Angel and perfect happiness

[lettered]

Sometimes fandom, lj, and people are callous and strange. And confusing. But I love them lots. Again. Still.

Anyway, back to Important Issues.



I'm sure this has been discussed before (I know a2zmom and I had a great discussion about it once), but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.

On the one hand, it seems unlikely Angel could lose his soul due to the curse again. Wesley points out that, "99.999-ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness" ("Smile Time", AtS, 5x14). He believes "perfect happiness" is something rare and virtually unattainable--like nirvana or enlightment? I guess, in Buddhism? Who knows.

Also, the episode "Awakening" (AtS, 4x10) suggests that "perfect happiness" can only arise from a confluence of events: LA must be safe from the latest threat, Wesley and Angel must come to an understanding, Connor and Angel must come to and understanding, Cordelia and Angel must not only come to and understanding and have sex, but Cordelia must claim she forgives him for his past, etc.

Even "Surprise" (BtVS, 2x13) can be seen in this light. I hope we can all agree Angel doesn't lose his soul there due to sex, but love. But one could argue it's not just the act of love, or even Buffy herself, or anything but again, a confluence of events that leads up to that moment. At this point, it seemed to me as though Angel believed he could love and have some measure of happiness, even if he also knew it was a foolish belief. Also, (and I think this was a2zmom's argument, correct me if I'm wrong) he thinks he might be able to achieve some kind of atonement or forgiveness...perhaps not completely, but to some point where he can live with himself. He never seems to really believe either of those things again, but if he does then it makes sense that he loses his soul not due to just Buffy but some belief that in some way he's kinda forgiven.

Thus, it would seem logical to argue that so much has happened with Angel, particularly the loss of his son, etc, that perfect happiness would never really be possible.

On the other hand, I think it's possible that "perfect happiness" may not be everything at a certain time going right, or even most things. Look at the other side of the coin: many people have experienced despair so great they feel like ending their lives, but a lot of those people have a bunch of wonderful things going for them. Everything is not going wrong, but a few things or even just one big thing has made them feel their lives are not worth living. Is that "perfect despair"? I guess I would say so, though I can see arguments against it.

My thing is I feel like I've experienced perfect happiness, once or thrice in my life. It wasn't that everything was going right, or that might life at that point was what I wanted it to be. It was being with family or friends, and just feeling this...surge, as of joy or beauty or something so great it can't really be described except by the word love. And it only lasted a moment or two, but in those moments, I sincerely believe that nothing could've made me happier, not a million dollars, not the jobs of my dreams, not at last knowing the love of my life or whatever. Two seconds later, hell yeah, but in that moment, and one or two others in my life, I felt like my life wasn't perfect, but that I was feeling perfect happiness.

I think Angel could feel that. I think it's what he felt with Buffy. I think he felt like none of his issues with her resolved and that he was no good for her and that it wasn't going to work out and he could never atone, but in that moment it fell away and he was just perfectly happy in the moment. I don't think it could've happened with Cordy in S4 because too much other stuff was going on, but that doesn't mean he couldn't feel it with her or some other woman at some calmer point in his life.

My beef with that is he should've felt it with Connor in his arms. I still think that he would have, when Connor first said "dada" or "Dad" while not pointing a weapon at him. But anyway, I don't see the curse as a non-issue because he won't ever be perfectly happy again. I think it could be in the cards for him, depending on what happened post-NFA.

What do you think? Discuss, disagree, throw tomatoes, eat cheese, stare at your navel. Please.

Comments

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

I agree that it could happen for Angel again, but I don't believe it will because I don't think Angel will let it. I think he will always want something more, and that desire--be it for forgiveness, love, Connor, a whole laundry list--will temper his future happiness. I think he can, and will, be happy in the future, but I think he's too jaded, too desperate for that one elusive it, to *fully* experience happiness again.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

See, I get the Angel not letting it, but I'm not sure I'm down with the him being to jaded and desperate to ever experience perfect happiness again. I guess I believe in a love (whether it be romantic, familial, or even just friendly) that can make that disappear for a second, you know? But yeah, I totally see what you're saying, and it makes sense. Also, it kinda makes sense that Angel couldn't be perfectly happy with the knowledge the perfect happiness sends him psycho. The knowledge is always there, whether he's thinking of it or not...

[aloneinthetown.livejournal.com]

I don't think he can, either. I feel like the perfect happiness that he had, somewhat, sprung from his naivete. He hadn't experienced enough sorrow yet to *not* be able to achieve perfect happiness. Even if he were with Buffy after NFA, I doubt he would be able to achieve perfect happiness. He's gone through too much. Well - maybe eventually he would be able too, but it would be a long, long time after NFA.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I see what you mean. He definitely had a kind of innocence in "Surprise" that he can't ever regain.

But yeah, maybe far, far in the future post-NFA? *crosses fingers on him being alive*

*sniffles*

[lynnenne]

I really can't ever see it happening without Connor being a part of his life. And yeah, I agree... he should have felt it the first time he held that little baby in his arms (and Holtz wasn't pointing a crossbow at them). The writers wanked it by saying "But it's not perfect happiness, because he worries about Connor and he's terrified that something might happen to him." And I can kind of see where this would be a nearly constant worry--hell, it's one of the big reasons I *don't* have children. But I never really bought the idea that Angel was never able to let it go, even for one euphoric instant. It just seemed too convenient.

[lynnenne]

Oh, and I should add that the curse was one of the stupidest, most Deus-ex-machina plot devices that Joss ever introduced, and while I loved the Angelus arc in BtVS S2, I hated the high-handed morality of it all. I mean, he just *happens* to go evil because he and Buffy have sex? Please, Joss. You can do better.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree. I totally see him being worried over Connor, but to hear my mom describe it...she had a bunch of post-partum depression, didn't think she could take care of us etc etc (even though that made no sense, the thought was still there for her)--but then she talks about the moments when she'd look at us and just know we were hers (and my dad's) and that she loved us more than anything in the world...I can't believe that's not perfect happiness, just a shot of it.

Ah. *happy daughter sigh*

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Hmm, feeling it with Connor in his arms? With people trying to kill him and steal his baby lingering in his mind? i'll respectfully disagree.

But I agree with the confluence of events theory. Example: Jasmine apparently made everyone happy. Angel didn't get lose his soul then.

(And I also think the writers added to the "history" of Angel's past as they went along, so S2 Buffy can't be all we go on, as you noted.)

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

*headdesk* Angel didn't LOSE his soul then. I like to add extra words that don't make sense for spice.

I'll just sip my Alka-Seltzer and burrow again, and leave the talk to the grownups.

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

I've wondered that about the Jasmine arc, why Angel didn't lose his soul then. Maybe because it was a false sense of happiness? A happiness with underlying malicious intent, in that Jasmine wanted to take away free will? If that is the case, does that point more toward the 'one single moment' theory rather than the confluence of events theory? I don't know. I haven't watched S4 in quite awhile so my memory is a bit dim regarding specific details, so I could be way off base.

I do agree with you about the baby Connor aspect. Connor was this unbelivable miracle for Angel, and I think that no matter how ecstatic he was over his son, he was as equally terrified and worried. Not only with the normal parental fears, but Connor was everything Angel had ever wanted--the ideal of family and love--and I believe his fear of damaging his child because of who he (Angel) is, was just as compelling in his mind as the danger of Holtz and W&H.

[marenfic.livejournal.com]

I think they totally fucked up the perfect happiness. If Connor-- who has been touted as Angel's Shanshu, as the love of his life-- can't make him perfectly happy then what could? With that in mind, I have to go with the "never again unless magically altered" camp.

More than that, I think how they set it up from the beginning is ridiculous. After Angel comes back from Hell, you have the story and the character telling us that if he can just avoid perfect happiness by constructing his life with a little misery and focusing on the brooding, then all is well. Angel can somehow control how happy he is at every single moment. That's so unbelievable to me (although believable that Angel would have the ego to think that's true). I think it would have been a more dramatic and powerful device if they'd really played up the idea that as long as Angel is in contact with humans and doing the things he needs to do to effectively fight for redemption, it's inevitable that he'll lose his soul. It's not a question of if, but when, and he has to work his ass off to do what he can while he's got it.

