grip on him, and though her joints are still supple because she'll always be slaying, there'll be streaks of silver in her hair under all that blonde dye. And whether he looks fifty or the same old twenty-six, there'll be age in his eyes, friends he loved that she didn't know, battles he keeps losing but still keeps fighting.

But she'll still take him by the hand, and they'll still go have wild monkey sex. Or maybe they'll make tender love . . . all over the kitchen table. Or they've been apart for ten years, but I'm sure they're just down there just having tea and crackers. Angel will ask about her husband and maybe Buffy will cry a little. Then she'll smile and talk about Dawn and Xander and Willow. And she'll ask about him, and Angel's face will light up as he tells her about Connor, about his granddaughter. And Angel will eventually say, "I'm happy, Buffy. I was happy before . . . but I'm also happy you came."

And Buffy will say, "I was happy, too. But I'd also be happy to stay."

And Angel will say, "Forever? Is forever alright with you?"

And Buffy will say yes.


*

Okay, so that was really long. Thoughts? I'm aware not all of this makes sense. I wanted to say something all meaningful about B/A, but I have a tendency to gush when it comes to them. So, questions? Concerns? Yeah . . . Buts? Links to B/A meta? Links to manifestos of your own ship? Feel a need to gush about your ship, also? Here is fine or here. Because ship love is . . . hey! It's love.

[identity profile] bashipforever.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 02:24 am (UTC)(link)
Yay for the BA love! I friended you btw because BA love! I have to say I agree with you here especially about the Buffy being 65 thing and the whole they love each other no matter what. Now I'm off to make my own BA essay to put in your other OTP love post.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Any friend of B/A is a friend of mine :o)

And thanks again for talking about your OTP love. It's nice that there are others who could go on about this ship as long as I can.

[identity profile] aloneinthetown.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 02:30 am (UTC)(link)
I LOVE IT. That's all I've got to say.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you!

[identity profile] canadiangirl-86.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 03:24 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not quite sure what to say other than...this was perfect. I think I agree with pretty much every point you've made here. Really and truly. I've never been in love before and yet I feel like I have a rather mature view of love; I've never seen Buffy and Angel as that shiny happy couple. That's never what they were supposed to be and it frustrates me when people simplify it in that way.

And I'm so unbelievably with you about the Romeo and Juliet thing. I really hate when people compare the stories because I just say, "hey, Romeo and Juliet had this ideal 'love at first sight' and didn't even know each other and then killed themselves because they couldn't live without each other."

That's the total opposite of what B/A is, and it's why I personally really respected what they did with Angel after Buffy died because it so beautifully mirrored Buffy's story after she had to send Angel to hell. They were devastated, they mourned, and they dealt with their grief. And the fact that they could move on in no way indicates a lack of love because it's something we all go through in life - the people we love die but we keep going because we have to.

B/A don't have a perfect relationship, but the love that they have for each other is, as SMG says, "love in its truest, most pure form." What they feel is so real - even when the facts of life force them apart - and that's enough.

So, in summary, WORD. *G*
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you!

I've never been in love before and yet I feel like I have a rather mature view of love; I've never seen Buffy and Angel as that shiny happy couple.

For me, it was like this: I thought I had a mature view of love, then I fell in love, and all of that went out the window. I couldn't control myself and couldn't help myself and hated myself because I thought I was being immature. But I think that happens to a lot of people; that's just the way love is for most. But what truly matters is what happens afterwards: if you expect always to be a shiny happy couple, you're never going to be happy. If you can accept the fall-out--the what happens once that 'can't help myself' wears off--and keep accepting it every time your lover disappoints you or something goes wrong--that's real love. And I think that's what Buffy and Angel have.

I really hate when people compare the stories because I just say, "hey, Romeo and Juliet had this ideal 'love at first sight' and didn't even know each other and then killed themselves because they couldn't live without each other."

I hate it when people compare the stories, too, but for kind of a different reason. I think R&J had more than love at first sight--they had a connection; they had a lot of what Buffy and Angel had S2 (this is just imo! :o) But they didn't have enough to sustain themselves (and, by extension, their love) once what I'm calling the "fall-out" came. Romeo wasn't strong enough, didn't love Juliet enough, and didn't believe enough in her love for him to believe that she would want him to go on and be happy without her--and maybe she wouldn't have, because their love was just not that strong to be that unselfish. And the exact same goes for Juliet.

And the fact that they could move on in no way indicates a lack of love because it's something we all go through in life - the people we love die but we keep going because we have to.

