SPOILERS FOR HARRY POTTER

[lettered]

QUESTIONS:

Does someone want to explain the whole, Voldemort has Harry's blood thing? Got the part about Harry being a Horcrux, and needing to sacrifice himself to live, and all the stuff about the wands, but didn't get the thing about part of Lily's sacrifice being transferred to Voldemort?

Did anyone spend a long time thinking the Malfoys were all dead?

Did anyone else find the epilogue kind of chilling?

Did anyone find the part where the trio were on the run, camping out in different spots, quite slow and a bit drag-y? Especially while Ron was off being a prat?

Who had the Lupins slated for death the moment their baby was born healthy?

How many times did you cry, and at what parts?

How many times did you laugh, or, uh. Possibly cheer or whoop? At what parts?

How long did it take you to read?

Phineas says, "Remember the part the Slytherins played!" What part did they play? We see Slugghorn running about helping--is there a suggestion, or did I just miss it, that the Syltherins who left when McGonagall said to prepare to fight, helped muster the forces of thestrals and families and whatnot?


*

OVERALL:

I loved this book. A lot.

To say the least, there was a lot of hype leading up to it. To me almost all of that seems justified now. Not the people being dickheads parts of the hype, but the general excitement.

As for myself, I had my own set of expectations. I've always liked HP. I've always liked it quite a bit, actually. And there were certain aspects I could get fannish about, but not the 'verse as a whole. I just thought the books were good, and fun, and entertaining, but certain things sat wrong with me and I couldn't ever see myself really dying of love for any of it. That changed about eight months ago. Something clicked in my head, and since then I've been pretty much mad for them. Some of you have seen me drooling over Harry/Draco but it wasn't just that; it was all of it.

The thing that clicked was I just started seeing the books in a different light. I started, uh, interrogating them from a different perspective. And I started thinking about what it all meant, what it would mean for book 7, where JKR would go with all this. And I formed a lot of ideas and theories about not just what was going to happen but what had to happen (particularly thematically). If they didn't happen, the could still be fun nice adventure books, but pretty much the way I had started to view the books would collapse. I could still hold that view, of course, but I'd have to discount book 7. It would've been a disappointment.

I had meant to write these ideas down, several large proofs about what I thought would happen and why. I wish I had now just for the pleasure of looking at them and saying, "OMG I was so smart! So right!" But that's just me liking to gloat--not over anyone--to just gloat for the sake of gloating. But mostly, I'm just happy the things I needed to happen for this world to work for me not only happened but happened and then some. Most of the points I wanted to be made were very explicit. Stuff like:

-Snape loving Lily. Snape turning from Voldemort because Voldemort was hunting Lily. Snape being Dumbledore's because of Lily. Dumbledore trusting Snape because he knew the power of Snape's love. Snape's love being a weapon against Voldemort.
-Harry having to sacrifice himself. Harry having to willingly die in order to live. Harry's sacrifice mirroring Lily's sacrifice, Harry's sacrifice defeating Voldemort, Harry living.
-Races uniting at the end, goblins and house elves being instrumental to getting Horcruxes/fighting Voldemort.

The things that I thought would really be important that weren't there was I thought Harry would have to have some big moment of forgiving and even loving the human part of Voldemort, the part that was still Tom Riddle, in order to defeat him. But the thing about Harry having to sacrifice himself in order to live took care of a lot of the themes I wanted to be covered on that front. I also thought we'd see a little more in House cooperation (namely the admission Slytherin isn't all bad, in more than just a cursory way).

(The latter would be why I find the epilogue chilling. HP is about 4 generations: Dumbledore's, Riddle's, James Potter's, and Harry Potters, and each of those generations has parallels and repetitions that circle, and circle, and circle. What it looked like to me on Platform 9 3/4 was just more history repeating: Ron telling his kid to give Draco's kid a tough time [omg. Draco's kid. *is momentarily manaical with glee!!!*], and there's still prejudice against Slytherin. There's a bit at the end which is maybe supposed to be nice, with Harry telling young Albus any House is alright, with that really amazing and to me completely unexpected tribute payed to Severus Snape. But it's told in whispers, so easily forgotten. Everything seems so much the same as it was in that scene on the train with James, Lily, Severus, and Sirius. As it must have been with Riddle, as it must have been with Albus. I can't figure out whether JKR meant to do that or not--I was so happy just before the epilogue and then the epilogue itself SENT CHILLS DOWN MY SPINE.

Oh, and I like how much happens at King's Cross, all that, too. I wrote a paper in undergrad about the symbolism of a train station in a Pynchon book. Anyway, that bit with Albus was in dreamscape!King's Cross, the Lily,Petunia fight at the station, the end with Harry and kidlets. Which just adds SO MUCH to Voldemort at the train station in movie 5. COOL.)

I have a lot more to say, but now I'm kinda splooging everywhere so I leave you with this.