Also, and this is now just fanwaking, I think it would have made more sense/been more powerful in light of the other happenings on the show if there would have been some indication that his moments of perfect happiness were orchestrated by the Powers to serve a greater purpose. That they were deliberate, and allowed, and that Angel finds one day that he's a tool even when the soul is gone. It totally would have fucked with him, to know that even soulless he was playing a role and that as far as the universe is concerned, once he started putting it all on the line for the good fight it was all ok.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I think it would have been a more dramatic and powerful device if they'd really played up the idea that as long as Angel is in contact with humans and doing the things he needs to do to effectively fight for redemption, it's inevitable that he'll lose his soul. It's not a question of if, but when, and he has to work his ass off to do what he can while he's got it.

I'm not sure that would've worked for Angel's character though, especially before "Epiphany" in AtS S2, but even after that. See, my view of Angel is that if he thought it was inevitable he'd go soulless again if he kept being in contact with humans and fighting for redemption, he wouldn't remain with humans or fight for redemption. He doesn't think enough of what he's doing, the difference he's making, his place in the scheme of things, for him to believe what he does is worth risking Angelus. Completely imo, of course. He does have a super ego, but that ego more often, from what I can tell, convinces him he's mythically dangerous and worthless more often than mythically heroic and worthwhile.

That they were deliberate, and allowed, and that Angel finds one day that he's a tool even when the soul is gone.

Yeah, you're totally right. A while ago when I was talking about my dislike of the magic snow in "Amends", some people pointed out they liked it because it was all about how whatever powers out there are just cosmically jerking Angel's chain all the time, and that so makes sense. Angel's a tool and he hates it, and throwing that element in would make it that much worse.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Thus, it would seem logical to argue that so much has happened with Angel, particularly the loss of his son, etc, that perfect happiness would never really be possible.

The problem, is that "perfect happiness" is a concept that utterly defies quantification. We can look back in retrospect, and try to desconstruct that moment in Surprise to figure out how and why that qualified. And look at other moments and determine why they didn't. But I don't think we can ever be sure.

I would say this much... that the likelihood is very low. But I do believe it's possible - that it happens once indicates that it can happen. The question is... weighing all the potential costs of him losing his soul over the next eternity vs. the low risk that it would happen... what is that worth and what does that mean in terms of judgements to be made about how he lives his life and how others interact with him.

Personally, I am a very risk-averse person, and I wouldn't want to gamble on it when the risk is peoples' lives. If I were in a position, I would be devoting a lot of down time into studying that curse and looking for ways to make sure it never triggered.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I am a very risk-averse person, and I wouldn't want to gamble on it when the risk is peoples' lives. If I were in a position, I would be devoting a lot of down time into studying that curse and looking for ways to make sure it never triggered.

Angel's so ashamed of all the murders etc he committed that it surprises me that he, too, doesn't take more time to figure out the curse and try to make the soul permanent. I mean, he wouldn't be doing it for himself, but everybody else, and Angel likes to think he's doing things for the good of others.

[ros-fod.livejournal.com]

GAH. Discussing this with any acuity would involve me remembering BtVS episodes with much more clarity than I do. If I remember *correctly*, the idea of the "perfect happiness" resulting in the loss of Angel's soul and that PH = sex with Buffy is something that the Scoobies and Angel come up with through some interesting qualitative theory without any actual proof for their assumptions. It's passed off as canon in BtVS, but in actuality, we don't know for sure that it's the sex or the sex with Buffy or even that it's a factor of the gypsys' curse.

On AtS, the idea of Angel losing his soul through perfect happiness is much more convoluted, as is the idea of the soul as being containable and easily removed and/or re-inserted back into Angel's body. The soul on AtS is almost a piece of Mr. Angelpotatohead; watch out and it might accidentally end up in his eyesocket.

PH is obviously (now) much more than a boff with a blonde. Just ask Darla. Since sex is somehow involved and we agree that Connor should be somehow involved, I think that it's only logical that sex with Connor would do the trick.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Theorem. If PH = f(eyesocket)sex, and PH > Boffing A Blonde, then ∑_k=Connor ^sex Angel^k = PH, where sex = wild!monkey!sex!with!tenderness + the word daddy.

Proof. It's hot?

You = genius. Me = dork who forgot all her maths and is certain summation doesn't make sense there, but anyway, is laughing. her. ass. off. Seriously, behind me? No ass. Negative assness.

[my_daroga]

You know, this is one of those things, like the whole BtVS/AtS concept of the "soul" to begin with, that they really dropped the ball on. Much as we have no idea what having a "soul" really means here, we don't really know what "perfect happiness" is. First off, this clause in the curse always seems like a convenient out for the authors, who needed to propel the storyline (in a wonderful direction, don't get me wrong) and didn't stop to think about why the gypsies would have let him "off the hook" just for forgetting he was naughty. What kind of punishment is that? It's more like a reward. Anyway, having set this up, the writers also had to deal with it the rest of the character's life, and I think this caused a lot of sloppiness when it came to how it all worked. I know I should be discussing this within the universe of the series, but it's really difficult for me to do that when the motives of the authors play such a big part in it. It's like trying to explain Mulder's sister within canon. Won't work.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

didn't stop to think about why the gypsies would have let him "off the hook" just for forgetting he was naughty.

My fanwank for it was always that the gypsies couldn't give a person his soul back, i.e., it can only be earned. So, what the gypsies had was not a curse to give him a soul, but a curse to torture him. As soon as he personally overcomes feeling tortured, the spell is no longer in effect. Kind of like a love spell that stops working once you've realized it's been cast because you realize you may not be really in love. So they just cast it and hoped Angelus was a guy with a capacity for huge guilt, and tried to follow him not because they always wanted him tortured (despite what Jenny's uncle says) but because they knew their spell had its failings.

Anyway, I still agree the writers were sloppy, and I understand what you say about it being difficult to discuss. As I think you witnessed I kinda have the same trouble with Spike and his soul, so yeah.

[canadiangirl-86.livejournal.com]

I think the fact that Angel knows what can happen if he's perfectly happy is what will keep him from experiencing that feeling ever again. The only time in his life when he got to such a point and it wasn't artificial was prior to having this knowledge.

That's kinda my wank for why he didn't lose his soul while holding Connor in his arms, added to the fact that there were a whole shitload of psychopaths looking to kill his son.

The thing that bothers me more is what *Angel* thought about the curse. Did he really think that he could lose it with someone who wasn't Buffy? Did he think it was just the sex and that's why he was committing soul-suicide with Darla in Reprise?

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I think the fact that Angel knows what can happen if he's perfectly happy is what will keep him from experiencing that feeling ever again.

Makes sense.

Did he think it was just the sex and that's why he was committing soul-suicide with Darla in Reprise?

See, I personally never thought he had sex with Darla to lose his soul. Imo, he didn't give a fuck. Maybe the thought crossed his mind, but if it did, it wasn't "ok, let's go lose a soul" and more along the lines of "I could care less either way." To him, sleeping with Darla itself was soullessness, loss of a soul. She was soullessness, and he was doing it because him having a soul just made absolutely no difference in his life any more.

When he realized what he had done and it still wasn't going to change anything--not because he didn't lose his soul but because he lost it and it made no difference--he realized if nothing he did mattered he might as well be doing good just for the sake of it. And he does. *sniffle*

[rahirah]

Yeah, sure, it could happen. It would be harder because Angel knows now, but the thing about happiness is, it sneaks up on you. You don't sit there and plan it, you can't force it, but when you least expect it, blam! You're happy. And it can happen at the strangest times, for the strangest reasons.

(And yes, he SHOULD have felt it with Connor. Silly writers, orgasms are not the only means to joy!)

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a male, perfect happiness is falling into untroubled sleep. Since this tends to be a rather convenient after affect of some quality sexing, I'm not surprised one might confuse the two.

[baffae.livejournal.com]

In Innocence, perfect happiness for Angel was described as being a moment, no matter how short, in which the soul that was meant to torture and haunt him no longer plagued his thoughts. One split second in which Angel completely forgot about his past as a demon. One split second in which he let himself live in and be taken over the moment at hand.

For S2 BtVS Angel, it was in Buffy's arms, having her complete and total acceptance and trust (in the form of her body), that he was able to achieve this moment. He had one moment of perfect happiness. He felt only good things about himself and his situation and his future. He didn't think of his past.

With baby Connor in his arms, Angel would be bombarded with the thoughts of the impossibility of Connor. He would, no doubt, be in awe of his child; but, he would, no doubt, be in awe of the fact that two vampires could have made said child. Thus his past was still on his mind; his conscience always weighing down on him. That's why, IMO, he did not achieve perfect happiness with Connor.