Yep, that does sum it up perfectly.

Thanks again!

[identity profile] semby.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 03:26 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, ok, see that's what I meant to write in my comment on your other post. Of course.

*tears up near the end*
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Heh. I think many of us B/Aers turn kinda inarticulate when it comes to B/A, which makes me sad, but I understand and do it too, you know? So I was thinking about this/dabbling on it for a long time so I could actually try to say something both meaningful and coherent.

[identity profile] druinsanity.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 03:48 am (UTC)(link)
This is just so perfect. le happy sigh..... I'm all BA happy snuggly now. Thanks for such a great post.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you. I'm glad you liked it. Giving people the B/A happies is a true joy :o)

[identity profile] kita0610.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 04:08 am (UTC)(link)
I love you so much.

Yes. Just. YES.

ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Right back atcha.

Thanks again for the rec.

*Applause*

[identity profile] mshepnj.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 04:28 am (UTC)(link)
Wow, that's just about perfect. And the best part is your brain did all the hard work, so we didn't have to. It's a gift. Thank you.

I'm not sure how anyone could claim she didn't still love him except to say she's not with him.

This is one that I don't understand either. I suppose it's easy to dismiss what Buffy and Angel had together- after they've separated, if one needs to believe that their love is in the canonical past because then it conveniently leaves Buffy's heart available for a new love. That's probably simplistic, but it's what I've seen often in comments.

But what I'm saying is it's not about loving Angel "enough" to want to run off with him, or even be with him. It's about loving Angel in a way that's grown up and real, in a way that's grown-up and real enough to allow them to be happy with other people and do the right thing even if it hurts the other or means they can't be together.

Exactly.

Brava!
ext_7189: (lissla)

Re: *Applause*

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:16 pm (UTC)(link)
And the best part is your brain did all the hard work, so we didn't have to. It's a gift.

Heh, thank you!

That's probably simplistic

Yeah, see, that's what gets me. There's actually really no HARD evidence in canon that she still loves him all the way through "Chosen" and beyond, and that fact makes a kind of hold in this essay-thingy. But one of the reasons I choose to believe she does still love him is it makes everything so interesting and complex and messy (okay, also because I love B/A. What's it to ya??)

Thanks again, and thanks again for the rec in your journal.

[identity profile] midnightsjane.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
**applause, applause**
But what I love about B/A is just that: they will always love each other and the hope is still always there. The way they love each other in later seasons is in no way, shape, or form anything childish, fairytale, or doomed to burn out. It just is, as simple and incontrovertible as the way a father loves a son. It's there no matter how much time passes, no matter what the other one does--even if one dies. In your most desperate hours you can call on it and it will be there for you, and if both are willing, it can spring back to life just as headlong and sexy and passionate and this is it as it's ever been before. Because the heart of it is just there, and it's a part of Angel and Buffy as much as Connor and Dawn are a part of them, too. I love the reassurance in that, and the promise, and the hope.

That's it exactly. Thank you for this; you express so eloquently what I've always felt about these two.
That's also one of the reasons I loved Fairytale of New York so much; [livejournal.com profile] a2zmom understands Buffy and Angel as you do.

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[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com - 2006-02-03 23:19 (UTC) - Expand

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[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com - 2006-02-03 23:18 (UTC) - Expand

*beams*

[identity profile] ba4ever.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
Just. POIFECT. Oooh how I love you so. I love that now, when people ask me why I love B/A, I'll just link them to this post.

I love how you covered Every. Single. Fucking. Point. You defend and make sense of them (hey, they already made sense to me, but trying to explain it to the uninformed?). They have their ups and downs, this is exactly why this ISN'T a puppy R&J love. Because while R&J was tragic..did they really know each other? Did they love each other enough to let them go, let them go off with other people, let them find happiness on their own? I'd say no. The word lust and infatuation springs to mind when I think of them. Although there are aspects of that in B/A, it grew beyond that.

They grew apart..and together as independent, strong, heroic individualts...together and apart. That my friend is a true 'mature love', which I almost hate saying because of the association with Spuffy *rolls eyes*

But what I love about B/A is just that: they will always love each other and the hope is still always there. The way they love each other in later seasons is in no way, shape, or form anything childish, fairytale, or doomed to burn out. It just is, as simple and incontrovertible as the way a father loves a son. It's there no matter how much time passes, no matter what the other one does--even if one dies. In your most desperate hours you can call on it and it will be there for you, and if both are willing, it can spring back to life just as headlong and sexy and passionate and this is it as it's ever been before. Because the heart of it is just there, and it's a part of Angel and Buffy as much as Connor and Dawn are a part of them, too. I love the reassurance in that, and the promise, and the hope.

