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Let's talk about imagined audience.
Ask me a question! Because I missed you.
* * *
So, recently a couple people have got me thinking about the concept of "imagined audience." Let me say first that I hope if you write, fanfic or original, you do it for yourself. It's great to get fb, praise, and a dialogue going with readers, but seriously if the writing itself doesn't please you, go do something else forgodsakes. Mmmkay, now that that's over with, what is this imagined audience? Well, I'm defining it as a specific person or group about whom you're thinking when you write, and whose fb makes you feel you've accomplished your goal.
Because that definition feels a. amorphous and r. really really wrong for some reason, let me give an example. Not to toot my own horn but toot toot, it's about the las fic I wrote, Ten Things That Pull Apart And One Thing That Holds Together. Now, I wrote this fic first and foremost because I love B/A, and what I love about it is the idea of "love overcoming all obstacles" ; despite the fact that that idea is cliched, a deep fanciful part of me really wants me to believe it's true. So I wrote a fic about obstacles to see whether I thought love could overcome them (for those of you who are curious, I'm unsure of the results. Half the time writing that fic, I thought: "B/A would never work." The other half I thought, "love is like oxygen love gives you wings all you need is love /Moulin Rouge"). So, let's hear another mmmkay, because that's my motivation for writing it and it was for myself first and foremost, but I did on occasion think about who would be reading, and that's what I'm calling my "imagined audience".
A large part of my imagined audience were the people with whom I've listened to and discussed B/A who don't think the 'ship is feasible, practical, or realistic. A lot of people who don't prefer B/A as a 'ship think it's a puppy love, or a juvenile love, or a fairytale love, that was never meant to last or never meant to be. I wanted to respond to those people by saying, "In reality, this couple would have these types of problems. But it doesn't make their love any less real."
To narrow it down, the idea for this fic was actually a specific response to some people who replied directly to, or spoke of elsewhere, this post about what B/A means to me. There were at least two specific responses that were very respectful toward my feelings about B/A, but mentioned that I hadn't really addressed some of the issues that might arise with the 'ship post NFA (particularly issues that had to do with both Buffy and Angel being very alpha personalities). I wanted to respond to those people by saying, "Thses are the issues that would arise post NFA, and this is how they would deal with it. It might not be perfect, and it might not even work, but the love that's there is what I love about the 'ship."
To narrow it down even further, when I was writing the fic, I kept asking myself, "but what would![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
germaine_pet say?" I think Lynne is a terrific writer; one of the best short piece writers I've ever read period, fanfic or not. I also happen to know that she doesn't prefer to read about B/A, that the 'ship just doesn't appeal to her. She has mentioned several times various reasons why she thinks they're better off and more interesting as characters not together post-NFA. I wanted to take into consideration the things she's said over the months I've known her, and use that to really fully examine what I thought about B/A. Mostly, I wanted her or someone who feels as she does to be able to read it and say, "Yeah, these are the issues I think this couple would have. And yeah, the way you've presented this, I can see where you're coming from about B/A standing a chance, even if I don't agree."
The other thing about thinking about Lynne reading this piece, is she and several other fic authors whom I really respect have said that sometimes while my ideas are good and the words are really interesting, the prose gets convoluted and obscures what I'm trying to say. So, in efforts to make the writing more precise and elegant, I limited myself to exactly 300 words per section. It wasn't about making Lynne say, "Wow, 300 words!" or "Hey, you almost managed not to get bogged down!"--it was about me improving my writing. But in the effort of doing so, I kept imagining Lynne as beta saying, "TKP, you don't need that bit." Sometimes I said, "hey, shut up, Lynne," but sometimes I listened.
The end of this little anecdote is I finished the story, and just plain didn't want to tinker with it any more. I had done what I wanted and felt satisfied. But when I posted the story, I began to wonder whether it'd worked or not or whether I should've waited or worked harder. But then I got fb from Lynne, and it was pretty much like a reassurance that yeah, my work there was done. It's not a perfect story; it's not as good as it could be--but it's what I wanted to do. The same thing happened double whenstultiloquentia fb'ed--she's a fabulous writer who writes fabulous B/S. We've discussed on and off the merits and B/A and why it does or doesn't appeal to us, or how we think the 'ship worked. So when she said I'd addressed arguments she might've brought up against the 'ship, I was all, "yay! I wrote it for people like you, baby!" Stulti has also mentioned how my words tend to get cuaght up in themselves, and she said I'd done a good job with that this time, so triple yay!
