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Let's talk about word choice.
Once upon a time there was a wank on it, but for the life of me I can't remember what the life threatening issues were (it might've been something about tentacles and Hermione), or I'd link it for your snorting things up your nose pleasure (within was the link to THE most HI-larious bad!fic I have EVER read). But wanks come around about every 7 months, 4 days, and 3.2 hours, so don't worry your noggins, kids; you'll be seeing it soon enough. Anyway, we are only concerned with the end result, which was really nothing like the following, but it's how most wanks end up looking to me, so here you go:
Person With Anime Name A: *mocks* The words you use are too big for your fics!
Person With Clever Apathetic Phrase For Name B: You just aren't smart enough to read me! [*is emo*]
FANDOM_WANK: Person With Anime Name A's wee!vocabulary! *mockety-mock*
FANDOM_WANK: Shitmanfuck, Person A's one of ours!
Person A: Yes, the words Person B uses sound too intellectual for the average intellect of her fic, mock her, mock her!
FANDOM_WANK: Wait, we're mocking people who use big words now?
FANDOM_WANK: OMG, WHAT ARE WE MOCKING? LET'S GET IT STRAIGHT, PEOPLE!
FANDOM_WANK: Or not. *mock mock mocking*, which occasionally ends in smocking, after which we all end up with cute little pinafores.
[Transcriber's Note: was that a place for emo? Did I get it right?]
So anyway the wank is not the point; the point isn't even those crazy kids at F_W, nor even their smocking needles.
The point is word choice. I felt like poking Person A with a firm needle of repartee (© Jane Eyre omg!), but I actually knew what Person A meant. Every once in a while I'll be reading a fic and I'll stumble onto a word--a word that isn't necessarily uncommon, but a word that makes me say, "Oh. I just know Author had her thesaurus out for this one," and not in a "what a way to flex your vocab" way, but in a "that was completely unnecessary; she should've used a simpler word" way. That is, the word, which wouldn't've caused me to bat an eyelash in a more sophisticated piece, draws attention like a sore thumb because the rest of the piece (conceptually, structurally, grammatically, whatever) doesn't quite...live up to the occasional bursts of elevated vocabulary.
I think it happens a lot with new writers and especially young writers and also bad writers. Some people with a smaller vocabulary might be deciding to spice up their piece with a couple of words they either a) don't know, b) understand but aren't familiar with how to use, c) rarely hear or see. The result might be a relatively even tone, voice, style of the piece, until you get to those particular words. Again, they might not be particularly complex or unusual words, just words that stand out as a little more...advanced than the rest.
But I use the thesaurus ALL THE TIME, and not just when I can't think of a word...I use it when I want to find a word with a certain flavor, and sometimes the word I choose is also "more advanced" than the word I would've chosen on my own. Also, I freely admit that I am one of those writers who has a small vocabulary and tries to spice up her writing with a thesaurus and words I might not normally use in ordinary conversation. In one fic I actually used words that I did not know (something I'd never done before. I looked them up in the dictionary and then googled around to see how they were used in various sentences before I used them, but before that, I had had no clue what the words meant).
The thing is, I think it's possible to use a word you didn't know before, or hadn't used before, or have rarely see, and not have it feel out of place, not have it break the style, tone, voice etc. What I really want to ask is, "how does one achieve this?" But I really already have my answer: I read and weigh and experiment and pick the word that feels right to me. Sometimes it's the common word I came up with right off the bat; sometimes it's the word in the thesaurus I might know but wouldn't have lighted on in weeks of thinking, sometimes it's even a word I'm a little uncertain of and have to go double-check the meaning of before I use it (and that one time, it was words I didn't know at all!)
