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Crossposts: http://lettered.livejournal.com/176654.html

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I hate everything. I'm upset by everything. I'm a terrible friend and an awful supervisor and a miserable everything. Everything is horrible and everything hurts. This'll be over in approximately twelve hours, guys. Hold onto your butts.*

Except writing. I still like that. And I like comments on my writing. I like the good ones, but I also like finding the bad ones. I've rarely if ever received negative comments directly to a fic I've written, and if I do usually that person says something nice, too. These aren't bad, but then there are the hidden bad ones. The hidden ones that possibly no one expects you to see because they don't know how you hunger and ache for the bad ones.

I should qualify that in my experience the hidden bad ones aren't really so bad either. Generally the bad ones are sort of nice! Because usually if someone bookmarks your fic, it's because they like it, no matter how blunt they're self-written description of your fic is. And I've had fics mentioned on anon memes, but usually if it gets mentioned and people are discussing it you at least know people are reading your fic and think it's worth talking about, which is flattering.

I've been thinking about crit lately and I never ask for it anymore. Back when I used to ask I was disappointed when I didn't get crit, and when I did get it, it was either a) stuff I knew already, or b) stuff I wasn't inclined to fix. For instance, (a), I know that the ending of The Boy Who Only Lived Twice is rushed, tells and doesn't show, leaves plot holes, and throws off the pacing of the whole story. Do not need other people to tell me. Or regarding (b), I know that you don't like that The Pure And Simple Truth doesn't end with Harry/Draco romance resolution. I know it's disappointing to you, but I'm not interested in another ending. So I've just stopped asking.

But then when I see comments that say, "Gee, the end to The Boy Who Only Lived Twice was really rushed," or "Gee, I wish The Pure and Simple Truth had making-out at the end"--I don't know why, but I get really happy! I pump my fist! Yes, I was right! Yes, the end of "He Who Must Not Be Normal" makes no sense, and it's because I messed up! Yes, the end of "The Kids Weren't Alright" is unsatisfying, and I did it on purpose! Yes, "Let's Stop The Time Warp" is clunky and boring in places and it's because I got tired of it--sing it! Yes, "The Chuck Writes Story" is disgustingly meta; it was meant to be revoltingly meta! Yes! Yes!

When I see things like this I get really satisfied. I thought "The Hollow Men" was going to be wanky, and then it wasn't. But when I finally found it being discussed on an anon meme, I was glad that some people had a problem with it, because it is difficult subject matter, and while I tried really, really, really hard, when I finished it I still thought aspects of it were problematic. Seeing others say so made me trust my judgment better. They hadn't understood what I was trying to do, but that was part of the problem with the fic. It could have been better.

So, I like that reinforcement, but for some reason I don't like it as much when someone says it to me directly. Why? Idk. My guess is that when someone says it directly to me I feel the need to explain, and then I'm explaining my failures over and over again. But when I see people noting things for themselves or talking to other people, I know I can walk on by, while still getting information that I want. The problem is you can't really solicit that kind of thing. You can only hope you can find it.

*Jurassic Park isn't horrible.

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I'm sorry you're feeling bad about things :(.

Your thoughts about constructive criticism are interesting, though! I usually do tend to think I can anticipate what's wrong with my writing so I'm not particularly anxious to see those assessments echoed OR to hear things I didn't realize were a problem. But it's probably useful in the long run.

I usually do tend to think I can anticipate what's wrong with my writing so I'm not particularly anxious to see those assessments echoed

I like them echoed, but not to my face.

OR to hear things I didn't realize were a problem.

I feel like this rarely happens to me. I wish it happened more.

Do you think it's validating, or is it useful to you to think about the problems in the story that you didn't solve?

Yes? Both? It's validating when my own assessments are echoed, because it's nice to hear that many people agree with what I thought was wrong with my story. It's useful to think about problems I didn't solve, because I can think about what to do next time.

That makes sense!

