lettered | Let's talk about process.

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Let's talk about process.

I wanna talk about process, but I don't know how.

Every discussion of the "writing process" that I've seen turns into someone saying, "I do this" and someone else saying, "I do that." That sharing is interesting to me, but I don't find it useful.

Wait, let me make a distinction here. There's process as it refers to how you write: like, you get in a quiet room and do it three hours every evening. And then there's process that refers to what you write: how you get from the ideas in your head to the paper/computer screen to a full fledged fic. There's process in between, that's less defined than the how and more defined than the what: as in, how many drafts you write, how you edit, etc etc.

When I say I don't benefit from other people sharing their processes I'm talking more about the last two kinds of process. As for the first kind, lots of writers have said stuff like, "write for thirty minutes as soon as you wake up!" or "I need to be in a public place with headphones on!" and that's people just saying, "I do this," and "I do that," except it's stuff I can try out for myself. I can try for myself to write for thirty minutes as soon as I wake up, and see whether it works for me or not.

With the what of process, that's less so. When someone talks about getting their ideas from their head to their page, their description always seems amorphous to me, like something I can't quite define or put my finger on. Part of that is authors just don't know: how do you describe a thought process, how you think, how your brain works? And part of it is that every single time, it's different. For every fic you've ever written, no matter how pat your "process" is, you've approached it differently, with different aspects of the plots and characters planned out and how you're going to work them in. So when a writer describes her general what process, I kind of phase out. It's so non-specific; I can't think how to apply those process to myself, how to experiment with them to make myself a better writer. (See, this is what I get from discussion. I'm not really interested in you; I'm interested in how what you do can apply to me. I'm so self-absorbed. It's all about me me me.)

Now, this is why I love to beta, to discuss authors' fic with the authors, to be a sounding board for ideas and really immerse myself in someone else's half-formed world, because that's really the closest you ever get to someone else's process. (You thought I liked to beta because I am nice and sugar sweet and love you all? No, really I'm just selfish. Ha! Also, I get to see things before they get posted and that gives me, like, a deep down completely self-centered thrill.) Instead of someone trying to describe to you some nebulous concept, talking with someone about their ideas is someone showing you exactly how that process is applied. And even when I don't come away from those discussions, or betas, or brainstorming sessions with specific ways the process I just spied in on applies to me, I always feel afterwards like my mind is wider, like I have new ways to approach things.

I want to make it clear that what I get from that kind of idea-share are not specific ideas, and that's not what I'm looking for. If I'm beta'ing Author A's Wesley/Xander piece, I'm not trawling through that fic looking for W/X ideas, or ideas about Wesley, or nuances of Xander's voice. I mean, sometimes specific ideas do crop up in beta'ing or discussion--fics do get sparked that way and I can't see a single reason that's not a valid vanue of inspiration. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how in reading something that's not finished, or in discussing questions about where a fic should go, or in just a mutual brainstorming session, you see how Author A applies her ideas, how she goes about implementing them, what she starts with before she puts pen to page and what she ends up with. And I find what I gain from seeing that process difficult to describe, just as I find Author A's discussion of What Her Process Is difficult unless she's coming to me with a specific fic to discuss or beta or play around in.

Does this make sense? I don't know. I don't really have a point here; it's more of an observation. I don't have my usual sets of questions to encourage discussion, because I guess if there is a point, the point is I feel like process is kind of impossible to discuss. The only thing that's actually constructive that I have to add is an idea for a comm that deals with this, and I'm just wondering about who and how many would be interested. Here's the idea: once a month, authors would volunteer, and the members of the comm would pick one author. Once the author is picked, she shares with the comm her idea for a story. Over the course of the month, she would write that story, and share every single piece of writing she does for it, every scrap and idea and bit and piece--that is, she'd share her process as much as she could. And the other members of the comm could discuss that process, what the author is doing, how she's collating her ideas, how she's implementing them, whether she's succeeding, what she needs to work on. Here's the thing--the author wouldn't need to use or even read *any* of those discussions, comments, or observations. It wouldn't really be about con critting or a comm project to create this great story. It would be more about the audience--that is, everyone who isn't the author that month--getting to spy on someone else's process, and learning from that experience, than the author herself.

