![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
Let's talk about word choice.
Once upon a time there was a wank on it, but for the life of me I can't remember what the life threatening issues were (it might've been something about tentacles and Hermione), or I'd link it for your snorting things up your nose pleasure (within was the link to THE most HI-larious bad!fic I have EVER read). But wanks come around about every 7 months, 4 days, and 3.2 hours, so don't worry your noggins, kids; you'll be seeing it soon enough. Anyway, we are only concerned with the end result, which was really nothing like the following, but it's how most wanks end up looking to me, so here you go:
Person With Anime Name A: *mocks* The words you use are too big for your fics!
Person With Clever Apathetic Phrase For Name B: You just aren't smart enough to read me! [*is emo*]
FANDOM_WANK: Person With Anime Name A's wee!vocabulary! *mockety-mock*
FANDOM_WANK: Shitmanfuck, Person A's one of ours!
Person A: Yes, the words Person B uses sound too intellectual for the average intellect of her fic, mock her, mock her!
FANDOM_WANK: Wait, we're mocking people who use big words now?
FANDOM_WANK: OMG, WHAT ARE WE MOCKING? LET'S GET IT STRAIGHT, PEOPLE!
FANDOM_WANK: Or not. *mock mock mocking*, which occasionally ends in smocking, after which we all end up with cute little pinafores.
[Transcriber's Note: was that a place for emo? Did I get it right?]
So anyway the wank is not the point; the point isn't even those crazy kids at F_W, nor even their smocking needles.
The point is word choice. I felt like poking Person A with a firm needle of repartee (© Jane Eyre omg!), but I actually knew what Person A meant. Every once in a while I'll be reading a fic and I'll stumble onto a word--a word that isn't necessarily uncommon, but a word that makes me say, "Oh. I just know Author had her thesaurus out for this one," and not in a "what a way to flex your vocab" way, but in a "that was completely unnecessary; she should've used a simpler word" way. That is, the word, which wouldn't've caused me to bat an eyelash in a more sophisticated piece, draws attention like a sore thumb because the rest of the piece (conceptually, structurally, grammatically, whatever) doesn't quite...live up to the occasional bursts of elevated vocabulary.
I think it happens a lot with new writers and especially young writers and also bad writers. Some people with a smaller vocabulary might be deciding to spice up their piece with a couple of words they either a) don't know, b) understand but aren't familiar with how to use, c) rarely hear or see. The result might be a relatively even tone, voice, style of the piece, until you get to those particular words. Again, they might not be particularly complex or unusual words, just words that stand out as a little more...advanced than the rest.
But I use the thesaurus ALL THE TIME, and not just when I can't think of a word...I use it when I want to find a word with a certain flavor, and sometimes the word I choose is also "more advanced" than the word I would've chosen on my own. Also, I freely admit that I am one of those writers who has a small vocabulary and tries to spice up her writing with a thesaurus and words I might not normally use in ordinary conversation. In one fic I actually used words that I did not know (something I'd never done before. I looked them up in the dictionary and then googled around to see how they were used in various sentences before I used them, but before that, I had had no clue what the words meant).
The thing is, I think it's possible to use a word you didn't know before, or hadn't used before, or have rarely see, and not have it feel out of place, not have it break the style, tone, voice etc. What I really want to ask is, "how does one achieve this?" But I really already have my answer: I read and weigh and experiment and pick the word that feels right to me. Sometimes it's the common word I came up with right off the bat; sometimes it's the word in the thesaurus I might know but wouldn't have lighted on in weeks of thinking, sometimes it's even a word I'm a little uncertain of and have to go double-check the meaning of before I use it (and that one time, it was words I didn't know at all!)
But what I'm interested in is the attitudes towards this. Do you use a thesaurus, how much, do you like using it, does it feel like cheating, do you only use it because you can't *think* of a word, or do you use it because you have a word you could use but it just doesn't have the right flavor? Do you ever hold off on using the thesaurus because you feel it might stilt your speech? Do you use a thesaurus on purpose to stilt your speech? Do you use words you're uncertain of, or don't know? Do you ever pull back from using a word because you feel it's something whoever's reading might not know, even though it's a word is something you feel like you might use in everyday conversation? Have you ever had it happen that someone says, "Whoa, showing off your vocab!" when you used a word you thought was pretty common? Do you ever use a word *expecting* that most won't know what it means?
(When you read fanfic, do you ever come across words you don't know? Do you ever go look them up afterwards?)
All the above was just supposed to be one point under the general idea of "word choice," but I had difficulty expressing myself, sorry. I wish someone very clever would come in after me and boil these big posts down to three neat little four-lined paragraphs, because I'm way too lazy to do it.)
One of the questions I have relates to my last question about research: what about word research? How often do you research just looking for a specific word? I mentioned my plate episode, when I wanted to find another word for "ceramic" to reference what the plate is made of. Do people often go hunting for such specific words? And if you were going to write a fic with say, a big medical problem in it, is learning lots of vocabulary along the way something you do? And would you use the words you learned in the fic, even if most people wouldn't know their meanings?
Also, how concerned are you with word choice? Do you just write whatever comes out of you; do you do that but then go back to replace some words with better words, do you end "settling" when you can't find the exact word you want, how long do you hunt for the proper words?
I'm just interested in how writers approach the words they use. Which when you think about it, is really the most basic thing to writing there is, which is maybe why I have so many questions but am finding it difficult to state my point succinctly. I'd love to hear anyone's and everyone's thoughts on it.
Person With Anime Name A: *mocks* The words you use are too big for your fics!
Person With Clever Apathetic Phrase For Name B: You just aren't smart enough to read me! [*is emo*]
FANDOM_WANK: Person With Anime Name A's wee!vocabulary! *mockety-mock*
FANDOM_WANK: Shitmanfuck, Person A's one of ours!
Person A: Yes, the words Person B uses sound too intellectual for the average intellect of her fic, mock her, mock her!
FANDOM_WANK: Wait, we're mocking people who use big words now?
FANDOM_WANK: OMG, WHAT ARE WE MOCKING? LET'S GET IT STRAIGHT, PEOPLE!
