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Let's talk about process.
I wanna talk about process, but I don't know how.
Every discussion of the "writing process" that I've seen turns into someone saying, "I do this" and someone else saying, "I do that." That sharing is interesting to me, but I don't find it useful.
Wait, let me make a distinction here. There's process as it refers to how you write: like, you get in a quiet room and do it three hours every evening. And then there's process that refers to what you write: how you get from the ideas in your head to the paper/computer screen to a full fledged fic. There's process in between, that's less defined than the how and more defined than the what: as in, how many drafts you write, how you edit, etc etc.
When I say I don't benefit from other people sharing their processes I'm talking more about the last two kinds of process. As for the first kind, lots of writers have said stuff like, "write for thirty minutes as soon as you wake up!" or "I need to be in a public place with headphones on!" and that's people just saying, "I do this," and "I do that," except it's stuff I can try out for myself. I can try for myself to write for thirty minutes as soon as I wake up, and see whether it works for me or not.
With the what of process, that's less so. When someone talks about getting their ideas from their head to their page, their description always seems amorphous to me, like something I can't quite define or put my finger on. Part of that is authors just don't know: how do you describe a thought process, how you think, how your brain works? And part of it is that every single time, it's different. For every fic you've ever written, no matter how pat your "process" is, you've approached it differently, with different aspects of the plots and characters planned out and how you're going to work them in. So when a writer describes her general what process, I kind of phase out. It's so non-specific; I can't think how to apply those process to myself, how to experiment with them to make myself a better writer. (See, this is what I get from discussion. I'm not really interested in you; I'm interested in how what you do can apply to me. I'm so self-absorbed. It's all about me me me.)
Now, this is why I love to beta, to discuss authors' fic with the authors, to be a sounding board for ideas and really immerse myself in someone else's half-formed world, because that's really the closest you ever get to someone else's process. (You thought I liked to beta because I am nice and sugar sweet and love you all? No, really I'm just selfish. Ha! Also, I get to see things before they get posted and that gives me, like, a deep down completely self-centered thrill.) Instead of someone trying to describe to you some nebulous concept, talking with someone about their ideas is someone showing you exactly how that process is applied. And even when I don't come away from those discussions, or betas, or brainstorming sessions with specific ways the process I just spied in on applies to me, I always feel afterwards like my mind is wider, like I have new ways to approach things.
I want to make it clear that what I get from that kind of idea-share are not specific ideas, and that's not what I'm looking for. If I'm beta'ing Author A's Wesley/Xander piece, I'm not trawling through that fic looking for W/X ideas, or ideas about Wesley, or nuances of Xander's voice. I mean, sometimes specific ideas do crop up in beta'ing or discussion--fics do get sparked that way and I can't see a single reason that's not a valid vanue of inspiration. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how in reading something that's not finished, or in discussing questions about where a fic should go, or in just a mutual brainstorming session, you see how Author A applies her ideas, how she goes about implementing them, what she starts with before she puts pen to page and what she ends up with. And I find what I gain from seeing that process difficult to describe, just as I find Author A's discussion of What Her Process Is difficult unless she's coming to me with a specific fic to discuss or beta or play around in.
Does this make sense? I don't know. I don't really have a point here; it's more of an observation. I don't have my usual sets of questions to encourage discussion, because I guess if there is a point, the point is I feel like process is kind of impossible to discuss. The only thing that's actually constructive that I have to add is an idea for a comm that deals with this, and I'm just wondering about who and how many would be interested. Here's the idea: once a month, authors would volunteer, and the members of the comm would pick one author. Once the author is picked, she shares with the comm her idea for a story. Over the course of the month, she would write that story, and share every single piece of writing she does for it, every scrap and idea and bit and piece--that is, she'd share her process as much as she could. And the other members of the comm could discuss that process, what the author is doing, how she's collating her ideas, how she's implementing them, whether she's succeeding, what she needs to work on. Here's the thing--the author wouldn't need to use or even read *any* of those discussions, comments, or observations. It wouldn't really be about con critting or a comm project to create this great story. It would be more about the audience--that is, everyone who isn't the author that month--getting to spy on someone else's process, and learning from that experience, than the author herself.
