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And for fandom's next act...
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heatherly's post supports responsible and/or thoughtful writing about concepts such as rape, incest, and pedophilia.xanphibian's post posits that fandom behaves responsibly in regards to that kind of fic through labeling and warnings, and that the fic behind such warnings is important to us as fans and women.xanphibian covered most of my opinions on this, but I have two additional points. The first point I want to make as someone who has never suffered any form of abuse, sexual or otherwise, who was lucky enough to never ever be touched in a wrong or uncomfortable way, who had a great childhood. And still has gangbang rape fantasies.xanphibian made the point that fiction about rape can help survivors deal with what they had suffered. And that these stories can sometimes be extremely realistic. So far (in this particular debate) I have seen those who would have us "write responsibly" acknowledge this point. I have not seen them say every fic that has to do with rape has to deal with rape realistically. I have seen them acknowledge that this therapeutic fic is not irresponsible.But then they go and make a distinction between this "therapeutic" fic and fic written for kink, just to get off.
I don't get the difference.
The distinction they make is that the first type of fic may be unrealistic, but it is written for a serious and important reason (therapy), by people who are serious about the topic and understand the terrible reality of it. The second type of fic is written because it is hot. These people are not serious about the topics and don't care about them, and have no understanding of these issues IRL.
I wrote an incest fic once. My primary motivation to write it was because it was hot. The boys were pretty; I wanted to smoosh them; I have a kink for fictional incest. I may've had some concepts in there about the characters and I may've been making a pretty literary painting, but I wrote it to get off. And that? Was therapeutic for me. Me getting off is a Serious And Important reason to write this stuff. Because it shames me that I have these kinks--but not when I get to explore them in a fictional setting that can't hurt anyone. Not when other women read them and get off as well, not when other women can freely admit to having and freely explore their own fantasies. Because I don't know what I'd be doing right now if I didn't have this place I felt was safe to explore my fantasies. Possibly I would be seeking out situations that are unsafe because I wouldn't have this outlet of exploration. Knowing me, more probably, I would not. I would keep it to myself, and repress, and feel sick and ugly and bad for feeling the ways I do, and because I do know me I know it would spiral in on itself and make things like my anxiety and depression so much worse than they already are.
I know that my anxiety and depression are nothing next to the trauma others have suffered. I also know that me getting off from fiction, while extremely important, is a selfish concern compared to survivors using fiction to work through their pain, fear, distrust, everything.
But because I write this stuff to get off, because I'm writing straight to the kink, because the boys are pretty or Wincest is wrong but too hot to resist, because that is the only reason I am writing this--does that automatically mean I can't also be someone serious about the issue, who understands the terrible reality of it? Does it automatically mean I can have no emotional investment in these issues? Does it automatically mean I must not be considering all the implications and ramifications of what I write and how it relates to the general public, from everyone to children to survivors to middle aged women to the vast majority who could care less? If I write my kinks to get off, does that automatically make me ignorant, cavalier, irresponsible, and completely divorced from anything serious relating to this concept in real life?
I think most of us understand that rape is terrible and horrible and very very real. Even the average Joe understands that, even if he has never experienced it for himself. If we write Wincest for the sole reason that it is hot, that doesn't mean we don't understand that it would be wrong irl, that if they were real and really brothers it would be unhealthy and emotionally damaging. What it means is we find it hot, completely separate from RL consequences.
POINT TWO. If people weren't cutting, weren't warning, if people were posting in kids' forums or at the local YMCA, it would be obvious to me that the people calling for responsibility here meant we need cuts and warnings and labels and stricter posting rules. As it is, I don't know what they're asking for. If it is showing real life consequences within our fiction, that is addressed above and quite well in
xanphibian's post. If it is just that we be serious about said issues, care about them, and have an understanding of them in reality--what the hell has that got to do with my fanfic (beyond cutting, warning, labeling, posting in appropriate places)?The distinction being made--between authors who are aware of real life consequences and those who are not, between those who write for serious reasons and those who write for kink--the distinction implies that it matters who or what the author is, that it matters why they write what they do. That makes no sense to me. It's not a reflection on the work if Lewis Carroll crushed on Alice Liddel or Byron had a suspicious relationship with his sister. More importantly, the work is not a reflection of the author. Nabokov was not a pedophile and Thomas Harris is probably not a cannibal. A story can tell everything there is to know about a real man, and also nothing at all. You cannot learn anything true about anyone's real life from a work that is purely fiction. I am not saying fiction has nothing to do with reality, but that no valid judgments can be drawn from it.