The thing is I'm not sure I'd be comfortable being an author for a comm like that. Sharing every single bit would be like showing your undies and your crooked toe and your body odor and your hair when you wake up in the morning, and letting it all hang out there like that is really intimidating. And if you knew people were watching, would you really be going through your natural process? Or would it be affected? The other thing is that people would need to participate for it to really work, and I've noticed with a lot of comms I've joined that they seem like great ideas, but they rarely get followed through. But hey, if anyone is interested, let me know what you think about it. I would try really hard for a resource like that, a comm like that that's there to really learn something about ourselves, you know?

Oh, the other thing. DVD commentaries. I love those things, because that's getting to spy on process too. They're kind of backwards, because you don't get to see the fic form so much as hear an author tell you how it formed, which in some way is less beneficial to me personally as a writer, but dude, what people have to say about where their ideas come from, and how they get their details to work, is just so fucking interesting. I've wanted to do one for quite a while, because I love to hear myself talk (can you tell?) but I wouldn't want to do one if no one was interested. Sooo, if you are, here is a list of my fanfiction, and pick one and I will do it for you. I don't have that much, and one is a WIP, but I can do chapters. Pick one! And, if you're willing to do one for your own fic, let me know and I'll pick one back, and eagerly await what you have to say . . .

ETA:

liz_marcs came up with the idea that there could be a comm based around dvd commentaries, in which a different author or two every two weeks or so posts dvd commentaries for stories they've written. Then there could be discussions with the author about what they did, and discussions about how the writer's ideas and stuff got implemented. It would also be beneficial to the authors posting the commentaries--it always helps to look back and figure out how you wrote something. As I told

liz_marcs, the only thing that doesn't jazz me about a comm like that is there'd be deadlines, with authors having to post things by a certain date, and often people burn out on that really quick, and I don't want to start a comm that dies. But, hey, say whether you'd be interested, or whether you'd try, and what you think. I'd love to know!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I'm not sure about your first idea about fanfic writers volunteering for a month and tossng up whatever snippets they throw at a story before they cut. A lot of it because of the problem you point out: People add, edit, and cut without thinking whether it says something about their "process." Then if you tend to go the perfectionist route (like me), I'd hate to show my undies. I have people beta-ing my DarkXander fic and I couldn't bring myself to show undies.

On the other hand, your second idea has much merit as a basis for a community, because "DVD commentaries" makes the writer think about their process as they explain why they did X instead of Y. I did it for Cuckoo in the Nest (a Tony Harris-centric fic, believe it or not) and remembering how I put it together and what my motivation was just as revelatory to me as it was to people who commented on the commentary.

(Here's a link to both the "clean" and "DVD commentary" copies if you're interested: http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=liz_marcs&keyword=Cuckoo+in+the+Nest+%28BtVS%3B+PG-13%29&filter=all)

DVD commentaries, though, are exhausting to produce, especially if you do an extensive job of it.

A community built around fanfic writers producing commentary for their own fic (I'd do it on a one or two writers a week schedule), might be interesting.

People add, edit, and cut without thinking whether it says something about their "process."

Yeah. I was just thinking that if you used your "post to your journal" window as a word processor, and just clicked "post" every time you worked on it--whether that's a couple times a day or once every three days, depends on the person. The author wouldn't necessarily have to think about, "oh, I have to show this part!", they would just show wherever they've left the piece whenever they pause their work on it a bit. So of course you wouldn't see *every* single step but you'd see steps building.

Then if you tend to go the perfectionist route (like me), I'd hate to show my undies.

This is the main problem I see. Though, if I was writing a fic *for* the comm, with the knowledge that people would be seeing as I write, it might be different. I have trouble sending my stuff to betas too, because I hate to show stuff I don't think is perfect, but if people were seeing it from the very beginning, when it just plain *can't* be perfect, it might be easier. But yes, I find that troublesome too, so maybe it wouldn't work.

Here's a link to both the "clean" and "DVD commentary" copies if you're interested

Definitely interested, thanks. I'm putting them on my too read list.

A community built around fanfic writers producing commentary for their own fic (I'd do it on a one or two writers a week schedule), might be interesting.

I hadn't thought about the dvd commentary thing in terms of a comm; that's an extremely interesting idea. The main problem I see there is what I said about comms tending to start with a bang and then petering out. Some people just don't meet deadlines, and then things get bogged down, and everything gets pushed back, and so and so didn't do theirs so so and such feels okay waiting on theirs, and then nothing gets posted, I'd feel like a btich for badgering people, it wouldn't be fun any more, and the comm would die. I'd rather do something that was based around having discussion than assigning people to post things. But I think I'm going to add this idea for a comm to the initial post to see how much interest there'd be, 'cause I'm always willing to *try*.

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

Hunh. This made me thinky.

But like you said, sometimes comms get started and then...it's hard.

Still thinking.

Yeah, and I'm a really terrible type in that I'll come up with this brilliant idea for something like a comm, getting people involved, being very gung ho about it and prepared to work really hard, and then three months into it, just . . . petering out, for reasons I can't fathom.

Right there with you, Sparky, as you might have noticed.

Oh. Ha! Yeah. I wasn't thinking about that, though. I just love to start things, not so good on follow through.

I adore seeing/hearing/discussing how people write as in why they chose that particular phrasing or does the fact that Angel shoves his hands in his pockets mean something to them or were they just looking for something for Angel to do during Buffy's dialogue. I adore dvd's commentaries and am headed over to pick one of your stories. I'd love to see one from you.

I love them too! Sometimes the simplest details have hours of work behind them that you would never be able to tell about, and the parts that seem intricate and difficult actually came really easy to the author.

I'd love to see a commentary for Bodiless within the Bodies

And if you'd like to see a commentary for any of my stuff it can be found here (http://www.stumbleintograce.com/ficletkristi.asp#ficlets)

Will do, and thanks for the link--I definitely want to read!

Ooh, that first idea for a comm sounds very cool, but very ambitious. I think that would be really, really hard to pull off, but if successful, the results would be very, very interesting. Though I agree that it would probably be pretty uncomfortable and exposing for the author in question. I certainly couldn't do that personally.

The DVD commentary one would be very cool! I love those too. I think any I'd do myself would be pretty dull, but I'd love to hear the thoughts behind other people's creations.

And, if you're up for it, I would love to see you do a commentary for "Down There in the Reeperbaum"

I think it'd be difficult to pull off too. Oh well. I thought I'd throw it out there.

I don't think your commentaries would be dull...I'd love to hear what you were thinking during say, Everything Fades, Until Every Noise Is Drowned, or The Case of the Missing Ancient Statuette. Hee!

And yeah, I'll do the Reeperbahn, that one's fun to talk about.

All I have to say is: Word!

Yeah. I'm with you on the writerly process talks -- "I do this," is not so much helpful, but can sometimes be inspiring, but I definitely don't like people who say "it must be done this way," because that just seems icky.

I think I am the only person in the whole wide world that does not like DVD fic commentary. It's huge in all my fandoms, people go nuts for them. For me (and this is just me), they are boring and navel-gazey and take the shine off the fic. Even the most DVD-commentary-worthy fics have eventually lost my attention. I think it must be a personal flaw since they are all the rage.

Also for me, decisions mid-fic are so arbitrary, and what I think I'm saying is often not really what the reader is hearing and that's perfectly fine, I just don't want to point it out. And sometimes I'm getting bored with Character A chatting up Character B and so I'm just like, okay, let's get to the shooting or sexing and be done with it. This is probably not the best way, but well, there you go.

As for a comm of a writerly process-y type... I'd be there in a heartbeat. I sorely need something like that in my life.

I don't think it's a flaw that you don't like dvd commentaries! It's just a matter of taste. I *love* navel gazing; I love watching other people gaze at their navels, so it's right up my alley.

I have read some that I found uninteresting. They were mostly the author saying, "I did this, and then I did this . . ." And it's because some authors just don't analyze the things they do and why they're doing them. This doesn't make their writing any less good, it's just they're approach. But as someone who ALWAYS has a pretty intense reason for almost every word in a short fic, and every larger event in a novel-length fic, there's a lot to say, and with some others it's like that too.

The interest for a comm like that seems not-so-much, so I'm guessing not. But, it's an idea I will cling to and talk about from time to time, if only to see if I can generate some interest. It would not work though, I think, if people weren't really into the idea in the first place.

In thinking about it more, I think I probably didn't adequately define what I like and what I don't like. Because I LIKE discussing the writerly process. What makes this piece tick...

And why this word and not that word. Why did this flow so well and then get hung up on the rocks here. That stuff fascinates me. If that was what your comm was going to address, that would have been totally fantastic and yes, you'd need a dedicated bunch. So please talk about it from time to time, if you would, I'd be interested to see where it leads.

