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Angel and perfect happiness

Sometimes fandom, lj, and people are callous and strange. And confusing. But I love them lots. Again. Still.

Anyway, back to Important Issues.

I'm sure this has been discussed before (I know

a2zmom and I had a great discussion about it once), but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.

On the one hand, it seems unlikely Angel could lose his soul due to the curse again. Wesley points out that, "99.999-ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness" ("Smile Time", AtS, 5x14). He believes "perfect happiness" is something rare and virtually unattainable--like nirvana or enlightment? I guess, in Buddhism? Who knows.

Also, the episode "Awakening" (AtS, 4x10) suggests that "perfect happiness" can only arise from a confluence of events: LA must be safe from the latest threat, Wesley and Angel must come to an understanding, Connor and Angel must come to and understanding, Cordelia and Angel must not only come to and understanding and have sex, but Cordelia must claim she forgives him for his past, etc.

Even "Surprise" (BtVS, 2x13) can be seen in this light. I hope we can all agree Angel doesn't lose his soul there due to sex, but love. But one could argue it's not just the act of love, or even Buffy herself, or anything but again, a confluence of events that leads up to that moment. At this point, it seemed to me as though Angel believed he could love and have some measure of happiness, even if he also knew it was a foolish belief. Also, (and I think this was

a2zmom's argument, correct me if I'm wrong) he thinks he might be able to achieve some kind of atonement or forgiveness...perhaps not completely, but to some point where he can live with himself. He never seems to really believe either of those things again, but if he does then it makes sense that he loses his soul not due to just Buffy but some belief that in some way he's kinda forgiven.

Thus, it would seem logical to argue that so much has happened with Angel, particularly the loss of his son, etc, that perfect happiness would never really be possible.

On the other hand, I think it's possible that "perfect happiness" may not be everything at a certain time going right, or even most things. Look at the other side of the coin: many people have experienced despair so great they feel like ending their lives, but a lot of those people have a bunch of wonderful things going for them. Everything is not going wrong, but a few things or even just one big thing has made them feel their lives are not worth living. Is that "perfect despair"? I guess I would say so, though I can see arguments against it.

My thing is I feel like I've experienced perfect happiness, once or thrice in my life. It wasn't that everything was going right, or that might life at that point was what I wanted it to be. It was being with family or friends, and just feeling this...surge, as of joy or beauty or something so great it can't really be described except by the word love. And it only lasted a moment or two, but in those moments, I sincerely believe that nothing could've made me happier, not a million dollars, not the jobs of my dreams, not at last knowing the love of my life or whatever. Two seconds later, hell yeah, but in that moment, and one or two others in my life, I felt like my life wasn't perfect, but that I was feeling perfect happiness.

I think Angel could feel that. I think it's what he felt with Buffy. I think he felt like none of his issues with her resolved and that he was no good for her and that it wasn't going to work out and he could never atone, but in that moment it fell away and he was just perfectly happy in the moment. I don't think it could've happened with Cordy in S4 because too much other stuff was going on, but that doesn't mean he couldn't feel it with her or some other woman at some calmer point in his life.

My beef with that is he should've felt it with Connor in his arms. I still think that he would have, when Connor first said "dada" or "Dad" while not pointing a weapon at him. But anyway, I don't see the curse as a non-issue because he won't ever be perfectly happy again. I think it could be in the cards for him, depending on what happened post-NFA.

What do you think? Discuss, disagree, throw tomatoes, eat cheese, stare at your navel. Please.

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I agree that it could happen for Angel again, but I don't believe it will because I don't think Angel will let it. I think he will always want something more, and that desire--be it for forgiveness, love, Connor, a whole laundry list--will temper his future happiness. I think he can, and will, be happy in the future, but I think he's too jaded, too desperate for that one elusive it, to *fully* experience happiness again.

I don't think he can, either. I feel like the perfect happiness that he had, somewhat, sprung from his naivete. He hadn't experienced enough sorrow yet to *not* be able to achieve perfect happiness. Even if he were with Buffy after NFA, I doubt he would be able to achieve perfect happiness. He's gone through too much. Well - maybe eventually he would be able too, but it would be a long, long time after NFA.

I really can't ever see it happening without Connor being a part of his life. And yeah, I agree... he should have felt it the first time he held that little baby in his arms (and Holtz wasn't pointing a crossbow at them). The writers wanked it by saying "But it's not perfect happiness, because he worries about Connor and he's terrified that something might happen to him." And I can kind of see where this would be a nearly constant worry--hell, it's one of the big reasons I *don't* have children. But I never really bought the idea that Angel was never able to let it go, even for one euphoric instant. It just seemed too convenient.

