lettered | Oh, so, I meant that, about good bye.

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Oh, so, I meant that, about good bye.

Thought about it a lot, and I'm leaving Livejournal.

That's all dramatic and stuff, but I probably won't be gone until the end of the year. If most people decide to leave, and there's a mass exodus before then, I may be gone earlier. But this journal, my fic journal, and my private backup journal will be gone for certain by January 1, 2008.

I have a lot of stuff to say about the whole LJ/6A debacle, but for some reason every time I start a post on it I just have to get up and walk away from it, give it some time, read lots and lots of Harry/Draco, spend time with my family, or eat ice cream. Can't decide whether I'm too angry about it, depressed perhaps, lazy maybe, or possibly I'm an ostrich? Anyway, during the strikeout in May I felt very energized, but maybe that was because I thought that it was possible that LJ had made a mistake, and after hearing customer complaints, would fix it. In other words, I knew I was going to give Livejournal another chance. Well, I did, but I am still displeased as a customer. So, I take my business elsewhere.

I don't know where. One of the reasons I'm staying on LJ for another few months is that I want to see how many other people leave and where they go. Even if a lot of you leave (which I sekritly hope you will), it will not be all at once, and LJ will still be the place to be in the thick of fandom things for a while. If there is a mass movement, decision making, support/rallying/reasearch/etc to be done, I want to be involved. And if people are going to continue to discuss the issues connected to why I'm leaving, I want to be a part of those discussions. Because I do have a lot to say, and I want to say it to my flist, people who I'm interested in having around wherever I end up.

I'm going to back up the journals I have here and copy them to Insane Journal for now. I'm going to be cross-posting to Insane Journal (where I am tkp) and possibly Journal Fen over the next several months. I hope to gradually phase out: to just post links to fic here, instead of actual fics here, etc. Then I will be gone. I know I can make myself do that, but I know I can't make myself never visit LJ again. If you do decide to stay and not post elsewhere, I may still visit from time to time, but I will not have an account here ever again. I don't want to lose touch with any of you. I mean, well, except you; you're always talking about your grandmother's corns.

So, um, this isn't quite yet goodbye, and won't be for a while. Mostly I'm just posting this because once I say I'll do something, I'll do it. And now I've said it.

Okay, now that announcements are over: what're your thoughts? Leavin' on a jet plane? Why? Staying, why? Cat macros? Why not? Where are you going, if you go, where're you lookin' at, what are your hopes and dreams for fandom future? What did you think of the last ep of Mad Men? Is Jason Isaacs the man, or what? How 'bout that burr86, Barak, and Brad? Does the news comm make you laugh, cry, headdesk, or wha...? Did anyone even like the first two Bourne movies? What's your favorite pizza delivery service? Do you think Livejournal would disallow canon!Buffy/Angel fanart? How come I can't spell misogyny? What's the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist? And the number one question all of us are asking: how come Buffy never wore the go-go boots again?

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Joy. *clings*

Glad to hear you'll be around for awhile. I plan to crosspost to IJ and JF too for the time being. I posted earlier saying I'm not leaving, but I haven't totally made up my mind yet. I'll land where fandom does, and I may phase out too. It depends on where everybody ends up and if I need to juggle multiple flists and just . . . this whole thing makes me sad and exhausted. I understand having to get up and walk away from it. I kind of go back and forth between not being able to look at it and not being able to walk away. I'm pissed at the way lj has treated us and I'm never going to give them money ever again. Like I was telling Meg earlier, I want us to leave, but I want us all to leave together and end up in the same place and . . . that seems very improbable. And it makes me sad.

I think I'm with you on the "phasing out" thing, seeing where it (fandom itself) leads.

I didn't see the last ep of MM yet, as I was at the spa. It's Tivo'd and waiting for me and Maze tomorrow. This LJ debacle is hard to follow from the end backwards. Links of pertinent info? I like the actor who plays Bourne, and the fact that each movie he has less lines and more biceps. I have no good pizza, this is North Cal. LJ will allow B/A fanart if Buffy has body hair. I can't spell misogyny either. It never looks right. A Psychiatrist is an MD and as such can prescribe meds, a Psychologist is a PhD and can't. Buffy lent the boots to Spike, while he was going through his gender searching period. He never returned them. Even right now, they're under Angel's bed at the Hyperion. He doesn't wear them anymore though, because he thinks they make his ankles look fat.

Well, if I choose another journal as my "main" journal it is totally NOT going to be GreatestJournal. Nor will it be JournalFen. (Yes I have a paid JF account but ... nah.)

I'd pick InsaneJournal as my main journal, if I "move" in that sense.

However, I am really enjoying Semagic as a cross-posting tool and I wouldn't leave LJ altogether, because it seems like half my f'list isn't even fannish and won't be leaving.

