lettered | Angel and perfect happiness

Sometimes fandom, lj, and people are callous and strange. And confusing. But I love them lots. Again. Still.

Anyway, back to Important Issues.

I'm sure this has been discussed before (I know

a2zmom and I had a great discussion about it once), but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.

On the one hand, it seems unlikely Angel could lose his soul due to the curse again. Wesley points out that, "99.999-ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness" ("Smile Time", AtS, 5x14). He believes "perfect happiness" is something rare and virtually unattainable--like nirvana or enlightment? I guess, in Buddhism? Who knows.

Also, the episode "Awakening" (AtS, 4x10) suggests that "perfect happiness" can only arise from a confluence of events: LA must be safe from the latest threat, Wesley and Angel must come to an understanding, Connor and Angel must come to and understanding, Cordelia and Angel must not only come to and understanding and have sex, but Cordelia must claim she forgives him for his past, etc.

Even "Surprise" (BtVS, 2x13) can be seen in this light. I hope we can all agree Angel doesn't lose his soul there due to sex, but love. But one could argue it's not just the act of love, or even Buffy herself, or anything but again, a confluence of events that leads up to that moment. At this point, it seemed to me as though Angel believed he could love and have some measure of happiness, even if he also knew it was a foolish belief. Also, (and I think this was

a2zmom's argument, correct me if I'm wrong) he thinks he might be able to achieve some kind of atonement or forgiveness...perhaps not completely, but to some point where he can live with himself. He never seems to really believe either of those things again, but if he does then it makes sense that he loses his soul not due to just Buffy but some belief that in some way he's kinda forgiven.

Thus, it would seem logical to argue that so much has happened with Angel, particularly the loss of his son, etc, that perfect happiness would never really be possible.

On the other hand, I think it's possible that "perfect happiness" may not be everything at a certain time going right, or even most things. Look at the other side of the coin: many people have experienced despair so great they feel like ending their lives, but a lot of those people have a bunch of wonderful things going for them. Everything is not going wrong, but a few things or even just one big thing has made them feel their lives are not worth living. Is that "perfect despair"? I guess I would say so, though I can see arguments against it.

My thing is I feel like I've experienced perfect happiness, once or thrice in my life. It wasn't that everything was going right, or that might life at that point was what I wanted it to be. It was being with family or friends, and just feeling this...surge, as of joy or beauty or something so great it can't really be described except by the word love. And it only lasted a moment or two, but in those moments, I sincerely believe that nothing could've made me happier, not a million dollars, not the jobs of my dreams, not at last knowing the love of my life or whatever. Two seconds later, hell yeah, but in that moment, and one or two others in my life, I felt like my life wasn't perfect, but that I was feeling perfect happiness.

I think Angel could feel that. I think it's what he felt with Buffy. I think he felt like none of his issues with her resolved and that he was no good for her and that it wasn't going to work out and he could never atone, but in that moment it fell away and he was just perfectly happy in the moment. I don't think it could've happened with Cordy in S4 because too much other stuff was going on, but that doesn't mean he couldn't feel it with her or some other woman at some calmer point in his life.

My beef with that is he should've felt it with Connor in his arms. I still think that he would have, when Connor first said "dada" or "Dad" while not pointing a weapon at him. But anyway, I don't see the curse as a non-issue because he won't ever be perfectly happy again. I think it could be in the cards for him, depending on what happened post-NFA.

What do you think? Discuss, disagree, throw tomatoes, eat cheese, stare at your navel. Please.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

You know, this is one of those things, like the whole BtVS/AtS concept of the "soul" to begin with, that they really dropped the ball on. Much as we have no idea what having a "soul" really means here, we don't really know what "perfect happiness" is. First off, this clause in the curse always seems like a convenient out for the authors, who needed to propel the storyline (in a wonderful direction, don't get me wrong) and didn't stop to think about why the gypsies would have let him "off the hook" just for forgetting he was naughty. What kind of punishment is that? It's more like a reward. Anyway, having set this up, the writers also had to deal with it the rest of the character's life, and I think this caused a lot of sloppiness when it came to how it all worked. I know I should be discussing this within the universe of the series, but it's really difficult for me to do that when the motives of the authors play such a big part in it. It's like trying to explain Mulder's sister within canon. Won't work.

didn't stop to think about why the gypsies would have let him "off the hook" just for forgetting he was naughty.

My fanwank for it was always that the gypsies couldn't give a person his soul back, i.e., it can only be earned. So, what the gypsies had was not a curse to give him a soul, but a curse to torture him. As soon as he personally overcomes feeling tortured, the spell is no longer in effect. Kind of like a love spell that stops working once you've realized it's been cast because you realize you may not be really in love. So they just cast it and hoped Angelus was a guy with a capacity for huge guilt, and tried to follow him not because they always wanted him tortured (despite what Jenny's uncle says) but because they knew their spell had its failings.

Anyway, I still agree the writers were sloppy, and I understand what you say about it being difficult to discuss. As I think you witnessed I kinda have the same trouble with Spike and his soul, so yeah.

