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Let's talk about imagined audience.
Ask me a question! Because I missed you.
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So, recently a couple people have got me thinking about the concept of "imagined audience." Let me say first that I hope if you write, fanfic or original, you do it for yourself. It's great to get fb, praise, and a dialogue going with readers, but seriously if the writing itself doesn't please you, go do something else forgodsakes. Mmmkay, now that that's over with, what is this imagined audience? Well, I'm defining it as a specific person or group about whom you're thinking when you write, and whose fb makes you feel you've accomplished your goal.
Because that definition feels a. amorphous and r. really really wrong for some reason, let me give an example. Not to toot my own horn but toot toot, it's about the las fic I wrote, Ten Things That Pull Apart And One Thing That Holds Together. Now, I wrote this fic first and foremost because I love B/A, and what I love about it is the idea of "love overcoming all obstacles" ; despite the fact that that idea is cliched, a deep fanciful part of me really wants me to believe it's true. So I wrote a fic about obstacles to see whether I thought love could overcome them (for those of you who are curious, I'm unsure of the results. Half the time writing that fic, I thought: "B/A would never work." The other half I thought, "love is like oxygen love gives you wings all you need is love /Moulin Rouge"). So, let's hear another mmmkay, because that's my motivation for writing it and it was for myself first and foremost, but I did on occasion think about who would be reading, and that's what I'm calling my "imagined audience".
A large part of my imagined audience were the people with whom I've listened to and discussed B/A who don't think the 'ship is feasible, practical, or realistic. A lot of people who don't prefer B/A as a 'ship think it's a puppy love, or a juvenile love, or a fairytale love, that was never meant to last or never meant to be. I wanted to respond to those people by saying, "In reality, this couple would have these types of problems. But it doesn't make their love any less real."
To narrow it down, the idea for this fic was actually a specific response to some people who replied directly to, or spoke of elsewhere, this post about what B/A means to me. There were at least two specific responses that were very respectful toward my feelings about B/A, but mentioned that I hadn't really addressed some of the issues that might arise with the 'ship post NFA (particularly issues that had to do with both Buffy and Angel being very alpha personalities). I wanted to respond to those people by saying, "Thses are the issues that would arise post NFA, and this is how they would deal with it. It might not be perfect, and it might not even work, but the love that's there is what I love about the 'ship."
To narrow it down even further, when I was writing the fic, I kept asking myself, "but what would![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
germaine_pet say?" I think Lynne is a terrific writer; one of the best short piece writers I've ever read period, fanfic or not. I also happen to know that she doesn't prefer to read about B/A, that the 'ship just doesn't appeal to her. She has mentioned several times various reasons why she thinks they're better off and more interesting as characters not together post-NFA. I wanted to take into consideration the things she's said over the months I've known her, and use that to really fully examine what I thought about B/A. Mostly, I wanted her or someone who feels as she does to be able to read it and say, "Yeah, these are the issues I think this couple would have. And yeah, the way you've presented this, I can see where you're coming from about B/A standing a chance, even if I don't agree."
The other thing about thinking about Lynne reading this piece, is she and several other fic authors whom I really respect have said that sometimes while my ideas are good and the words are really interesting, the prose gets convoluted and obscures what I'm trying to say. So, in efforts to make the writing more precise and elegant, I limited myself to exactly 300 words per section. It wasn't about making Lynne say, "Wow, 300 words!" or "Hey, you almost managed not to get bogged down!"--it was about me improving my writing. But in the effort of doing so, I kept imagining Lynne as beta saying, "TKP, you don't need that bit." Sometimes I said, "hey, shut up, Lynne," but sometimes I listened.
The end of this little anecdote is I finished the story, and just plain didn't want to tinker with it any more. I had done what I wanted and felt satisfied. But when I posted the story, I began to wonder whether it'd worked or not or whether I should've waited or worked harder. But then I got fb from Lynne, and it was pretty much like a reassurance that yeah, my work there was done. It's not a perfect story; it's not as good as it could be--but it's what I wanted to do. The same thing happened double whenstultiloquentia fb'ed--she's a fabulous writer who writes fabulous B/S. We've discussed on and off the merits and B/A and why it does or doesn't appeal to us, or how we think the 'ship worked. So when she said I'd addressed arguments she might've brought up against the 'ship, I was all, "yay! I wrote it for people like you, baby!" Stulti has also mentioned how my words tend to get cuaght up in themselves, and she said I'd done a good job with that this time, so triple yay!
There are other aspects to imagined audience. In the case described above, I was making a specific case for a specific 'ship for people who don't necessarily 'ship that way. But the idea of writing specifically for 'shippers has been discussed at length: for instance, S/X fics that don't explain the why or wherefores of Spike and Xander getting together, and so are mainly only accessible to people who already 'ship them.
Often, imagined audience has nothing to do with 'ship. For instance, just to show you what an arrogantprick inside-out-prick I am, I wrote Blood Types because I'd just read several stylistic, poetic, very formatted pieces that everyone was fawing over and I myself thought they were absolute crap, so I wrote a piece that I felt was all three but that I also felt was good stuff. My imagined audience were the same people who were fawning over those other pieces.
Sometimes, you're not trying to prove anything to an imagined audience, you're just writing something you think they'd like. I wrote Down There In The Reeperbahn thinking of a few people whose fics and meta I'd read who seemed to be really into the patterns and echos in AtS, Angel's life, and especially Connor's place in all that. Sometimes when I'm working on Best Souvenir I just think of my beta,a2zmom, and whether she would say, "but that doesn't make sense" or not. And there are certain people who, every single time, I think, "dude, if they liked this, I'd feel all tingely, just because it's them." That's usually writers I really respect--two of whom I've already mentioned: stultiloquentia and germaine_pet.
So, the point.
-What fics have you written with imaginary audiences in mind? Why?
-What's a group that's been your imaginary audience?
-Who's a person who's been your imaginary audience? (and name names, people. I was shy to saygermaine_pet at first because for a moment she was an imaginary audience for this post, and I imagined her saying, "Dude, that TKP is a suck up! Plus she stalks me and I think she smells. Also now if I don't fb does that make me a bad person? WHAT IS HER CHILDHOOD TRAUMA?" But I totally sucked it up, and suspected Lynne could handle it, too.)