FANDOM_WANK: Or not. *mock mock mocking*, which occasionally ends in smocking, after which we all end up with cute little pinafores.
[Transcriber's Note: was that a place for emo? Did I get it right?]
So anyway the wank is not the point; the point isn't even those crazy kids at F_W, nor even their smocking needles.
The point is word choice. I felt like poking Person A with a firm needle of repartee (© Jane Eyre omg!), but I actually knew what Person A meant. Every once in a while I'll be reading a fic and I'll stumble onto a word--a word that isn't necessarily uncommon, but a word that makes me say, "Oh. I just know Author had her thesaurus out for this one," and not in a "what a way to flex your vocab" way, but in a "that was completely unnecessary; she should've used a simpler word" way. That is, the word, which wouldn't've caused me to bat an eyelash in a more sophisticated piece, draws attention like a sore thumb because the rest of the piece (conceptually, structurally, grammatically, whatever) doesn't quite...live up to the occasional bursts of elevated vocabulary.
I think it happens a lot with new writers and especially young writers and also bad writers. Some people with a smaller vocabulary might be deciding to spice up their piece with a couple of words they either a) don't know, b) understand but aren't familiar with how to use, c) rarely hear or see. The result might be a relatively even tone, voice, style of the piece, until you get to those particular words. Again, they might not be particularly complex or unusual words, just words that stand out as a little more...advanced than the rest.
But I use the thesaurus ALL THE TIME, and not just when I can't think of a word...I use it when I want to find a word with a certain flavor, and sometimes the word I choose is also "more advanced" than the word I would've chosen on my own. Also, I freely admit that I am one of those writers who has a small vocabulary and tries to spice up her writing with a thesaurus and words I might not normally use in ordinary conversation. In one fic I actually used words that I did not know (something I'd never done before. I looked them up in the dictionary and then googled around to see how they were used in various sentences before I used them, but before that, I had had no clue what the words meant).
The thing is, I think it's possible to use a word you didn't know before, or hadn't used before, or have rarely see, and not have it feel out of place, not have it break the style, tone, voice etc. What I really want to ask is, "how does one achieve this?" But I really already have my answer: I read and weigh and experiment and pick the word that feels right to me. Sometimes it's the common word I came up with right off the bat; sometimes it's the word in the thesaurus I might know but wouldn't have lighted on in weeks of thinking, sometimes it's even a word I'm a little uncertain of and have to go double-check the meaning of before I use it (and that one time, it was words I didn't know at all!)
But what I'm interested in is the attitudes towards this. Do you use a thesaurus, how much, do you like using it, does it feel like cheating, do you only use it because you can't *think* of a word, or do you use it because you have a word you could use but it just doesn't have the right flavor? Do you ever hold off on using the thesaurus because you feel it might stilt your speech? Do you use a thesaurus on purpose to stilt your speech? Do you use words you're uncertain of, or don't know? Do you ever pull back from using a word because you feel it's something whoever's reading might not know, even though it's a word is something you feel like you might use in everyday conversation? Have you ever had it happen that someone says, "Whoa, showing off your vocab!" when you used a word you thought was pretty common? Do you ever use a word *expecting* that most won't know what it means?
(When you read fanfic, do you ever come across words you don't know? Do you ever go look them up afterwards?)
All the above was just supposed to be one point under the general idea of "word choice," but I had difficulty expressing myself, sorry. I wish someone very clever would come in after me and boil these big posts down to three neat little four-lined paragraphs, because I'm way too lazy to do it.)
One of the questions I have relates to my last question about research: what about word research? How often do you research just looking for a specific word? I mentioned my plate episode, when I wanted to find another word for "ceramic" to reference what the plate is made of. Do people often go hunting for such specific words? And if you were going to write a fic with say, a big medical problem in it, is learning lots of vocabulary along the way something you do? And would you use the words you learned in the fic, even if most people wouldn't know their meanings?
Also, how concerned are you with word choice? Do you just write whatever comes out of you; do you do that but then go back to replace some words with better words, do you end "settling" when you can't find the exact word you want, how long do you hunt for the proper words?
I'm just interested in how writers approach the words they use. Which when you think about it, is really the most basic thing to writing there is, which is maybe why I have so many questions but am finding it difficult to state my point succinctly. I'd love to hear anyone's and everyone's thoughts on it.
no subject
Thesausus? I think I use that Firefox plug-in more than Google. I have a pretty big active vocabulary, but I also lose words on the tip of my tongue ALL THE TIME, so off I go because I know there's a good one for audacious that starts with "b" ... brazen! Ha! Ooh, ballsy, bantam, bold, brash, brassy ... temerarious? Cool.
Yes, I used thesausus.com to write this comment. Or, well, actually, I already had the window open because I am presently fussing with a short story about a very audacious young lady.
In my fiction, I choose words for sound as well as interest, but I'm very conscious that the little ones are popular for a reason. Thou shalt not use long words when diminutive ones shall suffice. Much of my editing is weeding -- of whimsical adjectives, flights of alliteration and punning that give me pleasure by themselves, but gum up the story as a whole. Your comment is astute: that stuff has to be earned; you have to make sure your story is strong enough to carry it.
Graceful simplicity is what happens when a writer is experienced enough to be able play the word games, but confident enough to know when to stop.
no subject
Transcriber's Note: was that a place for emo? Did I get it right?
Yup.
Do you ever pull back from using a word because you feel it's something whoever's reading might not know
Heck, no. I presume my audience is smarter than I am.
Do you ever use a word *expecting* that most won't know what it means?
I figured I'd send a few people scampering off to a dictionary when I used "terpsichorean" last fall. But I also figured it was placed well enough in the text that general meaning would be evident, and nobody's read horribly disrupted.
When you read fanfic, do you ever come across words you don't know? Do you ever go look them up afterwards?
Yes, and double yes.