I think for me, criticism in general (whether of my work or someone else's) isn't that valuable unless I have a context of where it's coming from. So while there are situations when a negative voice from an unknown-to-me critic could be helpful or reinforcing, it might be more useful to me to go to my betas or people who have given me useful positive feedback and say, "Okay, what are some things you think I could/should do to improve?" Though idk how that would go...

I get this.

This is fascinating to me because it is so alien to my own perspective on criticism of my writing. I tend to be a big bundle of anxiety about the quality of what I write so generally speaking I'm much happier not knowing if someone didn't like some aspect of it because I've already been excessively harsh on myself and I don't need more negativity.

Which means that I tend to be wary, when bookmarking, of saying less-than-complimentary things of other people's fic! (In fact I distinctly recall the one time I said something less than positive about one of your fics in a bookmark I felt really uncomfortable about it. :P I guess that I can stop feeling weird about that one at least!)

(also: good luck getting though the next twelve hours, whatever it is that's going on!)

I've already been excessively harsh on myself and I don't need more negativity

Well, I've already been hard on myself so I don't really want it in my face. When I go out looking for it, I want it to be there. I especially want to be validated about being hard on myself, because then I know I'm on the right track.

Which means that I tend to be wary, when bookmarking, of saying less-than-complimentary things of other people's fic!

This is nice. And like I said, mostly when people are bookmarking they're really nice, even if there's criticism there too--after all, they're bookmarking my fic! It's probably because they liked it!

the one time I said something less than positive about one of your fics in a bookmark I felt really uncomfortable about it. :P I guess that I can stop feeling weird about that one at least!

Don't feel bad about it! If I found it I probably went, "Thank God someone agreed with me about how I really felt about my own fic!"

Thanks ;o)

Hmm, interesting! I don't do anon memes and I don't publicly bookmark fic, but I do review books on a personal non-DW site and from the beginning, I knew that authors could be reading it (I still remember the day in 1997 I got email from Mary Doria Russell about an essay I'd written about _The Sparrow_ . . . ). So I try to avoid being cruel and unwarrantedly personal, but I always remember that I'm writing for other readers and not the author.

I still remember the day in 1997 I got email from Mary Doria Russell about an essay I'd written about _The Sparrow_ . . .

WHAT. That is cool. I mean intimidating. But also cool!

So I try to avoid being cruel and unwarrantedly personal, but I always remember that I'm writing for other readers and not the author.

Which I think is great. I haven't really found cruel or personal comments about myself and my writing. For the most part it's bookmarks, and if someone is bookmarking my fic they liked it. But anyway, there's the stuff you say to an author, and there's the stuff you say to other readers, just like you say--and sometimes as an author I really want to know what readers would really say!

Yes, it was boggling! (She said something like thanks for trying to talk about it on a level that wasn't just summarizing the plot, which a lot of reviewers seemed to get stuck on.) Sadly, I don't agree with my 1997 self (who can be found here: http://steelypips.org/paired/spar_userv.html ) as much these days (it's a book that hasn't held up well for me), but it's a moment I'l never forget.

Fic reviews were once an accepted thing in fandom, and now they're not, which I rather regret but on the other hand I couldn't possibly keep up with them as a reviewer or reader, so I don't have much of a leg to stand on there . . .

Oh no! I remember that book with fondness. Though now that I think about it, it certainly has some issues. I've thought about reading it again, but now I wouldn't want to. It makes me sad to crush my teenage self! Your link is broken, though. It's nice she thanked you for doing that.

Fic reviews were once an accepted thing in fandom, and now they're not

I've always found it a mixed bag. And I read enough things that I don't comment on that I don't have a leg to stand on either!

Funkiness of reply-by-email, will remember not to do that again. With proper html linking this time.

Thank you! It was an interesting review. Do you still like The Culture series? Someone at work is reading it and recommended it.

I haven't read the last three yet. I re-read the rest a few years ago (booklog posts) and they are a mixed bag, but on the whole I'm fond of it because I like the setting and its energy, and the best of it is very good indeed.

Thanks so much!