The thing is I'm not sure I'd be comfortable being an author for a comm like that. Sharing every single bit would be like showing your undies and your crooked toe and your body odor and your hair when you wake up in the morning, and letting it all hang out there like that is really intimidating. And if you knew people were watching, would you really be going through your natural process? Or would it be affected? The other thing is that people would need to participate for it to really work, and I've noticed with a lot of comms I've joined that they seem like great ideas, but they rarely get followed through. But hey, if anyone is interested, let me know what you think about it. I would try really hard for a resource like that, a comm like that that's there to really learn something about ourselves, you know?
Oh, the other thing. DVD commentaries. I love those things, because that's getting to spy on process too. They're kind of backwards, because you don't get to see the fic form so much as hear an author tell you how it formed, which in some way is less beneficial to me personally as a writer, but dude, what people have to say about where their ideas come from, and how they get their details to work, is just so fucking interesting. I've wanted to do one for quite a while, because I love to hear myself talk (can you tell?) but I wouldn't want to do one if no one was interested. Sooo, if you are, here is a list of my fanfiction, and pick one and I will do it for you. I don't have that much, and one is a WIP, but I can do chapters. Pick one! And, if you're willing to do one for your own fic, let me know and I'll pick one back, and eagerly await what you have to say . . .
ETA:![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
liz_marcs came up with the idea that there could be a comm based around dvd commentaries, in which a different author or two every two weeks or so posts dvd commentaries for stories they've written. Then there could be discussions with the author about what they did, and discussions about how the writer's ideas and stuff got implemented. It would also be beneficial to the authors posting the commentaries--it always helps to look back and figure out how you wrote something. As I told liz_marcs, the only thing that doesn't jazz me about a comm like that is there'd be deadlines, with authors having to post things by a certain date, and often people burn out on that really quick, and I don't want to start a comm that dies. But, hey, say whether you'd be interested, or whether you'd try, and what you think. I'd love to know!
Every discussion of the "writing process" that I've seen turns into someone saying, "I do this" and someone else saying, "I do that." That sharing is interesting to me, but I don't find it useful.
Wait, let me make a distinction here. There's process as it refers to how you write: like, you get in a quiet room and do it three hours every evening. And then there's process that refers to what you write: how you get from the ideas in your head to the paper/computer screen to a full fledged fic. There's process in between, that's less defined than the how and more defined than the what: as in, how many drafts you write, how you edit, etc etc.
When I say I don't benefit from other people sharing their processes I'm talking more about the last two kinds of process. As for the first kind, lots of writers have said stuff like, "write for thirty minutes as soon as you wake up!" or "I need to be in a public place with headphones on!" and that's people just saying, "I do this," and "I do that," except it's stuff I can try out for myself. I can try for myself to write for thirty minutes as soon as I wake up, and see whether it works for me or not.
With the what of process, that's less so. When someone talks about getting their ideas from their head to their page, their description always seems amorphous to me, like something I can't quite define or put my finger on. Part of that is authors just don't know: how do you describe a thought process, how you think, how your brain works? And part of it is that every single time, it's different. For every fic you've ever written, no matter how pat your "process" is, you've approached it differently, with different aspects of the plots and characters planned out and how you're going to work them in. So when a writer describes her general what process, I kind of phase out. It's so non-specific; I can't think how to apply those process to myself, how to experiment with them to make myself a better writer. (See, this is what I get from discussion. I'm not really interested in you; I'm interested in how what you do can apply to me. I'm so self-absorbed. It's all about me me me.)
Now, this is why I love to beta, to discuss authors' fic with the authors, to be a sounding board for ideas and really immerse myself in someone else's half-formed world, because that's really the closest you ever get to someone else's process. (You thought I liked to beta because I am nice and sugar sweet and love you all? No, really I'm just selfish. Ha! Also, I get to see things before they get posted and that gives me, like, a deep down completely self-centered thrill.) Instead of someone trying to describe to you some nebulous concept, talking with someone about their ideas is someone showing you exactly how that process is applied. And even when I don't come away from those discussions, or betas, or brainstorming sessions with specific ways the process I just spied in on applies to me, I always feel afterwards like my mind is wider, like I have new ways to approach things.