-Is there a particular person or group who is often your imaginary audience, and if so, who are they?
-Who's that person who's fb you often or always think about when you write, and against your better judgment and confidence in yourself, feel kinda vindicated when you get?
-Who's your imagined unaudience? Who have you hoped would never read what you've written? Besides your mom and that skeevy guy you saw once at Wal-Mart who followed you for a full ten minutes and got some of his guano on your shoe, are there sometimes people on lj who you hope might skip on by such and such fic? Ever write something knowing so and so will dislike it, and hope they don't read it and think less of your writing for it?
So, recently a couple people have got me thinking about the concept of "imagined audience." Let me say first that I hope if you write, fanfic or original, you do it for yourself. It's great to get fb, praise, and a dialogue going with readers, but seriously if the writing itself doesn't please you, go do something else forgodsakes. Mmmkay, now that that's over with, what is this imagined audience? Well, I'm defining it as a specific person or group about whom you're thinking when you write, and whose fb makes you feel you've accomplished your goal.
Because that definition feels a. amorphous and r. really really wrong for some reason, let me give an example. Not to toot my own horn but toot toot, it's about the las fic I wrote, Ten Things That Pull Apart And One Thing That Holds Together. Now, I wrote this fic first and foremost because I love B/A, and what I love about it is the idea of "love overcoming all obstacles" ; despite the fact that that idea is cliched, a deep fanciful part of me really wants me to believe it's true. So I wrote a fic about obstacles to see whether I thought love could overcome them (for those of you who are curious, I'm unsure of the results. Half the time writing that fic, I thought: "B/A would never work." The other half I thought, "love is like oxygen love gives you wings all you need is love /Moulin Rouge"). So, let's hear another mmmkay, because that's my motivation for writing it and it was for myself first and foremost, but I did on occasion think about who would be reading, and that's what I'm calling my "imagined audience".
A large part of my imagined audience were the people with whom I've listened to and discussed B/A who don't think the 'ship is feasible, practical, or realistic. A lot of people who don't prefer B/A as a 'ship think it's a puppy love, or a juvenile love, or a fairytale love, that was never meant to last or never meant to be. I wanted to respond to those people by saying, "In reality, this couple would have these types of problems. But it doesn't make their love any less real."
To narrow it down, the idea for this fic was actually a specific response to some people who replied directly to, or spoke of elsewhere, this post about what B/A means to me. There were at least two specific responses that were very respectful toward my feelings about B/A, but mentioned that I hadn't really addressed some of the issues that might arise with the 'ship post NFA (particularly issues that had to do with both Buffy and Angel being very alpha personalities). I wanted to respond to those people by saying, "Thses are the issues that would arise post NFA, and this is how they would deal with it. It might not be perfect, and it might not even work, but the love that's there is what I love about the 'ship."
To narrow it down even further, when I was writing the fic, I kept asking myself, "but what would
germaine_pet say?" I think Lynne is a terrific writer; one of the best short piece writers I've ever read period, fanfic or not. I also happen to know that she doesn't prefer to read about B/A, that the 'ship just doesn't appeal to her. She has mentioned several times various reasons why she thinks they're better off and more interesting as characters not together post-NFA. I wanted to take into consideration the things she's said over the months I've known her, and use that to really fully examine what I thought about B/A. Mostly, I wanted her or someone who feels as she does to be able to read it and say, "Yeah, these are the issues I think this couple would have. And yeah, the way you've presented this, I can see where you're coming from about B/A standing a chance, even if I don't agree."The other thing about thinking about Lynne reading this piece, is she and several other fic authors whom I really respect have said that sometimes while my ideas are good and the words are really interesting, the prose gets convoluted and obscures what I'm trying to say. So, in efforts to make the writing more precise and elegant, I limited myself to exactly 300 words per section. It wasn't about making Lynne say, "Wow, 300 words!" or "Hey, you almost managed not to get bogged down!"--it was about me improving my writing. But in the effort of doing so, I kept imagining Lynne as beta saying, "TKP, you don't need that bit." Sometimes I said, "hey, shut up, Lynne," but sometimes I listened.
The end of this little anecdote is I finished the story, and just plain didn't want to tinker with it any more. I had done what I wanted and felt satisfied. But when I posted the story, I began to wonder whether it'd worked or not or whether I should've waited or worked harder. But then I got fb from Lynne, and it was pretty much like a reassurance that yeah, my work there was done. It's not a perfect story; it's not as good as it could be--but it's what I wanted to do. The same thing happened double when
stultiloquentia fb'ed--she's a fabulous writer who writes fabulous B/S. We've discussed on and off the merits and B/A and why it does or doesn't appeal to us, or how we think the 'ship worked. So when she said I'd addressed arguments she might've brought up against the 'ship, I was all, "yay! I wrote it for people like you, baby!" Stulti has also mentioned how my words tend to get cuaght up in themselves, and she said I'd done a good job with that this time, so triple yay!There are other aspects to imagined audience. In the case described above, I was making a specific case for a specific 'ship for people who don't necessarily 'ship that way. But the idea of writing specifically for 'shippers has been discussed at length: for instance, S/X fics that don't explain the why or wherefores of Spike and Xander getting together, and so are mainly only accessible to people who already 'ship them.
Often, imagined audience has nothing to do with 'ship. For instance, just to show you what an arrogant
Sometimes, you're not trying to prove anything to an imagined audience, you're just writing something you think they'd like. I wrote Down There In The Reeperbahn thinking of a few people whose fics and meta I'd read who seemed to be really into the patterns and echos in AtS, Angel's life, and especially Connor's place in all that. Sometimes when I'm working on Best Souvenir I just think of my beta,
a2zmom, and whether she would say, "but that doesn't make sense" or not. And there are certain people who, every single time, I think, "dude, if they liked this, I'd feel all tingely, just because it's them." That's usually writers I really respect--two of whom I've already mentioned: stultiloquentia and germaine_pet.So, the point.
-What fics have you written with imaginary audiences in mind? Why?
-What's a group that's been your imaginary audience?