There are other aspects to imagined audience. In the case described above, I was making a specific case for a specific 'ship for people who don't necessarily 'ship that way. But the idea of writing specifically for 'shippers has been discussed at length: for instance, S/X fics that don't explain the why or wherefores of Spike and Xander getting together, and so are mainly only accessible to people who already 'ship them.
Often, imagined audience has nothing to do with 'ship. For instance, just to show you what an arrogantprick inside-out-prick I am, I wrote Blood Types because I'd just read several stylistic, poetic, very formatted pieces that everyone was fawing over and I myself thought they were absolute crap, so I wrote a piece that I felt was all three but that I also felt was good stuff. My imagined audience were the same people who were fawning over those other pieces.
Sometimes, you're not trying to prove anything to an imagined audience, you're just writing something you think they'd like. I wrote Down There In The Reeperbahn thinking of a few people whose fics and meta I'd read who seemed to be really into the patterns and echos in AtS, Angel's life, and especially Connor's place in all that. Sometimes when I'm working on Best Souvenir I just think of my beta,a2zmom, and whether she would say, "but that doesn't make sense" or not. And there are certain people who, every single time, I think, "dude, if they liked this, I'd feel all tingely, just because it's them." That's usually writers I really respect--two of whom I've already mentioned: stultiloquentia and germaine_pet.
So, the point.
-What fics have you written with imaginary audiences in mind? Why?
-What's a group that's been your imaginary audience?
-Who's a person who's been your imaginary audience? (and name names, people. I was shy to saygermaine_pet at first because for a moment she was an imaginary audience for this post, and I imagined her saying, "Dude, that TKP is a suck up! Plus she stalks me and I think she smells. Also now if I don't fb does that make me a bad person? WHAT IS HER CHILDHOOD TRAUMA?" But I totally sucked it up, and suspected Lynne could handle it, too.)
-Is there a particular person or group who is often your imaginary audience, and if so, who are they?
-Who's that person who's fb you often or always think about when you write, and against your better judgment and confidence in yourself, feel kinda vindicated when you get?
-Who's your imagined unaudience? Who have you hoped would never read what you've written? Besides your mom and that skeevy guy you saw once at Wal-Mart who followed you for a full ten minutes and got some of his guano on your shoe, are there sometimes people on lj who you hope might skip on by such and such fic? Ever write something knowing so and so will dislike it, and hope they don't read it and think less of your writing for it?
So, recently a couple people have got me thinking about the concept of "imagined audience." Let me say first that I hope if you write, fanfic or original, you do it for yourself. It's great to get fb, praise, and a dialogue going with readers, but seriously if the writing itself doesn't please you, go do something else forgodsakes. Mmmkay, now that that's over with, what is this imagined audience? Well, I'm defining it as a specific person or group about whom you're thinking when you write, and whose fb makes you feel you've accomplished your goal.
Because that definition feels a. amorphous and r. really really wrong for some reason, let me give an example. Not to toot my own horn but toot toot, it's about the las fic I wrote, Ten Things That Pull Apart And One Thing That Holds Together. Now, I wrote this fic first and foremost because I love B/A, and what I love about it is the idea of "love overcoming all obstacles" ; despite the fact that that idea is cliched, a deep fanciful part of me really wants me to believe it's true. So I wrote a fic about obstacles to see whether I thought love could overcome them (for those of you who are curious, I'm unsure of the results. Half the time writing that fic, I thought: "B/A would never work." The other half I thought, "love is like oxygen love gives you wings all you need is love /Moulin Rouge"). So, let's hear another mmmkay, because that's my motivation for writing it and it was for myself first and foremost, but I did on occasion think about who would be reading, and that's what I'm calling my "imagined audience".
A large part of my imagined audience were the people with whom I've listened to and discussed B/A who don't think the 'ship is feasible, practical, or realistic. A lot of people who don't prefer B/A as a 'ship think it's a puppy love, or a juvenile love, or a fairytale love, that was never meant to last or never meant to be. I wanted to respond to those people by saying, "In reality, this couple would have these types of problems. But it doesn't make their love any less real."
To narrow it down, the idea for this fic was actually a specific response to some people who replied directly to, or spoke of elsewhere, this post about what B/A means to me. There were at least two specific responses that were very respectful toward my feelings about B/A, but mentioned that I hadn't really addressed some of the issues that might arise with the 'ship post NFA (particularly issues that had to do with both Buffy and Angel being very alpha personalities). I wanted to respond to those people by saying, "Thses are the issues that would arise post NFA, and this is how they would deal with it. It might not be perfect, and it might not even work, but the love that's there is what I love about the 'ship."