I have not seen anyone (in this particular debate) say you should be a rape victim to write fic about rape, or that you need to confess you are a rape victim on a fic about that subject matter. What I have seen, though, is people saying you need to understand the reality of rape, that it's not like what you're writing, that you need to care about it, and consider its victims and perpetrators and all the people in between. I think you need to understand the reality of rape, etc, in order to be a constructive member of human society, but I don't think you need it to write fic. As soon as anyone says, you need to be this to write that, there's an implication your personal reality is the only thing on which the fic can be built. Which in turn implies that what you write is who you are in reality.
It is not. We do not get off on rape, incest, or pedophilia. We are just as sickened and disgusted by the reality of these crimes as the next person, and more so than some.
We get off on fantasies of and fiction about rape, incest, and pedophilia, and it's entirely different. We make it entirely different, and that is why our own bodies and fantasies and minds don't constantly sicken and disgust us.
I think it's important that everyone learn about, educate themselves, trouble themselves to understand the horrors of rape, incest, pedophilia, abuse, so much more. I think it's important that we care about them, care about them intensely.
I think it's important that we ask each other to be responsible. Beg each other. Those of you who are in the trenches, inform us of the trauma and suffering of victims, leave us links to charities and shelters and places we can volunteer. Ask us to make our real lives better. I admit, sometimes I change the channel when it's about starving children, because I don't have any money to give and too often I am lazy and selfish of my time. And even though it's my right to say no, my right to choose--ask, because sometimes I choose yes, as so many do. Ask us to be responsible. Please.
Just sure as fuck don't bring my fiction into it, because I don't see how that relates. At all.
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A world of yes. Honestly, it seems to me like this whole debate is not about responsibility to society or the children or anyone else. It's about shame. Other people in fandom don't share our kinks, and they're ashamed of us. They don't want the outside world pointing at them and saying, "You people in fandom are all a bunch of freaks. You should all be banned!" So they go around telling us to "write responsibly" so that the world at large won't come down on all of us and ban fandom from the face of the earth. It's the online version of, "But what will the neighbors think?!?"
Thanks, but I get enough of that from my mother. If the outside world decided to ban me from the internets for writing Angel/Connor, I'd start writing with pen and paper and share my stories by phone, fax or email with you and Kita and anyone else who signed up to read them. I don't see why I should have to keep my stories locked up in my head just because someone else finds them shameful.
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Yes, absolutely! Thank you for pointing this out. I believe you've hit the nail square on the head.
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I don't think that shame is always it. At least, not in the way you mean. I really try to practice "Don't like it, don't read it." But there are some stories out there that I find just...well, revolting. And it makes me really uncomfortable and somewhat scared that there are people who find those stories hot and fun. The most uncomfortable and scary part is the fear that maybe I find those things so disturbing because on some level, I'm attracted to them. And I don't want to be.
But I feel that this is more my issue than the writers' issue. I know that there are people who've read what I write, and had a similar reaction to that. I've gotten feedback from people who feel that I'm an irresponsible writer for putting too rosy a face on a rather disturbing relationship, and all I can say in reply is that yes, I'm aware that by some measures the relationship is disturbing, and I'm not trying to hide that, and I don't think your reaction is wrong, though obviously it's not exactly the one I'm aiming for.
And yet I usually consider myself a fairly responsible writer in terms of realistic consequences for the characters' actions. Even if everyone swore to write 'responsibly' tomorrow, no one can agree on what responsible writing is.
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And yes, I can understand that some people find it disturbing, to know that some of us enjoy incest fic. I found it disturbing, too, when I first read Flowers in the Attic and found that I enjoyed it. But you know what? I have no desire whatsoever to *act* on those urges. The idea of committing incest in real life makes me feel ill, and I would imagine that 99.9999% of people who read it feel the same way. I've long since come to terms with my own kinks, and I am not a threat to society. But I think people like Heatherly and others feel that I am a threat to fandom.
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And no, I don't think it's necessary to include a public service announcement with each fic - there's absolutely a place for pure fluffy porn, and ghod knows I've written my share. But I'm just saying, not everyone's got the same idea of what constitutes realistic consequences, and even if a story is trying to convey a Serious Message, not every reader is going to come away with the same Serious Message. Which is something I don't think the proponents of Responsible Writing are taking into account.