-Who's a person who's been your imaginary audience? (and name names, people. I was shy to say
germaine_pet at first because for a moment she was an imaginary audience for this post, and I imagined her saying, "Dude, that TKP is a suck up! Plus she stalks me and I think she smells. Also now if I don't fb does that make me a bad person? WHAT IS HER CHILDHOOD TRAUMA?" But I totally sucked it up, and suspected Lynne could handle it, too.)-Is there a particular person or group who is often your imaginary audience, and if so, who are they?
-Who's that person who's fb you often or always think about when you write, and against your better judgment and confidence in yourself, feel kinda vindicated when you get?
-Who's your imagined unaudience? Who have you hoped would never read what you've written? Besides your mom and that skeevy guy you saw once at Wal-Mart who followed you for a full ten minutes and got some of his guano on your shoe, are there sometimes people on lj who you hope might skip on by such and such fic? Ever write something knowing so and so will dislike it, and hope they don't read it and think less of your writing for it?
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Don't you tell me to shut up, missy. I AM INSIDE YOUR BRAIN!!! Also, you smell.
Seriously, I'm flattered that you would think about me when you're writing. It makes me kind of tingly in naughty places. But you know, I *have* been known to be wrong. In some alternate universe somewhere. ;)
Kita is my imaginary audience, because she betas most of my stuff, and I know she's going to kick my ass; so I try to whip it into some kind of shape before I send it off to her just to cut down on the bruising. :D Other than that... it's going to sound pompous and pretentious and possibly schizophrenic, but the *characters* are my audience. I don't write with a particular reader in mind, but I do try to hear the characters' voices in my head. I want to make it true to *them*, if that makes any sense. I'm not sure it does, even in my own brain. *slinks off*
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Oh, sure, everyone's wrong. Doesn't mean they aren't a fantastic voice in your head saying, "you add that word just for the rhyme and I will keeeell you with my brain. Or, you know, your brain."
I don't think the thing about characters sounds pompous or any of those other p words. Also, not schizo. I think it's something everyone should do. You don't want Spike suddenly turning to Buffy, raising a finger and saying sardonically, "Angel would never call me snookums; I'm outta here." Because Buffy and Angel would be left in the room and you would be left writing B/A. Ha! Writing fanfic is also about giving the characters what they want or need or precisely what they don't want or need, so it seems like just good writing to ask yourself, "okay, what would Spike want to hear right now, and what wouldn't he?"
But I was more interested in RL imagined audience, because imo trying to hear the characters should be a given. I don't always have an imagined audience, and when I do I rarely think of them. This last story and Blood Types were the two most influenced by the issue.
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You slut!
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People who like fantasy/horror/adventure/romance.
People who like BtVS fan fiction.
People who like Buffy/Spike fan fiction.
People who do not like Buffy/Spike fan fiction.
People who like unsouled redemption stories.
People who don't like unsouled redemption stories.
People who say "How exactly are we defining redemption this week, anyway?"
People who complain that people who write unsouled S/B always make Spike a fluffy puppy.
People who don't think you can put Buffy in a long-term relationship with unsouled Spike and make it believable.
People who don't think you can write interesting stories about long-term relationships, period.
I wrote The Sure Thing for several reasons–I'd wanted to write a story from a minion's POV for some time, and I'd wanted to write a Damon Runyon pastiche (in the non-Harry Potter sense of the word) for some time. And wrastling with Three Deep was making me crazy and a I wanted a break. But it didn't come together until
But I think that's an exception; I don't often write stories with particular people in mind, more... demographic groups, I guess. And me, because I am one of those sad pathetic egotists who enjoys reading her own stories. There are a number of people whose writing and whose taste I admire, and I am extra-happy if one of them gives me fb. But I really, really love getting the fb that says "Usually I hate Spuffy, but yours I like."
I don't think I have an unaudience. I've never posted a story I hoped someone wouldn't read. I know that with every decision I make about where to take the series I disappoint some people, and sometimes I feel a little glum about that, but you can't please everyone; that's impossible. Though I'm always secretly nervous that I actually suck quite a lot, and people are leaving ""Great story!" fb to be polite and then IM'ing one another:
BNF1: o god did you see her latest? Total crap.
BNF2: I stopped reading her ages ago.
BNF1: Lucky you.
(btw, I really liked "Ten Things." Though I do not so much think B/A can't work as like S/B much better. *g*)
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Anywho, if I am writing towards an audience, it does tend to be toward a group rather than a specific person. But often someone will say a specific thing that gets me motivated: I forgot to mention, but I actually put pen to paper on the Ten Things B/A fic when I was reading some random meta about something else that said most fandoms tended to be apocalyptic, so we're rarely interesting in watching the characters brush their teeth. I, being B/A obsessed, am actually VERY interested in Buffy and Angel brushing their teeth, so there you go.
I like how some of your audiences contradict each other. Way to go for exploring new directions. And I don't think you need to worry about people leaving nice fb just to be nice. Although I don't know about those BNFs. I know how meeeeen and nasty they are ;o)
(And thanks! Totally understand that.)
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So..what are you working on?
And what an interesting post. My answers will seem arrogant, for sure, but I can't see answering you with BS. So, here goes. I've written quite a few of my AtS fics to thumb my nose at Whedon, Greenwalt, Minear, Fury et al to fill in scenes thay *should* have either written better, or written to begin with. They have been the target audience for a significant number of my Angel fics.
That said, I was nervous when I wrote Lamb Of God because I had read
I don't write to
Now, I've never written long-form B/A, but I'm about to. And you can bet every penny in your piggy bank that I will be writing it to
And I really identify with your need to write whatever the style of the day might be, and knock it off its axis. Only I do that with characterization. I'm a characterization freak. Right now, I'm writing a fair amount of Bones slash, which has very limited appeal. But truly, I write that ship because I'm compelled to write it, and that little stinker Hodgins will not let go of my brain. Do I pray that
(Ditto for RPS because I write David Boreanaz, and her DB is one of the best ever written. You know how I know? Cuz Dave told me. Uh huh. Yes, he did.okay, so it was imaginary!dave, but he's real to me, dammit!)
There are so many people whose feedback makes me beyond proud and happy; too numerous to mention here.
Ever write something knowing so and so will dislike it, and hope they don't read it and think less of your writing for it? Almost. i've written something I know someone will dislike, and I hope they don't give me shit for it. Oh yeah. The thinking less of me? Nah, I'm gonna reap that bitter harvest from my personal posts, not my fic! Fic is so subjective and there's never accounting for taste, so I don't get my feeling hurt over it.
