lettered | This is pretty much what I have to say right now.

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This is pretty much what I have to say right now.

I'm interested in porn.
I'm interested in rape.
I'm interested in pedophilia.
I'm interested in incest.

To clarify, and I shouldn't have to, I'm interested in fictional porn, rape, pedophilia, and incest.

To clarify even further, which I rather resent since everyone should be interested in this, I'm interested in your right to write fictional porn, rape, pedophilia, and incest, whether I want to read it or not. Which for the most part I don't.

I'm not interested in getting censored, getting silenced, or getting kicked off livejournal. Which (so far, and as far as we know) lj can do, is doing, and feels it must for legal reasons. And, in response to that, I'm interested in what we can do to protest such actions, to Six Apart and whoever or whatever else is involved in whatever is going on.

Because in the end, what I'm really interested in is not censoring or silencing myself. I'm not interested in getting scared or anxious about this. You want to kick me out of the house, kick me out, but I'm not stuffing my dirty magazines under my mattress. I'm not interested in changing my interests lists or locking down old posts.

Because in the end, what I'm really interested in is porn, rape, pedophilia, and incest, and there's not a damn thing anyone else can do about that.

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Yes.

I read your last post after I did mine; I could've just linked.

'Cause. Yes.

I ♥ you.

<3 back

*kiss*

I wish there were lj virtual gifts of incest.

They have flaming bags of poo. Why not incest??? Discrimination, I say.

Also, WTF AM I STILL AWAKE.

Bed now. Yes.

I think it's good to clarify - cause you enjoy the fictional rape and incest and what have you.

If you enjoyed the rl stuff - you'd be bit . . . . creepy . . . and the virtual world is full of people who do.

Mostly the incest fic's don't get me. I've only read one that I could appreciate - but it still didn't glorify it as such. I find pedophilia fic disturbing. (And I find it really disturbing when H/Snape or D/Snape shippers DON'T REALISE)

A lot of people fantasize about rape - it's the whole being helpless thing - but are very clear about the difference between being fantasy and actually being raped.

Unfortunately there are lots of people who wouldn't understand the distinction if it danced naked upon a harpsichord singing distinctions are here again. - I suspect some of them are behind this.

(WE know - but random trolls may not)

However notice from the wording of the explanation LJ gave then if you listed incest survivors or similar as an interest (presumably as a support group) and it got reported.

- They would still have to ban you. . . . . that's messed up

I think it's good to clarify - cause you enjoy the fictional rape and incest and what have you.
If you enjoyed the rl stuff - you'd be bit . . . . creepy . . . and the virtual world is full of people who do.

On a personal level, I want to clarify, because I don't want any of my friends to think I'm a rapist or that I think pedophilia is fascinating. But what I mean is, no matter how creepy it makes me, I *should* be able to say I'm interested in incest, without qualifiers, and not get kicked out of a public place.

They would still have to ban you

As I understand it, this is what is happening. People who have it listed because they're against it, because they survived it, etc, are getting kicked.

But. . . .and I have to ask cause it's be squicking me for days; do you enjoy reading about grown-ups getting it on with little kids and everythings hunky dory?

No. I do not enjoy reading chan or pedaphilia. It's one of the few things that can totally squick me.

I like reading some incest, but when the parties involved are on or around the age of consent. I like a bunch of fucked up shit. And if it bothers you, I understand.

But I will defend HARD anyone's right to write about anything that squicks you, me, or anyone.

No that's cool - I haven't had an issues with the free speech argument.

But there have been people on my flist who have been quite sincerely saying that pedo fic is ok cause it's not real. But no matter how you dress it up; they're still getting off on small children being molested by adults. And I'm 100% not ok with that; and I think they are encouraging it in real life by normalizing it and writing kids that enjoy it.

And who's to say that in these communities we don't have real pedophiles writing about their real life experiences or fantasies and dressing it up as fic and getting off on the fact that people are telling them how great they are. No one would ever know.

Very Scary thought.

Well, my point is I find pedo fic okay. It squicks me personally, but I don't have a problem with other people writing it, as long as they are doing the things necessary to keep any underaged people or any adults who don't want to read that from having to see it.