ETA: I also thought there would be more about the inter-racial cooperation than there was. Some of the stuff about goblins still made me uncomfortable, like Harry wasn't really being fair.

Also, I fucking love this so hard I don't know what to do with myself now.

ETA2: Stoney linked to this; I link as well since it was exactly what popped into my head when I read that epilogue. LMAO.

Comments

[margotlefaye.livejournal.com]

I liked the book when I read it. Which was only hours ago. But, over the course of those hours, I'm more and more annoyed with it.

I think JKR took the easy route of killing off a lot of less significant characters, emotionally manipulating the audience, rather than taking the risk of killing off a main or important character in a meaningful way. As things stand, Lupin and Tonks are just part of a body count. We don't actually see their deaths. Which makes it almost meaningless. Frankly, I expected Ron to die, saving Harry or Hermione. I'm not sorry he survived, but that one death would have had far more power than all the deaths that actually happened, combined.

And while I adored Snape's history, and flat-out loved that Harry actually named his son after him--Albus Severus Potter!--I hated the way Snape died. It seemed like an afterthought, passive.

Honestly, I thought there was so much character evolution for both Snape and Draco in HBP, and I wanted that paid off, and for Draco, it wasn't, while for Snape the payoff was all posthumous. I would have been happier if Snape had been a bigger part of the book, and the Malfoys (all of whom clearly realized they'd chosen the wrong side in the very first chapter) had been a lot more active on the side of good. Now, that would have been a tale of redemption worth reading.

The more I think about it, the more disappointed I am in the book. But, that's just me.

[seraphcelene]

Honestly, I thought there was so much character evolution for both Snape and Draco in HBP, and I wanted that paid off, and for Draco, it wasn't, while for Snape the payoff was all posthumous.

I can so totally see your point, especially with Draco. Draco was a bit schizophrenic, vacillitating between I am a bad ass and will bring Harry Potter in alive to looking like a kid lost in a very violent and unexpected nightmare. I alternately loathed and pitied him. In the end, I think that he was supposed to act as the sign of Harry's greater morality. He was the thing that Harry forgave in place of Voldemort. It shows how he is like his mother, forgiving and accepting. Although, we do still get to see how much Harry is like his father, hot headed and self absorbed.

Lupin and Tonks are just part of a body count. We don't actually see their deaths. Which makes it almost meaningless.

Absolutely true! I felt sad that they died, but I was more affected by Fred's death and Colin Creevy. Colin because of what I remembered of him from the earlier books.

I hated the way Snape died. It seemed like an afterthought, passive.

Unfortunately, I think that may have been the point. That was the way that Voldemort treated things that he considered beneath his notice and I think that the whole "who owns the wand" thing was, to him, a minor miss step and he corrected it. It reminded me a great deal of Cedric's death. Totally unexpected and unneccessary. "Kill the spare."

But, I'm waiting too for the shine to wear off and for me to start discovering things I don't like. Overall, I am extremely happy with the book. Kind of on a cloud.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I am a bad ass and will bring Harry Potter in alive

I don't think so. His whole bring Harry in alive thing was only because he was a kid lost in a violent and unexpected nightmare. Bringing in Harry was something he thought he could do, because he wouldn't have to kill anyone or anything like that; turning in people is something Draco's good at. And Draco is still young enough to think that maybe if Voldie got HP the Malfoys would be alright, and Voldie would let them go or stop hurting them. Him trying to bring in Harry was the most naive, immature, bewildered childish thing he could have tried at that point, imo.

he was supposed to act as the sign of Harry's greater morality. He was the thing that Harry forgave in place of Voldemort.

Maybe. One of the things that used to bother me so much about HP was it seemed like Harry did have a "greater morality". A kind of, he knows what's right, and he always does the right thing.

But luckily this can be read as a flaw in Harry, even if JKR doesn't mean it that way. In the end, he still sees Malfoy as smaller than him. And the epilogue suggests to me he still sees Slytherin as lesser.

[seraphcelene]

I can see your point about Draco. He's back at school in an environment that he's comfortable with, he's got his henchmen and he's going to snag Harry Potter and save his family. But it doesn't quite fit in my head because Draco had the opportunity to do all of that. When Narcissa asked him to identify the trio at Malfoy Manor he could have and didn't. What changed between then and now. The Malfoy's position with Voldemort has been steadily declining and I don't get the impression that Draco isn't aware of the dangerous situation that he's put his family into. So, why wait to turn in the Trio when it could mean the reinstatement of his family honor and by extension their safety/security?

One of the things that used to bother me so much about HP was it seemed like Harry did have a "greater morality". A kind of, he knows what's right, and he always does the right thing.


Absolutely. Harry was never my favorite character for all of those reasons. Although, I think that this really was supposed to be a flaw as much as his strength, it was an annoying habit. I think that because Rowling made it a sort of flaw, he was easier for me to deal with. I always loved Ron and Hermione because they were there even though they didn't have to be.