YES YES YES! B/A orgasm! I love you. You rock so hard.
ext_7189: (lissla)

Re: *beams*

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, thank you! You rock back and I'm so glad that other B/Aers are agreeing with me in loving the same things about the ship that I do.

I love how you covered Every. Single. Fucking. Point.

Ha, thanks, but that's frightening because I still have so much more to say. I have more meta and rants and squees in my B/A bag coming soon to a journal near you.

Because while R&J was tragic..did they really know each other? Did they love each other enough to let them go, let them go off with other people, let them find happiness on their own?

Exactly. The thing is, I like R&J. I'm not going to dismiss the play or the characters, because I think it has an interesting point. But the point is about how love is when so many people fall in love, and about how that love is so violent and obsessive, it just can't last. R&J does, imo, have a lot of parallels to early B/A, but the point is: when the shit hits the fan, R&J fail. They fail because their love is too selfish and juvenile for them to live without each other. B/A? Go on, and that's the big difference, imo.

B/A orgasm!

Heh, me too! All these people loving on B/A, and all these people who don't love B/A but can see what I mean when I say I do--it's making me quite happy!

Re: *beams*

[identity profile] ba4ever.livejournal.com - 2006-02-04 04:47 (UTC) - Expand

Re: *beams*

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Re: *beams*

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[identity profile] ely-jan.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 06:13 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not a B/A shipper really, but do I believe Angel loved Buffy, that she loved him? That it was true although doomed? Yes, absolutely.

Do I see their lives brushing time and time again?

Yes. Forever? Not in my mind, but then from the beginning, I never saw their love as destined to last anywhere but in their hearts, in their memories of what once was. Not because it was a "first love" or even because it was forbidden or doomed or impossible, but simply because both of them will never be who they were then. Nor do I think they want to, not really.

But I know one thing I do believe in - your love for this ship. This was amazing, and beautifully written. Thanks for sharing it with us, all of us. Even the non-B/A camp.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:30 pm (UTC)(link)
but simply because both of them will never be who they were then.

Yeah, I totally see that. A lot of people feel that way.

Nor do I think they want to, not really.

Completely agree. Some people see B/A occuring post Chosen/NFA as a reversion, but I wouldn't want them to have a relationship that was the same as before or had them acting as they did before all over again. What's the point in that? Sometimes when I think about B/A getting back together again, it's almost more like thinking about Buffy and Gunn getting together: examining people who haven't met before and trying to see how they fit together or how they might work. Of course, it's different, because B/A have met and have a history, but I love thinking about how the way they've changed and developed will play out and/or against each other if they get back together.

your love for this ship. This was amazing, and beautifully written. Thanks for sharing it with us, all of us. Even the non-B/A camp.

Aw, thanks! I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record, but I think the very first reason all of us are in fandom is love, and in turn, that's what I love about fandom. There's nothing I love more than hearing people meta or squee or discuss or debate the stuff they care deeply about, and I figure I better do a little now and then myself if I'm going to really contribute something. Thanks again.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/ 2006-02-02 07:33 am (UTC)(link)
That was fascinating. It is always good to hear about a ship that is so important to the show and yet gets relativly little attention in terms of analysis.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you! And you're right about the dearth of B/A analysis. I wonder why that is.

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[identity profile] violetfrosting.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 09:28 am (UTC)(link)
*cries*
*lacks any coherent comments*

And I'm not even particularly a shipper.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:32 pm (UTC)(link)
*wipes your tears*

It is a good day in fandom when the love colors outside the lines so hard it smears you with green and purple and burnt umber ;o)

[identity profile] lillianmorgan.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 10:11 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks very much for your thoughts, they made very interesting reading to me, I'm particularly impressed with your passion for the 'ship, as someone who has difficulty seeing the relationship extend beyond Season 4-ish. ::hides::
Angel is the only one who is 1. intimately acquainted with the world she lives in, 2. not worrisomely mortal, and 3. not trying to kill her.
Heh. Good point. And giggle-worthy.
and left me so decisively I couldn't argue it. It would've broken my heart, but things would've worked better in the end.
I can only nod at this.
I must say one of the reasons why I *could* see it working is for Buffy to mature, and you mention that Angel's leaving allows her to do that. But I guess by maturing she allows herself to love, to find room in her heart for the different kinds of love there are for all the different people who have filled her life.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 11:37 pm (UTC)(link)
they made very interesting reading to me, I'm particularly impressed with your passion for the 'ship, as someone who has difficulty seeing the relationship extend beyond Season 4-ish.

