Let's talk about process.

[lettered]

I wanna talk about process, but I don't know how.



Every discussion of the "writing process" that I've seen turns into someone saying, "I do this" and someone else saying, "I do that." That sharing is interesting to me, but I don't find it useful.

Wait, let me make a distinction here. There's process as it refers to how you write: like, you get in a quiet room and do it three hours every evening. And then there's process that refers to what you write: how you get from the ideas in your head to the paper/computer screen to a full fledged fic. There's process in between, that's less defined than the how and more defined than the what: as in, how many drafts you write, how you edit, etc etc.

When I say I don't benefit from other people sharing their processes I'm talking more about the last two kinds of process. As for the first kind, lots of writers have said stuff like, "write for thirty minutes as soon as you wake up!" or "I need to be in a public place with headphones on!" and that's people just saying, "I do this," and "I do that," except it's stuff I can try out for myself. I can try for myself to write for thirty minutes as soon as I wake up, and see whether it works for me or not.

With the what of process, that's less so. When someone talks about getting their ideas from their head to their page, their description always seems amorphous to me, like something I can't quite define or put my finger on. Part of that is authors just don't know: how do you describe a thought process, how you think, how your brain works? And part of it is that every single time, it's different. For every fic you've ever written, no matter how pat your "process" is, you've approached it differently, with different aspects of the plots and characters planned out and how you're going to work them in. So when a writer describes her general what process, I kind of phase out. It's so non-specific; I can't think how to apply those process to myself, how to experiment with them to make myself a better writer. (See, this is what I get from discussion. I'm not really interested in you; I'm interested in how what you do can apply to me. I'm so self-absorbed. It's all about me me me.)

Now, this is why I love to beta, to discuss authors' fic with the authors, to be a sounding board for ideas and really immerse myself in someone else's half-formed world, because that's really the closest you ever get to someone else's process. (You thought I liked to beta because I am nice and sugar sweet and love you all? No, really I'm just selfish. Ha! Also, I get to see things before they get posted and that gives me, like, a deep down completely self-centered thrill.) Instead of someone trying to describe to you some nebulous concept, talking with someone about their ideas is someone showing you exactly how that process is applied. And even when I don't come away from those discussions, or betas, or brainstorming sessions with specific ways the process I just spied in on applies to me, I always feel afterwards like my mind is wider, like I have new ways to approach things.

I want to make it clear that what I get from that kind of idea-share are not specific ideas, and that's not what I'm looking for. If I'm beta'ing Author A's Wesley/Xander piece, I'm not trawling through that fic looking for W/X ideas, or ideas about Wesley, or nuances of Xander's voice. I mean, sometimes specific ideas do crop up in beta'ing or discussion--fics do get sparked that way and I can't see a single reason that's not a valid vanue of inspiration. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how in reading something that's not finished, or in discussing questions about where a fic should go, or in just a mutual brainstorming session, you see how Author A applies her ideas, how she goes about implementing them, what she starts with before she puts pen to page and what she ends up with. And I find what I gain from seeing that process difficult to describe, just as I find Author A's discussion of What Her Process Is difficult unless she's coming to me with a specific fic to discuss or beta or play around in.

Does this make sense? I don't know. I don't really have a point here; it's more of an observation. I don't have my usual sets of questions to encourage discussion, because I guess if there is a point, the point is I feel like process is kind of impossible to discuss. The only thing that's actually constructive that I have to add is an idea for a comm that deals with this, and I'm just wondering about who and how many would be interested. Here's the idea: once a month, authors would volunteer, and the members of the comm would pick one author. Once the author is picked, she shares with the comm her idea for a story. Over the course of the month, she would write that story, and share every single piece of writing she does for it, every scrap and idea and bit and piece--that is, she'd share her process as much as she could. And the other members of the comm could discuss that process, what the author is doing, how she's collating her ideas, how she's implementing them, whether she's succeeding, what she needs to work on. Here's the thing--the author wouldn't need to use or even read *any* of those discussions, comments, or observations. It wouldn't really be about con critting or a comm project to create this great story. It would be more about the audience--that is, everyone who isn't the author that month--getting to spy on someone else's process, and learning from that experience, than the author herself.