Oh, and I should add that the curse was one of the stupidest, most Deus-ex-machina plot devices that Joss ever introduced, and while I loved the Angelus arc in BtVS S2, I hated the high-handed morality of it all. I mean, he just *happens* to go evil because he and Buffy have sex? Please, Joss. You can do better.

Hmm, feeling it with Connor in his arms? With people trying to kill him and steal his baby lingering in his mind? i'll respectfully disagree.

But I agree with the confluence of events theory. Example: Jasmine apparently made everyone happy. Angel didn't get lose his soul then.

(And I also think the writers added to the "history" of Angel's past as they went along, so S2 Buffy can't be all we go on, as you noted.)

*headdesk* Angel didn't LOSE his soul then. I like to add extra words that don't make sense for spice.

I'll just sip my Alka-Seltzer and burrow again, and leave the talk to the grownups.

I've wondered that about the Jasmine arc, why Angel didn't lose his soul then. Maybe because it was a false sense of happiness? A happiness with underlying malicious intent, in that Jasmine wanted to take away free will? If that is the case, does that point more toward the 'one single moment' theory rather than the confluence of events theory? I don't know. I haven't watched S4 in quite awhile so my memory is a bit dim regarding specific details, so I could be way off base.

I do agree with you about the baby Connor aspect. Connor was this unbelivable miracle for Angel, and I think that no matter how ecstatic he was over his son, he was as equally terrified and worried. Not only with the normal parental fears, but Connor was everything Angel had ever wanted--the ideal of family and love--and I believe his fear of damaging his child because of who he (Angel) is, was just as compelling in his mind as the danger of Holtz and W&H.

I think they totally fucked up the perfect happiness. If Connor-- who has been touted as Angel's Shanshu, as the love of his life-- can't make him perfectly happy then what could? With that in mind, I have to go with the "never again unless magically altered" camp.

More than that, I think how they set it up from the beginning is ridiculous. After Angel comes back from Hell, you have the story and the character telling us that if he can just avoid perfect happiness by constructing his life with a little misery and focusing on the brooding, then all is well. Angel can somehow control how happy he is at every single moment. That's so unbelievable to me (although believable that Angel would have the ego to think that's true). I think it would have been a more dramatic and powerful device if they'd really played up the idea that as long as Angel is in contact with humans and doing the things he needs to do to effectively fight for redemption, it's inevitable that he'll lose his soul. It's not a question of if, but when, and he has to work his ass off to do what he can while he's got it.

Also, and this is now just fanwaking, I think it would have made more sense/been more powerful in light of the other happenings on the show if there would have been some indication that his moments of perfect happiness were orchestrated by the Powers to serve a greater purpose. That they were deliberate, and allowed, and that Angel finds one day that he's a tool even when the soul is gone. It totally would have fucked with him, to know that even soulless he was playing a role and that as far as the universe is concerned, once he started putting it all on the line for the good fight it was all ok.

Thus, it would seem logical to argue that so much has happened with Angel, particularly the loss of his son, etc, that perfect happiness would never really be possible.

The problem, is that "perfect happiness" is a concept that utterly defies quantification. We can look back in retrospect, and try to desconstruct that moment in Surprise to figure out how and why that qualified. And look at other moments and determine why they didn't. But I don't think we can ever be sure.

I would say this much... that the likelihood is very low. But I do believe it's possible - that it happens once indicates that it can happen. The question is... weighing all the potential costs of him losing his soul over the next eternity vs. the low risk that it would happen... what is that worth and what does that mean in terms of judgements to be made about how he lives his life and how others interact with him.

Personally, I am a very risk-averse person, and I wouldn't want to gamble on it when the risk is peoples' lives. If I were in a position, I would be devoting a lot of down time into studying that curse and looking for ways to make sure it never triggered.

GAH. Discussing this with any acuity would involve me remembering BtVS episodes with much more clarity than I do. If I remember *correctly*, the idea of the "perfect happiness" resulting in the loss of Angel's soul and that PH = sex with Buffy is something that the Scoobies and Angel come up with through some interesting qualitative theory without any actual proof for their assumptions. It's passed off as canon in BtVS, but in actuality, we don't know for sure that it's the sex or the sex with Buffy or even that it's a factor of the gypsys' curse.

On AtS, the idea of Angel losing his soul through perfect happiness is much more convoluted, as is the idea of the soul as being containable and easily removed and/or re-inserted back into Angel's body. The soul on AtS is almost a piece of Mr. Angelpotatohead; watch out and it might accidentally end up in his eyesocket.

PH is obviously (now) much more than a boff with a blonde. Just ask Darla. Since sex is somehow involved and we agree that Connor should be somehow involved, I think that it's only logical that sex with Connor would do the trick.

You know, this is one of those things, like the whole BtVS/AtS concept of the "soul" to begin with, that they really dropped the ball on. Much as we have no idea what having a "soul" really means here, we don't really know what "perfect happiness" is. First off, this clause in the curse always seems like a convenient out for the authors, who needed to propel the storyline (in a wonderful direction, don't get me wrong) and didn't stop to think about why the gypsies would have let him "off the hook" just for forgetting he was naughty. What kind of punishment is that? It's more like a reward. Anyway, having set this up, the writers also had to deal with it the rest of the character's life, and I think this caused a lot of sloppiness when it came to how it all worked. I know I should be discussing this within the universe of the series, but it's really difficult for me to do that when the motives of the authors play such a big part in it. It's like trying to explain Mulder's sister within canon. Won't work.

I think the fact that Angel knows what can happen if he's perfectly happy is what will keep him from experiencing that feeling ever again. The only time in his life when he got to such a point and it wasn't artificial was prior to having this knowledge.

That's kinda my wank for why he didn't lose his soul while holding Connor in his arms, added to the fact that there were a whole shitload of psychopaths looking to kill his son.

The thing that bothers me more is what *Angel* thought about the curse. Did he really think that he could lose it with someone who wasn't Buffy? Did he think it was just the sex and that's why he was committing soul-suicide with Darla in Reprise?

Yeah, sure, it could happen. It would be harder because Angel knows now, but the thing about happiness is, it sneaks up on you. You don't sit there and plan it, you can't force it, but when you least expect it, blam! You're happy. And it can happen at the strangest times, for the strangest reasons.

(And yes, he SHOULD have felt it with Connor. Silly writers, orgasms are not the only means to joy!)

In Innocence, perfect happiness for Angel was described as being a moment, no matter how short, in which the soul that was meant to torture and haunt him no longer plagued his thoughts. One split second in which Angel completely forgot about his past as a demon. One split second in which he let himself live in and be taken over the moment at hand.

For S2 BtVS Angel, it was in Buffy's arms, having her complete and total acceptance and trust (in the form of her body), that he was able to achieve this moment. He had one moment of perfect happiness. He felt only good things about himself and his situation and his future. He didn't think of his past.

With baby Connor in his arms, Angel would be bombarded with the thoughts of the impossibility of Connor. He would, no doubt, be in awe of his child; but, he would, no doubt, be in awe of the fact that two vampires could have made said child. Thus his past was still on his mind; his conscience always weighing down on him. That's why, IMO, he did not achieve perfect happiness with Connor.

Do I think he is capable of acheiving it again? The answer is a resounding yes. Because no matter how scarred a person is, I must believe that there is something or someone that can help them forget it all. Maybe it will be a little harder for him to let himself get to that place, but I believe that that place still exists. And as a B/A shipper, I think that the potential still lies with Buffy, but then again, I am a B/A shipper. . .

Speaking as a male, perfect happiness is falling into untroubled sleep. Since this tends to be a rather convenient after affect of some quality sexing, I'm not surprised one might confuse the two.

See, I get the Angel not letting it, but I'm not sure I'm down with the him being to jaded and desperate to ever experience perfect happiness again. I guess I believe in a love (whether it be romantic, familial, or even just friendly) that can make that disappear for a second, you know? But yeah, I totally see what you're saying, and it makes sense. Also, it kinda makes sense that Angel couldn't be perfectly happy with the knowledge the perfect happiness sends him psycho. The knowledge is always there, whether he's thinking of it or not...

Hmm, I see what you mean. He definitely had a kind of innocence in "Surprise" that he can't ever regain.

But yeah, maybe far, far in the future post-NFA? *crosses fingers on him being alive*

*sniffles*

Yeah, I agree. I totally see him being worried over Connor, but to hear my mom describe it...she had a bunch of post-partum depression, didn't think she could take care of us etc etc (even though that made no sense, the thought was still there for her)--but then she talks about the moments when she'd look at us and just know we were hers (and my dad's) and that she loved us more than anything in the world...I can't believe that's not perfect happiness, just a shot of it.