Keep in mind, though, that originally Angel's being sent to Acathla-hell was supposed to be the end of him, and in that case, the convolution of the gypsy curse didn't really matter; it was a plot device to turn him evil and worked well. It was only when they decided to spin him off into his own show, and thus had to bring him back for BtVS S3 to keep him under contract until they could develop Angel that they realized they were stuck with a stupid curse (and Joss has admitted that in interviews) which would have implications in the new show, also. That curse really came back to bite Joss in the ass!

Gotta admit that's a new one on me. I'd heard Joss say that it was during IOHEFY that he realized David could carry his own series, but never that the original plan was to kill off Angel, permanently. Can you point me in the direction of any of these interviews? I'd love to know what Joss was thinking. Given the huge popularity of the character at that time (not to mention the huge popularity of the B/A story during that time) that was an amazing risk to take.

I did have a copy of the article saved, but when the computer crashed in Dec. 2004, I lost everything. GrrrArrgh! But he said that as originally conceived, Angel was to be the big love interest in a tragic Romeo & Juliet way and (we all know how Joss likes to go for the relationship pain) so he thought the curse would be a perfect way to shock everyone with Angelus, but if he'd had any idea they'd be keeping the guy around, he'd have thought harder about the damn curse! During IOHEFY, when he realized that David could carry his own series, he had to scramble to bring DB back for S3 so they could keep him under contract until they got the spin-off up and running, but now that he'd made it so Buffy and Angel couldn't be together he was afraid S3 was going to be a let down after the great, doomed, epic love - he said something to the effect of 'what are they gonna do, make puppy dog eyes at each other all year?' but I don't remember the exact quote.

It's interesting that pretty much all of the vampires were originally supposed to be disposable, and yet they ended up keeping Angel, Dru and Spike for the run of both shows and bringing Darla back to life on AtS after killing her in BtVS. Never underestimate the power of a vampire. *g*

Except it didn't, because they didn't follow through. I mean, a few times the writers remembered the loophole in the curse and wrote around it, but most times they just plain forgot it existed.

The one thing that really drove me crazy was that some of the writers equated perfect happiness = sex with Buffy and others took a broader view. I had always thought that it wasn't 'the sex' that made him perfectly happy, but rather the thought that she loved and trusted him enough to want to have an intimate relationship and to bring him into her circle of friends, making him feel accepted and loved. Of course, she was very young, and couldn't really envision all of the terrible, twisted things he'd done as an unsouled vampire until he lost his soul and came after her and her friends.

Plus, the one person who had actually been around during Angelus' rampage was Cordelia, and she seemed to buy into the sex alone as the trigger so she influenced the others in LA. I always thought Cordy's initial understanding of the curse was similar to Harmony's simplistic understanding of the chip - when she told the Iniative surgeon that the chip meant Spike couldn't hurt any living theng and couldn't even pick a flower.

I'm not sure the writers equated perfect happiness with sex so much as the characters, like Cordelia. I think even Angel himself did to some extent, because after his experience with Buffy, love, forgiveness, sex, acceptance, humanity all got tied in together; they all culminated in sex and they all were equivalent to perfect happiness. I think it was hard for him to separate the act from the emotions.

But yeah, the writers were scrupulous about not letting him have mindless-pleasure-sex until S5, but they didn't seem as scrupulous about other ways he might experience perfect happiness.

That curse really came back to bite Joss in the ass!

Though, inasmuch as there was ass-biting, it's ultimately the fault of the writer. In a universe with magic, there is always some way to work around things if it's necessary.

Like the idea of a soul-losing curse seems idiotic. Who would plan that? Answer - vengeful gypsies who care more about making him feel miserable (and making miserable anyone who would dare to love him) more than they care about justice or practicality. Or maybe it was an idiotic spell, but that was the best the Gypsies could do.

Or if you don't want to mine what the curse means to the character for significant plot points, you can always magic it away. (I.E. Sometime during AtS3, they find out Willow's spell was different and the loophole isn't there anymore. Or some other random Gypsy 'fixes' it. Or W&H gives him a fix because they don't want to see Angelus - just like Lilah gave him the permits when Gavin was plotting to wreck Angel through the Tort system.

The lousy thing ME did was whistle past the curse when it was a significant plot issue in S3 -- no one specifically bringing the curse up during the Baby Connor arc, or when Lorne and Fred were playing matchmaker with Angel and Cordy... Good writers find ways to work with (or around, if necessary) what they've got.

Or maybe it was an idiotic spell, but that was the best the Gypsies could do.

That's my fanwank: a soul can only be permanently attached if its earned. The gypsies made do with what they had.

Or some other random Gypsy 'fixes' it.

I love this idea. I feel like they could've done SO much with the gypsy thread, but never did. That would've been so cool.

during the Baby Connor arc, or when Lorne and Fred were playing matchmaker with Angel and Cordy... Good writers find ways to work with (or around, if necessary) what they've got.

Mid-S3 is evidence that the good writers were inhabited by whoever thought of the polar bears on "LOST".

Angel and perfect happiness

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject