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Angel and perfect happiness
Sometimes fandom, lj, and people are callous and strange. And confusing. But I love them lots. Again. Still.
Anyway, back to Important Issues.
I'm sure this has been discussed before (I know![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
a2zmom and I had a great discussion about it once), but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.
On the one hand, it seems unlikely Angel could lose his soul due to the curse again. Wesley points out that, "99.999-ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness" ("Smile Time", AtS, 5x14). He believes "perfect happiness" is something rare and virtually unattainable--like nirvana or enlightment? I guess, in Buddhism? Who knows.
Also, the episode "Awakening" (AtS, 4x10) suggests that "perfect happiness" can only arise from a confluence of events: LA must be safe from the latest threat, Wesley and Angel must come to an understanding, Connor and Angel must come to and understanding, Cordelia and Angel must not only come to and understanding and have sex, but Cordelia must claim she forgives him for his past, etc.
Even "Surprise" (BtVS, 2x13) can be seen in this light. I hope we can all agree Angel doesn't lose his soul there due to sex, but love. But one could argue it's not just the act of love, or even Buffy herself, or anything but again, a confluence of events that leads up to that moment. At this point, it seemed to me as though Angel believed he could love and have some measure of happiness, even if he also knew it was a foolish belief. Also, (and I think this wasa2zmom's argument, correct me if I'm wrong) he thinks he might be able to achieve some kind of atonement or forgiveness...perhaps not completely, but to some point where he can live with himself. He never seems to really believe either of those things again, but if he does then it makes sense that he loses his soul not due to just Buffy but some belief that in some way he's kinda forgiven.
Thus, it would seem logical to argue that so much has happened with Angel, particularly the loss of his son, etc, that perfect happiness would never really be possible.
On the other hand, I think it's possible that "perfect happiness" may not be everything at a certain time going right, or even most things. Look at the other side of the coin: many people have experienced despair so great they feel like ending their lives, but a lot of those people have a bunch of wonderful things going for them. Everything is not going wrong, but a few things or even just one big thing has made them feel their lives are not worth living. Is that "perfect despair"? I guess I would say so, though I can see arguments against it.
My thing is I feel like I've experienced perfect happiness, once or thrice in my life. It wasn't that everything was going right, or that might life at that point was what I wanted it to be. It was being with family or friends, and just feeling this...surge, as of joy or beauty or something so great it can't really be described except by the word love. And it only lasted a moment or two, but in those moments, I sincerely believe that nothing could've made me happier, not a million dollars, not the jobs of my dreams, not at last knowing the love of my life or whatever. Two seconds later, hell yeah, but in that moment, and one or two others in my life, I felt like my life wasn't perfect, but that I was feeling perfect happiness.
I think Angel could feel that. I think it's what he felt with Buffy. I think he felt like none of his issues with her resolved and that he was no good for her and that it wasn't going to work out and he could never atone, but in that moment it fell away and he was just perfectly happy in the moment. I don't think it could've happened with Cordy in S4 because too much other stuff was going on, but that doesn't mean he couldn't feel it with her or some other woman at some calmer point in his life.
My beef with that is he should've felt it with Connor in his arms. I still think that he would have, when Connor first said "dada" or "Dad" while not pointing a weapon at him. But anyway, I don't see the curse as a non-issue because he won't ever be perfectly happy again. I think it could be in the cards for him, depending on what happened post-NFA.
What do you think? Discuss, disagree, throw tomatoes, eat cheese, stare at your navel. Please.
Anyway, back to Important Issues.
I'm sure this has been discussed before (I know
a2zmom and I had a great discussion about it once), but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.On the one hand, it seems unlikely Angel could lose his soul due to the curse again. Wesley points out that, "99.999-ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness" ("Smile Time", AtS, 5x14). He believes "perfect happiness" is something rare and virtually unattainable--like nirvana or enlightment? I guess, in Buddhism? Who knows.
Also, the episode "Awakening" (AtS, 4x10) suggests that "perfect happiness" can only arise from a confluence of events: LA must be safe from the latest threat, Wesley and Angel must come to an understanding, Connor and Angel must come to and understanding, Cordelia and Angel must not only come to and understanding and have sex, but Cordelia must claim she forgives him for his past, etc.
Even "Surprise" (BtVS, 2x13) can be seen in this light. I hope we can all agree Angel doesn't lose his soul there due to sex, but love. But one could argue it's not just the act of love, or even Buffy herself, or anything but again, a confluence of events that leads up to that moment. At this point, it seemed to me as though Angel believed he could love and have some measure of happiness, even if he also knew it was a foolish belief. Also, (and I think this was
a2zmom's argument, correct me if I'm wrong) he thinks he might be able to achieve some kind of atonement or forgiveness...perhaps not completely, but to some point where he can live with himself. He never seems to really believe either of those things again, but if he does then it makes sense that he loses his soul not due to just Buffy but some belief that in some way he's kinda forgiven.Thus, it would seem logical to argue that so much has happened with Angel, particularly the loss of his son, etc, that perfect happiness would never really be possible.