And since IJ and GJ (I think JF as well) allow responding to comments via email, it won't be that difficult to keep up with folks. Yes, checking different journal friendslists may be a little awkward but even that not so much with the Firefox tabs system.

I *am* however seriously leaning towards not renewing my paid account when it expires. I may revert to Basic w/o ads. After all, I can put 500 iconses on my IJ and they won't vanish or become unusable like they would at GJ. And that's good enough for keeping up with everyone here. And I balk at the idea of giving LJ more of my money. Bah.

Mere rumor so far: 6A may be looking for a new buyer, and this new buyer, who knows, may be more fandom friendly?

Papa John's is my fave pizza delivery service because they make the best pizzas and they deliver reliably within a half hour.

LJ would only disallow canon!Buffy/Angel fanart if Mutant Enemy bitched about it, I'm thinkin'.

You can spell misogyny. You just did, there.

Psychiatrists and psychologists have different degrees and only one of them is allowed to dispense medicines in-office. Um, which is which? I should be going to bed so I won't be googling this up right now ...

Awww, Buffy in go-go boots. ::hearts::

Well, they really looked kinda high-school cheerleaderish and just not right for the more mature adult Buffy, wouldn't you say?

Besides, she probably wore them for Riley. "There might be outfits."

Heh heh heh ...

Dude, you just totally broke my heart right now. Completely ripped it out of my chest.

You know how you always know that things are going to end, they have to because if there's a beginning there's got to be an ending ... this feels like an ending to me. Fandom making a mass exodus to who knows where, every scattering, heading for all available exits. Things will never be the same again. Whether they will be better or worse, who knows, but definitly never the same again. It kinda makes me wanna cry that 6A are such dumb ass wankers. Yeah, I said it 6A, I said it.

I was thinking that I'd cross post to all three journals using whatever availabe software, Semagic, I think. At least until fandom roosted in a new part of the internet, but it seems like there's so many places that people are going. I'll keep LJ just because there are a few non-fannish people that I keep my eyes on. I never had a paid account so I'm sure 6A won't be missing me all that much.

I am worn out by the stupidity of people of late. What the fuck?! Is there something in the water?

I kind of go back and forth between not being able to look at it and not being able to walk away.

Yeah! That's exactly how I feel. You are so good at that.

I want us all to leave together and end up in the same place and . . . that seems very improbable.

I dunno. I was just reading a comment someone made somewhere about fandom being all on usenet, and there was a mass exodus then, and it seemed like the end of the world, or at least the end of fandom, then.

I think that things are gonna be shaky for a while, but I feel actually pretty positive about fandom finding a place.

I'm with you on the gradual moving away from LJ. At this point, I'm inclined to establish an IJ, but since my LJ is a free account, I'm not closing it immediately. I rarely post in my own LJ due to time constraints, and only opened the account to begin with in order to join the community at writer-con. I've since used it to follow what's going on with my flist. Many of whom are moving to IJ, all of whom, wherever they are moving, are completely disgusted with the latest nonsense going on here.

But, what's happening here in LJ land is simply a part of a bigger, very disturbing, picture of things going on in our society as a whole. We've set up arbitrary lines to substitute for reasoning. And, anything that falls on this side of the line is evil/bad/disgusting/perversion, even if it's Romeo and Juliet (she was 13, after all) because we aren't making any distinctions, just lumping it all in. But if it's on that side of the line, we really don't care about it, even if it is degrading to women, or gays, or persons of color or...well, anyone, really, because it's met the artificial test of being on the "correct" side of the line.

This sort of blind adherence to an arbitrary rule without bothering to distinguish what is and what is not predatory or anti-social, or truly dangerous behavior---well, blind adherence to arbitrary rules never ends well.

Just remember to add me to the Insane Journal equivalent of your flist when we both get there.

I think that things are gonna be shaky for a while, but I feel actually pretty positive about fandom finding a place.

I really hope you're right!

Pertinent info:

Short version: This article has a nice tidy summary.

Long version:

ponderosa121 and

elaboration get deleted for two separate pieces of HP fanart. See ponderosa's post about it here, and the art she got banned for here.

pornish_pixies gets this notice from the LJ team.

Apparently, LJ is under pressure again. For an explanation of what the pressures are I rec this post. It's by

synecochic, who you might remember became a little infamous during the May strikeout (she's an LJ employee who posted reassurances to fandom that the whole thing was just a rumor and nothing would happen), but the post is still interesting. It produces a little debate about what US laws on porn actually are. LJ later clarifies with this statement.

That's pretty much the last we've heard from LJ on the subject, except for two individual employees. One is

burr86, who, while LJ was busy not answering anyone's questions, took the time to mock fandom (article here), and the other is Brad, the Founder of Livejournal. This article is about the rumor he's quitting LJ/SA and why; he later confirmed he is indeed quitting, though there's no "official" word on why.

