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Angel and perfect happiness
Sometimes fandom, lj, and people are callous and strange. And confusing. But I love them lots. Again. Still.
Anyway, back to Important Issues.
I'm sure this has been discussed before (I know![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
a2zmom and I had a great discussion about it once), but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.
On the one hand, it seems unlikely Angel could lose his soul due to the curse again. Wesley points out that, "99.999-ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness" ("Smile Time", AtS, 5x14). He believes "perfect happiness" is something rare and virtually unattainable--like nirvana or enlightment? I guess, in Buddhism? Who knows.
Also, the episode "Awakening" (AtS, 4x10) suggests that "perfect happiness" can only arise from a confluence of events: LA must be safe from the latest threat, Wesley and Angel must come to an understanding, Connor and Angel must come to and understanding, Cordelia and Angel must not only come to and understanding and have sex, but Cordelia must claim she forgives him for his past, etc.
Even "Surprise" (BtVS, 2x13) can be seen in this light. I hope we can all agree Angel doesn't lose his soul there due to sex, but love. But one could argue it's not just the act of love, or even Buffy herself, or anything but again, a confluence of events that leads up to that moment. At this point, it seemed to me as though Angel believed he could love and have some measure of happiness, even if he also knew it was a foolish belief. Also, (and I think this wasa2zmom's argument, correct me if I'm wrong) he thinks he might be able to achieve some kind of atonement or forgiveness...perhaps not completely, but to some point where he can live with himself. He never seems to really believe either of those things again, but if he does then it makes sense that he loses his soul not due to just Buffy but some belief that in some way he's kinda forgiven.
Thus, it would seem logical to argue that so much has happened with Angel, particularly the loss of his son, etc, that perfect happiness would never really be possible.
On the other hand, I think it's possible that "perfect happiness" may not be everything at a certain time going right, or even most things. Look at the other side of the coin: many people have experienced despair so great they feel like ending their lives, but a lot of those people have a bunch of wonderful things going for them. Everything is not going wrong, but a few things or even just one big thing has made them feel their lives are not worth living. Is that "perfect despair"? I guess I would say so, though I can see arguments against it.
My thing is I feel like I've experienced perfect happiness, once or thrice in my life. It wasn't that everything was going right, or that might life at that point was what I wanted it to be. It was being with family or friends, and just feeling this...surge, as of joy or beauty or something so great it can't really be described except by the word love. And it only lasted a moment or two, but in those moments, I sincerely believe that nothing could've made me happier, not a million dollars, not the jobs of my dreams, not at last knowing the love of my life or whatever. Two seconds later, hell yeah, but in that moment, and one or two others in my life, I felt like my life wasn't perfect, but that I was feeling perfect happiness.
I think Angel could feel that. I think it's what he felt with Buffy. I think he felt like none of his issues with her resolved and that he was no good for her and that it wasn't going to work out and he could never atone, but in that moment it fell away and he was just perfectly happy in the moment. I don't think it could've happened with Cordy in S4 because too much other stuff was going on, but that doesn't mean he couldn't feel it with her or some other woman at some calmer point in his life.
My beef with that is he should've felt it with Connor in his arms. I still think that he would have, when Connor first said "dada" or "Dad" while not pointing a weapon at him. But anyway, I don't see the curse as a non-issue because he won't ever be perfectly happy again. I think it could be in the cards for him, depending on what happened post-NFA.
What do you think? Discuss, disagree, throw tomatoes, eat cheese, stare at your navel. Please.
Anyway, back to Important Issues.
I'm sure this has been discussed before (I know
a2zmom and I had a great discussion about it once), but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.On the one hand, it seems unlikely Angel could lose his soul due to the curse again. Wesley points out that, "99.999-ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness" ("Smile Time", AtS, 5x14). He believes "perfect happiness" is something rare and virtually unattainable--like nirvana or enlightment? I guess, in Buddhism? Who knows.
Also, the episode "Awakening" (AtS, 4x10) suggests that "perfect happiness" can only arise from a confluence of events: LA must be safe from the latest threat, Wesley and Angel must come to an understanding, Connor and Angel must come to and understanding, Cordelia and Angel must not only come to and understanding and have sex, but Cordelia must claim she forgives him for his past, etc.
Even "Surprise" (BtVS, 2x13) can be seen in this light. I hope we can all agree Angel doesn't lose his soul there due to sex, but love. But one could argue it's not just the act of love, or even Buffy herself, or anything but again, a confluence of events that leads up to that moment. At this point, it seemed to me as though Angel believed he could love and have some measure of happiness, even if he also knew it was a foolish belief. Also, (and I think this was
a2zmom's argument, correct me if I'm wrong) he thinks he might be able to achieve some kind of atonement or forgiveness...perhaps not completely, but to some point where he can live with himself. He never seems to really believe either of those things again, but if he does then it makes sense that he loses his soul not due to just Buffy but some belief that in some way he's kinda forgiven.Thus, it would seem logical to argue that so much has happened with Angel, particularly the loss of his son, etc, that perfect happiness would never really be possible.