On the other hand, I think it's possible that "perfect happiness" may not be everything at a certain time going right, or even most things. Look at the other side of the coin: many people have experienced despair so great they feel like ending their lives, but a lot of those people have a bunch of wonderful things going for them. Everything is not going wrong, but a few things or even just one big thing has made them feel their lives are not worth living. Is that "perfect despair"? I guess I would say so, though I can see arguments against it.
My thing is I feel like I've experienced perfect happiness, once or thrice in my life. It wasn't that everything was going right, or that might life at that point was what I wanted it to be. It was being with family or friends, and just feeling this...surge, as of joy or beauty or something so great it can't really be described except by the word love. And it only lasted a moment or two, but in those moments, I sincerely believe that nothing could've made me happier, not a million dollars, not the jobs of my dreams, not at last knowing the love of my life or whatever. Two seconds later, hell yeah, but in that moment, and one or two others in my life, I felt like my life wasn't perfect, but that I was feeling perfect happiness.
I think Angel could feel that. I think it's what he felt with Buffy. I think he felt like none of his issues with her resolved and that he was no good for her and that it wasn't going to work out and he could never atone, but in that moment it fell away and he was just perfectly happy in the moment. I don't think it could've happened with Cordy in S4 because too much other stuff was going on, but that doesn't mean he couldn't feel it with her or some other woman at some calmer point in his life.
My beef with that is he should've felt it with Connor in his arms. I still think that he would have, when Connor first said "dada" or "Dad" while not pointing a weapon at him. But anyway, I don't see the curse as a non-issue because he won't ever be perfectly happy again. I think it could be in the cards for him, depending on what happened post-NFA.
What do you think? Discuss, disagree, throw tomatoes, eat cheese, stare at your navel. Please.
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Beauty is my favorite too, followed closely by The Blue Sword and The Hero and the Crown (which I usually read together so they seem like one book). I really love Deerskin too. That is such a powerful story, and seems rather different from the others because the subject matter is so much more painful. It almost belongs in a different category altogether, I think.
Were you as surprised as I was to see McKinley redoing the Beauty and the Beast story in Rose Daughter? It wasn't very memorable compared to Beauty, I thought.
Do you read other fantasy novelists? Patricia McKillip comes to mind.
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I never like tHatC as much as TBS; I don't know why. I suppose I have a fangirly love for Corlath I don't feel for Luke or Tor.
Yeah, I was really surprised by Rose Daughter, and was actually rather horrified. I kind of hated it. It's probably not that bad by itself, but next to Beauty it was just...not very good at all, imo.
I used to read a whole lot of fantasy, but I gave up somewhere in the middle of one of those Robert Jordan type series that just seemed to keep going on and on with the bad writing and stupid plots. I've heard great things about Patricia McKillip, and did read her trilogy "Riddle-master". I liked it pretty well, and I've always meant to read more. Any specific recommendations? I've also heard great things about Tanith Lee and have meant to try her also.
My other favorite fantasy author besides McKinley is Guy Gavril Kay. If you haven't read him, I highly recommend that you do.
no subject
Yes, I love him, and one of my fondest SF con memories is of a talk he gave about the Arthurian legend roots of his Fionavar tapestry novels. So erudite. Another author with a similar sense of depth (depth of knowledge of history, depth of roots into legend and literature) but very different writing style is John Crowley. Little, Big is a novel that I get very emotional about. I just love it so much.
Patricia McKillip is not a big series writer. The "Riddle Master" series was a departure for her in that it was a trilogy. That being said, it's my favorite of her works. Others that I like are Forgotten Beasts of Eld (one of her oldest), In the Forests of Serre, and Song for the Basilisk. These are all stand-alones. There are others, but those are a few titles that I can throw your way.
I'm currently reading the last book of a very good trilogy by Jonathan Stroud. The Bartimaeus Trilogy, it's called. Very good, original stuff. First book is The Amulet of Samarkand.
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Anyway, speaking of cons, have you been to Bright Weavings? GGK sometimes talks to the denizens of the forum there, and there always seemed to be plans to meet and have drinks with him before the Canadian cons. He seems like such a cool guy.
Thanks for the recs on Crowley, McKillip, and Stroud.
On series writers: I've actually only read one Robert Jordan; it was so disgustingly boring I could not bring myself to continue. The series writer who made me stop reading fantasy altogether was Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series--I've just read so many series stories like that, and they were beginning to get on my nerves. I enjoyed The Dragonbone Chair series by Tad Williams, but his Otherland series was disgustingly Robert Jordan-like as far as pacing. (though the nice thing about Williams is there's always an end in site) I loved "The Sword of Shannara" by Terry Brooks, and also several of the series immediately after that, like Elfstones and Elfqueen, but everything he's done sense is just more of the same crap. I've heard similar things about George RR Martin as I've heard about Jordan and experienced with Goodkind, but enough people have recced him to me now that I'm definitely going to give him a shot. So, thanks for the heads up!
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An actually *good* series (unfinished, though) is George R. R. Martin's, beginning with A Game of Thrones. It's what Robert Jordan wanted to write but couldn't if he tried for a million years.