That's me as far as a lot of other ships go. The ones I don't get don't repel me; they fascinate me. Part of it is I think I have a better understanding of the characters I love if I can try to understand the other people they've loved . . . Part of it is I think I can have a better understanding of fans and friends if I can try to understand the characters they love . . . Both are worthy causes, imo. In short, thanks for reading!

But I guess by maturing she allows herself to love, to find room in her heart for the different kinds of love there are for all the different people who have filled her life.

Yes, exactly. And that Buffy, she has a big heart. She has room for lots.

Thanks again!

[identity profile] chrisleeoctaves.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 01:18 pm (UTC)(link)
You totally gutted me with that last scenario.

I've just finished rewatching seasons 1 and 2...and I was particularly struck with one line in IOHEFY, just before the ghosts overtake B and A. She says: 'You were the only one I could talk to.

That really resonated with me this time around. Every onscreen scene Buffy and Angel had with each other hinted at so much more behind the scenes.'

I believe in their potential as much now as I ever did...maybe more. But I also believe in quite a lot of what you have said in this piece. And, personally, I believe that if you love someone- you always love them.

Love forgotten wasn't love.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I doubt you'll change anyone's mins, but I think people who dismiss B/A are missing one of the most important and central themes of the show.

*loves*

lynnenne: (skewed world view by xanphibian)

[personal profile] lynnenne 2006-02-03 03:20 am (UTC)(link)
Love forgotten wasn't love.

Really have to disagree with you there, lovely. :) I can't say I've forgotten my love, but I'm definitely over it. And thank god for it; otherwise I'd still be wallowing in depression and crying myself to sleep every night. I might still have feelings for him, and there might be a (slight) chance that if he came crawling back to me, we could start over. But it wouldn't be my first choice. I'd much prefer to start over with someone new.

That's... kind of the the thing that bugs me about B/A. Yes, there's hope there, but for me, it's the kind of hope that says you can only ever have one *truly* great love in a lifetime. You may love others, but never in quite the same way. I don't buy that. I truly believe that I will love someone else just as madly and passionately and deeply as I did before. I have to believe it, you see... otherwise my future looks pretty damn bleak. Plus, I *want* to believe it. I don't want to go back. And I don't want Buffy and Angel to go back, either, because it's a personal affront to my own belief system. *g*

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ext_2661: (Default)

[identity profile] jennem.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 01:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Exactly.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 04:25 am (UTC)(link)
Yay! Thanks.

[identity profile] stoney321.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 02:32 pm (UTC)(link)
GOD. Yes. YES!! I love this.

*slow claps*

*waits for the cacophony of everyone else, whether they have the B/A love or not*
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 04:25 am (UTC)(link)
Yay! I'm glad you read it and approve.

[identity profile] anelith.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 03:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks for putting this into such a wonderful essay. I'm saving this to memories. I do have the B/A love (as much as I love other pairings too).
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 04:26 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks, I'm flattered. It's nice to see so many--even people who don't primarily or even usually ship B/A--coming by and showing the love!

[identity profile] a2zmom.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 04:14 pm (UTC)(link)
yes. completely. absolutely.

The killed each other. They literally murdered each other and still they didn't stop loving each other. How can a love like that ever die?
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 04:28 am (UTC)(link)
Well...he never literally murdered her.

But yeah. I totally believe some love can crash and burn or fade away. Just not theirs.

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[identity profile] veraklon.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 04:15 pm (UTC)(link)
I beleive that Angel and Buffy loved each other in the same way that teenagers love each other... for the moment, all consuming and destined to fail before the realness of love could set in.

Angel and Buffy were ideals for love, but they couldn't work. Ignore the vampire and slayer aspect, but look at the people inside. Buffy was too young, too inexperienced and simply not ready. Angel was a spoiled, selfish, frat boy that aways got what he wanted. Redemption was forced on him... and even then, he sulked and whined about it until someone took his hand and led him towards the light.

In other words, they looked perfect together and will always be what the other considers as their true soul mate... but in the real world, they are wrong for each other. Soul mates rarely stay together. They simply can't.

I agree with your ideas of them constantly coming together... maybe even there at the end, both happy from having had lives separate, but ready to recapture the magic of youth at the end of the road. It's nice... like the ending to a fairy tale.