But what I'm interested in is the attitudes towards this. Do you use a thesaurus, how much, do you like using it, does it feel like cheating, do you only use it because you can't *think* of a word, or do you use it because you have a word you could use but it just doesn't have the right flavor? Do you ever hold off on using the thesaurus because you feel it might stilt your speech? Do you use a thesaurus on purpose to stilt your speech? Do you use words you're uncertain of, or don't know? Do you ever pull back from using a word because you feel it's something whoever's reading might not know, even though it's a word is something you feel like you might use in everyday conversation? Have you ever had it happen that someone says, "Whoa, showing off your vocab!" when you used a word you thought was pretty common? Do you ever use a word *expecting* that most won't know what it means?
(When you read fanfic, do you ever come across words you don't know? Do you ever go look them up afterwards?)
All the above was just supposed to be one point under the general idea of "word choice," but I had difficulty expressing myself, sorry. I wish someone very clever would come in after me and boil these big posts down to three neat little four-lined paragraphs, because I'm way too lazy to do it.)
One of the questions I have relates to my last question about research: what about word research? How often do you research just looking for a specific word? I mentioned my plate episode, when I wanted to find another word for "ceramic" to reference what the plate is made of. Do people often go hunting for such specific words? And if you were going to write a fic with say, a big medical problem in it, is learning lots of vocabulary along the way something you do? And would you use the words you learned in the fic, even if most people wouldn't know their meanings?
Also, how concerned are you with word choice? Do you just write whatever comes out of you; do you do that but then go back to replace some words with better words, do you end "settling" when you can't find the exact word you want, how long do you hunt for the proper words?
I'm just interested in how writers approach the words they use. Which when you think about it, is really the most basic thing to writing there is, which is maybe why I have so many questions but am finding it difficult to state my point succinctly. I'd love to hear anyone's and everyone's thoughts on it.
Person With Anime Name A: *mocks* The words you use are too big for your fics!
Person With Clever Apathetic Phrase For Name B: You just aren't smart enough to read me! [*is emo*]
FANDOM_WANK: Person With Anime Name A's wee!vocabulary! *mockety-mock*
FANDOM_WANK: Shitmanfuck, Person A's one of ours!
Person A: Yes, the words Person B uses sound too intellectual for the average intellect of her fic, mock her, mock her!
FANDOM_WANK: Wait, we're mocking people who use big words now?
FANDOM_WANK: OMG, WHAT ARE WE MOCKING? LET'S GET IT STRAIGHT, PEOPLE!
FANDOM_WANK: Or not. *mock mock mocking*, which occasionally ends in smocking, after which we all end up with cute little pinafores.
[Transcriber's Note: was that a place for emo? Did I get it right?]
So anyway the wank is not the point; the point isn't even those crazy kids at F_W, nor even their smocking needles.
The point is word choice. I felt like poking Person A with a firm needle of repartee (© Jane Eyre omg!), but I actually knew what Person A meant. Every once in a while I'll be reading a fic and I'll stumble onto a word--a word that isn't necessarily uncommon, but a word that makes me say, "Oh. I just know Author had her thesaurus out for this one," and not in a "what a way to flex your vocab" way, but in a "that was completely unnecessary; she should've used a simpler word" way. That is, the word, which wouldn't've caused me to bat an eyelash in a more sophisticated piece, draws attention like a sore thumb because the rest of the piece (conceptually, structurally, grammatically, whatever) doesn't quite...live up to the occasional bursts of elevated vocabulary.
I think it happens a lot with new writers and especially young writers and also bad writers. Some people with a smaller vocabulary might be deciding to spice up their piece with a couple of words they either a) don't know, b) understand but aren't familiar with how to use, c) rarely hear or see. The result might be a relatively even tone, voice, style of the piece, until you get to those particular words. Again, they might not be particularly complex or unusual words, just words that stand out as a little more...advanced than the rest.
But I use the thesaurus ALL THE TIME, and not just when I can't think of a word...I use it when I want to find a word with a certain flavor, and sometimes the word I choose is also "more advanced" than the word I would've chosen on my own. Also, I freely admit that I am one of those writers who has a small vocabulary and tries to spice up her writing with a thesaurus and words I might not normally use in ordinary conversation. In one fic I actually used words that I did not know (something I'd never done before. I looked them up in the dictionary and then googled around to see how they were used in various sentences before I used them, but before that, I had had no clue what the words meant).