On the gripping hand, I can't help notice that a lot of the people who are speaking out in favor of irresponsible (so to speak) writing are the same people who were all up in arms over SexyMermaid's stuff, which is pretty much the epitome of id-driven pr0n. (Granted there were a lot of other issues involved there.) So, it's complicated.
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But SexyMermaid's fic often has no warnings for content like rape, which I have a problem with. What follows is hearsay: people have said that they talked to her about this and that she claimed the stories did not include rape. That, and what she (allegedly) said about rape in another context, makes me feel like she doesn't understand the concept of rape, its history, and how traumatic it can be. I have a problem with some of her views in life, from what I can tell.
I admit: believing she holds those views makes her stories even more disturbing to me. But while I feel like I should be able to say, "I disagree with your views", I don't feel like *anyone* has the right to say, "and you should write your stories differently." The fictional things she writes just don't have anything to *do* with the point at hand, even if they *are* disturbing. Except for the fact that she doesn't mark them properly.
I feel like heatherly and people coming at this issue from a POV similar to heatherly's are really talking to people like SexyMermaid. People who don't seem to understand what these concepts are irl. But instead they're addressing their comments to anyone who writes rape, incest, pedophilia, abuse, etc. And I dislike the implication there, that if I write fluffy incest I don't understand the horrors of reality.
I don't mean to rant at you, Barb, because I don't think this is really what you're talking about, and I agree with a lot of your points: that "responsibility" can't be agreed upon and that the reader has a responsibility of their own. And I did feel, during the SM kerfluffle, that people were merging her fiction and her "RL" comments into a single thing that they were, as you say, up in arms against, and that disturbed me, because I want SM or anyone to be able to write anything they damn well please. So, again, I agree with your point: it's complicated and there are a lot of distinctions being made. HEE. So what I'm saying is I'm sorry I'm ranting when pretty much I agree with everything you've said.
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Hence week-long divertisments on
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I don't think a reader can EVER make a completely reliable assumption about an author's thoughts and beliefs, unless the author is writing non-fiction.
But yeah, I don't think there's an answer. I think people come at this issue from loads of different directions, carrying their own baggage in entrenched in their own viewpoints. I guess that's the way everyone comes at every issue. Hence metafandom...and life in general :o)
Thanks.
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That was a bit scary. Sure it was fiction but to say the situation in the fic wasn't pedophelia cause the kid liked it?
For my money responsible writing means you have some idea about what you are writing about. If you choose not to use that in story that's fine, you are still writing from an informed position.
I think by and large the process of having this debate is healthy and is part of that.
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But I think there's a huge distinction between someone who's a bad writer, and a good writer who's not dealing with the implications of what they write. And further distinctions between someone who's aware of the implications but choosing not to deal with them, or to deal with them in a metaphorical or fantastic way, and someone who's refusing to admit that there are any implications.
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(I'm going to start using *mindful* writer as it doesn't carry the implication of meeting other's expectations)
It's not about not writing things that may be controversial, not writing rape fic in an erotic way or making sure every fic has a message. But being aware of the issues and consequences involved and taking responsibility for that.
It's easy enough to say "well of course no one really thinks that way about rape" etc, but I think that the fall out from the rape in Buffy; where girls were actually changing their real life views about what was and wasn't rape purely on the basis of "Spike is hot" is proof enough that not everyone thinks about it critically or possibly - at all.
People write for all kinds of reasons, I've seen some that have very clearly been an attempt to write something 'popular' to become better known, impress a BNF or similar. I'd question whether those were mindful authors since they didn't seem to be thinking about what they were writing - but what they wanted to get out of it.
Largely it seems that the writers participating in the debate are all intelligent, thoughtful people that are writing, in my definition, mindfully. Hopefully writers that fall on the other side will read the debates and consider these issues, clarify their thinking by participating - or if they don't know much about them go and find out.
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No, not everyone reads or watches critically. But is it the responsibility of a writer of fiction to educate their readers in critical thinking? Or is that the responsibility of parents and teachers? Ought all writers be required to restrict their content because some readers lack critical thinking skills? That's the real question.
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I'm not talking about restricting content. I'm also not talking about educating readers.
I don't think content needs to be restricted, I just think if we come across someone who doesn't seem to be writing mindfully we should call them on it. Prompt them to start thinking.