Thanks for letting me ramble on ... I love your thinky thoughts!
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Working on? As in fic? I'm trying to finish this big damn B/A thing. Also, B/A/S/F. No, I don't know what happened either.
ZOMG YOU'RE WRITING B/A!!! Long B/A? I love you! *more flowers* Here, take the whole damn bouquet.
Ahem.
I almost put a disclaimer somewhere in about not being afraid to answer how you really feel, and then I got all huffy about how I wish that was never an issue in this journal. Anyway, I don't think you're arrogant; I think you're confident and I think that's great thing in a writer. Besides, every once in a while we really can Do It Better. I just watched Hells Bells. *rolls eyes*
I don't consciously wonder "what would Kel do" when I'm writing. It's more putting it out there, holding my breath, and hoping like hell she either never sees it, or if she sees it she doesn't think it sucks.
Yeah, there are different levels of it. I mean, I never sit down and say, okay, I'm going to write Cordy just like lostakasha would write her. But if I was specifically thinking of you when writing the fic, I might think things like, "I bet lostakasha would like this part", or "I'm not sure this is really how lostakasha characterizes Cordy. Wait, is this how *I* characterize Cordy? Let me check back." But the times when I do have an imagined audience, it usually isn't so up close and personal as that. It's more me trying to do what's in my head and kinda, just a bit, hoping the other person appreciates it when I've gotten to the point when I'm happy with it, too.
I think of chrisleeoctaves and a2zmom writing B/A, definitely. Lynne, not so much. With a fic like the "Ten Things..." thing I talked about above, definitely, but with most of the B/A I do, esp. long fic, I tend to think about B/Aers when I imagine who's reading.
And I really identify with your need to write whatever the style of the day might be, and knock it off its axis.
I tend not to do that so much; only I did it very specifically with Blood Types. I do like taking a style and subverting it, but it's usually not with a specific idea to prove something to anyone that I do it.
Right now, I'm writing a fair amount of Bones slash, which has very limited appeal.
I haven't had time to read much of it and I'm looking forward to it. I do find it funny that when you're writing an unconventional pairing or a character that's not particularly well liked, you really can't help but think of the people who *do* like it. Possibly because one thinks such people will be the only ones reading it. I know whenever I think about even getting near Connor I think of Kita and Ros Fod and Stoney.
Ditto for RPS because I write David Boreanaz, and her DB is one of the best ever written. You know how I know? Cuz Dave told me. Uh huh. Yes, he did.okay, so it was imaginary!dave, but he's real to me, dammit!)
And the funny thing about RPS, I think, is you can never be *sure* what's the proper "characterization" (one might argue that you can't in fanfic either, but you *can* argue that you get to see private moments and defining aspects of life in fictional characters, and this helps you see way better who they are than any actor or actress). The nice thing there is you can decide on a characterization, and as for me and RPS, I tend to stick to the authors whose characterizations I know I like, and not try new things. And I've also noticed lots of RPSers write for/to each other, possibly for this very reason.
I'll have to try Snow's. I don't think I've ever read her DB.
Oh yeah. The thinking less of me? Nah, I'm gonna reap that bitter harvest from my personal posts, not my fic! Fic is so subjective and there's never accounting for taste, so I don't get my feeling hurt over it.
I was thinking not so much hurt as...discomfort. Yeah, I don't want my mommy to read my slash. Or I kinda do but I'd flip if she did. In that vein, there's one or two people on my flist who I just shudder to think of reading any incest I might write in the future.
And thanks for rambling! I love your responses, always!
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And it's because I AGREE with their/your characterization of that particular person, and also have particular and strong writing styles that are above the norm, or better than most. So, yeah. I don't necessarily write that FOR you four, but I definitely like HEARING BACK from that group when I write that character, if that makes sense. This latest "fairy tale" fic I wrote because I had to. I got an idea and I couldn't stop thinking about it. I certainly don't want to be a writer that writes solely for feedback, which would be the "did U liek? Tel lme or I dun post new fic, ZOMG!" variety. So... I write because I want to/have to, and hearing back is just icing.
Now. When it comes to anything I'm writing to be simply balls-out funny? That's ALL for me. If I laugh, I know it's funny. I'm super snotty when it comes to that stuff, and in contrast, the level of feedback isn't a big deal. I know that humor is polarizing, so *shrugs* Not everyone will like it, and the people who *I* think are funny will usually respond. It's the
But stuff I take seriously? Yeah. It's nice to know you've hit something out of the park. (And conversely, it's okay - for me, at least - to know when I DON'T hit it out of the park. I almost feel like this last thing I wrote was a failure in many ways, because the people who are the hard core Connor writers/readers weren't really there talking about it. Which just sounds lame and "woe is me." But you did ask for honesty. :) (And seriously, you know this for truth: I'm good with hearing the why nots.)
And I'm finding that I use very specific betas for specific writings. Style-wise, varying fandoms, etc. Because I need someone who's on the same page as me.
Re: UN-audience: I can't name names on this one, but I was recently friended (um... over the past few months) by someone who is a staunch supporter of the Cult Of
notNice over one of my goofy humor pieces, and I'm STILL thinking it's a set-up. Hahahaha.And I'm totally with you on the fangirling of
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I'm finding it a hard thing to discuss, because I *always* write for myself. It's always because I have some idea and can't get rid of it, or want to see how it plays out--just as you say with your recent fic. But while I'm doing it *sometimes*, as with this last one, I'm thinking, "hey, would a non-B/Aer see this?" and sometimes, "would Lynne tell me to delete this word?" And sometimes it only exists in the sense of, "I wonder if so and so will leave positive fb on this one", you know?
When it comes to anything I'm writing to be simply balls-out funny? That's ALL for me.
I think this is a great thing. Because I often laugh too.
I almost feel like this last thing I wrote was a failure in many ways, because the people who are the hard core Connor writers/readers weren't really there talking about it. Which just sounds lame and "woe is me." But you did ask for honesty. :)
It doesn't sound lame. And I know the feeling. I've never been disappointed about the amount of fb I get, but once or twice I was kinda sad when such and such person apparently didn't read it or worse, didn't like it. However, I submit to you that viewing it as a failure solely for that reason isn't necessarily sense-making. There's lots of factors besides goodness of a story that goes into whether someone fbs or not. I understand the disappointment, but I think a story about Connor that got as much fb as you did is actually quite a success, considering that over all the character is not well liked.