I think with the DVD commentary, it's as you've said. People did some boring stuff with it. I may not have read the right ones. But I am definitely interested in the STORY and not in the AUTHOR. Does that make sense? So it depends on what the DVD is FOR. Is it about the words and the prose and the story or is it self-aggrandizing and Look At Me? I prefer the former.

Oh. Yeah, the comm I was talking about would definitely address stuff like that. But it would also be about . . . about stuff I don't know how to address, because it's so impossible to talk about! Like, for instance, I was just thinking about doing a dvd commentary someone just requested, and to describe some of the things I did, it's not only about word choice, about flow and the technical aspects, but how I got from this inspiration, to this idea, to this story, to this paragraph, to this particular word, you know? And that's such a journey that can't really be talked about in a general sense, because it's different for every person, and every single word each person writes.

But I am definitely interested in the STORY and not in the AUTHOR. Does that make sense?

Well, I think so. But so much of the author gets put into a story. What I mean is, in some of the commentaries I've read, I'll be *aching* to know why someone did something the way they did, or how they came up with that, or whatever, and the reason turns out to be something personal (they did that part because of a big long story about their cat, you know?) And often enough the author did add it "just 'cause", but how they used that rl experience, how they incorporated it, how they made it fit the story--even if they just talk about the rl experience without talking about how it fit with the themes of the story--I can look at it and say huh, you're doing that had this effect.

That's not nearly so interesting if the part of the fic they're talking about *isn't* something that's important or integral to the story, isn't something that adds so much it makes me wonder how they got the idea, you know? Sometimes people throw things into stories because they feel like it, and those things don't *fit*. But a good writer will put things in without quite knowing *why*, and when they write the commentary they *still* might not know why, but from the outside I can see how it works for the story, and from their commentary I get how they used what they knew/felt to create something for their fiction, even if that use wasn't intentional.

Does that make sense? I guess that's what I'm trying to say about process. You can't describe it, and with some people, they don't even *consciously* know why what they do works. But when you watch them, or help them, or hear about it afterwards, you're that much closer to knowing where they were when they came up with what they did, and how they knew what to include.

I'm sorry. I'm rambling. It's late and I need fluffy pillows.

*fluffs your pillows*

I think what I'm getting at with my comment about AUTHORS is that I'm not interested in reading the self-aggrandizing stuff. I have no good examples, when what I need right now are examples! Some stuff is sort of, "I did this because I am so very cool," and that just kind of irritates me as a writer - I get nothing out of it but disdain for the story I thought I loved.

Does that make sense? I guess that's what I'm trying to say about process. You can't describe it, and with some people, they don't even *consciously* know why what they do works. But when you watch them, or help them, or hear about it afterwards, you're that much closer to knowing where they were when they came up with what they did, and how they knew what to include.

Here's a great example of something that was like DVD commentary that really WORKED for me.

femmenerd. When she did that fic-mix-fic. Seeing the PROCESS and the raw bits and how she wanted it to come together and why she felt how she did about the characters and what would make sense and the input she was asking for. THAT. That, was an amazing experience. Perhaps you will agree, being in on it and being much adored by The Femme.

That's the key for me, in what you're saying, that experience. I loved it.

I learned a lot about her, about her writing process, about my reading and writing and those particular characters. Could that whole thing be duplicated? Yes, I think it could. But could a comm capture the passion that Femme had at that exact moment? More difficult, certainly, but not any less an admirable goal.

Back to the other topic - I often don't want to know EXACTLY why someone put something into a sentence, or fic. I think I don't want everyone to know that sometimes I just had a flash of a hot sunny day and that's why that character had the same memory. It's so arbitrary, and as such, personal.

If it turned out well, then it's better that the reader thinks I'm brilliant and clever and never knows that I'm just a person sitting here with issues and trying to amuse myself with stories.

So I don't *ache* as you put it to know all. Unless we're talking about RL authors, in which case I do *ache* to know how Graham Greene decided the protagonist in "Heart of the Matter" came to his disbelief and ultimate suicide and whether he ever, at any point in the story, had a chance at salvation.

In this way, I think there are authors who really could hold my attention for hours in a discussion of their process, again -- I may not have the right perspective on DVD commentary, not having read the right authors.

Ah, fluffy pillows, you are so elusive.

"I did this because I am so very cool,"

Oh, I gotcha. Yeah, that's lame.

[info]femmenerd. When she did that fic-mix-fic.