To narrow it down even further, when I was writing the fic, I kept asking myself, "but what would
germaine_pet say?" I think Lynne is a terrific writer; one of the best short piece writers I've ever read period, fanfic or not. I also happen to know that she doesn't prefer to read about B/A, that the 'ship just doesn't appeal to her. She has mentioned several times various reasons why she thinks they're better off and more interesting as characters not together post-NFA. I wanted to take into consideration the things she's said over the months I've known her, and use that to really fully examine what I thought about B/A. Mostly, I wanted her or someone who feels as she does to be able to read it and say, "Yeah, these are the issues I think this couple would have. And yeah, the way you've presented this, I can see where you're coming from about B/A standing a chance, even if I don't agree."The other thing about thinking about Lynne reading this piece, is she and several other fic authors whom I really respect have said that sometimes while my ideas are good and the words are really interesting, the prose gets convoluted and obscures what I'm trying to say. So, in efforts to make the writing more precise and elegant, I limited myself to exactly 300 words per section. It wasn't about making Lynne say, "Wow, 300 words!" or "Hey, you almost managed not to get bogged down!"--it was about me improving my writing. But in the effort of doing so, I kept imagining Lynne as beta saying, "TKP, you don't need that bit." Sometimes I said, "hey, shut up, Lynne," but sometimes I listened.
The end of this little anecdote is I finished the story, and just plain didn't want to tinker with it any more. I had done what I wanted and felt satisfied. But when I posted the story, I began to wonder whether it'd worked or not or whether I should've waited or worked harder. But then I got fb from Lynne, and it was pretty much like a reassurance that yeah, my work there was done. It's not a perfect story; it's not as good as it could be--but it's what I wanted to do. The same thing happened double when
stultiloquentia fb'ed--she's a fabulous writer who writes fabulous B/S. We've discussed on and off the merits and B/A and why it does or doesn't appeal to us, or how we think the 'ship worked. So when she said I'd addressed arguments she might've brought up against the 'ship, I was all, "yay! I wrote it for people like you, baby!" Stulti has also mentioned how my words tend to get cuaght up in themselves, and she said I'd done a good job with that this time, so triple yay!There are other aspects to imagined audience. In the case described above, I was making a specific case for a specific 'ship for people who don't necessarily 'ship that way. But the idea of writing specifically for 'shippers has been discussed at length: for instance, S/X fics that don't explain the why or wherefores of Spike and Xander getting together, and so are mainly only accessible to people who already 'ship them.
Often, imagined audience has nothing to do with 'ship. For instance, just to show you what an arrogant
Sometimes, you're not trying to prove anything to an imagined audience, you're just writing something you think they'd like. I wrote Down There In The Reeperbahn thinking of a few people whose fics and meta I'd read who seemed to be really into the patterns and echos in AtS, Angel's life, and especially Connor's place in all that. Sometimes when I'm working on Best Souvenir I just think of my beta,
a2zmom, and whether she would say, "but that doesn't make sense" or not. And there are certain people who, every single time, I think, "dude, if they liked this, I'd feel all tingely, just because it's them." That's usually writers I really respect--two of whom I've already mentioned: stultiloquentia and germaine_pet.So, the point.
-What fics have you written with imaginary audiences in mind? Why?
-What's a group that's been your imaginary audience?
-Who's a person who's been your imaginary audience? (and name names, people. I was shy to say
germaine_pet at first because for a moment she was an imaginary audience for this post, and I imagined her saying, "Dude, that TKP is a suck up! Plus she stalks me and I think she smells. Also now if I don't fb does that make me a bad person? WHAT IS HER CHILDHOOD TRAUMA?" But I totally sucked it up, and suspected Lynne could handle it, too.)-Is there a particular person or group who is often your imaginary audience, and if so, who are they?
-Who's that person who's fb you often or always think about when you write, and against your better judgment and confidence in yourself, feel kinda vindicated when you get?
-Who's your imagined unaudience? Who have you hoped would never read what you've written? Besides your mom and that skeevy guy you saw once at Wal-Mart who followed you for a full ten minutes and got some of his guano on your shoe, are there sometimes people on lj who you hope might skip on by such and such fic? Ever write something knowing so and so will dislike it, and hope they don't read it and think less of your writing for it?
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And it's because I AGREE with their/your characterization of that particular person, and also have particular and strong writing styles that are above the norm, or better than most. So, yeah. I don't necessarily write that FOR you four, but I definitely like HEARING BACK from that group when I write that character, if that makes sense. This latest "fairy tale" fic I wrote because I had to. I got an idea and I couldn't stop thinking about it. I certainly don't want to be a writer that writes solely for feedback, which would be the "did U liek? Tel lme or I dun post new fic, ZOMG!" variety. So... I write because I want to/have to, and hearing back is just icing.