The thing is, I think it's possible to use a word you didn't know before, or hadn't used before, or have rarely see, and not have it feel out of place, not have it break the style, tone, voice etc. What I really want to ask is, "how does one achieve this?" But I really already have my answer: I read and weigh and experiment and pick the word that feels right to me. Sometimes it's the common word I came up with right off the bat; sometimes it's the word in the thesaurus I might know but wouldn't have lighted on in weeks of thinking, sometimes it's even a word I'm a little uncertain of and have to go double-check the meaning of before I use it (and that one time, it was words I didn't know at all!)
But what I'm interested in is the attitudes towards this. Do you use a thesaurus, how much, do you like using it, does it feel like cheating, do you only use it because you can't *think* of a word, or do you use it because you have a word you could use but it just doesn't have the right flavor? Do you ever hold off on using the thesaurus because you feel it might stilt your speech? Do you use a thesaurus on purpose to stilt your speech? Do you use words you're uncertain of, or don't know? Do you ever pull back from using a word because you feel it's something whoever's reading might not know, even though it's a word is something you feel like you might use in everyday conversation? Have you ever had it happen that someone says, "Whoa, showing off your vocab!" when you used a word you thought was pretty common? Do you ever use a word *expecting* that most won't know what it means?
(When you read fanfic, do you ever come across words you don't know? Do you ever go look them up afterwards?)
All the above was just supposed to be one point under the general idea of "word choice," but I had difficulty expressing myself, sorry. I wish someone very clever would come in after me and boil these big posts down to three neat little four-lined paragraphs, because I'm way too lazy to do it.)
One of the questions I have relates to my last question about research: what about word research? How often do you research just looking for a specific word? I mentioned my plate episode, when I wanted to find another word for "ceramic" to reference what the plate is made of. Do people often go hunting for such specific words? And if you were going to write a fic with say, a big medical problem in it, is learning lots of vocabulary along the way something you do? And would you use the words you learned in the fic, even if most people wouldn't know their meanings?
Also, how concerned are you with word choice? Do you just write whatever comes out of you; do you do that but then go back to replace some words with better words, do you end "settling" when you can't find the exact word you want, how long do you hunt for the proper words?
I'm just interested in how writers approach the words they use. Which when you think about it, is really the most basic thing to writing there is, which is maybe why I have so many questions but am finding it difficult to state my point succinctly. I'd love to hear anyone's and everyone's thoughts on it.
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Thesausus? I think I use that Firefox plug-in more than Google. I have a pretty big active vocabulary, but I also lose words on the tip of my tongue ALL THE TIME, so off I go because I know there's a good one for audacious that starts with "b" ... brazen! Ha! Ooh, ballsy, bantam, bold, brash, brassy ... temerarious? Cool.
Yes, I used thesausus.com to write this comment. Or, well, actually, I already had the window open because I am presently fussing with a short story about a very audacious young lady.
In my fiction, I choose words for sound as well as interest, but I'm very conscious that the little ones are popular for a reason. Thou shalt not use long words when diminutive ones shall suffice. Much of my editing is weeding -- of whimsical adjectives, flights of alliteration and punning that give me pleasure by themselves, but gum up the story as a whole. Your comment is astute: that stuff has to be earned; you have to make sure your story is strong enough to carry it.
Graceful simplicity is what happens when a writer is experienced enough to be able play the word games, but confident enough to know when to stop.
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Transcriber's Note: was that a place for emo? Did I get it right?
Yup.
Do you ever pull back from using a word because you feel it's something whoever's reading might not know
Heck, no. I presume my audience is smarter than I am.
Do you ever use a word *expecting* that most won't know what it means?
I figured I'd send a few people scampering off to a dictionary when I used "terpsichorean" last fall. But I also figured it was placed well enough in the text that general meaning would be evident, and nobody's read horribly disrupted.
When you read fanfic, do you ever come across words you don't know? Do you ever go look them up afterwards?