That's when I got this idea. My feelings were just like yours--it was so cool to see the story come together, and to see Femme's thought processes as they went, to see the different versions and see how she implemented her ideas. That is exactly what I would want for the comm I'm talking about, an author who shares her process in that way, and perhaps a bit more from the peanut gallery talking about the author rather than to the author, but in the end, the "audience" gaining that experience of something coming together. Because yeah, as you said, seeing how Femme worked, that was *awesome*.

I often don't want to know EXACTLY why someone put something into a sentence, or fic.

I don't always want to know. If someone did a commentary for every single thing they ever wrote, even if it was my favorite author and I was *curious*, I wouldn't want to read more than one or two, because that might ruin the reading experience. I'd be wondering how she wrote something rather than enjoying the piece for itself, and I already do that far too much with what I read as is!

I think I don't want everyone to know that sometimes I just had a flash of a hot sunny day and that's why that character had the same memory. [...]If it turned out well, then it's better that the reader thinks I'm brilliant and clever and never knows that I'm just a person sitting here with issues and trying to amuse myself with stories.

I don't know how to say it, but we're *all* just people with issues trying to amuse ourselves. I mean I read some fics, and think, DUDE, this author is a GOD, but I'm never not aware that it's a nerdy fan getting her jollies off Angel and Buffy, you know? Hoping that the reader thinks you're anything more seems to be . . . I don't know, either expecting too much from your readers, or not respecting their intelligence enough.

Unless we're talking about RL authors

That's interesting. Maybe you expect more intelligent commentary from RL authors, when the fans you've read seem to just say a lot of their bits are arbitrary. Which yeah, doesn't make for interesting dvd commentaries.

You're so right! My pillows are so flat.

I have no problem showing people my crappy first drafts because it would be common knowledge that they were crappy first drafts, and not something I was trying to pass off as finished product. However, the idea of completing a story in a month makes me break down in hysterical laughter.

because it would be common knowledge that they were crappy first drafts,

Yeah, exactly, I was hoping that would come into play.

However, the idea of completing a story in a month makes me break down in hysterical laughter.

I wondered about that too, mostly because so many things I start, get really into, then drop for a month or two before getting interested in them again. Sometimes I do that with a piece for months on end! But anyway, I'm not sure it follows that a piece would need to be finished every month, you know? You still gain something by watching what the author does and even how often the author works on it, you know? And maybe if the author for a month wanted to continue to show her process after the month was done, she could continue to show her stuff even while the next person was going, or she could decide to take her toys and go home for a while. Either way, I think those following along would still benefit.

I think the DVD commentary idea is very interesting but I don't know that it would work. Maybe if each month, a writer was "contracted" to do it?

As it so happens, I've been thinking about the guilt trilogy interms of why I choose what I choose, specific idea I wanted to get acroos. Not that I was planning on writing it down necessarily, it was more in terms of helping me understand my own process a bit better.

Well, I was thinking the authors who wanted to participate would have assigned dates, but yeah, I just don't think that anything with deadlines is a very good idea.

I hope you do write it down, though. I love those stories and would love to know how your brain worked on 'em. But yeah, to me, thinking about your process is important . . . but it's also possible to overthink. I think.

Hi, very very late comment, and I can't read the other comments because of The Man. I'm at work, of course, because I never leave!

I'd be interested in reading a comm like what you're describing, but I'm more curious to see how it works and if it will work than I am in actually posting my own in-progress fic. The biggest reason is that I typically write within one week and if a piece doesn't get finished in that span it usually sits for months to years on my hard drive. As a writer, I also know that my initial drafts for anything, with very rare exceptions, make up only about 10% of the finished product. The first three drafts or so are actually pretty much nonsensical drivel vomited on paper.

So the warts and all aspect of the proposed comm, as you so wonderfully put it, showing your undies and your crooked toe and your body odor and your hair when you wake up in the morning, and letting it all hang out could be fascinating, but frustrating. Picking out someone's thought processes through subsequent drafts could be an exercise in futility because I find that the evolution of a fic is, as you've pointed out, amorphous. For me it's unchartable because what I thought I was going to write isn't necessarily what I end up writing. Maybe I'm just not disciplined enough to 'make' my writing do what I want it to do. Typically, I let it get away with whatever it wants and the more ambitious I try to be the less flexible the fic seems to be.