Do you just write whatever comes out of you
Yes, but it won't come out until it's marginally pretty, unless I absolutely force it.
do you do that but then go back to replace some words with better words
I always have to do a run-through to get rid of duplicates. Somebody peers at somebody in one paragraph, and then there they are peering again two paragraphs later. It's really bizarre which words get stuck to my fingers.
do you end "settling" when you can't find the exact word you want, how long do you hunt for the proper words?
Occasionally. There's a nasty duplication in the second-to-last paragraph of my post-NFA Spuffy fluffbit, and I still go back now and then to see if I can solve it. Two years from now I'll snap my fingers and go, "Of course!"
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
I use a thesaurus (actually I mostly use a synonym finder, which is slightly different) constantly, because I'm always on the search for the perfect word. Not necessarily the unusual word or the bigger word, but the word that's just right for that character to use at that moment. And depending on which character I'm dealing with, this can be very challenging. Obviously Fred or Wes or Giles would describe things with different words than Buffy or Xander or Gunn. And Angel, because of his age, would have an even wider vocabulary, that's occasionally the slightest bit old-fashioned sounding.
Because I'm still obsessed with this Firefly fic I'm writing, and because I'm finding it especially challenging to choose the right words, I'll use it as an example. Mal's vocabulary isn't particularly advanced--he hasn't had a lot of schooling--but because the series uses a lot of rustic and archaic words, a lot of his vocabulary is unusual to me. And one of Mal's character traits is that he strings words together in beautiful and creative ways. River's not crazy, she's "whimsical in the brainpan." So I've been spending a lot of quality time with my thesaurus trying to come up with quirky combinations of words with just the right flavor so that anyone reading it would instantly know that it's Mal's voice I'm writing in.
So, yeah, if a word's out of place in your writing, it's out of place. It doesn't matter if it's too "big" or too simple, if it's not the right word, it's going to stick out like sore thumb.
(no subject)
no subject
Speaking of vocabulary, active, that's a good word. I have at best a decent vocabulary, but what's frustrating to me is the range of it really isn't at my finger-tips. I use what I consider to be a very small range of words in conversation. The thesaurus often seems to be my only access to words I know but for some reason can't call to mind, and rarely use.
Yes, I used thesausus.com to write this comment.
Heh. I used it to write the post.
Your comment is astute: that stuff has to be earned; you have to make sure your story is strong enough to carry it.
Speaking of graceful simplicity, how many jumbled paragraphs did I use to come to that conclusion? ;o)
Graceful simplicity is what happens when a writer is experienced enough to be able play the word games, but confident enough to know when to stop.
Nice way of putting it and yeah, the latter is totally my biggest problem in writing, as you've alluded to in a comment or two on some of my fic.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
*adores you*
no subject
*squishes!*
no subject
What's another word for "gleaming"?
That was about the age I began writing a novel about a southern writer who's forced to go home to face the hometown folks who aren't all that impressed with the way she homaged them in her first literary effort. It contained both the words "chigger" and "lachrymary" in the first few paragraphs. Yeah. That was unnecessary.
I've since misused words in fic (exacerbate comes to mind) that have been caught by quick betas. But I love the word play and flavor of uncommon words, and I thought the Buffyverse had a deft touch with that. Causing Giles to use olfactory was certainly in character, but having Xander make an "old factory" joke about it and then quickly cover with, "He smelled...right?" was brilliant.
I still occasionally turn to www.thesaurus.com. Just the other day I was working on a fic that included bondage - not the sexy kind, the trussed up and held captive variety - and kept looking for other ways to express it because of the kink overtones the word has in fandom. I think I eventually went with hog-tied...
phosphorescent
See, I'm just not convinced there's such a thing as "overuse" when it comes to a thesaurus so much as misuse. If a writer is using it just so all her words sound fancier or worth of a through the teeth "impressive!", sure, that can make a fic or essay ostentatious or pretentious (who's using a thesaurus NOW? heh). But I use the thesaurus not so much to find the more elevated word as to find the most appropriate word.
That was about the age I began writing a novel about a southern writer who's forced to go home to face the hometown folks who aren't all that impressed with the way she homaged them in her first literary effort. It contained both the words "chigger" and "lachrymary" in the first few paragraphs. Yeah. That was unnecessary.
But it sounds like it could be a great novel if the southern writer eventually realizes that she's actually a pretentious snob, and by the end her words get smaller and smaller--and punchier and punchier, each shorter, simpler phrase filled with more and more meaning.
Yeah, I wanted to do that piece without punctuation. What can I say; I like to juggle geese.
But I love the word play and flavor of uncommon words, and I thought the Buffyverse had a deft touch with that. Causing Giles to use olfactory was certainly in character, but having Xander make an "old factory" joke about it and then quickly cover with, "He smelled...right?" was brilliant.
Oh yeah oh yeah. I loved that about Buffyverse too, and it's so much fun to play with in fic. And because I'm shameless, he's where I did it once that I just thought was funny. And very Faith:
Faith: “Tell. There have to have been some juicy pickle-dillos in your past.”
Angel: “You mean ‘peccadilloes’?”
Faith: “Uh. Yeah. I mean pickles, Angel. Long, thick, juicy pickles.”
Also, I can't wait to have Angel call Buffy "coquette" in a sex scene and Buffy say, "what did you just call your cock now?" Though. Hmm. *scratches head* not sure it quite works because "coque" doesn't actually sound like cock. Huh. :o/
Just the other day I was working on a fic that included bondage - not the sexy kind, the trussed up and held captive variety - and kept looking for other ways to express it because of the kink overtones the word has in fandom. I think I eventually went with hog-tied...
Yeah, this is what I mean above...though I use the thesaurus all the time for even more subtle distinctions. Most of the time I can't articulate why I would choose one word in the thesaurus over another, but it always makes a big difference to me.
Re: phosphorescent
no subject
Words, beautiful words, like shiny pebbles in the sun. I do use a thesaurus, because I have a brain full of holes. Therefore I've got the meaning of the word, and maybe the initial letter. I also have the rhythm of the word, the vague shape of the space it occupies, like its footprint, if you like. But I may not have the word itself - it's escaped and is hiding in the bushes. So if I read through a list of words with similar meanings, the one I was after from the beginning may be hiding in amongst them. Often it isn't, but the action of reading is enough to trigger the catch.