I do not think I am encouraging incest by reading and enjoying fics with incest in them. I do not feel that I am encouraging incest by writing fics with incest in them.

I will discuss why I feel this way with you as much as you care to. But again, if it makes you uncomfortable or offends you you should defriend me, because I am not going to change. I do understand how you feel, but I have different beliefs.

who's to say that in these communities we don't have real pedophiles writing about their real life experiences or fantasies and dressing it up as fic and getting off on the fact that people are telling them how great they are. No one would ever know.

This is very true, and the CEO of 6A made this point when he posted his apology for deleting fictional journals. It sickens me that there could be real pedophiles encouraged by fanfiction incest; it sickens me that a father could concievably read a story I've written and feel encouraged about having sex with his son.

But there's a choice to be made here. It's take that risk, or silence yourself, and in the end I'm going to take the risk. The reason is because I think writing fictional stories about our kinks--however monstrous or evil these kinks are--benefits us in so many more ways than just getting us off. For those who have suffered from rape, pedophilia, or incest, sometimes rape, pedophilia, or incest gets them off, either because the abuse triggered that in them or they always had it. Stories about that stuff can help them to heal. Even the stories that do not reflect the true horror of these acts, and sometimes especially those stories, allow someone who suffered that to lead healthier, more normal lives. And I do not doubt that those who teeter on the brink of doing some of these terrible things escape that temptation through fiction. I do not believe that any kink is fundamentally wrong, only acting on it is.

From what I've seen the majority of us aren't victims or borderline molesters, but even for someone like me, who lives a relatively normal life, exploring these things in fiction makes me healthier. I don't know why fictional incest turns me on; it certainly squicks me the fuck out when I think about it in RL. But I knew I had that kink long before I found online textual porn, and I can't really say what outlets I would've had to explore it if I didn't have the chance to write and read these stories. Some of the paths I might've chosen could've led to danger, other to simple repression and less a feeling of confidence and freedom.

I hope you understand what I am getting at here.

I do, but I'm not talking about incest - that's a whole other issue.

And I'm not going to disagree that there are a lot of other facets of the fic involved that may or may not be cathartic to survivors etc.

I just really worry that we appear to be creating a community in which pedophiles would not only feel welcome but normal and protected and there seems to be an atmosphere that any criticism at all is immediately censorship and evil and wrong.

Especially when you get people doing just about anything to be noticed by a BNF and crossing your eyes the wrong way leads to a kerfuffle.

And this is something that in all our outrage over being silenced never got mentioned.

I'm thinking maybe we need to self regulate more - how I don't know. It's like spider-man; with great power comes great responsibility.

To me incest is not another issue at all. Especially because incest so often involves both rape and pedophilia in RL. To say it is okay to write one thing that would be wrong in RL because it does not technically apply to children seems disingenuous to me. If pedophiles really are reading our stories, they can feel encouraged by any of the wrong acts we write about and seek to perpetrate them on children, no matter the age of character in the story they read.

we appear to be creating a community in which pedophiles would not only feel welcome but normal and protected

I strongly disagree. If we were building such a community here, it is conceivable that a pedo among us would feel normal and protected when he comes right out and admit he's a pedo. I don't think a *anyone* who feels a part of this community, and thus reads the things we have to say, would feel normal or protected in doing that. There are far, far too many of us who have said repeatedly that we believe pedophilia is wrong in RL, and furthermore that it's sick and disgusts us and we'll report anyone who says (s)he is one or we suspect of being one.

Perhaps you are suggesting that by reading these stories/participating in this community, a pedo might feel normal and protected about his desires, even if he knows we do not think him normal and will not protect what he does in reality. That is very true! But again, I do not believe having a certain kink is evil; I believe acting on it is. I do understand that some people do not understand this distinction--that writing about doing something is not the same as doing it. But with such people many distinctions fall through the cracks. Such people might, for instance, read Lolita and identify with Humbert Humbert and miss the part about how pedophilia is wrong.

So on one hand, I understand how fics about pedophilia can encourage pedophiles. On the other, I must reiterate that I am willing to take that risk, and to support anyone who does so.

there seems to be an atmosphere that any criticism at all is immediately censorship and evil and wrong. [...] Especially when you get people doing just about anything to be noticed by a BNF and crossing your eyes the wrong way leads to a kerfuffle.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I'm distinguishing between pedophilia & incest because it 'sometimes' involves underage kids whereas pedaphilia always does. (and I'm using 'sometimes' loosely I'll admit.)