Ah. *happy daughter sigh*

It doesn't really bother me. Yeah, it's high-handed morality, but I totally close my eyes to that and choose not to look at it metaphorically. And literally, it makes sense to me. The gyspsies had a spell to torture someone. As soon as the cursed one no longer feels tortured, the spell is no longer in effect. People say it's a stupid spell, but it makes sense to be that the gypsies didn't have enough power to bind his soul to him permanently, and that it could only be permanent if he earned it.

That's my fanwank ;o)

Well, but what I was saying was I felt Angel should have lost his soul then.

And I'll take your word for it, because you're the mom. But to hear my mom talk, her holding us in her arms was perfect happiness. And while she didn't have Angel's reasons to fear for us, she did have plenty of fears a normal mom and a mom with post-partum depression has. I just...the way some parents talk, especially my mom, makes it hard for me to think it wouldn't all fall away for him, just for one second, you know?

I think it would have been a more dramatic and powerful device if they'd really played up the idea that as long as Angel is in contact with humans and doing the things he needs to do to effectively fight for redemption, it's inevitable that he'll lose his soul. It's not a question of if, but when, and he has to work his ass off to do what he can while he's got it.

I'm not sure that would've worked for Angel's character though, especially before "Epiphany" in AtS S2, but even after that. See, my view of Angel is that if he thought it was inevitable he'd go soulless again if he kept being in contact with humans and fighting for redemption, he wouldn't remain with humans or fight for redemption. He doesn't think enough of what he's doing, the difference he's making, his place in the scheme of things, for him to believe what he does is worth risking Angelus. Completely imo, of course. He does have a super ego, but that ego more often, from what I can tell, convinces him he's mythically dangerous and worthless more often than mythically heroic and worthwhile.

That they were deliberate, and allowed, and that Angel finds one day that he's a tool even when the soul is gone.

Yeah, you're totally right. A while ago when I was talking about my dislike of the magic snow in "Amends", some people pointed out they liked it because it was all about how whatever powers out there are just cosmically jerking Angel's chain all the time, and that so makes sense. Angel's a tool and he hates it, and throwing that element in would make it that much worse.

I am a very risk-averse person, and I wouldn't want to gamble on it when the risk is peoples' lives. If I were in a position, I would be devoting a lot of down time into studying that curse and looking for ways to make sure it never triggered.

Angel's so ashamed of all the murders etc he committed that it surprises me that he, too, doesn't take more time to figure out the curse and try to make the soul permanent. I mean, he wouldn't be doing it for himself, but everybody else, and Angel likes to think he's doing things for the good of others.

Theorem. If PH = f(eyesocket)sex, and PH > Boffing A Blonde, then ∑_k=Connor ^sex Angel^k = PH, where sex = wild!monkey!sex!with!tenderness + the word daddy.

Proof. It's hot?

You = genius. Me = dork who forgot all her maths and is certain summation doesn't make sense there, but anyway, is laughing. her. ass. off. Seriously, behind me? No ass. Negative assness.

didn't stop to think about why the gypsies would have let him "off the hook" just for forgetting he was naughty.

My fanwank for it was always that the gypsies couldn't give a person his soul back, i.e., it can only be earned. So, what the gypsies had was not a curse to give him a soul, but a curse to torture him. As soon as he personally overcomes feeling tortured, the spell is no longer in effect. Kind of like a love spell that stops working once you've realized it's been cast because you realize you may not be really in love. So they just cast it and hoped Angelus was a guy with a capacity for huge guilt, and tried to follow him not because they always wanted him tortured (despite what Jenny's uncle says) but because they knew their spell had its failings.

Anyway, I still agree the writers were sloppy, and I understand what you say about it being difficult to discuss. As I think you witnessed I kinda have the same trouble with Spike and his soul, so yeah.

I think the fact that Angel knows what can happen if he's perfectly happy is what will keep him from experiencing that feeling ever again.

Makes sense.

Did he think it was just the sex and that's why he was committing soul-suicide with Darla in Reprise?

See, I personally never thought he had sex with Darla to lose his soul. Imo, he didn't give a fuck. Maybe the thought crossed his mind, but if it did, it wasn't "ok, let's go lose a soul" and more along the lines of "I could care less either way." To him, sleeping with Darla itself was soullessness, loss of a soul. She was soullessness, and he was doing it because him having a soul just made absolutely no difference in his life any more.

When he realized what he had done and it still wasn't going to change anything--not because he didn't lose his soul but because he lost it and it made no difference--he realized if nothing he did mattered he might as well be doing good just for the sake of it. And he does. *sniffle*

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