It's got to be the right type of thesaurus as well. Not a concise one, and not one that's the size of a concrete block either - I get lost in the lists with those. My favorite at the moment is the new Penguin - ah, I see it calls itself concise - it's what I call a medium-sized thesaurus.
Something about the hypertextual online format just doesn't chime with the way my brain's connected up, so I won't use an online T unless I'm desperate, and even then, they usually won't work for me.
When I'm revising, I hear the sentence as a string in my head. That's how I know if I've got a word wrong: it's the wrong rhythm for the sentence. I like the shape of words. Sounds like I don't choose them critically, doesn't it? I judge for precision of meaning, and then for the sensory feeling of them. It's sort of like oratory, you know, call and response. If you're orating, you stimulate a response from the audience by the sound and the swell of your words. Even in essay writing, which I do quite a bit of, that's what I'm looking for in the way I've got the words arranged on the page. It's like the rhythm and pacing of the words give the reader hints of what their response should be.
I hadn't thought about this at all, so what I've just written is new to me! Damn, but you ask good questions.
Oh, and in revising, I'll work towards clarity, and I don't always allow myself to be as playful as I'd like. Although I kind of got sanction to be playful from a writing workshop I was on recently.
no subject
Oh yes, discussion with you is vastly enjoyable!
like its footprint, if you like.
Oh, I do like! That's a fabulous way of putting it, because a lot of the time that's what I have when I go bop to the thesaurus for the actual word I'm looking for.
It's got to be the right type of thesaurus as well. Not a concise one, and not one that's the size of a concrete block either - I get lost in the lists with those. My favorite at the moment is the new Penguin - ah, I see it calls itself concise - it's what I call a medium-sized thesaurus.
I have lots of thesauruses (thesauri?), but I really only use thesaurus.com. I have a really old Roget's that's conceptually organized instead of alphabetically, which can be helpful when I can't even think of a word to look up, or ... for other reasons I can't articulate right now. I understand about not using online thesauruses. Have you seen this?--I can see both how it'd be even more uncomfortable to use than thesaurus.com...but also how it might be closer to having a book at your finger-tips.
Sounds like I don't choose them critically, doesn't it? I
Doesn't sound that way to me at all. The rhythm and shape of a word is very very important to a sentence, to a paragraph, to a piece on the whole--and it's not something too many people seem to think about.
If you're orating, you stimulate a response from the audience by the sound and the swell of your words. [...] It's like the rhythm and pacing of the words give the reader hints of what their response should be.
I didn't know that about orating and omg, I LOVE how you put that, about how the ryhthm/pacing gives the reader the hints for the response. I think that's really true.
I hadn't thought about this at all, so what I've just written is new to me! Damn, but you ask good questions.
Ha, I'm glad you feel that way!
Oh, and in revising, I'll work towards clarity, and I don't always allow myself to be as playful as I'd like. Although I kind of got sanction to be playful from a writing workshop I was on recently.
I think it's only in the last year or so that I really started playing around with writing, although I've been writing--seriously writing--since the 6th grade, really. I guess there *might*'ve been a time when I was all about playing with style, but it all got knocked out of me when a. I went to college, and b. I realized a lot of the things I'd written didn't make any sense, they were so drowned in "style." Anyway, I've been writing fanfiction for years, but it wasn't until I found Jossverse and some of the great writers here (and kinda simultaneously, read a couple novels that dabbled in this sort of thing) that I realized you *can* be experimental and *can* play with all the crazy things words can do and *can* use so many of the crazy connections and ideas that I see when I read and write, but don't know how to pull off.
I still can't quite pull off everything I try, but lord is it fun to endeavor.
no subject
Me clings to me thesauruses (thesauri?) like a clinging thing. Using a bound thesaurus helps focus my thoughts, although there are times I like the immediacy of online versions.
I'm an old-school writer, so at any time I have a number of books open on my desk -- style guides, dictionary, more than one thesaurus. It's a comfort zone for me. And I will hunt for the right word until I find it.
Yes, the word has to have the right flavor -- and weight. Can't throw the sentence off balance. It also has to have the right cadence when I hear it in my mind. I'm not so concerned with readers having to rush off to the dictionary to look it up as long as it moves well within the structure of the sentence. Plus the paragraph has to have a underlying rythmn. How successful am I doing that? Hit-or-miss. but that's what I strive for.
But nearly as important to me are works from writers that I love -- I'll pick up books of poetry while I'm writing just to feel certain patterns and words, rediscover usage. I lean on poets more than writers when I'm writing fic. Lately it's been Olga Broummas, Neruda and Lorca. (Yeah, I know. Slash will do that to me!)But does it make it into the fic? Nope. It's just fuel.
That actually happens with 99% of the reasearch I do for a fic. Get as thoroughly inculcated in the subject as I can, given the limits of my intellect and the timeframe, and then leave most of that off the page. I think that's probably very common -- again, old school habits.
And I am a huge fan of using new-to-you words in fic! Yes!! Do this daily! Lather, rinse, repeat with those!
And as for vocab snootery? I'm not afraid of that at all. I once dated someone who mocked me for my "Ten dollar vocabulary." Alas, she could find my g-spot, but that dis put out the fire for me. Gotta have priorities.
I love your posts like whoa.
no subject
Heh. It's good when I live up to my name! Then I don't get that question, "WHY AREN'T YOU BEING JOYFUL?" Which is clever enough for some people but TERRIBLY AGGRAVATING when I am depressed!
Using a bound thesaurus helps focus my thoughts,
This is interesting! I almost always need a thesuaurs to be as immediate as possible, or else I lose the flow of what I'm writing.
Yes, the word has to have the right flavor -- and weight. Can't throw the sentence off balance. It also has to have the right cadence when I hear it in my mind.
You know, most people are mentioning rhythm, and it's something very important to me as a writer. I read most pieces I write out loud. I wish I knew how this works, why some things sound *right* and others do not.
