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You guys you guys you guys!

You know what the world needs more of?

Batman/Gordon. Bruce Wayne/Jim Gordon, Bruce/Jim, Jim/Bruce, Jim Gordon/Bruce Wayne, Gordon/Batman. Do you see how I am like a tween dreaming of marriage to her chemistry class crush? Bruce Gordon. Jim Wayne. Bruce Wayne-Gordon. James "Jim" Wayne.

First of all, you guys, Commissioner Gordon. I read this quote about how in a place like Gotham City, it's easier to be Batman than Commissioner Gordon. It's melodramatic, but don't you think it's a little true? I mean, isn't the whole reason Wayne became Batman because he didn't see how else to do what needed to be done? And yeah, that's brave, and maybe cleverer, more productive, useful (in the short term. Who knows what it does for the underpinnings of society? I'm not even getting into the ideas of Gordon's actions being definitely more ethical, perhaps also more moral).

But Gordon's the one doing this thing he knows is impossible. And he's never going to stop, no matter how impossible it is. He's going to do it until it kills him, because someone needs to try.

I . . . don't know what's wrong with me.

I also don't know when RL is going to let up, but I'm hoping soon. I got a new job (still at the Science Center, different position), but I've finally done it a couple times now, and there's not extensive travel/visiting people for the next six weeks or so ... who knows. I miss you all. I do still read your journals, even if I don't comment. Looking forward to reading some fic eventually...!

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BATMAN AND GORDON ARE LIKE AN OLD MARRIED COUPLE. THEY HAVE BICKERING BEAUTIFUL LOVE.

(I'm pretty sure, in point of fact, that COMICS CANON has made that reference.)

Everyone always wants it, no one ever wants to *write* it.

Clearly, AI needs to progress to the point where we can plug in a pairing and it can generate stories.

I'm totally writing it. BECAUSE I NEED IT. That doesn't mean it will ever get posted or see the light of day, sadly.

I read a good one based on comics canon. All the other ones I've read are Nolanverse. Which is fine*, because that's what I was thinking of about two weeks ago when I went ~~bat-~~ape-shit for this pairing. It's what I'm writing because I think its take on Gordon is what did it for me.

But I loved cartoon-Gordon, and what comics Gordon I've seen, so I guess if I stick to it (these things come and go!) I might venture there.

*fine, except none of it is really what I see in Nolanverse. It tends toward fluff, if you ask me. WHERE IS THE TWISTED FATHER FIGURE DADDY!KINK, also the MORAL DIFFERENCES!KINK, I ask you?

Hee! I love your footnote.

I'd totally read that. Dude, where is the Nolanverse fic, that *isn't* all about the Joker?

I know. It's weird how there are so many fics about Joker himself, when it seems like the only real use for that character is to give us a good look at other characters.

I take it back. It's not weird. But it's sorta frustrating.

:nods: I adored the Joker in the TDK. He was an awesome villain. I just don't need fic about him. Especially when so any interesting an complex heroes in the same verse. Give more Alfred! Bruce! Jim! Heck, even Rachael. I would also *love* some good Bruce/Harvey.

I like that Rachel died, but I really sometimes wish the whole thing was a tv series, so I could've spent more time with all the characters. I think I would've really liked Rachel/Bruce. And Bruce/Harvey is more interesting because of it, considering the absent third.

But I'm so stuck on Batman(Bruce)/Gordon it makes me go GAH. GAH, I say.

Congrats on the new job, babycakes! And the new(?) fandom. They can be so liberating! New material, new canon for the win!

ILU, L.

HEE. New obsessions are teh awesome. But they always blindside me! I'm always, "No, wait HAY! I was doing something THAR."

Hi! Glad to see you again! Congratulations on the new job, and selfishly glad that it might mean we'll see more of you around here perhaps.

I don't know much about the Batman 'verse, and I haven't seen The Dark Knight yet. Why yes, I *have* been living under a rock, now that you ask... we'll see it when it comes out on DVD and we get it in our Netflix queue. It's all a question of babysitting time, you know. But your new OTP sounds enticing.

I liked TDK. A lot. But I didn't love it. But I've always loved Batman, so now that I look back on it, finding a pairing that suited me in that fandom was just waiting to happen...sort of like me, HP, and H/D ;o)

Thanks for the congrats! The new job has meant I've been even more absent than before for most of Sept and August. But now that I know the ropes a little better, perhaps now I'm finally able to breathe!

We miss you, tooooooo! *hugs*

(((((((((((((((hugs back)))))))))))))))))

I have nothing to say about Batman right now. Sorry!

[hi.]

hi hi hi!

I ADORE Commissioner Gordon. I mean Batman's the epitome of cool, but Gordon's my hero. This pairing needs to be written, especially in TDK canon, as it's the only one I know comprehensively. DC verse is so huge it makes my head spin. I wish to emerge myself but I'm too intimidated to start.