The thing is I'm not sure I'd be comfortable being an author for a comm like that. Sharing every single bit would be like showing your undies and your crooked toe and your body odor and your hair when you wake up in the morning, and letting it all hang out there like that is really intimidating. And if you knew people were watching, would you really be going through your natural process? Or would it be affected? The other thing is that people would need to participate for it to really work, and I've noticed with a lot of comms I've joined that they seem like great ideas, but they rarely get followed through. But hey, if anyone is interested, let me know what you think about it. I would try really hard for a resource like that, a comm like that that's there to really learn something about ourselves, you know?

Oh, the other thing. DVD commentaries. I love those things, because that's getting to spy on process too. They're kind of backwards, because you don't get to see the fic form so much as hear an author tell you how it formed, which in some way is less beneficial to me personally as a writer, but dude, what people have to say about where their ideas come from, and how they get their details to work, is just so fucking interesting. I've wanted to do one for quite a while, because I love to hear myself talk (can you tell?) but I wouldn't want to do one if no one was interested. Sooo, if you are, here is a list of my fanfiction, and pick one and I will do it for you. I don't have that much, and one is a WIP, but I can do chapters. Pick one! And, if you're willing to do one for your own fic, let me know and I'll pick one back, and eagerly await what you have to say . . .

ETA: liz_marcs came up with the idea that there could be a comm based around dvd commentaries, in which a different author or two every two weeks or so posts dvd commentaries for stories they've written. Then there could be discussions with the author about what they did, and discussions about how the writer's ideas and stuff got implemented. It would also be beneficial to the authors posting the commentaries--it always helps to look back and figure out how you wrote something. As I told liz_marcs, the only thing that doesn't jazz me about a comm like that is there'd be deadlines, with authors having to post things by a certain date, and often people burn out on that really quick, and I don't want to start a comm that dies. But, hey, say whether you'd be interested, or whether you'd try, and what you think. I'd love to know!

Comments

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about your first idea about fanfic writers volunteering for a month and tossng up whatever snippets they throw at a story before they cut. A lot of it because of the problem you point out: People add, edit, and cut without thinking whether it says something about their "process." Then if you tend to go the perfectionist route (like me), I'd hate to show my undies. I have people beta-ing my DarkXander fic and I couldn't bring myself to show undies.

On the other hand, your second idea has much merit as a basis for a community, because "DVD commentaries" makes the writer think about their process as they explain why they did X instead of Y. I did it for Cuckoo in the Nest (a Tony Harris-centric fic, believe it or not) and remembering how I put it together and what my motivation was just as revelatory to me as it was to people who commented on the commentary.

(Here's a link to both the "clean" and "DVD commentary" copies if you're interested: http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=liz_marcs&keyword=Cuckoo+in+the+Nest+%28BtVS%3B+PG-13%29&filter=all)

DVD commentaries, though, are exhausting to produce, especially if you do an extensive job of it.

A community built around fanfic writers producing commentary for their own fic (I'd do it on a one or two writers a week schedule), might be interesting.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Hunh. This made me thinky.

But like you said, sometimes comms get started and then...it's hard.

Still thinking.

[bashipforever.livejournal.com]

I adore seeing/hearing/discussing how people write as in why they chose that particular phrasing or does the fact that Angel shoves his hands in his pockets mean something to them or were they just looking for something for Angel to do during Buffy's dialogue. I adore dvd's commentaries and am headed over to pick one of your stories. I'd love to see one from you.

[bashipforever.livejournal.com]

I'd love to see a commentary for Bodiless within the Bodies

And if you'd like to see a commentary for any of my stuff it can be found here (http://www.stumbleintograce.com/ficletkristi.asp#ficlets)

[semby.livejournal.com]

Ooh, that first idea for a comm sounds very cool, but very ambitious. I think that would be really, really hard to pull off, but if successful, the results would be very, very interesting. Though I agree that it would probably be pretty uncomfortable and exposing for the author in question. I certainly couldn't do that personally.

The DVD commentary one would be very cool! I love those too. I think any I'd do myself would be pretty dull, but I'd love to hear the thoughts behind other people's creations.

And, if you're up for it, I would love to see you do a commentary for "Down There in the Reeperbaum"

[alizarin-nyc.livejournal.com]

All I have to say is: Word!

Yeah. I'm with you on the writerly process talks -- "I do this," is not so much helpful, but can sometimes be inspiring, but I definitely don't like people who say "it must be done this way," because that just seems icky.