Yes, and double yes.
Do you just write whatever comes out of you
Yes, but it won't come out until it's marginally pretty, unless I absolutely force it.
do you do that but then go back to replace some words with better words
I always have to do a run-through to get rid of duplicates. Somebody peers at somebody in one paragraph, and then there they are peering again two paragraphs later. It's really bizarre which words get stuck to my fingers.
do you end "settling" when you can't find the exact word you want, how long do you hunt for the proper words?
Occasionally. There's a nasty duplication in the second-to-last paragraph of my post-NFA Spuffy fluffbit, and I still go back now and then to see if I can solve it. Two years from now I'll snap my fingers and go, "Of course!"
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Did you know that word before you used it? And dude, I don't even remember seeing it, although I too almost always look up the words I don't know.
Yes, but it won't come out until it's marginally pretty, unless I absolutely force it.
This is interesting to me, because as soon as my pen touches paper, or fingers the keyboard, it all comes tumbling out, pretty or unpretty unlike. It's only when I'm utterly fixated on making every single word perfectly pretty that it doesn't come out like water.
I always have to do a run-through to get rid of duplicates. Somebody peers at somebody in one paragraph, and then there they are peering again two paragraphs later. It's really bizarre which words get stuck to my fingers.
I was thinking about this when I was compiling all the posts I wanted to do about writing, but I didn't know when to bring it up. I guess on this one would've been good! What's most amusing to me is when I see a published author doing this--so obviously stuck on a word, and so obviously not even noticing it. I tend to use "flatly" and "blankly" way too often to modify the word "said." And isn't excessive adverbage a no no? Oh, maybe that's another post.
Two years from now I'll snap my fingers and go, "Of course!"
Ha! That is how I write poetry. I have a poem I have been writing for 7.5 years now.
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Did you know that word before you used it?
Yup, it shows up in a poem by T.S. Eliot or Edward Lear or somebody.
And isn't excessive adverbage a no no?
Hogwash. I've been compiling a Word file called Found Writing Tips, and one of my favourites is from
I have a poem I have been writing for 7.5 years now.
{g} I have some original stories like that. I've learned to be philosophical: Now is not its time; and yet its time will come!
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And anyone familiar with the Muses would know the word, of course.
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Far be it from me to dispute
Certainly, there are some who say the less adjectives and adverbs the better. I agree, they're full of shit. However, I think the general...uh, prejudice? (should turn to the thesaurus now but WHATEVER) against them has arisen from the tendency of young/new/bad writers to use five adjectives when one more-to-the-point one would've sufficed, or to use an adverb when a sharper, stronger, more active verb would've been enough.
In The Idiot, Dostoevsky uses adverbs a lot to describe how the main character says or acts, and it often comes at the end of the sentences (which is possibly my translation). Still, the result is one of surprise; the character makes a remark that you read as sarcasm, but it turns out he has said it sincerely--the character is continually turning the dime on expectation this way.
An example, anyway, of how important something like an adverb can be . . . it would just be difficult to pull that kind of thing off in such a regular way, the way Dostoevsky did in that novel. I've tried it myself and the reaction with most people I showed the piece to was . . . "why were the adverbs so funky?" Ha!
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I use a thesaurus (actually I mostly use a synonym finder, which is slightly different) constantly, because I'm always on the search for the perfect word. Not necessarily the unusual word or the bigger word, but the word that's just right for that character to use at that moment. And depending on which character I'm dealing with, this can be very challenging. Obviously Fred or Wes or Giles would describe things with different words than Buffy or Xander or Gunn. And Angel, because of his age, would have an even wider vocabulary, that's occasionally the slightest bit old-fashioned sounding.