I'm also not saying it's wrong to write about pedophelia. However I'd suggest that a lot of people (not every one) on LJ do it because it is trendy, or to impress someone they admire and without doing a lot of research or thinking about the ramifications of what they are writing. - Which you clearly have. I think if a person is going to write about controversial issues you need to consider these things - just as a writer would consider which word to use.

(And there are a lot of people on LJ who don't do that either. You aren't one of them)

But I figured out why this issue is worrying me so. A while ago a girl we knows boyfriend got let out of goal. We hadn't seen her in a while although we used to be friends. Turned out he got locked up for 'fiddling with a kid'. This girl was determined to stand by her man. He was innocent. It was a trumped up charge - they were out for revenge.

Now my brother in law once got done for driving an unregistered vehicle, drunk, while unlicensed, resisting arrest and assaulting a cop. He got let off of everything. So knowing that it's near impossible to get locked up - we didn't believe that this guy was innocent. They must have had something good on him.
;
Sure enough 2 weeks after he got out he set up a stand with her at a market held; at a residential deaf and blind school. His Idea.

We dropped all contact with her after that. My husband works in a school and I volunteer with a youth group so this was a person we not only didn't want to associate with - but couldn't risk associating with.

I guess that her refusal to deal with what was fairly obviously going on has just made me a bit jumpy about the issue.

I'm rather like Mrs Lovejoy in the Simpsons shouting "Won't Somebody think of the Children"
Or possibly like Moe that one time.

The whole censorship issue fills me with rage, and I'm not interested in fictional incest, pedophilia, or rape.

To clarify even further, which I rather resent since everyone should be interested in this, I'm interested in your right to write fictional porn, rape, pedophilia, and incest, whether I want to read it or not. Which for the most part I don't.

Word.

I do read some incest, and I enjoy stories of dubious consent, but for the most part I pretty much stay away from that stuff. But I defend like whoa anyone's right to write it.

haha your icon. Dude, wtf is up with fandom?

haha your icon. Dude, wtf is up with fandom?

No kidding. I bet Chris Williams breathed a sigh of relief when SA's ginormeous asshattery drew all the attention away from fanlib. But hey, maybe now the fanlib guys at least understand our paranoia somewhat better. (Acutally, is it still paranoia if they're really after you? :P

To clarify even further, which I rather resent since everyone should be interested in this, I'm interested in your right to write fictional porn, rape, pedophilia, and incest, whether I want to read it or not. Which for the most part I don't.

Just, yes.

Moral panics inevitably get ugly.

But this is the great conundrum of the internet - we communicate over *private* channels, completely at the sufferance of the powers that be. The closest analogy I can think of is those old freedom-to-assemble cases that involved people picketing/protesting at shopping malls. IIRC the courts said largely no, shopping malls are private property and they can throw you off anytime.

Same for websites, archives, etc. Even if you have your own web site, you're still bound by the legal provisions of who provides your service.

This might have originally been a libertarian dream, but in effect it's turning into a constitutional-rights nightmare.

This is a minor point - I noticed in one of your links that one of the deleted LJ groups was dedicated to studying and discussing Vladimir Nabokov's book Lolita. I wonder if Nabokov would have been able to get Lolita even published today, much less face the threat of arrest under some vaguely worded federal "child pornography" statute.

I LOVE YOUR ICON.

Even if you have your own web site, you're still bound by the legal provisions of who provides your service.

See, this I understand and have always known. Many people are saying, "free speech! public place!" but it's not public and I don't really see how the freedom applies. There are arguments that can be made, but I'm not sure they hold up.

But that doesn't mean anyone HAS to follow lj's rules. Only if they want to stay on. I'd rather speak freely than stay on, so that's that. Of course, it's easy for me as I don't have those things listed as interests and I really don't have that kinda content in my journal.