Now. When it comes to anything I'm writing to be simply balls-out funny? That's ALL for me. If I laugh, I know it's funny. I'm super snotty when it comes to that stuff, and in contrast, the level of feedback isn't a big deal. I know that humor is polarizing, so *shrugs* Not everyone will like it, and the people who *I* think are funny will usually respond. It's the
But stuff I take seriously? Yeah. It's nice to know you've hit something out of the park. (And conversely, it's okay - for me, at least - to know when I DON'T hit it out of the park. I almost feel like this last thing I wrote was a failure in many ways, because the people who are the hard core Connor writers/readers weren't really there talking about it. Which just sounds lame and "woe is me." But you did ask for honesty. :) (And seriously, you know this for truth: I'm good with hearing the why nots.)
And I'm finding that I use very specific betas for specific writings. Style-wise, varying fandoms, etc. Because I need someone who's on the same page as me.
Re: UN-audience: I can't name names on this one, but I was recently friended (um... over the past few months) by someone who is a staunch supporter of the Cult Of
notNice over one of my goofy humor pieces, and I'm STILL thinking it's a set-up. Hahahaha.And I'm totally with you on the fangirling of
[/nerd]
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Also: ♥
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I'm finding it a hard thing to discuss, because I *always* write for myself. It's always because I have some idea and can't get rid of it, or want to see how it plays out--just as you say with your recent fic. But while I'm doing it *sometimes*, as with this last one, I'm thinking, "hey, would a non-B/Aer see this?" and sometimes, "would Lynne tell me to delete this word?" And sometimes it only exists in the sense of, "I wonder if so and so will leave positive fb on this one", you know?
When it comes to anything I'm writing to be simply balls-out funny? That's ALL for me.
I think this is a great thing. Because I often laugh too.
I almost feel like this last thing I wrote was a failure in many ways, because the people who are the hard core Connor writers/readers weren't really there talking about it. Which just sounds lame and "woe is me." But you did ask for honesty. :)
It doesn't sound lame. And I know the feeling. I've never been disappointed about the amount of fb I get, but once or twice I was kinda sad when such and such person apparently didn't read it or worse, didn't like it. However, I submit to you that viewing it as a failure solely for that reason isn't necessarily sense-making. There's lots of factors besides goodness of a story that goes into whether someone fbs or not. I understand the disappointment, but I think a story about Connor that got as much fb as you did is actually quite a success, considering that over all the character is not well liked.
And I'm finding that I use very specific betas for specific writings. Style-wise, varying fandoms, etc. Because I need someone who's on the same page as me.
I'd only considered that before insofar as character went. I'd send a B/A fic to a different person than a fic about Connor. I'd *always* send A/S to Lynne, because I know she'd say yes. ;o)
I've never read any
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And yeah, that was Kovsky that wrote that 5 Families. That actually inspired me to write my M*A*S*H/Connor fic and I don't DO crossovers. Her post-Choices fic with Dawn and Connor is astounding. She has a very unique style - it's spare and sundrenched and paints just enough so you can do the rest in your mind as you read. That's my favorite kind of fic, right there. (And she writes all sorts: if you like The Office, those are tight. Gah, she has a M*A*S*H fic with BJ and Pearce that just sucker punches you and I STILL think about images from that fic after a year.)
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Well, there are two ways of looking at it, I guess. One is whether the story is something you should be proud of, whether it satisfied you and fulfilled your goals for the story. I was trying to point out that proof of success in that realm was evident in the number of comments, which is absolutely untrue. That lies in your heart. /cheese but also truth
Another measure of success is whether you got the fb you desired. Some do it by quantity; I suspect you do it by quality. I like both column A and column B.
In the end, the important thing to me is the former evaluation. Now, if I felt I failed in that respect--getting the fb I wanted--I might go back and reevaluate. Sometimes just sheer lack of comments helps me to see a fic with new eyes. But the quality/quantity of comments is just that: a kick in the pants, and insight, but it's not the measure of my fic, for me. In the end it's all about moi.
I meant to read her Dawn/Connor--thanks for reminding. I've never seen M*A*S*H. I don't even know what The Office is. TV and me are not friends, which is why BtVS/AtS shocked me.
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You really read The Weary World Rejoicing For it's quiet emotional build-up and the world building she accomplisheds in very few pitch perfect words. It's an AU after season 5, BtVS.
She jas also written anhysterically funny Simpsons story which made milk come out of my nose, even though milk was nowhere in the vicinity.
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I haven't read any of the lynnevitationals either. Well, I read Lynne's, and Sue's. But beyond that I've felt like I've had no time. Ack!