And I'm finding that I use very specific betas for specific writings. Style-wise, varying fandoms, etc. Because I need someone who's on the same page as me.
I'd only considered that before insofar as character went. I'd send a B/A fic to a different person than a fic about Connor. I'd *always* send A/S to Lynne, because I know she'd say yes. ;o)
I've never read any
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You ask such good questions
-What's a group that's been your imaginary audience?
-Who's a person who's been your imaginary audience?
I wrote my one piece of Batman slash thinking about Te, because she asked me for it, and dude. TE.
Jess & I wrote Six Foot Deep as a reaction to the fluffy-fying of the Spuffy ship, but it wasn't so much a "ha, you guys are nuts, here's how it ought to be" as a "wow, we are clearly watching a different show, and here is how we happen to see it."
I wrote Fanged Four Fairytales with Maze in mind, believe it or not. He likes smut, and he came up with the merry-go-round idea, although he didn't know exactly how I was gonna use it. Heh. I imagine him as audience a lot, actually, because he is not a fanfic reader, and not at all a slash fan. If I can sell him something, I know I've done my job.
Cracktrailer fic is always for the same small group of fans; and I try really hard to tell the story I want, but still kind of be true to the like, five people that made the verse happen and live on in the first place. Especially Witling.
I often imagine a running beta in my head, although the voice changes (Jess, Daki, Fod, others) it usually says the same things. Mostly "Jesus God, you can use half the amount of words for that", and "Hello, purple".
-Is there a particular person or group who is often your imaginary audience, and if so, who are they?
Hmm. No. The above are pretty much exceptions, not rules. More often than not, I have a story in my brain that wants out, and if I don't tell it the way it goes, I can't tell it at all. Audience be damned. Hm. I don't know what that means about me as a writer.
And Angel fic is always always just for me. And possibly Angel if I admit my psychoses out loud.
-Who's that person who's fb you often or always think about when you write, and against your better judgment and confidence in yourself, feel kinda vindicated when you get?
Depends on the fic- getting good fb from someone who is a known fan of a certain character or ship that the story is about is always a high. Getting fb from authors whose talent I really respect is also a huge deal. And no I won't do a list of names there, although I would still drop dead if Anna S. ever left me feedback on anything.
-Who's your imagined unaudience? Who have you hoped would never read what you've written? Besides your mom and that skeevy guy you saw once at Wal-Mart who followed you for a full ten minutes and got some of his guano on your shoe, are there sometimes people on lj who you hope might skip on by such and such fic? Ever write something knowing so and so will dislike it, and hope they don't read it and think less of your writing for it?
Nah, I am a whore. I want everybody to read everything I write, and I would rather have concrit from someone than have someone skip it. Wow. I am a whore.
Thanks!
"Jesus God, you can use half the amount of words for that", and "Hello, purple".
Your voices, they are my voices. Except they take twice the amount of words to say those things, because they are in my head.
Audience be damned. Hm. I don't know what that means about me as a writer.
Possibly I worded the question wrong. Anyway, I feel like what it means is that you are a writer and not a ...not-writer. I write for pretty much the same reasons and in the end, it has to meet my standards or kaput. Sometimes there's a very specific voice in my head and she's bringing up things to address (and the voice might sound like someone, like Lynne in this last fic) but it's not someone who's ever going to tell me what or how to write. But if I do have an imagined audience, it's not written so much for them as with a head tilt on the screen and a, "what would personA think of this part?" or a "wonder if personB will like this fic?" It doesn't change where I go, but it gives me stuff to think about in the dead times when the story is stuck somewhere.
Nah, I am a whore. I want everybody to read everything I write, and I would rather have concrit from someone than have someone skip it. Wow. I am a whore.
You don't get paid; you're a slut. You brazen hussy. Anyway, I often prefer con crit over purely positive fb, and always over one line "good job"s.
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*dusts you off*
I'm trying to sort out whether or not I could say I write for myself. I've written some poetry I don't ever intend to share with anyone, but my motivations for prose-writing are ... less pure.
I don't need to write. You hear authors declare, now and then, that writing is a compulsion, practically as necessary as breathing. I love it, I think I'm decent at it but not stunningly great, but I just don't have that vital, driving ambition. What I do, instead, is daydream. And *that's* a compulsion. So I guess you could say, I write so much for myself that I don't need to write it down on paper. I daydream dialogue and crafted prose, spend hours refining a scene just as it would appear on the page, but it stays in my head. Two reasons: 1) Getting from one flimsy scene to something pointed and coherent enough to publish is like canoeing from the end of my dock to Deer Island with a teaspoon. 2) Quite a lot of what I dream about is either tooth-rotting schmoopodrama or fanfic of other people's fanfic!
When something gets written down *and* finished *and* published, I'm gratifying an entirely different need, which is for somebody to say, "Gee, she's smart." That, or, "Gee, Stulti, you'll never be really good until you do this, this and this," because I'm interested in the craft, and want badly to understand it, even if my ambition never makes my own writing great.
So while I love every last brief, uncomplicated squee, I'm really writing for this vaguely-defined group of smartypants, in hopes they'll pop in and say something specific about what I do well or ill. Besides that, I'm just writing for fen. Geeks like me, who get the genre, and why it's worth contributing to. Like
Specific smartypants? Erm ... you. Not just returning the compliment, either; you frequently get all slobbery with love, which is an ego boost from a writer I admire, but you also tend to throw in observations that prove that you got something important I was trying to say, or make clear which parts worked and why.
Rather a muddled answer, altogether, but it's midnight.
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Writing is a compulsion for me for, funny enough, similar reasons to your day dreams--I do the day dream thing but I need to write it down to find out what happens next. If I don't write it down in something like Best Souvenir I lose the thread and forget what happened so far, especially as far as character development (not so much events). Plus as
But I also like word play, and that doesn't become fun until it's written out on paper. I have no idea why.