I'll pick up books of poetry while I'm writing just to feel certain patterns and words, rediscover usage. ...
That actually happens with 99% of the reasearch I do for a fic. Get as thoroughly inculcated in the subject as I can, given the limits of my intellect and the timeframe, and then leave most of that off the page. I think that's probably very common -- again, old school habits.
I don't know if you saw; I did a post [Bad username or site: http://tkp.livejournal.com/22387.html @ livejournal.com]here talking about exactly this. Anyway, I think it's interesting that some people read poetry to inspire prose...I should try it sometime. Then again poetry just makes me sad because I can't do it. I've never read anything prose where I came away feeling, "I could never get anywhere close" but all the poetry I love is like that for me. I have a T S Eliot complex. I'm rambling.
And I am a huge fan of using new-to-you words in fic! Yes!!
Oh really! The one time I did it in a fic I was most trepidacious. Heh. Trepidacious, I had to look that up.
Alas, she could find my g-spot, but that dis put out the fire for me.
Compliments. Check. G-spot finding. Check. Dude, you are so picky! :o) :o)
I love your posts like whoa.
I'm glad!
(no subject)
no subject
When I first started out writing, I eventually ventured over to the AIM robot SmarterChild who has a built in dictionary and thesaurus. I'm very guilty for using words I do not know and have never seen in really bad fics that they just don't belong in. But I at least looked them up in the dictionary first...
I've taken a break from writing fics etc. because of my total lack of knowledge as far as that goes so I can read up on it. I've bought like fifty books on essays and I've been hanging around some of the more experienced fandom writers on LJ and reading their essays, including this one! I'm guessing the next time I try to write I'll probably be re-reading to see if the word fits although - after using the thesaurus so much - there are few words that I do not know or can't figure out!
I love mixing ingredients then baking up a certain flavor to a story. How it's read and then how it tastes afterwards. I won't be able to reach this point unless I get my writing skills together - which includes the type of words that I use in what I'm writing. I guess how they fit in a story is one more thing I'm going to have to work on. Really, who wants to read the word 'hebetudinous' in a story where the majority of the words have under 12 letters in them? Certainly not me, I tell you.
no subject
Ha! I tried to think of something so I could use it. When I asked about it before I had tried on my comp but it wasn't showing up! So I figured I didn't know what it was. Then I figured out you had to use the numbers on the number pad. I'm such a complete ditz sometimes.
I'm very guilty for using words I do not know
I hardly ever do it because it's so easy to...not really misuse a word; if I look up the definition I'll probably get the meaning it right, but it's so easy for it to *sound* awkward because it's not the word I'd *normally* use, you know?
I've taken a break from writing fics etc. because of my total lack of knowledge as far as that goes so I can read up on it. I've bought like fifty books on essays and I've been hanging around some of the more experienced fandom writers on LJ and reading their essays, including this one!
Well, I'm so glad if posts like these can help you think of ways to be a better writer! But really, actually, I think the best way to learn is to read the kinds of things you want to write, and to write as often as you can. I've learned so many things through just writing. I know everyone says that, but I really think it's true!
I'm guessing the next time I try to write I'll probably be re-reading to see if the word fits
Rereading to make sure the words fit together and "sound" good is something I always do. Sometimes I read the whole thing out loud...if a piece flows well out loud, it generally flows easily through a reader's mind. Which is important, you don't want a reader stumbling and having to solve what you've written as if it's some kind of math equation...though I freely admit that quite a few things I've written read some jumbled up-ly that reading it's like working out a particularly difficult algebra problem.
Really, who wants to read the word 'hebetudinous' in a story where the majority of the words have under 12 letters in them? Certainly not me, I tell you.
Heh, yes, that's exactly what I mean! But then again, the neat thing about being very careful about word choice...if the majority of the story is full of words under 12 letters, the word "hebetudinous" (had to look that up) calls special attention to itself...most of the time, you don't want one word in particular to be given special attention, but sometimes, for very specific reasons, you do, and knowing how all your words fit together and flow is very important to both maintaining that flow and jerking the reader out of it. If that makes any sense.
no subject
The only time I use a thesaurus is if I'm having a momentary brain freeze of "what is that word that means xyz and starts with a q and" - as a sort of reverse dictionary. I tend to do it more in my work stuff than I do for fic - stopping to look something up would break the flow of my writing and I'm much less likely to brain freeze on a fic, because I am lazy enough that I only write when I am in the zone - sadly at work I have to work EVERY DAY, whatever, work.
Sometimes I'll tweak something after it's done, change a word choice here and there, but it's pretty rare, I tend to go with my gut instinct. I agree that word choices need to be the RIGHT word choice and there often is the perfect word - but it's also usually the word that comes to mind first 90% of the time.
I also, usually, try to tone down the language in my fic - often to less than my natural writing/speaking style - I have a naturally large vocabulary. Because I appreciate accessibility and also because I tend to write in a very tight POV and my choices should reflect my characters.
no subject
That's really interesting to me, because I actually seem to brain freeze *more* when I'm "in the zone." I mean, when I'm forcing everything out, or just kinda writing off-hand (I have no idea what that means but it sounded good) the words I'm thinking of flow pretty easily. A lot of times they're boring words with a lot of suck, but they come to me. When I'm really, really in a groove all the sudden the text is streaming out like my fingers are ...well, grooving down some sort of path, but the bottom keeps dropping out, possibly because the world hates me, AtS got cancelled, and Chili's stopped serving that apple thing for dessert. Whatever the reason, I end up putting asterisks where the words should be, because if I stop my fingers will lose the beat and take a wrong turn.
I have a naturally large vocabulary.
As someone with a kinda small vocabulary, I wonder how that works. I mean, I feel like I'm pretty smart, like I should know a lot of words. And yet I just don't and so often forget the ones I do know. I wonder if it's a memory thing? Anywho, it would suck to have to hold back like that.