Because I'm still obsessed with this Firefly fic I'm writing, and because I'm finding it especially challenging to choose the right words, I'll use it as an example. Mal's vocabulary isn't particularly advanced--he hasn't had a lot of schooling--but because the series uses a lot of rustic and archaic words, a lot of his vocabulary is unusual to me. And one of Mal's character traits is that he strings words together in beautiful and creative ways. River's not crazy, she's "whimsical in the brainpan." So I've been spending a lot of quality time with my thesaurus trying to come up with quirky combinations of words with just the right flavor so that anyone reading it would instantly know that it's Mal's voice I'm writing in.
So, yeah, if a word's out of place in your writing, it's out of place. It doesn't matter if it's too "big" or too simple, if it's not the right word, it's going to stick out like sore thumb.
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Yes, I had planned on mentioning the idea of vocabulary as related to character. Which is a whole 'nother ballpark, imo. In that case, the author isn't worried about word choices as it relates to the audience, and the idea of blending any and every word into an over-all style isn't really so independent from characterization. In first person, or extremely close limited third, word choice IS characterization, whereas in omnicient or much more distant limited third, and sometimes second person, that's not the case.
One reason why I, and I think a lot of writers, really enjoy limited third is you can change that distance--you can write a really close third in which the narrator is speaking just as the character would, and in the same piece you can pull back the camera and speaking in a much more omnicient tone. I've had the problem of wanting to use a word the character I'm writing wouldn't use, and wondering if it will still jerk the reader around if I use it in a section when I'm using a limited third very distant to the character, as a opposed to a section elsewhere in the piece where the third is much closer.
I use a thesaurus (actually I mostly use a synonym finder, which is slightly different)
What is the difference? I have a book that calls itself a synonym dictionary...it's helpful because it describes the nuances in meaning, but there are so many less words to choose from, it's really only helpful when trying to determine the exact difference in meaning of two words.
Mal's vocabulary isn't particularly advanced
One thing I find interesting about all the FF characters is how every once in a while they'll slip in a word that's far more sophisticated than you'd expect them to use...and how well that works, and how humorous it can be. But I sometimes think it's the actors who made that element work, not the writing. When I come across Jayne tossing off a more advanced word in fic I'm less likely to believe it than if it was actually coming out of Baldwin's mouth.
Another thing is, there were sometimes, for me, when even the actors couldn't pull it off and the dialogue just sounded weird and stilted.
River's not crazy, she's "whimsical in the brainpan."
I wish more writers would write her that way!
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Speaking of vocabulary, active, that's a good word. I have at best a decent vocabulary, but what's frustrating to me is the range of it really isn't at my finger-tips. I use what I consider to be a very small range of words in conversation. The thesaurus often seems to be my only access to words I know but for some reason can't call to mind, and rarely use.
Yes, I used thesausus.com to write this comment.
Heh. I used it to write the post.
Your comment is astute: that stuff has to be earned; you have to make sure your story is strong enough to carry it.
Speaking of graceful simplicity, how many jumbled paragraphs did I use to come to that conclusion? ;o)
Graceful simplicity is what happens when a writer is experienced enough to be able play the word games, but confident enough to know when to stop.
Nice way of putting it and yeah, the latter is totally my biggest problem in writing, as you've alluded to in a comment or two on some of my fic.
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Nice way of putting it and yeah, the latter is totally my biggest problem in writing, as you've alluded to in a comment or two on some of my fic.
Ah, but your prose is crazy for interesting and well-considered reasons, not to try and impress people with your thesaurus-wrangling. I don't think your control is perfect (jeepers, neither is mine, and I haven't attempted a fraction of the rodeo acts you have), but I think it's pretty special. You're going places.
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Yup, that's what I'd assumed.
Ah, but your prose is crazy for interesting and well-considered reasons, not to try and impress people with your thesaurus-wrangling. I don't think your control is perfect (jeepers, neither is mine, and I haven't attempted a fraction of the rodeo acts you have), but I think it's pretty special. You're going places.
Thank you! Well, I'm starting to believe that anything in text is possible if there is enough reason behind it. But it's very easy to get distracted by pretty fireworks and tricks until the purpose behind them goes to pot. The end result is disinterested (or sometimes singed!) spectators. Everything in its course, I guess.
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