Do I think he is capable of acheiving it again? The answer is a resounding yes. Because no matter how scarred a person is, I must believe that there is something or someone that can help them forget it all. Maybe it will be a little harder for him to let himself get to that place, but I believe that that place still exists. And as a B/A shipper, I think that the potential still lies with Buffy, but then again, I am a B/A shipper. . .

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I'm not a mother, so I don't really know. But to hear some parents tell it, holding your child in your arms really can make you feel only good things and forget whatever's in your past for one brief moment.

I just don't feel like every time Angel looked at Connor he thought of him as the "product of two vampires". I mean, yeah, every time Angel looks at Connor in the back of his mind he thinks of him as something miraculous, but he's not constantly thinking what he is and where he came from. He's just glad to have him. I guess I'd compare it to a woman who thought she couldn't have a child, and does, or even someone who adopts a kid--it's not always about how the kid got to be there. I know that's not the same thing, because the latter happens sometimes and vamps having kids does not, but I can't help but think that the same thing happens: you look at the kid and he's a miracle but all you're really thinking is how ecstatically happy you are he's yours somehow.

And I totally think Angel's most likely to get there with Buffy, if he does so again. I'd add Connor in, too, but the way things stood in S5 I thought it more likely that B/A could get together than Angel and Connor having a really excellent father-son relationship, the kind that could really give Angel perfect happiness. But I guess it all depends on what happened after NFA...
which is what fanfic is for. Yay!

[spiralleds.livejournal.com]

I'm in the camp they mistakenly over assumed the weight of the sex in the perfect happiness. But how do you test that theory without running a rather high risk? Angel did end up testing that theory with Darla. Both of them appeared to believe that Angel having sex with her had a high likelihood of separating him from his soul. And now that he knows he could lose his soul, now that he's got Connor to worry about and now that he lives with the losses of people he cared deeply about, it strikes me as really unlikely he could lose his soul, even if it was sex with Buffy. It would have to be a rather remarkable confluence of events.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

I didn't really think that Angel thought he would lose his soul sleeping with Darla--or at least, I never thought that was what he was trying to do.

But yeah, I do see the fact that he knows he can lose his soul as reason he might not lose it, in a weirdly paradoxical way.

[anelith.livejournal.com]

You've expressed many of the thoughts I've had on the subject. Yes, I think he could have had the PH moment with Connor (I'm a mother, and watching my husband with his kids I think the soul would have flown out the window).

I wish the writers could have spared a moment in Season 5 to say why Angel didn't take advantage of the vast resources of W&H, plus Wesley's enormous brain, to research possible ways to remove the happiness clause of the curse. Angel wouldn't even have had to feel selfish about it -- this would have been considered a public safety precaution. If a single moment of PH could unleash Angelus upon the world, wouldn't it have been in everyone's interest to work hard at finding a solution to this problem?

I know that the writers probably didn't want to spend a whole episode on this, but during that discussion between him and Wesley that you mention in your post, surely a sentence or two could have been inserted: "You know, Angel," says Wesley, "I haven't forgotten the curse..." etc., etc. Just to let us fans know the writers are thinking about it.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

(I'm a mother, and watching my husband with his kids I think the soul would have flown out the window).

My mom says the same thing. Literally, since she watched both shows with me!

Angel wouldn't even have had to feel selfish about it -- this would have been considered a public safety precaution.

Yeah, for a while there, I wondered how Spike knew he could earn his soul, and if Spike knew it, didn't Angel know it, and why wouldn't Angel go earn it to make it permanent? But someone pointed out to me he probably felt he didn't deserve it, or even that he was possibly incapable of earning it, which makes some kind of sense to me. But it doesn't explain why he never tried to find alternate ways to bind the soul more permanently, because as you say, it would have protected others. I agree that it just felt like lazy writing, especially in S5 when they possibly had the resources to do it. dlgood says above they were really researching it and it never made it to the camera because they never actually found anything, and I'll buy that fanwank...;o)

[margotlefaye.livejournal.com]

Angel was pretty clear about it in Amends when he told Buffy he wanted to lose himself in her, even though he knew it would cost him his soul. "Perfect" happiness, so far as the curse is concerned, can only be achieved when his soul no longer plagues him for the wrongs he did. As someone who has been wildly in love more than once, as someone who experienced a state of ecstasy following childbirth, I have to say the writers really did stretch my willing suspension of disbelief when Angel didn't lose his soul once Connor was in his arms.