That, or, "Gee, Stulti, you'll never be really good until you do this, this and this," because I'm interested in the craft, and want badly to understand it, even if my ambition never makes my own writing great.
I never thought about it that way. I guess I feel like for me someone else telling me I did a good job with it, *or* telling me I didn't do a good job with it wouldn't satisfy my need to understand it because the it isn't something outside myself I'm trying to grasp. Perhaps it is for you; I suspect it is because you use the word "craft". I don't know what word I would use, but often I feel like what I'm interested in and wanting to understand is the compulsion within mself. I'd like it to be validated by outside forces and sometimes I'm disappointed when it's not, but in the end it's about this thing in me.
But when I write Spuffy, I'm not writing to prove a point.
The B/A I write, most of which is unseen at this point, isn't either. But the last definitely was.
I speak of my brain and not my hot, tight little bod.
Good to know.
Not just returning the compliment
Heh, thanks.
you frequently get all slobbery with love,
your writing makes my speaking English good!
she writes short stuff (so far, heehaw!), like me, so I feel less inadequate.
This puzzles me. It bothers me how long most of my stories are, and how I can't seem to think of snapshot scenes, or quick little stories, and feel like I should be able to do them if I really want to write. Then again, I have a rather violent dislike for much of short fiction in the published world. I like fanfic better in that corner.
As usual, you give me things to think about. Thank you!
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-What fics have you written with imaginary audiences in mind? Why?
Well, I do mostly write for me. Because I am a huge fic snob and when I can't find the story I want to satisfy a particular itch, I write it myself. That said, I am always thinking about what certain people might say when the fic is posted. This group isn't actually a shipper group because I think- mostly- B/A shippers don't particularly like my stuff.
I have written certain stories for particular people. Waiting For The Sun was written for
What's a group that's been your imaginary audience?
Well, I guess I sorta started to answer this. I write for other writers more than I write for readers...but I guess that's part of the curse (or benefit, you pick) of LJ. Lots of times you have readers, but they never tell you they've read. So more often than not, you hear from other writers.
-Who's a person who's been your imaginary audience?
There are probably 10 people whose comments I look for. Sometimes they're going to beta and I depend on them to kick my ass and they do.
In the beginning my audience was *always* B/A shippers. But you know what...I had some negative experiences with that. And I found that I was trying too hard to please people and not thinking about the craft and what I wanted to write. So I don't do it anymore.
TBC...
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Well, here's the thing about FB- if people leave it, it's mostly positive. And then you get to sort of depend on the same people to leave that fb and when they don't, you start to wonder whether the story sucks. But that said, the best fb always comes from the people whose work I admire. I always feel absolutely puffed-up when
-Who's your imagined unaudience? Who have you hoped would never read what you've written? Besides your mom and that skeevy guy you saw once at Wal-Mart who followed you for a full ten minutes and got some of his guano on your shoe, are there sometimes people on lj who you hope might skip on by such and such fic? Ever write something knowing so and so will dislike it, and hope they don't read it and think less of your writing for it?
I don't have an unimagined audience. I have stories that, for whatever reason, I felt compelled to write at the time...and I've posted them (the last one, for instance) with the caveat that is was too sweet...and what happened- people liked it. Strangely enough- some of my more loyal fb-ers from ages ago commented even though they haven't commented on other stories which I have thought were much better, imho. So, shrugs. Who knows. At this point, 5 or 6 years into fandom I'm not bothered by who reads my stuff. Geesh- my boss has read my stuff. *g*
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Also, I'm very used to writing for an audience and I think by keeping one in mind it stops you being too self-indulgent.
Great point. If you're writing just to please people you'll never succeed, but if you're writing to please yourself and using audience as like a tool--a sort of backboard--a lot of good can come from that, which is one of the main things I wanted to address with this post.
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However, since the fans of fluff are generally few and far between, and most everyone else derides it, when I write, I don't think of if Person A is going to like it, if BNF #24013 will like it (because I know they won't). . . if it makes me happy, I write it. My OTP is no secret and the fact that I'd like to see them happy post-NFA is no secret. I write those stories because damnit, I want my favorite characters to be happy for once. Now, if I'm writing *for* someone (say, a ficathon request or a birthday ficlet) then yes, I write with that person in mind because I'd like for them to actually like the result. But is that the driving force? No. Especially not when it comes to other fics I write--in a way, they are very self-masturbatory because they are for *me*, the stories I write make *me* happy, make *me* laugh, etc.
I have a very small readership, in part because of the type of stories I write but mostly, I'm just not a very good writer. I have loyal feedbackers who I absolutely adore, but I think it's mostly a case of them being really nice people, not a reflection of the quality of my writing (which lacks, I know).
It doesn't bother me that the majority of fandom (a) thinks my stories are dumb or (b) doesn't even know I write stories because I'm so under the radar. I don't write because I *have* to--I could stop writing today and never think about it again. I don't write to try new forms, new styles. I write what I like, which happens to be fluff and/or HGTV crossovers. Add in the fact that it's B/A and I've reduced an audience of about 50 to about one or two. It's hard to imagine an audience when it's composed of only yourself. ;)
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I really resent this. I also resent it in published literature as well. Stories with happy endings are considered "low brow", whereas if everyone dies or gets sexually molested or kills someone, it's the highest form of literature. PLEASE.
But is that the driving force? No. Especially not when it comes to other fics I write--in a way, they are very self-masturbatory because they are for *me*, the stories I write make *me* happy, make *me* laugh, etc.
That's the best way to go at fanfic, imo. I don't think that the audience should ever be the "driving force" in any kind of writing, period. But if one is an original writer, one should write to satisfy the inner critic--and the inner critic can't be lazy. But for fanfic, I think first and foremost the most important thing is to please yourself. I started posting fanfic because it's something I do anyway, and if I like it, others might--not the other way around.
Add in the fact that it's B/A and I've reduced an audience of about 50 to about one or two.
I wonder why that is? Is it just me, or does it feel like the number of B/Aers is seriously tiny?
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As for my own writing, in general I feel I've gotten way off analyzing myself. To a negative degree. I don't think about what I'm doing; I don't revise, I don't beta, I don't really pay attention. I get an idea and I run with it. And then I feel guilty, but still lazy.