That drive-by sentence in last paragraph is the most interesting to me, b/c it seems like you EMBRACE feedback about your story (and wish there were more unique viewpoints) but don't like (b/c boring? frustrating?) having to interact with the feedback. It's like you don't have the "Yes, but..." reflex people have to defend your work when someone pokes holes in it, and that's really cool. I bet, if you were pro writer, you'd never get in trouble by invading a fan forum or exploding all over twitter.

but don't like (b/c boring? frustrating?) having to interact with the feedback

I like interacting with nice feedback. It gives me the warm fuzzies. I don't like interacting with negative feedback because I do have the "Yes, but..." reflex and can't control it. I find it frustrating that I can't control it. I find it frustrating that I didn't do better on the fic in the first place. I get bored with myself for being graceless and unable to deal with it.

I bet, if you were pro writer, you'd never get in trouble by invading a fan forum or exploding all over twitter.

Idk. You physically cannot comment on people's bookmarks and that's mostly where I see this stuff. And on an anon meme people just don't care, so yeah, I don't have the point. But there have been a few times where I saw someone make an lj post with a rec, and the rec contained criticisms, and I have wanted to go "Yes, but..." So I feel like if I had to see that everywhere all the time I might totally give in to being hilariously wanky. Luckily right now people just talk about my stuff in places where it'd take way more trouble to interact with them than it's really worth.

Oh! That's a legit reason for not wanting the opportunity to interact. You can't be a jerk in the comments if the 'comment' isn't something you can respond to.

HAHAHA Yes!

On one hand, my feelings about receiving actual crit are the same as likeadeuce's feelings - it's a million times more useful coming from people I know, whose taste and judgment I trust.

OTOH, I am always enormously tickled to see people discussing fic of mine in a context where they wouldn't expect me to see it (which is mostly anon memes). I just don't tend to think of it as crit. Rather, it's reader response, which occupies a whole different category in my brain. The readers might have wanted more sex, and I might be totally comfortable in my choice not to give it to them, but I'm also interested to hear that they had that response. I guess I just find it really flattering and validating that people talk about my fic among themselves, regardless of what they might be saying about it.

Also, I am sorry everything is terrible. *hugs*

it's a million times more useful coming from people I know, whose taste and judgment I trust.

This is either going to sound pitiful or super harsh. There just aren't many people I know, whose taste and judgment I trust, who I can convince to read and comment on my writing.

I just don't tend to think of it as crit. Rather, it's reader response

I feel like "I wish there was more sex!" is response, but "this ending is rushed" feels like crit. That's what I meant about some of the stuff being stuff I'm not going to change--hearing that people don't like the kind of porn I write or that they wanted gen when it was romance or romance when it was gen is all stuff that's interesting, but not stuff I'm inclined to change.

I guess I just find it really flattering and validating that people talk about my fic among themselves

I feel that way too!

Well, people often phrase those things as crit: "There should have been more sex." Which is fine; I'm still okay with disregarding it. I guess, basically, I have pretty strong opinions about my own writing, about what does and doesn't work, and am doubtful of the random person on the street being about to tell me anything about how it SHOULD be. I am, however, willing and interested to hear how it came across TO THEM, and that feels like a really different question to me.

As far as finding people to comment on my writing, I was mostly thinking of my alpha readers. I have one who I basically send scenes to as I finish them, partly just to say I did, and she does the same with her stuff, and we cheer each other on but also ask each other about things we don't get or aren't sure about. Sometimes I'll ask her to read a complete draft over again, if I'm feeling anxious about some aspect of it. Obviously that's not the same as commentary on a finished product, but I still find it really helpful. Anyway, crit on a finished product always feels a little useless to me; it's not like I'm going to go edit it after the fact, except for things like typos.

I don't know. I am just blathering at this point.

doubtful of the random person on the street being about to tell me anything about how it SHOULD be. I am, however, willing and interested to hear how it came across TO THEM, and that feels like a really different question to me.