As for the DVD commentary thing!!! I love those. I'm actually in the process of writing two of them. One is for Vex Not the Roses and the other is for eyes like the summer, all beauty and truth.

And if you're going to do one, I'd love to read a commentary on the Five Things Post NFA.

If you want one, I'd be happy to do one. :)

Yeah, it looks like the comm wouldn't happen. Not enough people are interested. But I'll still harangue on it from time to time.

I do that too--write a lot for a week or two then abandon for months on end. But I don't really do drafts.

Picking out someone's thought processes through subsequent drafts could be an exercise in futility because I find that the evolution of a fic is, as you've pointed out, amorphous.

Well, it's easier to do when you have all the pieces. You still can't get inside someone's head and know why they did what they did, but actually getting to see the drafts is way deeper into process than you usually get to go.

And I'll do one for 5 Things...though probably only for the first part, which is what I'm going to do with the other two people requested. People picked my densest stuff, where every single word has meaning, and I'm finding it really really exhausting!

Just kidding ;-)

Sort of.

Great post, and I thought I was one of the rare people who enjoyed DVD commentaries.

And that's why you're such a great beta (aside from being a good writer yourself): you so thoroughly enjoy the writing process, thinking like the writer you're working with.

I'll do a chapter of SG if you really want me to. I've always meant to post it here anyway. I want all my fics in one place, dammit.

The first time I saw a DVD commentary thing for a fic I went nuts. There's so many times when you read a great fic, but the author is inaccessible or busy or you're just too shy, and you can't ask *what* inspired them to write that, and stuff.

And thanks. Yeah, I do love the process...but it's so much better when you're hashing it out with someone else who gets really enthused by the ideas, and you build off each other, and I always feel that way with you! *dances with you*

Ohh.... /jumps/ something good commentary! SWEET!!! Can I pick one? All fics in one place is ideal. That's why I don't post to other places besides fanfic.net. Once one was up there, I was too lazy to move any others around.

I had never even thought of a commentary for a fic. How original, and what a great idea! I love my SW annotated screenplays from way back when. It's great to see how the process evolves.

*offers hand for a waltz* The feeling is mutual!

Oh, sure, pick a chapter. It might take a while to get to it because I want to post SG here before I do commentary for it, but I'd definitely do it if you really wanted.

I didn't think of the idea of fic commentaries, but yeah, the first time I saw one I thought: that is so cool! Because yeah, how do people come up with stuff!

*now turn under*!!! :o)

Dang, I had forgotten how good SG is... it'll be tough to chose one chapter.

I wonder if one could ask the writer of bad fic, and say "Can you please explain to me how the heck you thought this would work?" But seriously, it's a fascinating idea. I don't know if published writers ever do that, release their process and rough drafts. But sometimes we get gems. The "lost" finale of Persuasion was awesome. Although I do prefer The Letter.

~*~one, two, three, now step together!"

I tend to think your questions are rather writer-processy, commentary-rich things in themselves. They definitely make me think about things I haven't that I can attempt to apply to my own writing. As you've said, some of these things are impossible to put into words--I don't know how much better you can say it. I think the first comm idea would be very difficult for all the reasons stated, as well as the problem of edits and how some of us edit-on-the-fly; would someone like that post every hour they worked on fic? Or wait until there's a substantial change in the draft?

The DVD commentary issue is interesting, as there are very few real DVD commentaries I like. And as you know, I love the filmmaking process--there's jsut something unhelpful (to me) about most of these tracks. The commentators say so many common-sense things, or else they rob their film of its meaning for me (when I discover the process was a lot less deep/interesting than I thought). I like the funny ones (as in, commentaries by people with a modicum of humor) and the in-character ones, and certain films have useful things to say. But on the whole I stay away. I've never read a commentary for a fic, though I definitely will read whatever you come up with for yours (and I'll attempt one of my own, if you're ever inclined and if i can remember jack about writing it).

I think we're learning something interesting about process from our little experiment, as well.

I tend to think your questions are rather writer-processy, commentary-rich things in themselves.

Well, that's good. It's what I'm getting at in a lot of my posts.

I think the first comm idea would be very difficult for all the reasons stated, as well as the problem of edits and how some of us edit-on-the-fly; would someone like that post every hour they worked on fic?