Slytherin gets painted as the villian, "there wasn't a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin", and never really changes position. But here is Harry saving Malfoy and saying, okay, even though you are bad, you do not deserve to do and so I will save you.

Wit the exception of HBP I never really cared about Draco, so I haven't really thought of him all that much, so I'm sure that I'm missing loads. I'll be excited to read the entire series once I get the first three books in hardback. (I know ... I know... but I came late to the party.)

[tkp.livejournal.com]

What changed between then and now.

What changed is Draco's more panicked than ever. I think he didn't identify Harry at the Manor because he couldn't decide what he was more afraid of: saying it's not Potter and so letting Potter get away, or saying it is Potter and having Voldemort descend on them immediately. He just doesn't want to have to deal. By the time Hogwarts is falling, he realizes he MUST deal.

And now that I think about it, on the subject of dealing--Draco always talks big, but rarely acts. He taunts Harry all through school but always acts surprised whenever Harry hurts him. He tries to kill Dumbledore for a year but when it finally comes to it can't go through with it. I can see Draco going through all the trouble to catch Harry, and then when he has him not quite know what to do with him.

I love how Draco kept reminding them Harry needed to be alive. I think it was less because that's what Voldemort wanted and more because he didn't want Harry killed, whether because Draco's too wimpy to be responsible for murder or there's something in him too good for it.

But here is Harry saving Malfoy and saying, okay, even though you are bad, you do not deserve to do and so I will save you.

Yes, but it is Harry saying, "You're not as bad as all that" rather than "you are my equal". And, you know, I constantly think: but Draco isn't Harry's equal. He's little and weak and cowardly and a bully. But if you're reason for not letting someone die is they're not bad enough--well that just means anyone who IS bad enough deserves to die.

And possibly that's true in the world of HP--Voldemort needed to die. But that is not a just or healthy way to view the world.

Have I mentioned how much I love Draco? I want to clutch, clutch him to my bosom. And then get him to have lots of sex with Harry, even after this book.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Well, I loved this, so, I have "but but but!"s to say.

I'm not sure I feel like killing off a main character is really the "harder" route. As you say, Ron dying would've had the power of all the other deaths combined. I think that's true, but...to me that's just as easy. As in, the only way to create an impact is to kill someone we love the most, whereas I don't think that's true. There's this trend in literature these days where if something is sadder, harder to accept, more difficult to stomach, it's better, and I just--don't feel that way.

I always thought it wouldn't really make sense for any one of the trio to die. To me these books need to end happy and it can't if any one of those three are dead. I know what you mean about not even getting to see Lupin or Tonks die, but we saw several death scenes already, and I thought Tonks and Lupin's almost-just-mentioned-in-passing demise was meant to show how...not everyone gets a tragic death scene. In war people just die and there's a body count at the end, where there are so many that they're just one among many, no matter how much you know and love them.

I rather thought Snape would die as a hero, too, but as seraphcelene says below I think that's part of the point. Not just because Voldemort killed people as afterthoughts, but also because it seems fitting to me that he never got a chance. At anything, really. His life was a lie. I would've liked to have seen Harry interact with him once he knew the truth, though. That might make me a Snape/Harry shipper despite all my better judgment.

I can't decide what to think about Draco. I did feel like a promise was made in HBP, but maybe breaking that promise proves a point. Some people change--Snape changed, Pettigrew had a moment of mercy--but some people never will. And the Malfoys don't. They only care for each other and are only concerned for each other. And in the long run, their selfishness isn't Evil. Draco's small and petty but he's pretty unwilling to actually hurt anyone.

Then again, the reason I really, really love Draco is...he comes off as small, but really all people are the same size. Um. I have more Thoughts about this; I need to stew.

Thanks for sharing your opinions--I don't mean to be all no you're wrong!, I just wanted to share my thoughts.

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

Firstly, I loved this book. Took me a total of nine hours to read it; I was interrupted by the overwhelming need for sleep.
I think the point about not all deaths having the big tragic death scene is the point: sometimes heroes die alone, and unrecognized. The way of war is that people die in many ways..all sad and tragic, but often unnoticed by others.
I was really worried that she was actually going to kill Harry; I would have been quite devastated by that, and I think it would have been equally hard if Hermione or Ron had died..it would have felt to me like a betrayal of the spirit of the books somehow.
I'm glad they got the happy ending; the epilogue to me shows that they defeated the enemy, but they're not perfect, and there will still be problems in the world caused by pettiness and misunderstanding. The fight will go on.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I think the point about not all deaths having the big tragic death scene is the point:

Me too.

t would have felt to me like a betrayal of the spirit of the books somehow.

Me too.

they defeated the enemy, but they're not perfect, and there will still be problems in the world caused by pettiness and misunderstanding. The fight will go on.

Yeah, exactly! That's what I got from it.

I just agree with you all over! :o)