Although, what you say about POV limited to the character is another thing again--if you're writing a really close limited third the word choice is a whole lot less about relating to your audience than it is about characterization. Even stuff like your rhythm, etc falls under the auspices of characterization. When I write limited third, I tend to zero in really close to the character and then pan back out, almost to omnicient, so the "voice" of the narrator sometimes slips into free and indirect discourse of the character, but is sometimes more (or, feasibly, less) advanced than the character I'm writing.
no subject
I do end up settling sometimes, though I don't like it. On such occasions I'll often set the piece aside and come back later with a fresh brain. I'm fairly concerned with word choice, though I tend to be more concerned with it on the level of sentence and paragraph than individual words--I mean, I want to get the exact right word, but I'm more concerned with getting the exact right sentence, if that makes any sense. I revise a lot, for word choice, for rhythm, for atmosphere.
no subject
Hahahahaha! I know that exact feeling;
On such occasions I'll often set the piece aside and come back later with a fresh brain.
I do that too. It's amazing how if you're not thinking about it, words can just sort of pop! into existence in your brain, and you're, I don't know, washing your sheets, and all the sudden you have that missing word for your story.
I tend to be more concerned with it on the level of sentence and paragraph than individual words--I mean, I want to get the exact right word, but I'm more concerned with getting the exact right sentence, if that makes any sense.
Perfect sense. As you say, part of it is about rhythm. And of course, the individual words themselves aren't what's important...and you never, or rarely, want the reader to say, "hey, that was a great word you used!"...you want them to say "hey, that was a great story!", and for that, the words have to fit with the sentences have to fit with the paragraphs have to fit with the story.
no subject
But as a resource, used properly, the thesaurus is really invaluable, I think. Using it to find a synonym and avoid high degrees of repetition, or to find a word that better suits the tone of your story or the rhythm of your words than the one that first springs to mind, or to just branch out and see if there are better words for what you want to say are all valid uses, and are great--if the use is coupled with the word research so as to avoid big snafus.
As far as word choice goes: for me, it really comes down to being in tune with my style and general way of writing, and the tone I want to set in a particular story; I tend to think that if you have a good-enough handle on where you are and where you're going, it'll be easier to find the words for what you want to say, whether or not those are words that you use everyday or words that you find via another resource. I sometimes have whole passages just appear in my mind out of nowhere, but once they're written, stringing them together and finding the right words that still suit the mood/tone/etc. can be like pulling teeth; that's where the whole nose-to-the-grindstone part takes over, and the thesaurus may make an appearance.
I don't pull back if I feel like I'm using a word that other people won't know; most of the time, I just try to make sure that the context is such that a reader could get the basics of the meaning, if not the full essence, from the way the word's used.
I have gotten the "Whoa! Holy GRE words!" comments in conversation before over words that I didn't think were any big deal, and it kind of weirded me out, to be honest. I don't really think of my vocabulary as all that all-encompassing--I just like words, and learning new ones and how to use them and actually using them. The comments have never really stopped me from talking, though, though they have given me pause, and they generally make me more aware of trying to give more of a context during the rest of that particular conversation.
I hope this makes sense, though I know it's a bit on the rambly, stream-of-consciousness side... day 5 of achy-super tense-neck-migrainey thing is not my friend. Woe. :( Even so, thanks for making me think! :)
(And yep, you used emo correctly. *g*)
no subject
That's exactly it with me, too. Some people say you can over-use a thesaurus. Well, I personally sometimes use a thesaurus on every other word!--so it might just be me being defensive, but I tend to think the problem is not over using it, just using it wrong.
I think my big problem with theasaurus use is akin to the problem with spell-check--people tend to get lazy with and because of it.
Yeah. And to me, if I'm really that unsure of what a word means, it requires more than just looking it up in a dictionary. There are certain ways most words are used, and a certain way a lot of phrases are put together... such that even if the word you're using is *technically* correct, it still may come out sounding awkward. Sometimes that can create a really great effect--one book I ready managed to use so many big and not-what-you-would-think-fits-there words that almost every word really jumped off the page and felt new. But my suspicion is the writer in question knew not only the meaning of all those words but precisely how they were generally used--because only then can you really began to twist them, I think.
I sometimes have whole passages just appear in my mind out of nowhere, but once they're written, stringing them together and finding the right words that still suit the mood/tone/etc. can be like pulling teeth
It's so funny how that works. I write in bursts. A paragraph or so will come to me, and then I have to sit there. Sometimes I go elsewhere. Sometimes I pace. Sometimes I take a bath. Then I can come back and write another burst. Just out of curiousity, do you write all those passages first and then go string them together later--i.e., write non-linearly?
I have gotten the "Whoa! Holy GRE words!" comments in conversation before over words that I didn't think were any big deal, and it kind of weirded me out, to be honest.
That happens to me in conversation too. Also over IM. Which is yeah, kinda weird, because I really do have a somewhat limited vocab for someone of my education and abilities. What's more disconcerting is learning that someone didn't know what the words you were using meant and they didn't tell you. I find it frustrating, because why would I be talking if I didn't want anyone to understand me?
And aww. I hope your achy-super-tense-neck-migrainey thing went away! *digitally rubs your shoulders*
I should get a badge. Am now proud and confident user of the term "emo."
(no subject)
no subject
Can I also say that I use an online thesaurus to look up words sometimes just because I'm extremely forgetful? There are times when I'm writing comments or posts and I say to myself, "I know there's a word that means something like _________... damn, what was it again?" Senility is creeping up on me.
no subject
Dude, it's not senility! I've been doing that since forever! And I had to use the thesaurus to write this post (couldn't think of another word for "sophisticated"). What's sad is when I can't even think of a word close to the meaning I'm looking for to look up in the thesaurus!
no subject
no subject
Although I know my writing tends to be way too dense for my own good, and that my phrasing is often needlessly convoluted, I don't think I run into this problem with specific words very much. Sometimes, though, I consciously *choose* to choose the heftier word just because I feel like it would be more suited to that convoluted phrasing and dense style ... which just leads to further hazing up my point. I need to learn a balance, somewhere!
what I *think* it means. In that case, I look it up, and I might think twice about using it if I myself wasn't sure what it meant.