I think I am the only person in the whole wide world that does not like DVD fic commentary. It's huge in all my fandoms, people go nuts for them. For me (and this is just me), they are boring and navel-gazey and take the shine off the fic. Even the most DVD-commentary-worthy fics have eventually lost my attention. I think it must be a personal flaw since they are all the rage.

Also for me, decisions mid-fic are so arbitrary, and what I think I'm saying is often not really what the reader is hearing and that's perfectly fine, I just don't want to point it out. And sometimes I'm getting bored with Character A chatting up Character B and so I'm just like, okay, let's get to the shooting or sexing and be done with it. This is probably not the best way, but well, there you go.

As for a comm of a writerly process-y type... I'd be there in a heartbeat. I sorely need something like that in my life.

[rahirah]

I have no problem showing people my crappy first drafts because it would be common knowledge that they were crappy first drafts, and not something I was trying to pass off as finished product. However, the idea of completing a story in a month makes me break down in hysterical laughter.

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

I think the DVD commentary idea is very interesting but I don't know that it would work. Maybe if each month, a writer was "contracted" to do it?

As it so happens, I've been thinking about the guilt trilogy interms of why I choose what I choose, specific idea I wanted to get acroos. Not that I was planning on writing it down necessarily, it was more in terms of helping me understand my own process a bit better.

[seraphcelene]

Hi, very very late comment, and I can't read the other comments because of The Man. I'm at work, of course, because I never leave!

I'd be interested in reading a comm like what you're describing, but I'm more curious to see how it works and if it will work than I am in actually posting my own in-progress fic. The biggest reason is that I typically write within one week and if a piece doesn't get finished in that span it usually sits for months to years on my hard drive. As a writer, I also know that my initial drafts for anything, with very rare exceptions, make up only about 10% of the finished product. The first three drafts or so are actually pretty much nonsensical drivel vomited on paper.

So the warts and all aspect of the proposed comm, as you so wonderfully put it, showing your undies and your crooked toe and your body odor and your hair when you wake up in the morning, and letting it all hang out could be fascinating, but frustrating. Picking out someone's thought processes through subsequent drafts could be an exercise in futility because I find that the evolution of a fic is, as you've pointed out, amorphous. For me it's unchartable because what I thought I was going to write isn't necessarily what I end up writing. Maybe I'm just not disciplined enough to 'make' my writing do what I want it to do. Typically, I let it get away with whatever it wants and the more ambitious I try to be the less flexible the fic seems to be.

As for the DVD commentary thing!!! I love those. I'm actually in the process of writing two of them. One is for Vex Not the Roses and the other is for eyes like the summer, all beauty and truth.

And if you're going to do one, I'd love to read a commentary on the Five Things Post NFA.

If you want one, I'd be happy to do one. :)

Where's "Something Good?"

[imnotacommittee.livejournal.com]

Just kidding ;-)

Sort of.

Great post, and I thought I was one of the rare people who enjoyed DVD commentaries.

And that's why you're such a great beta (aside from being a good writer yourself): you so thoroughly enjoy the writing process, thinking like the writer you're working with.

[my_daroga]

I tend to think your questions are rather writer-processy, commentary-rich things in themselves. They definitely make me think about things I haven't that I can attempt to apply to my own writing. As you've said, some of these things are impossible to put into words--I don't know how much better you can say it. I think the first comm idea would be very difficult for all the reasons stated, as well as the problem of edits and how some of us edit-on-the-fly; would someone like that post every hour they worked on fic? Or wait until there's a substantial change in the draft?

The DVD commentary issue is interesting, as there are very few real DVD commentaries I like. And as you know, I love the filmmaking process--there's jsut something unhelpful (to me) about most of these tracks. The commentators say so many common-sense things, or else they rob their film of its meaning for me (when I discover the process was a lot less deep/interesting than I thought). I like the funny ones (as in, commentaries by people with a modicum of humor) and the in-character ones, and certain films have useful things to say. But on the whole I stay away. I've never read a commentary for a fic, though I definitely will read whatever you come up with for yours (and I'll attempt one of my own, if you're ever inclined and if i can remember jack about writing it).

I think we're learning something interesting about process from our little experiment, as well.

[zibbycomix.livejournal.com]

I really like your ideas for communities. I do agree that it might be hard to follow through on, though. Well, if these ever got set up, or if you know that something like this exists somewhere, let me know, and I will join it! =)