I wonder if Nabokov would have been able to get Lolita even published today,

I dunno, though, Lolita is about the wrongness of pedophilia, even if it highlights the titillation of it, and contemporary lit seems to really really revel in perversion, crime, and wrong, far more explicitly than it ever did in any previous decade or century. Yes, it tends to be dealt with very seriously, and meant to horrify rather than titillate...except that horror is a form of titillation. Anyway, the Marquis de Sade might still not get published, but something describing everything he does and saying it's wrong might.

And yeah, there's people who protest even the stuff like Lolita and try to get that stuff banned, but really I haven't seen them being all that successful except against stuff with no legal protection, like fanfic.

Thanks - my daughter made the icon for me (she is a wiz with Paintshop Pro.)

*hugs*

It's all gone crazy! *clings back*

*sigh* Here we go again.

I do understand the desire to rid entities like lj and myspace of (particularly) child predators, and I can't and won't argue with that idea. I do believe that it is the responsibility of the community to protect those who are unable to protect themselves.

However, this type of bulk action dependant on the information of one group (or individual) is problematic. Unfortunately, some of these groups don't do their homework about who is a predator and who is supporting an adults-only group of writers or fans that should have the right to read/write/discuss whatever they deem interesting. And, the idea that "incest survivor" groups should be included is a sad demonstration of this failure.

I do not support censorship. If you (generic) want to write about rape, incest, pedophilia, whatever -- that's your right, and I'll support it to the Supreme Court and past.

Well, exactly.

Sometimes I think I can't love you more, and then you go all porny on me.

Thanks for this, and for all the info. It's a mess out here.

ha, <3 you too, K.

Sorry all the links were kinda haphazard! Definitely a mess and it's frustrating when I don't know exactly what's going on.

I didn't mean to imply your links were haphazard--what's the proper order for that stuff, anyway?

I didn't think you were implying that; I just felt they were that way myself.

There's not, really, but some compilation posts have just been way more coherent than others. As someone who's interested in fannish history, debate, academic discourse, and also fannish brouhaha, I despair of posts that just splash links all over the place that I have to bring order and summaries to.

Yes. I still don't have a procedure for that, either. I'm into fandom for primarily the reasons you listed, more than the actual "products" themselves. But my study is haphazard as yet.

There was an interesting post linked on metafandom (I'll find it for you if you wish) about how F_W is actually one of the best resources we have insofar as fannish history and current events. Which is...in some ways a really big shame. As amusing as I find F_W it's purpose is to trash and mock. I wish we had a fan history wiki. It's been talked about forever but no one does anything about it.

I'll find that post. And I need to catch up on F_W. But for me, although there is a lot of trashing and mocking, I don't think that motivates everyone involved over there. There are lots of people like us, too.

I've seen aborted starts at fandom wikis, or at least plans for one. It really is a large need. I wonder what it would take to get one (that's comprehensive and fandom-wide) going.

Oh, I dunno. The mission statement of FW is to mock. As I am one who likes to mock, I'm perfectly willing to admit they're people like us. Well, they are us. They are not a them.

I'm hoping with all this fandom solidarity everyone's got goin' we might have more of a chance at getting started on that.

I don't mean to say that there's not an element of mockery to F_W or to us as readers/contributors (I still yearn for a JF account to make it easier). But I think that there are lots of "us" who want to mock and learn at the same time. There's very little I'm above mocking, you know. Even the things I love.

Let's hope so. I feel a responsibility to "work on" POTO fandom history; though mostly I want to write that book about all the versions.

Thank you. This mass censorship is ridiculous. What kills me is that beyond those interested in *fictional* race, incest, etc, they're banning people who are interested in *talking* about rape, incest, etc. Even if they're talking in the negative. I just don't understand it. I support them looking for truly offensive, harmful material and banning those specific users, but their actions don't resemble those methods at all.

they're banning people who are interested in *talking* about rape, incest, etc.

Exactly. I mean, I'm actually not so interested in most rape fics, but rape as a REAL LIFE concept I'm desperately interested in. All females should be because we NEED to know about it, how to prevent it, what it is, how to deal with it.

But if lj is going to start deleting journals with any mention of it without checking to see that they truly are interested in rape in a way that is going to harm real live people, we can't talk about it at all. It makes me BOILING MAD, semby.

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This is pretty much what I have to say right now.

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