This happens to me fairly often. The words people around me use are really a limited range, so I've learned most my words from books. I tend to be very very slow, though, at getting meanings to stick in my head; it's not until I've figured out the word from context a couple dozen times that I actually even think about using it. What's embarrassing is when I go to use it and find out it doesn't mean what I think it means... or means exactly th opposite.
(no subject)
no subject
I use the thesaurus all the time. But rarely to use more advanced words not in my regular vocabulary. More often than not: to substitute a word that I feel I've been using a lot, to get a certain "flavor", as you say, or a word that's a "synonym" but has a *slightly* different meaning, or to come up with a word I can't think of. Which is difficult, because normally when I'm struggling for the word I'm looking for, I can't even think of synonyms.
And, not that I'm in any way super-intellectual, but sometimes it's the simpler word that I blank on and the more advanced vocabulary that pops into my head, and on those occasions I'll usually be the one to think "that word sounds too formal in that context" and have to use the thesaurus to remind myself of a word that would sound more natural.
And I do get taken out of a fic when an out-of-place word is used, more so in dialogue than narrative, but I'll usually just pause a moment and then move on, rather than dwelling or complaining about it.
no subject
This happens to me A LOT! I'm glad I'm not the only one. I have a thesaurus that's organized by concept, as opposed to alphabetic, so when I'm really stuck, I can look up a word that's only reeeeeally tangentially related and get there pretty quickly.
ometimes it's the simpler word that I blank on and the more advanced vocabulary that pops into my head, and on those occasions I'll usually be the one to think "that word sounds too formal in that context" and have to use the thesaurus to remind myself of a word that would sound more natural.
This happens to me sometimes. I wish it happened more often. It'd be nice to have the bigger words at my finger-tips so I'd at least have a choice of them. Instead I seem pretty adept at cutting straight to the chase.
Though I'm rather proud that "adept" came to me so easily while writing the above sentence.
rather than dwelling or complaining about it.
I don't think I've ever had it bother me to the point where it'd truly *bother* me or make me stop reading--though it's something I'd definitely point out if beta'ing. But when it happens a lot it's sure to lesser my opinion of the quality of the story as a whole.
no subject
I recently got into a similar discussion on
no subject
A lot of people have mentioned they use a thesaurus to find the word with the correct rhythm. Rhythm is very important to me also, but I know so little about how it works. I hear it; I'm just not sure why some things sound better than others. That's my next question, I guess!
Thanks for linking to that discussion! I should really read 3D. I wasn't thinking about word choice as it related to the 'verse or characterization, more as it relates to the rest of the piece itself and also to the audience. That's partly because if you're writing a character in "voice"--say, if it's in first person or a very close limited third--then word choice isn't going to be about "does this fit?" so much as about "would character X say this?"--which is a lot more about characterization than the other things I brought up in this post.
With a more distant third, or maybe if you can get away with it, a second person, word choice (and rhythm, and everything else that's not dialgue) become a bit more about the narrator, or the author (usually both) than they are in close third or first. And so I think it's possible to do something like say, make *very* introspective observations about Buffy, without having Buffy (not given overly much to introspection) make them. The key is to have a narrative distance--which I know I've fucked up in several fics, by either saying blatantly, "Buffy thought," or having Buffy react to thoughts I do not think she'd really think, or slipping into a tone that sounds like a much closer limited third than it really is.
But even then, now matter how much distance you put in it, there can be words, language, images, thoughts, that simply don't fit in the world of the characters--then it's not so much a matter of characterization as simply mood.
Uh, I hope that makes sense.
no subject
I love your posts.
no subject
I love your posts.
I'm glad!
no subject
I haven't posted much at all of what I've written, but I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've deliberately gone to a thesaurus for a different word, as opposed to going "crud, what is that word that kind of means xxxx...." and dragging a thesaurus out for the assistance. I've had teachers ask me if I did, though, and not believe me when I told them no, that was my actual vocabulary... I suppose that could mean I have a rather large vocabulary... *shrugs* I don't think I've ever deliberately used a word for spicing purposes.
I don't like using a thesaurus, as a general rule, but if I feel it's necessary to get to where I want to be I'll do it... but I'm lucky enough that I haven't had to often. I don't worry about it stilting my speech, because if it doesn't work, I won't use it, no matter why I went looking for it, and no I won't refuse to use a word that came to me because someone might not get it. That's what a dictionary's for, if they want to know.
I won't use a word I'm not sure about, because that feels... hollow. I don't think I expect people not to know things, but then I am frequently reminded by friends of mine that I expect far too much in the area of knowledge from the general populace.
Yes, I have people look at me strangely for my vocabulary at least once or twice a month--and these are university upperclassmen!
(Absolutely I go look up anything I don't know, fanfic or pro work. No, not afterwards, right-the-hell then, because it will aggravate the hell out of me otherwise.)
Oh. Word research. That's a whole other topic... yes, if I think it's necessary I will go do word research, extensively if I have to. Yes, if I was going to write medical things, I would write in medicalese when a doctor or nurse was thinking/speaking/acting, because that's how it would be done. Another, lay character would then become confused at what was being said and it would be translated for them (that's when I call my mother and make her drag out the hospital "layperson speech guide" [yes, a manual on how doctors should talk to normal people does exist] for me). Actually, I'll do that with any professional field I attempt to write. Every section of the population has jargon, and if you don't use it correctly, the character that is part of that section won't feel natural to the reader. (Obviously, unless you're writing for ER, Scrubs, or other doctor shows, we're not talking about the principal characters here, but supporting ones there for a purpose).
Normally I go with what comes out, because I very rarely can find a better way to put it. It may have taken me some time to get there the first time, but it's generally right when it comes out.
I have kind of an opposite problem to the one you're talking about... one of my most commonly written characters is a teenaged male of sometimes questionable maturity with something of a distaste for education. He doesn't say things the way I would, and I have to rigorously edit what I write from his point of view to make certain he sounds like himself and not like me. No big-syllable words unless there's no way around it, no real lengthy exposition.... and I have to remind myself that 'no, he wouldn't know that, or get that, go be confused there!' about something that his best-friend boy genius character has just said or done. That's a fun little struggle.