Fandom, obviously, has been all astir. But much quieter than last time, and much more divided, both of which I find disturbing. There's a great list of inner-fandom conflicts summarized here.

The main two issues I see are:
1) Yeah, but that was kiddie porn, not us. I'm guessing you talked to Fod about that. If not, I can link you to her post and also the thread which resulted in me wanting to build her a shrine.
2) LJ's just doin' business. Along the lines of synecdochic's post, but used to argue people shouldn't be mad at LJ. This post struck me as particularly along those lines. While I have always respected the poster I feel like she missed the point entirely, and was too tired to comment. Besides, then liz_marcs and rahirah posted exactly what I would have responded, stating that yes indeed LJ is a business and is treating customers badly.

***

-so if Buffy shaves, all bets are off?
-thanks for the clarification on psychiatry. I saw a psychologist the other day. She said I need a psychiatrist, because I need drugs. Right away, apparently.
-SPIKE'S GENDER SEARCHING PERIOD. Omg. I love Spike for that. LOVE him, Kita.

No way on GF for me too. I dislike a few things about JF as well, though am now the proud owner of a shiny account.

I think that as someone who has RL people not interested in fandom on your list, you have a lot more reason to stay than I. If I were you, I'd totally be keeping LJ to keep in touch with those people.

I balk at giving LJ anything! So, solidarity.

Haven't heard that rumor about 6A, interesting!

Haven't had Papa John's in ages! My favorite thing about them is they give you a bucket of grease. Oh god I'm hungry.

ust not right for the more mature adult Buffy,

Totally agree, though that makes me sad! I liked how crazy her clothes were.

Besides, she probably wore them for Riley. "There might be outfits."

HEE. Nothin' but the boots...

If Buffy shaves it's because Joss is misogynist. OOH! I spelled it right!

Yea, I've spent the past xxx hours reviewing this whole wank. It makes me feel icky for a lot of very personal reasons, but the bottom line? No actual children were harmed. No actual children were even, you know. THERE. Would I let Ponderosa babysit my kid? No. Do I want her art banned? No.

LJ has the right to delete her stuff. I have the right to leave LJ for a place with more consistent business practices, and practices more consistent with what I use blogging for, which is, and I am NOT ashamed to say it out loud- Porn.

I also just read an excellent post on the silencing of women's sexuality as it relates to this latest go round. So far LJ has deleted: breast feeding art, fandom art- all women's work. No art or fiction involving violence or mutilation has ever been deleted. No community built around hate speech (pro-Nazi, etc) has ever been deleted. No communities harmful to girls (pro-anorexia, etc.) has ever been deleted. That made me say hmm.

And the thing that makes me sad is the names of some of the folks on the "other side" of this debate. I'm fixing to lose freinds, same as I did over the race debate.

PS- Spike still wears those panties he stole off Buffy in S4. Freak.

I do understand the icky. And I personally don't like 1. chan in any form, 2. most visual porn. But my personal preferences don't have much to do with this.

Would I let Ponderosa babysit my kid? No. Do I want her art banned? No.

You said something like this once before, and I thought it made a lot of sense. You can judge that art however you like. It can make you suspicious, uncomfortable, angry, disgusted. But you can't go inflicting your judgment on that person, based on what they drew.

I have the right to leave LJ for a place with more consistent business practices, and practices more consistent with what I use blogging for,

My take on the matter as well.

the names of some of the folks on the "other side" of this debate.

I've been saddened by this too.

Like I said over email...please don't be sad. Or cry, or anything!

I know how you feel, but fandom is really resilient. I have a feeling we'll pick up the pieces eventually, or else establish a new place for ourselves elsewhere, and hopefully it will be a place you'll want to be, too.

I totally understand keeping an LJ if you have RL friends on it; several people have mentioned that. Well, I understand keeping an LJ, period; some people just feel differently about this issue. But I feel so strongly, and I hope enough other people do too, that the relocation elsewhere will be significant enough to start again.

Yeah, LJ and fandom have just been fucking fucked up, not to mention our society, the world, and probably Martians.

"But you can't go inflicting your judgment on that person, based on what they drew."

Is that what I said? It wasn't what I meant- well, not exactly. Uhm. Lemme try to be more clear. Because I *do* make judgements around her based on her art- IE, if *all* I knew of her was her art, I wouldn't let her babysit my child. I think that's a reasonable judgement to make, as a parent. But what I *wouldn't* do is try to run her out of town with a pitchfork. That's taking too big of a leap based on not enough information.

I also stand by my assertion that it's hella different when women participate in creating/sharing this kind of art/fiction than when men do. Which is another debate that gets me into sad waters.

