This is pretty much what I have to say right now.

[lettered]

I'm interested in porn.
I'm interested in rape.
I'm interested in pedophilia.
I'm interested in incest.

To clarify, and I shouldn't have to, I'm interested in fictional porn, rape, pedophilia, and incest.

To clarify even further, which I rather resent since everyone should be interested in this, I'm interested in your right to write fictional porn, rape, pedophilia, and incest, whether I want to read it or not. Which for the most part I don't.

I'm not interested in getting censored, getting silenced, or getting kicked off livejournal. Which (so far, and as far as we know) lj can do, is doing, and feels it must for legal reasons. And, in response to that, I'm interested in what we can do to protest such actions, to Six Apart and whoever or whatever else is involved in whatever is going on.

Because in the end, what I'm really interested in is not censoring or silencing myself. I'm not interested in getting scared or anxious about this. You want to kick me out of the house, kick me out, but I'm not stuffing my dirty magazines under my mattress. I'm not interested in changing my interests lists or locking down old posts.

Because in the end, what I'm really interested in is porn, rape, pedophilia, and incest, and there's not a damn thing anyone else can do about that.

Comments

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Well, my point is I find pedo fic okay. It squicks me personally, but I don't have a problem with other people writing it, as long as they are doing the things necessary to keep any underaged people or any adults who don't want to read that from having to see it.

I do not think I am encouraging incest by reading and enjoying fics with incest in them. I do not feel that I am encouraging incest by writing fics with incest in them.

I will discuss why I feel this way with you as much as you care to. But again, if it makes you uncomfortable or offends you you should defriend me, because I am not going to change. I do understand how you feel, but I have different beliefs.

who's to say that in these communities we don't have real pedophiles writing about their real life experiences or fantasies and dressing it up as fic and getting off on the fact that people are telling them how great they are. No one would ever know.

This is very true, and the CEO of 6A made this point when he posted his apology for deleting fictional journals. It sickens me that there could be real pedophiles encouraged by fanfiction incest; it sickens me that a father could concievably read a story I've written and feel encouraged about having sex with his son.

But there's a choice to be made here. It's take that risk, or silence yourself, and in the end I'm going to take the risk. The reason is because I think writing fictional stories about our kinks--however monstrous or evil these kinks are--benefits us in so many more ways than just getting us off. For those who have suffered from rape, pedophilia, or incest, sometimes rape, pedophilia, or incest gets them off, either because the abuse triggered that in them or they always had it. Stories about that stuff can help them to heal. Even the stories that do not reflect the true horror of these acts, and sometimes especially those stories, allow someone who suffered that to lead healthier, more normal lives. And I do not doubt that those who teeter on the brink of doing some of these terrible things escape that temptation through fiction. I do not believe that any kink is fundamentally wrong, only acting on it is.

From what I've seen the majority of us aren't victims or borderline molesters, but even for someone like me, who lives a relatively normal life, exploring these things in fiction makes me healthier. I don't know why fictional incest turns me on; it certainly squicks me the fuck out when I think about it in RL. But I knew I had that kink long before I found online textual porn, and I can't really say what outlets I would've had to explore it if I didn't have the chance to write and read these stories. Some of the paths I might've chosen could've led to danger, other to simple repression and less a feeling of confidence and freedom.

I hope you understand what I am getting at here.

[i-palimpsest.livejournal.com]

I do, but I'm not talking about incest - that's a whole other issue.

And I'm not going to disagree that there are a lot of other facets of the fic involved that may or may not be cathartic to survivors etc.

I just really worry that we appear to be creating a community in which pedophiles would not only feel welcome but normal and protected and there seems to be an atmosphere that any criticism at all is immediately censorship and evil and wrong.

Especially when you get people doing just about anything to be noticed by a BNF and crossing your eyes the wrong way leads to a kerfuffle.

And this is something that in all our outrage over being silenced never got mentioned.

I'm thinking maybe we need to self regulate more - how I don't know. It's like spider-man; with great power comes great responsibility.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

To me incest is not another issue at all. Especially because incest so often involves both rape and pedophilia in RL. To say it is okay to write one thing that would be wrong in RL because it does not technically apply to children seems disingenuous to me. If pedophiles really are reading our stories, they can feel encouraged by any of the wrong acts we write about and seek to perpetrate them on children, no matter the age of character in the story they read.

we appear to be creating a community in which pedophiles would not only feel welcome but normal and protected

I strongly disagree. If we were building such a community here, it is conceivable that a pedo among us would feel normal and protected when he comes right out and admit he's a pedo. I don't think a *anyone* who feels a part of this community, and thus reads the things we have to say, would feel normal or protected in doing that. There are far, far too many of us who have said repeatedly that we believe pedophilia is wrong in RL, and furthermore that it's sick and disgusts us and we'll report anyone who says (s)he is one or we suspect of being one.

Perhaps you are suggesting that by reading these stories/participating in this community, a pedo might feel normal and protected about his desires, even if he knows we do not think him normal and will not protect what he does in reality. That is very true! But again, I do not believe having a certain kink is evil; I believe acting on it is. I do understand that some people do not understand this distinction--that writing about doing something is not the same as doing it. But with such people many distinctions fall through the cracks. Such people might, for instance, read Lolita and identify with Humbert Humbert and miss the part about how pedophilia is wrong.

So on one hand, I understand how fics about pedophilia can encourage pedophiles. On the other, I must reiterate that I am willing to take that risk, and to support anyone who does so.

there seems to be an atmosphere that any criticism at all is immediately censorship and evil and wrong. [...] Especially when you get people doing just about anything to be noticed by a BNF and crossing your eyes the wrong way leads to a kerfuffle.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

[i-palimpsest.livejournal.com]

I'm distinguishing between pedophilia & incest because it 'sometimes' involves underage kids whereas pedaphilia always does. (and I'm using 'sometimes' loosely I'll admit.)

I'm also not saying it's wrong to write about pedophelia. However I'd suggest that a lot of people (not every one) on LJ do it because it is trendy, or to impress someone they admire and without doing a lot of research or thinking about the ramifications of what they are writing. - Which you clearly have. I think if a person is going to write about controversial issues you need to consider these things - just as a writer would consider which word to use.

(And there are a lot of people on LJ who don't do that either. You aren't one of them)

But I figured out why this issue is worrying me so. A while ago a girl we knows boyfriend got let out of goal. We hadn't seen her in a while although we used to be friends. Turned out he got locked up for 'fiddling with a kid'. This girl was determined to stand by her man. He was innocent. It was a trumped up charge - they were out for revenge.

Now my brother in law once got done for driving an unregistered vehicle, drunk, while unlicensed, resisting arrest and assaulting a cop. He got let off of everything. So knowing that it's near impossible to get locked up - we didn't believe that this guy was innocent. They must have had something good on him.
;
Sure enough 2 weeks after he got out he set up a stand with her at a market held; at a residential deaf and blind school. His Idea.

We dropped all contact with her after that. My husband works in a school and I volunteer with a youth group so this was a person we not only didn't want to associate with - but couldn't risk associating with.

I guess that her refusal to deal with what was fairly obviously going on has just made me a bit jumpy about the issue.

I'm rather like Mrs Lovejoy in the Simpsons shouting "Won't Somebody think of the Children"
Or possibly like Moe that one time.