Yeah, I don't think I'm going to do it. What I am thinking about doing, though, is being the author-of-the-month myself, in my own journal. Just, posting an idea, and throughout the month building on it, writing to piece, to show what I would've wanted to happen with the comm. Because yeah, when to post and show what you've done would be a weird thing for the author, but there are enough times where I pause when I'm writing, and suddenly want to share, that I think there could be a steady flow.

Also, something alairzin_nyc mentioned above which I totally forgot, is I got this idea original from femmenerd, when she was writing her fanmix fic. She had a comm set up so betas and stuff could see what she was doing as she did it, and it was just really on the fly--whatever she did on it, she posted. It was *so* fun to see what she was doing.

Yeah, I hate most dvd commentaries for movies, though I love the *idea* of them. I can't believe how many of them are like, narrating the plot, or telling really random stories about so-and-so, instead of getting into the nitty gritty of how the lighting in that moment is an expression of the theme, or something, you know?

I think we're learning something interesting about process from our little experiment, as well.

Oh, yeah, definitely! Which reminds me, I really owe you a reply. And, other stuff. God, I'm such a slacker.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that nanowrimo.org has writing journals and stuff set up so you can see what your "friends" are working on. You can post bits of your novel in progress, and keep a work count, and discuss it all in the forums. So maybe you'd like to hang around there next month, even if you're not participating, because there's a chance you'll see into someone's writing-head. Though I haven't done it before, so I've no idea how active/faithful people are about recording their process.

I'd love to see what you do with the concept in your own journal--I just think it's going to be too much of a committment (writing-wise) to create a whole community. *but* if you do it, it has the potential to take off, and maybe you'll get some interest that way. I didn't see femmenerd's community, but it sounds really interesting!

Yeah, DVD commentaries usually convince me the guy who made the film has no idea how to make a film.

And we're all slackers, babe.

Oh, I think I'm doing nano this year. I know you're doing it, so maybe we can talk about our progress together. I really haven't looked around the site all that much, but I mean to . . .

Yeah, I think maybe it's more work than most people doing fanfic are really interested in. I like it as an idea for a writing workshop kind of thing, though. The problem with doing it myself is the fic ideas I have right now, I don't want anyone to see my process, because I want them to ooh and ahh over my final product, you know? So I'm going to try to come up with an idea that's exclusively for show. I don't know how that works, though.

Femme's community was locked. She only let me in because I kept commenting on her Faith/Dean posts, and she's always up late and one of the only people around that time of night, so we ended up talking about her fic a lot, and she asked me to beta.

It'd be cool if you did nano too, because I'm going to need all the help I can get.

I think it's a good idea to have a fic "just for show," because it takes the pressure off and you can choose something you know you can write and will be interesting to you but that you have less invested in as an "artist"--perhaps more as a craftsperson.

The problem is choosing an idea. I have lots of ideas for novels, but the one I'd really like to write is way, way way longer than the nano goal, so I'd write the required amount (maybe) and then it would just sit there. But if I did one of my potboiler ideas, I'd get it finished, maybe, but not enjoy myself. I dunno!

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

You wouldn't enjoy a potboiler? I'm thinking of something... I've been interested for a long time in trying to write about the actually bisexual position--as in, not a story about coming out, but about true confusion. Obviously with, like, a plot somewhere.

Yeah, I read that on one of your posts--I think it'd be really really interesting. If you ever want to discuss, hit me until I say huh? And then we can.

Okay, your offer is most welcome! I'm sure I will avail myself of it closer to time. (I never remember what I've talked about where)

Cool!

Oh, and if you're up for it, I'd love for you to do a commentary thing for "Shades".

Oh, okay! Sure thing. That's recent-ish, too, so I may actually have something to say.

Though now that I think about it, there's probably just as much to say about old fic, because even if you don't remember the process as well, you'll have the memories of its reception, or its life-post-posting, or how you feel now, etc... Hmm...

Yeah, the how you feel now element is always interesting to me. Some great writers I know hate the stuff they did earlier, but I still love it. I'm not really like that--my opinions of stuff I do changes, but I don't ever really stop loving it, which is nice for me.

Yay! I'm glad you're going to do that. I always wondered what you were thinking when you wrote that piece.

Well, it should be interesting for me, as well! I will have to search deep...

I really like your ideas for communities. I do agree that it might be hard to follow through on, though. Well, if these ever got set up, or if you know that something like this exists somewhere, let me know, and I will join it! =)

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Let's talk about process.

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Where's "Something Good?"

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