If we are a community I don't see what the problem is in taking some action for that community; esp. if it's as easy as just asking a question.
If we are all members of a community surely it's all our jobs to be involved in it.
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The more I read of this the more I start to agree that we shouldn't go around labelling stories as "unacceptable" since it's all too subjective. But given that it's ok to criticise characterisation, grammar, racist tropes etc, I don't see why it's wrong to say to someone "It could just be me, but your story feels like it condones/trivialises -blah-". And the author has the right to explain themselves, or just ignore the complaint or whatever, but in some cases they may go "OMG you're right".
And if someone gets the impression that a lot of writers stories seem to trivialise -blah- (or have bad grammar, or whatever) then it's their right to go "Hey, Fandom, I think you're getting this wrong". And (as is happening right now) writers can go "No, no I'm not, you're missing the point", but sometimes people will go "Hey, you're right, I hadn't thought of it that way".
Now the impression I get from all of this is that people like myself who don't read any of this darker more controversial stuff really aren't in a position to judge it, since we Just Don't Get It. And people who do write it seem on the whole to be quite thoughtful and intelligent about it and aware of the issues involved (even if this is not apparent from their writing to an outsider) What I think would help assauge my disquiet is the sense that as well as this dialogue outside the community there is also dialogue inside community. That people do call each other on stories with disturbing subtexts (even when read in the context of the community) and that, as with the SGA race thing, if someone felt that people's attitudes were trending in a Bad Way then they'd speak up about it.
I'm not saying these things don't happen, I'm sure they do, but on the whole the people who write this stuff have been (understandably) too busy going "We are not all ignorant and thoughtless! Quite the reverse!" to talk about what happens to the small minority who are.
Also I'm not saying ignorant thoughtless people who write stories which promote Badness should be kicked out of fandom! But they should be given advice to help them become less ignorant and thoughtless.
Something that just struck me which some people seem to miss is that yes teenagers are reading this stuff, and maybe it's messing with their heads: but they are not immune from Issues or the need for catharsis etc. I know the violent stories I produced and consumed in highschool played an important role for me.
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The vast majority of Spuffy I've read makes me uncomfortable, but I don't think it's constructive to leave comments on a Spuffy fic that say, "Spuffy makes me uncomfortable." What I mean is the pairing is usually a deliberate choice made by the author. As is including gang rape or underage sex. We usually say, Don't like, don't read.
- Sometimes it is not a deliberate choice of the author to include issues like rape; that is, the author is too ignorant to make a deliberate choice. Idiots, as i_palimpset points out, who say, there isn't pedophilia in this! because the 11 year old involved "wanted it". But in this case, the comment should not be on the fic, that something with the fic is wrong. In this case, the PERSON is wrong. Fandom should not be saying, "Write this fic responsibly!" but rather, "be responsible people." We have the right to ask each other to do the latter as a community. I do NOT think we have the right to monitor people's fiction.
- Also, sometimes, you might be fine with rape being included, just not how it is being handled (if, for instance, you like to read about rape being realistically handled, but don't like what you see as trivialization). In that case, what we should be hearing is, "I think this would be a better story if you handled the rape in this fic more seriously." Just like any comment on grammar or characterization, the author can choose to ignore that advice or take it. However, instead, what we're hearing is, "I think you would be a better person if you handled the rape in this fic more seriously." I have a problem with this, because it is not a critique of my fic, it is a critique of my person, BASED on my fiction.
*the people who write this stuff have been ... too busy going "We are not all ignorant and thoughtless..." to talk about what happens to the small minority who are.*
This is a nice point. To some extent I agree. What palimpset mentioned, about someone not thinking something is pedophilia if the child enjoys it, is highly disturbing, and we should be talking about THOSE people. Who ARE in the minority. But the problem is, whenever this issue comes up, those concerned about this ignorant minority address their comments to all of us who "write this stuff." Perhaps most, or even all, of this ignorant minority are people who write this stuff, so a convenient way to address all of them is to address people who write this stuff.
But convenience does not always equal right, and convenience can be dangerous. It was convenient for 6A/LJ to delete journals according to interests, but not all comms that have an LJ interest in pedophilia are full of pedophiles. Just as not all who write pedophilia are members of this ignorant minority. So when someone lumps us all together, it's going to make us angry.