But, they didn't stretch it to the breaking point.

At the time he lost his soul with Buffy, the world was in imminent danger of ending due to Spike and Dru's fun and games with the Judge. Despite that, he experienced one moment with Buffy in which his soul wasn't plaguing him for some 150 years of mass murder, torture and unrepentant evil. So, not a big believer in the "confluence of events" theory. It was needed with Cordelia because...Cordelia wasn't Buffy. Being that magic was involved, I'm not even sure if, had the events in his illusion been played out for real, that would have been sufficient to loose the moorings on his soul. They merely set the stage for the magic user to unbind what the Gypsies had bound.

Also not a big believer in the "Angel didn't know what loss was" theory, given that for nearly one hundred years, he had vivid recollections of murdering his father, his mother, his adored baby sister, his friends, family and neighbors. I'm not sure if the character changed all that much on Ats, so much as more of the character that already existed was revealed to the audience, as time went on. I'll have to think about that one.

The thing about Connor is, Angel finds out about him in less than happy circumstances, when a murderous Darla, whom he'd promised to kill if he ever saw her again, showed up. Connor's birth is not an unalloyed joyous miracle, it takes amidst blood, destruction, death. Not only Darla's. The Hyperion was attacked, and, when the gang went to use medical facilities, vampires attacked them again. Angel didn't have an opportunity to lose himself in the miracle of fatherhood the way he lost himself in the miracle of Buffy's love and acceptance made manifest when they consummated their relationship. So, as said above, my suspension of disbelief was stretched...but not broken.

What all this comes down to is yes, I think Angel could lose his soul again. With Buffy. Despite everything.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

It was needed with Cordelia because...Cordelia wasn't Buffy.

I felt that way too. I mean, circumstances in LA were really dire right then, so I could see that even if it had been Buffy he might not have lost his soul without all the Beast,Connor,&Wesley stuff that had come before hand. But I just do not think Cordy and Angel were at a point in their relationship just then when physical proof of their love would've caused him to lose his soul, and while I respect the ship and all I'm not sure I believe they would've ever gotten to that point.

Also not a big believer in the "Angel didn't know what loss was"

I do think that Angel had a certain measure of naivete and innocence when he met Buffy, but yeah, I agree. I mean, I see what people mean, because he'd never been in romantic love and he'd never had a son, but like you say, he has lost a whole lot, and he certainly knows grief.

But about his character changing on AtS: I totally think he did. AtS to me is all about Angel coming into his own.

Angel didn't have an opportunity to lose himself in the miracle of fatherhood the way he lost himself in the miracle of Buffy's love

You're right about the circumstances of Connor's birth being traumatic, but it seemed like Angel got a bit of a rest after that, in that really crappy dork!Angel section in the middle of S3. Lots of people don't like this part I think, but the part where Angel's making funny faces at Connor, and then vamps out, and Connor smiles...I can't see Angel thinking of anything in that moment but the sheer bliss of being with his child.

But eh, ME says no, so I'll buy your explanation ;o)

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Angel could lose his soul. It could happen when someone he loves comes back alive when he's expecting them to be dead. Grand children. Sex. Any number of things really.

Angel's as capable of being perfectly happy as he is of being perfectly unhappy, it's all a matter of circumstance and how tight a leash he has on his feelings.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Hey, that's exactly how I feel about it. Thanks for articulating it so well ;o)

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

I would have thought that the constant fear of losing his soul would prevent him ever having that moment again.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

Yeah, many people have mentioned that, and I can see that. Then again, Angel can't keep control of his feelings constantly--though as marenfic says, his ego is big enough to think he can.

[margotlefaye.livejournal.com]

As a total aside, must say how much I enjoy the thought-provoking posts you make in your LJ, even when I don't have time to chime in on the topics you raise.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

heh, thank you! It's really just that I'm a comment whore. No, really! I'm "unwilling to speak unless to say something that will impress the whole room"...well, not really impress, but most of the public posts I make I make because I want discussion, not to just hear myself talk. Figuratively speaking.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I think he could. I don't think it's very likely.

Thinking of the confluence of events in Surprise, it's not like everything in the world was going right for him at that moment. He had Buffy's love and trust and desire, yes. But he also had the Judge and Spike and Dru to worry about, plus the ongoing getting in the way of a Normal Life for Buffy angst, and all the guilt for his bad deeds. So clearly, not everything in Angel's life has to be resolved and perfect for him to lose the soul.