I think Spike works better. I never thought I'd say that, but it was a fanfiction that eventually had me look at it that way.

Buffy is older, has been hurt enough by the things she thought she loved and lost enough to be ready for love. Spike is the geek that had a chance to be the bully, only to be brought low by finding what he actually needed in life... the love of someone deserving.

But just my thoughts.

Nice essay. Still looking for the next chapters of your stories.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 04:45 am (UTC)(link)
Buffy was too young, too inexperienced and simply not ready.

I agree completely . . . Which is why I think Angel left.

Angel was a spoiled, selfish, frat boy that aways got what he wanted. Redemption was forced on him... and even then, he sulked and whined about it until someone took his hand and led him towards the light.

I have trouble seeing Angel that way. Liam may have been spoiled and selfish, but I don't think he got what he wanted--from his father or his life before he was turned. Angelus, I think we can all say, was spoiled and selfish and got what he wanted. Ensouled Angel I think cannot be called spoiled, nor did he get what he wanted. I wouldn't call him selfish, either--I'd call him weak. He tried to help--we're shown him trying to connect or make things better for people at least once, and I do believe it must've happened more than once--failed miserably, and gave up, only to try again after moping about it. That's not selfishness so much as inability to cope.

I'd also say redemption wasn't forced on him. The curse was forced on him, the soul was forced on him, but the soul /= redemption. I can't help but think that many people would choose to go the Ann Rice direction in his position: go nuts and eat people anyway, or eat people all the time but be all angsty and self-hating about it. I think Angel's guilt for things he might've, if he'd've been less of a person, not even blamed on himself, and his attempts to help people (even if they were pitiful and far between) signified a far deeper person underneath.

Lastly, the "taking him by the hand" was Whistler saying, "hey look at this Slayer being Called." That's really all Whistler did . . . maybe he convince Angel he had a destiny, which I think makes Angel feel a lot better about himself . . . but I would argue that though Whistler pointed the way, Angel got there by himself.

and will always be what the other considers as their true soul mate

Not sure I agree there, either. I'm not sure Buffy or Angel think in terms of "soul mate." If they did, I would find their willingness to go on to other people and love and find happiness elsewhere almost . . . deceptive.

but ready to recapture the magic of youth at the end of the road

I can't really see that, either. I don't think they'd ever have what they had when they were young, because they're not the same people. I think that if they ever got together again they'd have to start over again with getting to know each other and learning each other all over again. Once that's done, I think that the passion and love and overwhelmingness of it could be just as intense as it once was, but that doesn't make it the same.

I think Spike works better. I never thought I'd say that, but it was a fanfiction that eventually had me look at it that way.

I can understand that. Although I'm not a B/S shipper, I've seen some really great arguments for B/S, and I understand and appreciate the ship.

Nice essay.

Thanks. I think we disagree on a lot of points, but that's in no way a bad thing, you know? It's interesting hearing what other people think.

[identity profile] wildrosesings.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 06:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Hi there! Dropped in via Kita's recommendation--I really enjoyed this. Mind if I friend you, to see what else appears?
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 04:48 am (UTC)(link)
Hey! Thanks for stopping by, and I'm glad you liked it. Of course I don't mind, and right back at ya. I have to warn you that it's B/A love month here in my journal, but I usually get around to posting fic or something every once in a while ;o)

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[identity profile] dryad-duinath.livejournal.com 2006-02-02 07:06 pm (UTC)(link)
aww.

(I am not so good with the talky. no.)
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 04:49 am (UTC)(link)
I'll tell myself I rendered you speechless and thank you for the compliment of it ;o)
aea: (Buffy/Angel feels like home)

[personal profile] aea 2006-02-02 10:30 pm (UTC)(link)
You said every single thing I want to about the pair. I even attempted a post about them but just wound up with lyrics to songs that remind me of them. They are 'always'- there is hope and promise.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 04:50 am (UTC)(link)
Nothing wrong with song lyrics. Well, not true. Song fics aren't my cuppa. But I have a whole set of songs that when I hear them I think "hey B/A is like that!", so I know what you mean. I'm glad you enjoyed the thingy.

[identity profile] baffae.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 12:04 am (UTC)(link)
I love B/A because Buffy thinks that she can have something normal with Angel, precisely because Angel is the most not normal thing out there

It's the moment at which, if B/A was "just a first love", their love fails. It fails, but it continues afterwards, which makes it not "just a first love". Take the first three words off that quote and you have it. It's love.