Furthermore, because the fiction we write has nothing to do with what we know or don't know about RL, we who do write this stuff are not any more responsible for this ignorant minority than those who don't write this stuff.
ignorant thoughtless people who write stories which promote Badness
I think you're missing the point here. Stories can't promote Badness.
I am not saying that stories, that words, don't have power. But as soon as we try to curb that power in some directions, we're going to have to start curbing it in all directions.
A story about incest, in which all characters think sex with kids is hunky dory, might give a kid the idea to have sex with a parent. Lolita might convince girls to encourage pedophiles. An Angel/Buffy story in which Buffy gets off on biting might convince someone slitting their wrists would be sexy.
Yes, we should label our fic and put warnings on it and make sure it is posted in a place where children and those who would be disturbed by such fic shouldn't have to read it. But when it comes to monitoring the actual content of fiction, I have a problem.
Yes, people ignorant of rape, or who don't think it's important, SHOULD be given advice. By us all, as members of a community together. But that advice should have nothing to do with what's in their fiction or how they write it.
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And the author has the right to explain themselves, or just ignore the complaint or whatever, but in some cases they may go "OMG you're right".
Exactly!
And like you said I feel so much better that the community is able to engage in a meaningful dialogue about it.
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And in terms of the fic, I don't think it should matter whether the person is in an informed position or not. Who the person is or what they think shouldn't make the fic acceptable to the community (by which I mean fandom) or unacceptable.
And you haven't said, and heatherly hasn't said, "let's make these fics unacceptable". Which is great; I'm thankful for that. But what I keep hearing is, "You should be informed about this stuff in order to write about it." Which does begin to have the implication of there being some kind of correlation between between who I am and what I get to write, which I see as censorship.
What I agree with you completely on, and wish more people were saying, is: "You should be informed about this stuff." PERIOD. Because once you add the qualifier, it becomes about something else, and the initial point is lost completely. And it's not something that should be lost, because I agree entirely.
I think by and large the process of having this debate is healthy and is part of that.
I think so too. This was post was in some ways part of my reply to the conversation we were having in the comments on another post. I didn't mean to stop that conversation with you, but then the situation got picked up all around LJ and I wanted to say more and think a lot about it.
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No that's cool.
It does worry me that the idea of responsibility has become synonymous with self censorship or censorship of others; I don't think they're necessarily the same thing which is why I've started referring to it as mindfulness.
I agree that in this case there were issues with the person rather than the fic. Yes I had issues with the way the fic dealt with the issue - it wasn't to my taste. I had contacted them because I felt the warning wasn't adequate. Not to tell them "Don't write this you prevert!" (Ironically the author told me if I didn't like don't read it and I was like - yeah that would be the point!)
I also don't think it's about making fic coming from an uninformed position 'unacceptable'. I do think people should write what they know - which to me means if you are writing about something you don't know - you should find out about it. None of us have never personally experienced a Vampire be we know about them. I think that having a background knowledge enriches the writing even when it's not used directly in the story.
I've read hurt/comfort stories which I've not found realistic and with one author felt safe and as though the author knew what was going on, and with another been unable to finish because the story just felt divorced from reality and . It's not a quantitative thing just a feeling from the overall text.
Like you said people should be aware of these issues just generally so there isn't necessarily a conflict between informed writing and just - being informed.
I also think that encouraging people to be informed about these issues is everyone's job as a member of a community; as a community of writers/readers/fans/women/human beings.
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No. Not for me at any rate. My problem is not with the responsibility part of the phrase "write responsibly", it's the "write" part. It's the part where I feel I'm being told what goes in my fiction or who I should be in order to write my fiction.
I had contacted them because I felt the warning wasn't adequate. Not to tell them "Don't write this you prevert!" (Ironically the author told me if I didn't like don't read it and I was like - yeah that would be the point!)
That person obviously has problems. What a complete idiot.
None of us have never personally experienced a Vampire be we know about them. I think that having a background knowledge enriches the writing even when it's not used directly in the story.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. We haven't experienced vampires, no one has, so we can't know about them. And we write about them anyway.
And I think you're kind of missing the point. We do not get off on rape. We get off on rape fantasies, which are a LOT different (which is what this debate is about; lots of rape fantasies lack ugliness or violence etc). To write about a rape, I might really go off and do some research. To write a rape fantasy, everyone has everything they need at their fingertips.