If you write that pairing I'd like to put a vote in for Batman/Gordon NOT Bruce/(Jim) Gordon. It's important to the relationship that Batman be Batman to Gordon, and that Gordon recognize Batman as a human being despite not knowing WHICH human being he is. Or so I believe

I feel that Bruce Wayne is Batman, so that would be kinda hard to pull off.

Anyway, despite stating the obvious, I'm not trying to be obtuse, here. I think Batman is mostly a symbol. Gordon could understand that he's a human being while Batman maintains that symbolism, but it would mostly be abstract knowledge. To really know him as a man, Gordon would have to know Bruce Wayne.

Now, the Bruce Wayne Bruce shows to most people is mostly symbolic as well. So there's a self Bruce mostly keeps hidden. It's the self that's fucked up and vulnerable and twisted enough to create and maintain Batman. That's the man behind who Batman really is. And while it doesn't have much to do with symbol!Bruce Wayne (the face Bruce Wayne shows to the world), it does have to do with facts that pertain to Bruce's real life: the fact that his parents were murdered, the fact that he's so rich and in the spotlight that he can't live a real life outside of Batman, the fact that he has to pretend so constantly that no one can know him, etc. Someone (e.g. Gordon) would have to understand these things to understand where Batman is coming from at all. Else he would just be a disembodied entity. You might like Batman's personality (though who would?) or even his principles but you would never know him.

And I think Gordon would demand to know these things. He might guess at the secret life Batman has to lead, and the secret wounds he bears, but not knowing the details makes Batman still an abstract, symbolic figure. On a personal level, I think that Gordon would be impatient with those abstractions, but be compassionate and empathetic with realities.

Lastly, I don't think Bruce himself would tolerate it. I don't think he wants to be unknown by the people he loves. There's a moment in Batman Begins which is very telling to me--when Rachel sees him behaving like a playboy fool in public. He tries to tell her he's more than what she sees, and she tells him to prove that with his actions. And then of course Batman lets her know who he really is. I think it was partly because she was a childhood friend, but I think part of it was he just couldn't stand someone he loved looking at him--and it was him, even if he had a different kind of mask on--in that way. I don't think he'd be able to stand that from anyone he loved in so strong a way. And I think it's sort of inevitable that Gordon and Bruce Wayne would at least have some moments of interaction, enough to make Bruce want him to know.

hahaha I realized I just meta dumped on U THAR. Sorry! I've been trying to work out why the fics where his lover doesn't know who Batman is read as so wrong to me (besides the whole mechanics of the suit thing, because admittedly Batman in nothing but his cowl is THE FUNNIEST THING EVAR). But anyway, that's obviously just my thinking on the matter! I'd be interested in your thoughts too.

It's nice to talk to you again!

<3

Meta dumps are always lovely. You should never apologize.

Now allow me to disagree.

I actually agree with what you said about Bruce wanting his loved ones to know his whole self. However, I don't think it's fully necessary for a relationship, or maybe it's more complex. In that scene from movie one with Racheal it's important to note that he didn't necessarily object to her not knowing the entirety of who he is merely to her believing that the public face he presents is all he is.

In order to explain I'm going to need to make a little key. From now on Batman = Batman, Mr. Wayne = the public image of Bruce Wayne, Bruce = the full human being behind both masks.

I think it's important to not the difference between Batman the mask and Mr. Wayne the mask. Mainly that the Mr. Wayne persona was devised to be shallow, to make people not want to look beneath the surface, to keep people out and at a distance. The Batman persona was designed to do just the opposite, to make people believe there is a deeper well beneath the mask, to wonder what it is, to want to know. In fact the fact that Batman wears a mask ensures that everyone KNOWS they are not seeing the full picture. That there is another person under the persona that they don't know.

Why is this important? Well, it allows someone who's trying to have a relationship with Batman a distinct advantage over someone trying to have a relationship with Mr. Wayne. The person trying to have a relationship with Batman is going to actively search for the man behind the mask the person Mr. Wayne is trying to have a relationship with is not.

I know you're now thinking "right so 'the man behind the mask' that would be Bruce. What's the disagreement?" Here's the thing I think someone could understand things about Bruce the person without necessarily connecting it to The Mr. Wayne Identity (Oh! The Wayne Identity. Like Bourne! Moving on...)Of course their not going to get the complete picture, but they can get some of it. They could get many of the important bits. The "meat" of Bruce, at least. Why he does what he does (Gotham needs it. He has personally suffered from criminal activity.) The sacrifices he has to make to do it (Keeping people at a distance. Putting people he cares about in danger.) Or even just what does he like to do in his free time (Race cars? Shakespeare? Watching Lassie on re-run?) And alot of these things Gordon can sympathize with, is in a unique position to do so actually. Mind the extent to which Batman can reveal things about Bruce to Gordon without tipping him off about The Wayne Identity is at the discretion of the author of course.