I want to make it clear that what I get from that kind of idea-share are not specific ideas, and that's not what I'm looking for. If I'm beta'ing Author A's Wesley/Xander piece, I'm not trawling through that fic looking for W/X ideas, or ideas about Wesley, or nuances of Xander's voice. I mean, sometimes specific ideas do crop up in beta'ing or discussion--fics do get sparked that way and I can't see a single reason that's not a valid vanue of inspiration. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how in reading something that's not finished, or in discussing questions about where a fic should go, or in just a mutual brainstorming session, you see how Author A applies her ideas, how she goes about implementing them, what she starts with before she puts pen to page and what she ends up with. And I find what I gain from seeing that process difficult to describe, just as I find Author A's discussion of What Her Process Is difficult unless she's coming to me with a specific fic to discuss or beta or play around in.
Does this make sense? I don't know. I don't really have a point here; it's more of an observation. I don't have my usual sets of questions to encourage discussion, because I guess if there is a point, the point is I feel like process is kind of impossible to discuss. The only thing that's actually constructive that I have to add is an idea for a comm that deals with this, and I'm just wondering about who and how many would be interested. Here's the idea: once a month, authors would volunteer, and the members of the comm would pick one author. Once the author is picked, she shares with the comm her idea for a story. Over the course of the month, she would write that story, and share every single piece of writing she does for it, every scrap and idea and bit and piece--that is, she'd share her process as much as she could. And the other members of the comm could discuss that process, what the author is doing, how she's collating her ideas, how she's implementing them, whether she's succeeding, what she needs to work on. Here's the thing--the author wouldn't need to use or even read *any* of those discussions, comments, or observations. It wouldn't really be about con critting or a comm project to create this great story. It would be more about the audience--that is, everyone who isn't the author that month--getting to spy on someone else's process, and learning from that experience, than the author herself.
The thing is I'm not sure I'd be comfortable being an author for a comm like that. Sharing every single bit would be like showing your undies and your crooked toe and your body odor and your hair when you wake up in the morning, and letting it all hang out there like that is really intimidating. And if you knew people were watching, would you really be going through your natural process? Or would it be affected? The other thing is that people would need to participate for it to really work, and I've noticed with a lot of comms I've joined that they seem like great ideas, but they rarely get followed through. But hey, if anyone is interested, let me know what you think about it. I would try really hard for a resource like that, a comm like that that's there to really learn something about ourselves, you know?
Oh, the other thing. DVD commentaries. I love those things, because that's getting to spy on process too. They're kind of backwards, because you don't get to see the fic form so much as hear an author tell you how it formed, which in some way is less beneficial to me personally as a writer, but dude, what people have to say about where their ideas come from, and how they get their details to work, is just so fucking interesting. I've wanted to do one for quite a while, because I love to hear myself talk (can you tell?) but I wouldn't want to do one if no one was interested. Sooo, if you are, here is a list of my fanfiction, and pick one and I will do it for you. I don't have that much, and one is a WIP, but I can do chapters. Pick one! And, if you're willing to do one for your own fic, let me know and I'll pick one back, and eagerly await what you have to say . . .
ETA:
liz_marcs came up with the idea that there could be a comm based around dvd commentaries, in which a different author or two every two weeks or so posts dvd commentaries for stories they've written. Then there could be discussions with the author about what they did, and discussions about how the writer's ideas and stuff got implemented. It would also be beneficial to the authors posting the commentaries--it always helps to look back and figure out how you wrote something. As I told liz_marcs, the only thing that doesn't jazz me about a comm like that is there'd be deadlines, with authors having to post things by a certain date, and often people burn out on that really quick, and I don't want to start a comm that dies. But, hey, say whether you'd be interested, or whether you'd try, and what you think. I'd love to know!
no subject
But I am definitely interested in the STORY and not in the AUTHOR. Does that make sense?
Well, I think so. But so much of the author gets put into a story. What I mean is, in some of the commentaries I've read, I'll be *aching* to know why someone did something the way they did, or how they came up with that, or whatever, and the reason turns out to be something personal (they did that part because of a big long story about their cat, you know?) And often enough the author did add it "just 'cause", but how they used that rl experience, how they incorporated it, how they made it fit the story--even if they just talk about the rl experience without talking about how it fit with the themes of the story--I can look at it and say huh, you're doing that had this effect.