He loved her that much and that unselfishly.

It's about loving Angel in a way that isn't going to go away no matter who else she loves or what else she does, because it is grown up and real--enough so to sustain any change, any situation or separation.


this made my B/A heart flutter. You expressed so beautifully what we all love about this couple.

Theirs is a love that will never end, literally never. Death, age, fights; no obstacle could ever get in thier way enough to stymie their love.

I sometimes think that, as someone who has yet to fall in love, being so devoted to the Buffy/Angel relationship has ruined my chances of ever actually experiencing love to it's fullest extent. I doubt whether I am capable of loving as wholly, as fully, as unconditionally as Buffy and Angel love each other. The love they share is deeper and stronger than anything I could ever hope to have. It's so true and so complete that even while they do nothing but hurt each other so badly they need to exit thier lives (ala Becoming through Anne and i-can't-remember-the-episode-Angel-visits-some-monks-when-Buffy-dies) they still can't stop, still need to love each other, still enjoy loving each other.

They complete each other. Without Buffy, who would Angel be right now? A rat-eating vampire living in an alley. Without Angel, who would Buffy be right now? Well, dead, vapid, hollow, that cheerleader she was before she was called.

By the way, mind if I friend you?
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 04:58 am (UTC)(link)
I'm glad you liked it!

I sometimes think that, as someone who has yet to fall in love, being so devoted to the Buffy/Angel relationship has ruined my chances of ever actually experiencing love to it's fullest extent.

I doubt that's true, but my own (very small) experience with love has been this: it can be just as beautiful as everyone says it is. You can get to that place where you think you ARE going to have something amazing and true and overwhelming and strong and forever like B/A . . . But it can also suck. You'll get to a point where you doubt it. You'll get to a point where you have to shove a sword in someone's chest (hopefully not really). And after that, it's either over, or hard work. But from what I've see of the people who've done that hard work--it's worth it.

And of course I don't mind if you friend me--right back atcha!

[identity profile] crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 01:18 am (UTC)(link)
Because the heart of it is just there, and it's a part of Angel and Buffy as much as Connor and Dawn are a part of them, too. I love the reassurance in that, and the promise, and the hope. That's everything I would want to say about them right there - and you did it beautifully.

One of things I was going to say in the OTP post about when I said I loved S/X because it's "hopeless" was that I don't necessarily lean toward a "hopeless" love - I'm not all about the angst. Despite that fact that what drew me to S/X was that I feel that they're a 'ship that slams together in the night and either forces something together, or has an experience and moves on (it should be noted that most of the S/X fic I've read has a happy ending) but a component in a lot of my fave future fic S/X (and I love future fic) was that right there alongside them were...Buffy/Angel. And I believe in my secret of most secret 'shippy heart (the place where I keep furry little monkeys clutching satin hearts that read "You Drive Me Bananas!") is a hope for Spike/Xander and Buffy/Angel and then once mortality catches up with Xander and Buffy...it's Spike/Angel finding each other. Simplistic? Yes. But I get all three of my favorite 'ships and it's my imagination so...you know. :) Thanks for lovely words!
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:04 am (UTC)(link)
is a hope for Spike/Xander and Buffy/Angel and then once mortality catches up with Xander and Buffy...it's Spike/Angel finding each other.

Dude, that's . . . You just made me very happy. Now I want to write S/A set 200 years in the future, in which they've gone through so much shite and loved and lost so many damn times, and in the end there's always . . . each other. Damn. I can't believe how happy that makes me, and sad at the same time too. I've been wondering lately whether I'm going to wake up one day and realize my new OTP is A/S. Gah! Too much love!

Thank you for the insight and the thoughts and the nice compliments.

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[identity profile] shamoogity.livejournal.com 2006-02-03 01:34 am (UTC)(link)
Here from su_herald. I really, really loved this. I always felt vaguely guilty about loving B/A because they do have that reputation for being melodramatic and childish, but you articulated all the reasons for loving them that I never could. And the end was just so lovely.
ext_7189: (lissla)

[identity profile] tkp.livejournal.com 2006-02-05 05:06 am (UTC)(link)
We must embrace the melodrama and childishness! We must OWN it, or be PWND owned. It makes me sad when people say they're embarrassed or guilty for loving B/A, because there are really a lot of things about it that are beautiful and profound and real, and to be ashamed is to doubt that. So! I'm glad if I could make you feel less guilty, and thanks for dropping by.

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