In the case of Kissing the Frog, I wrote it as a response to other things I'd read that were completely unrealistic as to character and canon. I threw The Phantom of Manhattan across the room and began typing. About half an hour later, I had my vignette. Then I thought, hey, lots of stupid phangirls will start bleeding from their eyes if I post this somewhere, so I made an ff.n account and did. That was four years ago, and I was very surprised to "get back online" this past December and find that people on LJ had read and remembered that story and recognized me.
So then it felt like I hadn't lived up to some kind of promise. I'd written than novella I sent you, but no one else has seen that because I don't think it's right. It's not done, and it's no longer accurate to my idea of how it should be. So, lazily, I post stories that come to me as kernels of ideas that need expression; mostly for the sake of getting that idea to the phantom fiction reading "public," not for the beauty of my writing. Not because I don't want to be good, but because I'm too lazy to spend lots of time on it. So I'll pop off something about the horse, or the shade, or the Persian, or a true-to-life Mary Sue, just because I feel it hasn't been said yet. In that sense, I'm writing for people I think haven't seen what I have to show, conceptually. There is a good bit of antagonism wrapped up in this, because I'm also attempting to directly challenge what phic is. Not structurally or stylistically, but in terms of emphasis.
So the basic answer is, I write for the people I'm going to piss off. And for the small group of people (you included--I *always* fervently hope you're reading my stuff) who realize what I'm doing.
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This is exactly what I mean. I'm not writing *for* those other people, but *thinking* about them helps get my juices flowing. I said to someone else, it's like brainstorming. Sure, I know the characters Buffy and Angel, but it hadn't really occured to me until someone else said it that they'd have terrible control issues if they were together. Perhaps I'd've come to that conclusion on my own if I tried to write a fic about them together post NFA, perhaps not. And I love our B/A discussions too! You and Stultiloquentia and rahirah make me understand B/S so much better.
In the case of Kissing the Frog, I wrote it as a response to other things I'd read that were completely unrealistic as to character and canon.
See, I love fanfic that's written because a good writer is annoyed at shitty characterization. And Kissing the Frog is an excellent excellent take on it. Most of the original fic I write, too, is a response to some published work or other that just sucked too much to bear.
Not because I don't want to be good, but because I'm too lazy to spend lots of time on it.
Well, with fanfiction, imo it should totally be about what satisfies you. I mean, I have trouble with the term *lazy* for not editing or pruning fanfiction if the point behind it is more to get an idea out there than have a perfect story. People have different motivations for writing fic, but in the end it's supposed to be fun. It's fun for me because I like it, but also because I get a chance to play at "publishing" and hearing responses, and I think in the long run it might improve my writing. This is why I really like to hone my stories. But not all people feel fanfic is helpful in that sense (I know you have your doubts), and some could care less about improving as a writer (I know that's not you, but it's lots!). With original writing it's another story altogether, imo.
I'm also attempting to directly challenge what phic is.
This is a thing I love in pieces of yours I've read. You know, when I first heard of PotO I thought it was the story of a good guy who has an ugly face, and the female heroine hates him for it until she learns to see beyond it. I thought it sounded so lame. Then I learned the real story--that he's a *bad* guy, and that's what I loved about the story. Trouble is, so many phangirls still think the former is true (except the part about Christine loving him because she's a h0r and I would be so much better for him omg let me go back in time!) A story like Kissing the Frog crashes those two ideas of what the story is together, and it turns from a fairytale tra la la into the truth: a horror story. It's cool.
mall group of people (you included--I *always* fervently hope you're reading my stuff)
I am! I am! It just takes me a while.
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Once it's out there, however, if certain people like it - you,
I do often write stories that are an indirect response to other stories or tropes I see a lot of.
For example, I got violently strangled by an evil plot bunny two days ago (I now understand Anya's rabbit fear) which starts out:
One evening, Buffy opened her door and found Angel standing there.
The story goes on in the next paragraph with Buffy thinking if this had been a chick flick they would have thrown themselves into each others arms and kissed madly and everything would have been fine. But instead Angel's almost catatonic and Buffy's rather resentful.
My brain, the brain of pain. The story is obviously a reaction to the myriad number of stories where the mad kissing and hugging and happily ever after is what happens.
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By responding I mean the kind of thing your new plot bunny is a response to--it's reactionary, in the way my Ten Things thing was reactionary, and in the way your Fairytale NY story was reactionary (that's why I looooove that story. I want to shove it in the face of all those fics, original novels, and stupid movies that make people leave their spouses for their first love/old flame. People move on, yo!) I'm really looking forward to reading your new bunny--because I hate stories that have them falling into each other's arms too. One thing I do rather like is when it's awkward and uncomfortable and they end up almost immediately having sex, and it's almost confirmation that they can't be together because afterwards it's more awkward and uncomfortable than before. I think I read a fic like that once.
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I've been thinking about audience lately, but more about audience as it relates to lj rather than specific fic. Mainly this is because I recently had a real life friend/ex-coworker who I recently added to my flist say, "Hannah, you use that word fandom a lot. I'm confused. What does it mean? Is it more than just being a fan of something?" And I went O_o. And scrambled and tripped all over myself trying to give some kind of logical explanation to someone who was not only a newbie to the concept, but only sort of cared to begin with. Probably a third of my flist is people I have met in rl, and while they may have some idea about fandom by virtue of having long convesations with me or being gamers/fanboys/sci-fi geeks/internet junkies in their own right, my ways are still not their ways. And when I use lj I write for fandom. I am hyper-aware of the fact I have an audience, but even when I'm writing about rl, the rl people on my flist are not in my head as the people who might be reading it.
Incidentally, it is those real life people who I don't want reading my fic and fannish. I cross my fingers and hope they scroll on by.
I'm very not prolific with fic, but I'll try to answer your questions the best I can. You want me to name, names? Where do I start? Kita. Lynne. Chrislee. Among others, depending on what I'm writing. The first fic I wrote was "All That's Best of Dark and Bright" and that one I have to say was really for me. There was no imagined audience in my head at that point; it was all about the fact that I was not okay with where NFA left me emotionally and I had to process that in order to make it okay. That's what that fic does. Of course, the first person to leave feedback was kita, and she spoiled me, so now she is absolutely in my head any time I'm writing anything involving Angel. I do crave her feedback, and I have to admit that there are other people on my flist that if I didn't hear from I would assume I'd done something wrong.