That's not nearly so interesting if the part of the fic they're talking about *isn't* something that's important or integral to the story, isn't something that adds so much it makes me wonder how they got the idea, you know? Sometimes people throw things into stories because they feel like it, and those things don't *fit*. But a good writer will put things in without quite knowing *why*, and when they write the commentary they *still* might not know why, but from the outside I can see how it works for the story, and from their commentary I get how they used what they knew/felt to create something for their fiction, even if that use wasn't intentional.
Does that make sense? I guess that's what I'm trying to say about process. You can't describe it, and with some people, they don't even *consciously* know why what they do works. But when you watch them, or help them, or hear about it afterwards, you're that much closer to knowing where they were when they came up with what they did, and how they knew what to include.
I'm sorry. I'm rambling. It's late and I need fluffy pillows.
no subject
I think what I'm getting at with my comment about AUTHORS is that I'm not interested in reading the self-aggrandizing stuff. I have no good examples, when what I need right now are examples! Some stuff is sort of, "I did this because I am so very cool," and that just kind of irritates me as a writer - I get nothing out of it but disdain for the story I thought I loved.
Does that make sense? I guess that's what I'm trying to say about process. You can't describe it, and with some people, they don't even *consciously* know why what they do works. But when you watch them, or help them, or hear about it afterwards, you're that much closer to knowing where they were when they came up with what they did, and how they knew what to include.
Here's a great example of something that was like DVD commentary that really WORKED for me.
That's the key for me, in what you're saying, that experience. I loved it.
I learned a lot about her, about her writing process, about my reading and writing and those particular characters. Could that whole thing be duplicated? Yes, I think it could. But could a comm capture the passion that Femme had at that exact moment? More difficult, certainly, but not any less an admirable goal.
Back to the other topic - I often don't want to know EXACTLY why someone put something into a sentence, or fic. I think I don't want everyone to know that sometimes I just had a flash of a hot sunny day and that's why that character had the same memory. It's so arbitrary, and as such, personal.
If it turned out well, then it's better that the reader thinks I'm brilliant and clever and never knows that I'm just a person sitting here with issues and trying to amuse myself with stories.
So I don't *ache* as you put it to know all. Unless we're talking about RL authors, in which case I do *ache* to know how Graham Greene decided the protagonist in "Heart of the Matter" came to his disbelief and ultimate suicide and whether he ever, at any point in the story, had a chance at salvation.
In this way, I think there are authors who really could hold my attention for hours in a discussion of their process, again -- I may not have the right perspective on DVD commentary, not having read the right authors.
Ah, fluffy pillows, you are so elusive.
no subject
Oh, I gotcha. Yeah, that's lame.
[info]femmenerd. When she did that fic-mix-fic.
That's when I got this idea. My feelings were just like yours--it was so cool to see the story come together, and to see Femme's thought processes as they went, to see the different versions and see how she implemented her ideas. That is exactly what I would want for the comm I'm talking about, an author who shares her process in that way, and perhaps a bit more from the peanut gallery talking about the author rather than to the author, but in the end, the "audience" gaining that experience of something coming together. Because yeah, as you said, seeing how Femme worked, that was *awesome*.
I often don't want to know EXACTLY why someone put something into a sentence, or fic.
I don't always want to know. If someone did a commentary for every single thing they ever wrote, even if it was my favorite author and I was *curious*, I wouldn't want to read more than one or two, because that might ruin the reading experience. I'd be wondering how she wrote something rather than enjoying the piece for itself, and I already do that far too much with what I read as is!
I think I don't want everyone to know that sometimes I just had a flash of a hot sunny day and that's why that character had the same memory. [...]If it turned out well, then it's better that the reader thinks I'm brilliant and clever and never knows that I'm just a person sitting here with issues and trying to amuse myself with stories.
I don't know how to say it, but we're *all* just people with issues trying to amuse ourselves. I mean I read some fics, and think, DUDE, this author is a GOD, but I'm never not aware that it's a nerdy fan getting her jollies off Angel and Buffy, you know? Hoping that the reader thinks you're anything more seems to be . . . I don't know, either expecting too much from your readers, or not respecting their intelligence enough.
Unless we're talking about RL authors
That's interesting. Maybe you expect more intelligent commentary from RL authors, when the fans you've read seem to just say a lot of their bits are arbitrary. Which yeah, doesn't make for interesting dvd commentaries.
You're so right! My pillows are so flat.