I think you're right that Bruce will never be fully emotionally satisfied with an arrangement like this, that he won't be until his loved ones know the complete truth, but that doesn't mean it has to be entirely empty, that he can't reap something from it. It might not be enough to give him what he wants but it could still be enough to give him what he needs.

So why CAN'T Gordon find out about The Wayne Identity? Well technically he could and they could have an honest emotionally fulfilling relationship and they could ride off into the sunset together except that that a) would be dead boring b)totally fucks up the narrative and c)isn't who they are. Gordon, as a character, is Batman's conduit to the rest of the world. That's his job, that's what Batman needs him to be, that's what Gotham needs him to be. And they both know it. I don't think that Gordon could go back to being Batman's telephone line if he ever got completely and fully emersed in the life of Bruce, if they established that kind of intimacy that involves unmasking Batman. And neither one of them would want to jepordize that professional relationship. What Gotham needs, remember?

So it's a balancing act. Getting close enough to feel, to support, without getting too close. You could even, I suppose, if you wanted to be daring have Gordon know or suspect, or suggest that he knows about The Wayne Idenentity without him saying aything to Batman, because he knows he needs to keep that boundary. It gets wishy washy.

In terms of sex around The Batsuit, I hadn't even thought about the mechanics of it really. And yeah the picture you painted is pretty hilarious. Of course I'm sure it can be done in the hands of a good author. However the only mechanics I see working easily involve Bruce, a voice synthesizer, and the words "don't turn around"/total darkness/a blindfold. You get the idea.

How's that for a meta dump? Oh and it's very wonderful talking to you again. I had missed it.

I just think Gordon not knowing puts Batman in a position of power Gordon wouldn't tolerate. Imo, Gordon feels like his whole purpose is to be there if ever Batman crosses the line--to be the one to put Batman away if Batman turns too far to the dark. I hesitate to say Gordon sees himself as Batman's equal--Batman's doing the things that Gordon cannot. But again, Gordon would hunt Batman down, never give up, and never stop, if Batman went too far. So I think Gordon sees their relationship as a sort of give-and-take, and in the end Gordon feels he's allowing the idea of Batman to exist (for as long as it is needed).

The power dynamics would just be so wrong to me if Gordon didn't know who Batman was. Bruce would have that knowledge over Gordon. Also, physically, he would have the advantage, because it'd have to be Gordon who was blindfolded or couldn't face Bruce. ...Though I suppose Bruce facing the wall the whole time might work...o_0

I don't need them to have an honest or emotionally fulfilling relationship, but I do need Gordon to hold his own. He's more than a telephone line, or even a conduit. And Batman is not his hero.

Lastly, I don't think Gordon knowing who Bruce Wayne was would prevent him from doing what's best for Gotham. Possibly that would be true if they did have the ride off into the sunset relationship, but I don't think Gordon knowing Batman's identity presupposes such a relationship exists. I think there are many ways for Gordon to know or find out, and still have a relationship with Batman/Bruce that is fucked up and complex, and involves Gordon taking the hardline with Batman more than ever.

I totally ship Batman/Gordon. I would write it except for the fact that I have never seen (much less read) any Batman comics. I wonder if it's acceptable in Batman fandom to write about the movies as well? I'd love to write it... I doubt that I would be very good, though, since I was never really into Batman. I just like the newest movies- Batman Begins and The Dark Knight.
But if I ever make the attempt to write this, I'll let you know. =)

This is a big issue in many fandoms, but I think it's stupid the way some fans demand that you know every form of canon ever. I think it should be perfectly acceptable to write fic based off Batman Begins and The Dark Knight without ever having read any comics or been into anything else Batman. But many disagree with me.

The fic I'm writing now is based off the movies had only uses a little from the comics and the Animated Series.

I love you!

I also love your above meta-dump. Very interesting. And I do hope, that if you write anything, I'll get to see it. See, I love your obsessions--if you're into it, I know there's something there that's going to interest me.

Also, I am replying to this way late because I am like skip=300 on lj.

I think there's stuff in the fic you might like. Thematically, conceptually, it makes me really really happy. But it's pretty funny because you can tell what I'm interested in--there's not really a plot to speak of, and the action stuff makes no sense. I don't really know how the police work on a technical level, and I could really care less. I don't want to research or anything like that. Apparently I'm a bad fan?

Thanks for being interested. I feel that way about your obsessions too. I find Orson hot anyway, but yeah. You being interested in him makes me more interested. WE ARE OBVIOUSLY AWESOME.

Combined, anyway, we are unstoppable!

But yes, considering your concerns, plot would not be at the top of my list of what I wanted from your fic. I understand the need to explore certain things, and that those needs sometimes do not require other conventions to hold true. Which might not make it "good fiction," but does make it entertaining/thought provoking/interesting.

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You guys you guys you guys!

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