It's not a quantitative thing just a feeling from the overall text.
Yes. Which is why making judgments on someone based on what's in their fiction--or giving moral advice based on what's in a whole group of someone's fiction--strikes me as pointless and discriminatory.
I also think that encouraging people to be informed about these issues is everyone's job as a member of a community; as a community of writers/readers/fans/women/human beings.
With that, I agree wholeheartedly, and will shake your hand on.
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Ok now I think you are confusing me with someone else. I've never said anything against rape fantasy, I totally get rape fantasy - been there done that. I don't have a problem with it.
I do have a problem with rape being dealt with seriously but with obvious misconceptions. For 2 reasons. The author
a) hasn't done their research; which affects the fic because it's unrealistic. I don't like unresearched fic when it is a serious fic regardless of what it is about. and;
b) the author quite likely isn't aware of the misconception.
Please note that I say quite likely. I'm not judging them. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I might then contact them and say something along the lines of "I think this would be a better story if the rape had a more realistic consequence" or whatever it is. Which I do.
If the person told me to get bent, or said "Well I did it this way because . . ." then cool.
If there person said "Rape what rape?" or "You mean . . . isn't what everyone does?" Well then I might start drawing some conclusions and suggest that they research it more thoroughly.
If they said actually a lot of people do ". . ." then I might go and find out more about it myself.
At no point am I telling anyone how they may or may not write, or what they may or may not put in their fic. I don't see any harm in readers of fic opening a dialogue if there are obvious misconceptions.
(Please note that I say Obvious Misconceptions not fic written with a different purpose in mind.)
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I can't speak for
Fandom strongly discourages people from writing fic when they're unfamiliar with the canon, and I know I've done my share of head-desking in historical fandoms over PotC writers who think Barbados is a city in Jamaica (my God, is it too difficult to look at an atlas?), or Magnificent Seven writers who blithely declare that Nathan Jackson fought under General Grant at Gettysburg. And I'm betting that, as a social worker,
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Furthermore, while you can argue that even if you choose not to use the knowledge, having it enriches the story, in the case of kink I disagree. Most people reading and writing fics about rape in order to get off on them are writing about their fantasies of rape, rather than the reality of it.
Lastly, researching Gettysburg in order to set a fic in Gettysburg or write a fic set during the American Civil War is not a moral imperative, and no one treats it as such. I understand saying, "this would be more entertaining if you addressed reality". I do *not* understand saying, "this would be more moral if you addressed reality". Additional to that, I understand "this would be a better story this way" but not "you would be a better person if you wrote this way." We are better people for being better informed, but that doesn't have anything to do with what we write.
(I keep hearing in this debate is not the "these would be better stories" but rather the "you would be better people". However, I would add that if people WERE saying "these would be better stories," that strikes me as a pointless statement, and a little absurd. Seeing as the point of these fics is to write a kink, not reality, it's a little like saying all stories with character deaths in them are bad or would be better if the character survived. There's a group who obviously just doesn't like this type of fic; to make critical judgments on the technical aspect of the writing when they don't like the premise to begin with seems arbitrary and egotistical.)
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I'm not sure I entirely agree agree. I mean, there are those who don't want the people around them to do bad things because they don't want other people associating them with those bad things. And then there are those who don't want the people around them to do bad things because they think they're bad things.
Of course, they get to define bad. And sometimes they define bad by what the neighbors think. But I tend to think the point here, the source of this, is that they really do think people writing this stuff threatens society or children or the moral integrity of the community they consider themselves a part of.
And therein lies the confusion, because I do not believe you can make moral judgments about art (art being an umbrella term. Some of the porn I am defending here I would be hard-pressed to call art, but obviously I mean fiction). Individuals can make moral judgments on how they choose to view art--they can choose not to look at it, boycott it, keep it from their children, etc.
But as soon as you start casting moral judgments on art, I believe you confuse it with reality. And even though the people on heatherly's side of the debate do understand that fiction is not reality, they come at it from the POV that moral judgments can be made on it as judgments can be made on reality, which means they look at the immoral acts in reality and apply those morals to art.
Their opinions of my art can only be a statement of preference as far as I'm concerned, because my art is amoral. But to them it is something entirely different. It is wrong, or dangerous, or irresponsible.
I guess what I mean is: yeah, they don't share our kinks, they're ashamed, and that's their problem. But they don't see it that way.