Who my imagined audience is does depend on what I'm writing. I wrote "Chosen Life," which is Willow-centric, for a ficathon for
When I wrote "Anamnesis" for the
The fic I wrote where I was most conscious of my audience was "Remembered." It's Buffy gen and almost more meta than fic and it was in direct response to Buffy bashing and Buffy wank. I wrote it mainly for catharsis, but it was definitely also written for people who don't like the character, to try and explain why I see her and interpret her story the way I do.
Seriously, this was a great question. It's a great debate too; I'm finding the comments and opinions in this thread really interesting.
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I definitely understand that difficulty--I don't know how to explain what it is. Particularly because people first can't grasp the idea of the obsession, how it can be interesting enough to devote so much time to--though yeah, talking to a gamer/et al would put you on a more even playing field. But you're right, it's different.
Incidentally, it is those real life people who I don't want reading my fic and fannish. I cross my fingers and hope they scroll on by.
Yeah, I was thinking about rl people some when I mentioned the "unaudience" idea. I mean, almost always people mention they don't want their family to read it, but what about rl friends with ljs? Or what about friends you've made online not through fandom?
I have to admit that there are other people on my flist that if I didn't hear from I would assume I'd done something wrong.
Mainly I think about people who I know know either the pairings or the ship well, because in some instances I may trust their judgement more than my own, especially if I feel to close to the story or if I have an agenda.
This is one of the issues I really wanted to get at. I guess I feel like having an imagined audience can really contribute to the fic because it gives you another POV from which to view the characters. In terms of this last story: I feel like I knew the characters pretty well, and if I had a question I could certainly go back to canon and decide for myself. But some issues brought up by other people were issues that just didn't occur to me to explore or write about, so when I went to write about them I thought about what those other people would say to help me keep track of what I thought.
And yeah, sometimes I'm just completely stuck on how to write a character, and feel like even if I'm very familiar with the canon I just don't know what so and so would do in a particular situation. A few times I've thought about how an author more versed in the character might do it, and it's helped me to discover what I myself feel about the character--whether it is in line with the other author's or not.
I wrote it mainly for catharsis, but it was definitely also written for people who don't like the character, to try and explain why I see her and interpret her story the way I do.
I just get a real kick out of stories written for such reasons, which is part of the reason I did this post. They're *for* ourselves when we write them, but they do engage in a dialogue with other people or other fics, and it's interesting to know when that's happening (it's not always self evident in the fic). And I'm definitely going to look into "Remembered" because there's not enough good Buffy gen in this world.
Thanks for answering! I'm glad you're interested in the topic--obviously, I am too!
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If I try to bring real people into my imaginary audience, even after I have a first draft, I get stalled. I start going, "Oh god, everyone who reads this is going to think I'm suicidal/crazily religious/an attention whore/etc." Mostly, when I write, I pretend that I'm writing in a vacuum, and the only person who will ever see my story is me. I'm a picky enough reader when I'm not actively looking for crack!fic that I trust my own judgment about what's fit to be seen. Mostly. Sometimes I let myself down, though.
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Are you talking about writing original fiction? Because I'm not sure I've ever had an imaginary audience writing any serious original story, and I actually feel like it makes things more difficult. Even though I don't often have an imaginary audience in fanfic, thinking about it kinda helps me find my own direction, where I want to go. Most of the time I get a compulsion to write and I have to or I'll go boom, but on the parts where I get stuck it's kinda pleasing in a rather shameful way to reassure myself with, "so and so might appreciate this."
Anyway, if you are talking about original writing, who are you talking about when you mention that bringing real people into your audience gets you doubting yourself? Family, teachers, friends? Now that I think about it, whenever I think about sending my writing to a publishing company or literary magazine, that's when I start thinking, "why did I write this?" I know why, but the doubt sets in anyway.
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OK, I think that there is something similar going on sometimes when I pick betas for a specific fic. Like with some of the Angel fics that I have written that
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What I meant by "imaginary" is that you're not really writing *for* that audience--you don't care if they see it or not, but you're using them as your backboard, and think about how they might react as you write. I didn't mean imaginary as in not real people; on the contrary, as you observed, I am very interested in the RL/LJ people that make up an imaginary audience.
(One of the things I was curious about was whether one name would get mentioned a whole lot. And, well, one did:
And yeah, I definitely think picking a beta according to the fic type is a good idea. You want someone on the same page as you and someone you can trust to whip you into shape.
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In other words, my "imagined audience" stories are the ones in tiny fandoms, for unpopular pairings or characters, or crossovers which most people won't 'get' completely. I wrote if you can see where you're going (http://isis.arithmancy.net/wwds) - a het crossover between Due South and Wilby Wonderful - for people who, like me, have a soft spot for Frannie (DS) and want to see her happy (but not with her big crush Fraser, who belongs with Ray, of course) and who felt that Buddy (played by the same actor who played Fraser) and Carol (WW) were an ill-matched couple. Not a lot of feedback - but I loved the feedback I got, from people who 'got it' and saw the same logic I did in the pairing.
Here from metafandom.
(And that there was an example of writing for the IA.)
Everything post getting an LJ has had an IA in mind - once I had an FList rather than 'people who may or may not have me on Author Alert', individual opinions began to matter more. My RaiJack fic is based mostly at ff.net still, as is my gen, but Jack/Chase? My conventions of that pairing are firmly rooted in smut, and by extention, 'not ff.net'. So I worry much more about anything I produce for that pairing.
Naming names: My IA for J/C is
-Who's your imagined unaudience? Who have you hoped would never read what you've written? Besides your mom and that skeevy guy you saw once at Wal-Mart who followed you for a full ten minutes and got some of his guano on your shoe, are there sometimes people on lj who you hope might skip on by such and such fic? Ever write something knowing so and so will dislike it, and hope they don't read it and think less of your writing for it?
I'm weak - I tend more toward not posting or editing out racey bits if anyone on that list is likely to come across it. Even though my head knows that they'd love the racey bits, I fear that they'll think badly of me for it, and so it gets snipped.
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But I do think about what my BFF's feedback will be sometimes when I write. She is the one person who really cares what I have to say, and she helps me say it the best way I can. So yeah! =)