Cool. I've got on IJ account, and will be sure to add you.

Everything you say is true. I tend to weigh in on the say of moral relativism, even if I would like to be an absolutist. I believe it's impossible to say, "this is always right, and this will always be wrong". But that's what's been done for centuries. That's what law is all about. That's what's easiest. So of course a big corporation like 6A is going to go that route, of making things very cut and dry, instead of even beginning to try to understand.

also. (((((((lotsa hugs))))))))

You said the bit about not letting that person baby-sit, but still allowing their art, before.

I knew what you meant, but I worded it badly. I meant, you can judge that person however you want based on her art. You just can't inflict your judgment on her based on her art. Who's fit to babysit your kids is your business, and you can judge that based on anything you like. Who's fit to live in your town is, OTOH, not yours to judge. If you have sufficient evidence that she's a pedophile you can go to the police and try to get her arrested, but you probably still won't get to use that pitchfork.

I also stand by my assertion that it's hella different when women participate in creating/sharing this kind of art/fiction than when men do.

To me it is all about context. Printing out Ponderosa's work and posting it at a daycare? WRONG. In a smut comm in online fandom? Okay.

That is, art doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are no absolutes about it; it is amoral. Thus, it *does* matter who is creating it, why they are sharing it, who they're sharing it with. And gender, as far as this particular case is concerned, is a very important actor, because women have so few venues for exploring their sexuality in this way.

Oh. Spike. No.

Cross dressing still turns me off unless it's Draco Malfoy.

Oh, okay I did make sense. Hoorah. I am so mellow (still! even wading into this wank!!) that I can't be sure. Thank you for clarifying my uhm. Clarification.

And YES YES YES. Your last paragraph is just. Yes. I want to french kiss it. And touch it inappropriately. Under the desk at work.

So we had this very cute driver/valet guy at the hotel and he made Maze blush. This made my weekend COMPLETE.

Yes, much sense, unlike me.

I am glad you are so mellow! Even through the wank. I was so upset about it, but now that I know I'm leaving, I feel better.

My last paragraph is what I keep wanting to do a Big Damn Post about but can never seem to get the words out.

Ha! About the driver/valet guy. That is awesome.

Dude, *I've* only made him blush ONCE. And I've known him half our lives. It was insanely cute.

I'd love to see your Big Damn Post. Seriously.

I'll be friending you over on IJ, for to keep up with the fic writing.

I'm sticking around here only long enough to finish a couple of WIPs, and then its goodbye, so long suckas and all the rest.

LJ can cross me off it's patron list.

Huh? Okay, I get home and decide to read my flist after a month away and it sounds my my LJ world is slowly ending again. This is not good. I'm going to have to check out the links you provided in an earlier comment to find out what the fuck is going on, but I know if you're leaving it must really be serious. The thought of you leaving LJ makes me deeply sad. This whole debacle -- whatever it is this time -- just makes me feel deeply tired. I got an IJ account during ~~strikethrough~~ and now it sounds like I might have to start actually using it after all. I will definitely be friending you over there ::hugs and tries not to cling::

When this whole debacle started up again, I was very motivated about everyone leaving LJ, but the more I think about it, and the more I read people on my f-list saying "I'm staying," I'm beginning to doubt that it's the right thing for me. I hate to say it because it sounds like I lack faith in fandom, which isn't the case, but I'm just not convinced that we'll be able to recreate the same community and environment we've had here all along. If most people do end up moving definitively, I'll move too, but right now I'm not so sure. I've set up my IJ and GJ, but so far it feels pointless since everyone's still here as well anyway.

I've also really just wanted *everyone* to choose one place to go so I don't have to keep up with multiple friends pages, but if some people are *definitely* staying, and people like you are *definitely* leaving, I think I'm going to have to adjust to spreading myself across two (and hopefully only two) journaling sites. I don't want to lose any of you!

You're the first person on my flist to say for sure that they are leaving, but the rumblings are getting loud enough that yesterday I opened free accounts for myself on both IJ and GJ (anelith in both places). I haven't taken the step of copying my journal to those yet. I guess for me it isn't as important since I don't have fic that people might search for.

I stay for my friends, and if the last of my flist leaves, so do I. I can imagine a day when I visit LJ to occasionally browse for fic... Unfortunately my paid account needed renewal just a few days ago, and rather than deal with the ads I chose to give LJ money once again, since this is still the watering hole for fandom. It will be interesting to see whether that's the last time I do that.

If some of my flist moves to one journal, and the rest stays here, I guess I'll have to keep up with two flists. That will be a bit difficult. I really hope to avoid doing that. Somehow that seems hard. Maybe it's easier than I think it will be.

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Oh, so, I meant that, about good bye.

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