Whoa. Yeah. I think you just lit upon the thing that makes me like crit not directed at me. I didn't realize that was it. I like to hear people say what it felt like to them, not what they think I should have done. THIS IS AMAZING.

I was mostly thinking of my alpha readers. I have one who I basically send scenes to as I finish them, partly just to say I did, and she does the same with her stuff, and we cheer each other on but also ask each other about things we don't get or aren't sure about.

Yeah I don't really know how to get people like that.

I'm so glad I could help! :D

Yeah, I don't really know, either. Mine have all been accidental. Like, they were people I talked to anyway - the kind of people I write to when I discover a really weird and possible transferable-to-werepeople form of animal reproduction - and then I asked them to beta something, and there you go. I don't have a strategy, I'm afraid.

Forgive me butting in, but I love this stuff.

My favorite crit method is definitely based on response, not prescription. I love it because as soon as somebody says "you should do it this way," my ornery brain immediately rebels, and it's hard to redirect that. But response crit is fascinating, because even if they didn't like it or it didn't work for them, I can at least sometimes use that to see where the problem in the story is. (Granted, sometimes the problem is that that reader is not at all my audience, but that's okay.) And responses - especially the "I wanted more of this" or "I was confused about this" or "I wondered about this" - can also help when I haven't developed something enough, show me where the holes are.

It's hard to find writing partners. I always marvel at people who do co-authoring, too - how does that even work?

FWIW, you come up on the panfandom anon meme pretty regularly when people are searching for certain kinds of fics - Tony/Pepper or Avengers team gen mostly, but people rec you for H/D as well. People who aren't me, even. :D

REALLY. That is so neat. I wish I could see that; it's so interesting and SO NICE.

Actually, there's a pretty great search engine specifically for the meme here - you could search for your name and see what turns up. :)

I'm a lot like you with criticism. The word that jumped to mind as I read your post was, "Validation!" When people talk to me about criticism they have (which happens more with clinical work, ie. me providing psychotherapy, these days than writing) I want to geek out about my failures as much as my successes. "Yeah! I totally failed to follow through there. I was kind of thrown because of a personal issue, and I was getting a leg cramp I should have addressed but I wanted to look like I was listening, so I totally missed a chance to jump in there with an observation."

Given that my only alternative for dealing with criticism is to sit there stonily and cry, I am really glad I developed the ability to do that.

Also, I am definitely sorry everything is awful. If you were here I'd throw you a pity party and serve up something you really like eating.

I want to geek out about my failures as much as my successes.

THIS. This so much I can't even.

I am really glad I developed the ability to do that.

I'm glad you did too!

If you were here I'd throw you a pity party and serve up something you really like eating.

:o) Thank you.

Hugs. I also like validation that something is wrong with one of my creative works, the worst is that I know something is wrong, can't pinpoint what it is and I can't get anyone to give me critical feedback.

Yeah, I know that feeling too!

The good all the time is like an illusion. You know it's not all the bomb, I know it's not all the bomb why don't we just say it. And then the positive doesn't feel as genuine or authentic somehow as the negative. The negative does validate what you know is wrong and then you can maybe fix it at another point because now it's been addressed and externalized in some way. Of course that could just be me and I'm really tired right now and therefore incoherent.

Concrit is hard for a lot of people to give, especially when it's not all roses because it requires an uncomfortable examination of a text that you don't like. There's an engagement that is harder to achieve and therefore the things that don't work, I think, are harder to articulate. Of course, if you love the manuscript then relaying the information can get all personal and everyone gets nervous about hurt feelings.

Whatevs!

Ok. Quitting while I am a little bit ahead because at this point my eyes are totally crossing, wtf!

I DON'T MAKE SENSE!

Edited 2014-01-31 06:10 (UTC)

While I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say I like hearing criticisms of my work indirectly, it is a whole different beast than people leaving concrit for me directly. The former is someone engaging with my work enough to care, the latter is people "helpfully" telling me things like I didn't already know them. Maybe I'm excessively sensitive to condescencion, but there it is.

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