On the other hand, I think it's possible that "perfect happiness" may not be everything at a certain time going right, or even most things. Look at the other side of the coin: many people have experienced despair so great they feel like ending their lives, but a lot of those people have a bunch of wonderful things going for them. Everything is not going wrong, but a few things or even just one big thing has made them feel their lives are not worth living. Is that "perfect despair"? I guess I would say so, though I can see arguments against it.
My thing is I feel like I've experienced perfect happiness, once or thrice in my life. It wasn't that everything was going right, or that might life at that point was what I wanted it to be. It was being with family or friends, and just feeling this...surge, as of joy or beauty or something so great it can't really be described except by the word love. And it only lasted a moment or two, but in those moments, I sincerely believe that nothing could've made me happier, not a million dollars, not the jobs of my dreams, not at last knowing the love of my life or whatever. Two seconds later, hell yeah, but in that moment, and one or two others in my life, I felt like my life wasn't perfect, but that I was feeling perfect happiness.
I think Angel could feel that. I think it's what he felt with Buffy. I think he felt like none of his issues with her resolved and that he was no good for her and that it wasn't going to work out and he could never atone, but in that moment it fell away and he was just perfectly happy in the moment. I don't think it could've happened with Cordy in S4 because too much other stuff was going on, but that doesn't mean he couldn't feel it with her or some other woman at some calmer point in his life.
My beef with that is he should've felt it with Connor in his arms. I still think that he would have, when Connor first said "dada" or "Dad" while not pointing a weapon at him. But anyway, I don't see the curse as a non-issue because he won't ever be perfectly happy again. I think it could be in the cards for him, depending on what happened post-NFA.
What do you think? Discuss, disagree, throw tomatoes, eat cheese, stare at your navel. Please.
no subject
More than that, I think how they set it up from the beginning is ridiculous. After Angel comes back from Hell, you have the story and the character telling us that if he can just avoid perfect happiness by constructing his life with a little misery and focusing on the brooding, then all is well. Angel can somehow control how happy he is at every single moment. That's so unbelievable to me (although believable that Angel would have the ego to think that's true). I think it would have been a more dramatic and powerful device if they'd really played up the idea that as long as Angel is in contact with humans and doing the things he needs to do to effectively fight for redemption, it's inevitable that he'll lose his soul. It's not a question of if, but when, and he has to work his ass off to do what he can while he's got it.
Also, and this is now just fanwaking, I think it would have made more sense/been more powerful in light of the other happenings on the show if there would have been some indication that his moments of perfect happiness were orchestrated by the Powers to serve a greater purpose. That they were deliberate, and allowed, and that Angel finds one day that he's a tool even when the soul is gone. It totally would have fucked with him, to know that even soulless he was playing a role and that as far as the universe is concerned, once he started putting it all on the line for the good fight it was all ok.
no subject
I'm not sure that would've worked for Angel's character though, especially before "Epiphany" in AtS S2, but even after that. See, my view of Angel is that if he thought it was inevitable he'd go soulless again if he kept being in contact with humans and fighting for redemption, he wouldn't remain with humans or fight for redemption. He doesn't think enough of what he's doing, the difference he's making, his place in the scheme of things, for him to believe what he does is worth risking Angelus. Completely imo, of course. He does have a super ego, but that ego more often, from what I can tell, convinces him he's mythically dangerous and worthless more often than mythically heroic and worthwhile.
That they were deliberate, and allowed, and that Angel finds one day that he's a tool even when the soul is gone.
Yeah, you're totally right. A while ago when I was talking about my dislike of the magic snow in "Amends", some people pointed out they liked it because it was all about how whatever powers out there are just cosmically jerking Angel's chain all the time, and that so makes sense. Angel's a tool and he hates it, and throwing that element in would make it that much worse.
no subject
Hmm, I guess I disagree. In this scenario, if he would have believed losing his soul was an inevitable part of interacting with and caring about humans early on, even before Buffy, then he would have withdrawn. But I think that Angel develops into a true, pragmatic hero and that his journey becomes less about personal redemption and more about doing what's right because it's right. And my view of the soul isn't that he should know it's inevitable all along but that it's a developmental arc for his character, if that makes sense. Something he comes to terms with rather than continuing to be something he believes he can control-- although as I said, believing he can control every single moment of his experience is very Angel.
no subject
And my view of the soul isn't that he should know it's inevitable all along but that it's a developmental arc for his character, if that makes sense. Something he comes to terms with rather than continuing to be something he believes he can control
Yeah, I definitely see what you're saying, and that would've been so interesting. What Angel can control and what he can't and what he learns about that seems so much a part of AtS--after "Epiphany" he realizes he won't ever win, and by S5 he's convinced he has to work within the system...then again, he never really accepts any of that, not at heart, I don't think. He still seems to think he can save the world.
That's why I love him.