On the other hand, he could hold infant Connor and get him to stop crying and not lose the soul, so clearly even moments of great happiness are not sufficient.

To a certain extent, I just accept that the magic moves at the speed of the plot, and Angel's soul -- like Angel's strength -- varies with what the writers need it to be.

But fanwanking it into consistancy, I take as my keystone what Angelus said to Spike: "She made me feel human. That's not something you just forgive." I read that as saying that whatever it would take to lose his soul again, it wouldn't just be happiness, or even overwhelming happiness, it would have to be happiness that also made him feel human.

I'm not sure what it would take for that to happen now. Connor's wedding, maybe. Or Connor putting a grandson in his arms. I lean more towards something like that than another romantic love, partly because it's been done, partly because I think the fact that Buffy's out there somewhere tends to keep Angel from fully throwing himself into another romance with an innocent human girl to that same extent -- and the knowledge that he could hurt them, and that their love *can't* redeem him as much as it can damn him. Love with another demon/monster might be just as deep, but I don't think it would offer him that illusion of redemption. Which is why I feel safe in writing Spike/Angel without worrying about it -- no matter how much Angel came to love Spike, Spike is a reminder that Angel's not human and not innocent. But that doesn't mean nothing could do it.

You could do a very dark fic in which Angel gets the Shanshu and the moment of knowing he's getting it takes the soul away before it can take effect.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

To a certain extent, I just accept that the magic moves at the speed of the plot, and Angel's soul -- like Angel's strength -- varies with what the writers need it to be.

Oh yeah, that's certainly true!

it would have to be happiness that also made him feel human.

I like that point. Because the moment you point out--I think you're talking about the moment he got Connor to stop crying when he vamped out?--it must've made him happy, but you're right, he wouldn't have felt human, and perhaps the moment was bittersweet for him. Then again, I've always thought that it would make him even happier for someone to be able to accept him as a man and a vampire--like how in "Awakening" he needed Cordy to accept his whole past.

Which is why I feel safe in writing Spike/Angel without worrying about it -- no matter how much Angel came to love Spike, Spike is a reminder that Angel's not human and not innocent. But that doesn't mean nothing could do it.

That's one thing I love about S/A, period. It's not about twu lurve or perfect happiness or any of that, in my mind. It's about making due with what you have, perhaps coming to accept it and even coming to love it and treasure it.

You could do a very dark fic in which Angel gets the Shanshu and the moment of knowing he's getting it takes the soul away before it can take effect.

That's an interesting idea! I'd love to see that some day!

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Here via the herald.

I think as people have said that one reason that it's difficult for Angel to have a moment of true happiness is that Buffy wasn't the only one to lose her innocence in the episode of that name. Now that he knows the terms of the curse that worry is always going to be present.

With respect to not feeling it with baby Connor I think a big part of the Buffy moment was not being overwhelmed by his love for her but felt that she loved and accepted him in return. Acceptance/forgiveness was a very big component of his Awakening fantasy. A baby can't really give you that, it's really not the issue and you love them in spite of it but it's a different feeling. Of course Angel may have felt that Connor's mere existence meant that he was accepted by the Powers but that would make it a magic snow moment, metaphysically reassuring but not personal.

Another issue may be that Angel's feelings about Darla were various but at some level he's in the position of someone whose wife/partner has died in childbirth and that complicates things as well.

[tkp.livejournal.com]

With respect to not feeling it with baby Connor I think a big part of the Buffy moment was not being overwhelmed by his love for her but felt that she loved and accepted him in return. Acceptance/forgiveness was a very big component of his Awakening fantasy.

You're absolutely right; someone else mentioned that Angelus says Buffy made him feel human, and that she thought him feeling human was a component to his perfect happiness. But although I do feel like the "forgiveness" aspect is totally missing with him holding Connor in his arms, that moment when Angel vamps out and it gets Connor to smile and stop crying--that must've felt like acceptance.

he's in the position of someone whose wife/partner has died in childbirth and that complicates things as well.

True. I would think he'd be able to look at Connor eventually and not see the circumstances of the kid's birth, but it could certainly take some time.

Thanks for your thoughts!