There's my.... well, several cents on the matter. Questions, commentary, think I'm an idiot?
no subject
Welcome, I'm well, I'm glad you did, and at least I know you're not Eve!
I've had teachers ask me if I did, though, and not believe me when I told them no, that was my actual vocabulary
That happened to me in high school once. I asked if I could have a thesaurus for an essay test; he said yes; I ended up not using it; he refused to believe I didn't get half the words from the thesaurus. This is possibly because I wrote an essay on the Industrial Revolution as a bodice ripper, complete with *very* purple prose (I was bored!)
I don't worry about it stilting my speech, because if it doesn't work, I won't use it, no matter why I went looking for it,
I do worry about that sometimes, because every once in a while it's hard for me to tell if the word works or if it didn't mesh. Usually I'm pretty good at hearing what I write...but there's that doubt there.
I won't use a word I'm not sure about, because that feels... hollow.
Almost like cheating? I feel that way whenever I do it. And yet, sometimes I feel like there's no other way to either a. get at what I mean, or b. suit the tone of what I'm writing. I tend to do a bit of research--both looking it up and googling for sentences using the word--when I use a word I'm not sure of, but still, it feels . . . yeah, kind of cheap somehow.
yes, a manual on how doctors should talk to normal people does exist
That's so cool!
Every section of the population has jargon, and if you don't use it correctly, the character that is part of that section won't feel natural to the reader.
I feel that way too. I tend to research both the professions of and the passions of the people I'm writing. Even if I never use the weirdly technical words I learn, knowing them kind of helps me . . . adjust my brain to how they think, where they're coming from.
one of my most commonly written characters is a teenaged male of sometimes questionable maturity with something of a distaste for education. He doesn't say things the way I would, and I have to rigorously edit what I write from his point of view to make certain he sounds like himself and not like me.
Several people have pointed out how word choice can be just as much about characterization, which I think is really true, depending on the POV you're writing. In first person and a close limited third, word choice isn't going to be about your vocabulary, or that of your audience, and making sure the vocabulary in your piece is uniform and suited to the over-all tone is more about characterization than things like your use of the thesaurus.
I had some of the same issues while writing Faith in the BtVS fandom. She has a limited education and occasionally uses bad grammar ... my difficulty though was making her too stupid. She's a smart gal, just not big with the book learnin' . . . which means not getting to use some words that might be more apt.
Questions, commentary, think I'm an idiot?
Of course not; thanks for dropping by!
Here via metafandom...
I do all these things. It depends. Sometimes I hunt for the right word, tearing my hair out the whole time. Other times, I just settle for the closest word to what I want, and maybe I'll go back and fix it. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night, knowing the right word to use. But I don't kill myself finding the perfect word. In a long story, one word usually gets lost in the shuffle.
I care more about the story, in the macro, rather than the words I use to tell the story, in the micro.
Re: Here via metafandom...
I have the same kind of issues when it comes to style; my short pieces tend to be very stylized, while the style of my shorter pieces fade into the background as much as possible in order for the story to come forward. I guess it's just because the "micro" is so much more noticeable in a short fic.
Anyway, I'm rambling! Thanks for your thoughts.
no subject
Words are so interesting. During my school years, I had three years of Latin, four of French, and two of Spanish. I can't speak any of them, but it made me more aware of my own language.
In answer to your question - I usually use a thesaurus because you have a word you could use but it just doesn't have the right flavor. That sums it up nicely. Since I'm always working in Word, I'll type the 'almost-right' word, then use the internal MS Word thesaurus to see if I can identify the exact word I'm looking for. If not, I'll check thesaurus.com when I get back online. And ultimately, if I can't find the exact derivation I want, I may end up just settling for the 'almost-right' word, if it conveys my meaning 'well enough'.
I won't use words I didn't know before seeing them in the thesaurus; it acts more as a memory boost. We all have so many words in our brain that it can sometimes be difficult to dig up the exact word we want, without the reminder of the thesaurus. But, if I recognize them, I expect my readers to do so as well; I've never held back from using a word because I thought it was too high-falutin'. (And if they don't, I expect that they can understand the meaning through context.) On the other hand, I write simple "friendship" stories without a lot of depth; the issue of 'big' or 'fancy' words rarely comes up. *g*
How often do you research just looking for a specific word?
Very seldom. I've done it occasionally, when there seems to be only one general-use word for the item or idea. If that means I have to use the same word four times in one paragraph, I'll go searching for alternatives.
Have you ever had it happen that someone says, "Whoa, showing off your vocab!" when you used a word you thought was pretty common?
Just once. A commenter thought that the character wouldn't use the phrase "harbinger of Spring" in a letter (despite the fact that it's a well-known phrase!). *g* Different takes on the character; I know the man is educated, and I believe that it's human tendency to write a bit more 'upscale' than we speak, so it worked for me. I'll shrug off the occasional remark as, we all have different expectations in our characters. If several people noted word choice in many of my stories, I might re-think my vocabular habits. Otherwise, it's a "you can't please all of the people all of the time" situation.
Also, how concerned are you with word choice?
Very. I've sometimes spent five or ten minutes searching my brain / using Word's thesaurus / using thesaurus.com to find the exact word that I want, to convey the precise meaning that I intend. But when proofing my work, I may decide on a different word (sometimes simpler) to better fit the 'flow' of the passage. But, when all else fails, I will 'settle' for the 'adequate' word; if the story keeps moving along, the occasional 'not-quite-but-almost-right' word will not jar the reader.
pick the word that feels right to me.
And that's what it all comes down to. However we find that word, we want to use it to enhance our story. I don't think any method is 'wrong' if we keep that goal in mind.
.
no subject
Heh. Boy do I know that feeling.
Since I'm always working in Word, I'll type the 'almost-right' word, then use the internal MS Word thesaurus to see if I can identify the exact word I'm looking for.
I feel like a prize idiot, because I didn't even know Word *had* a thesaurus. Sometimes I type in the almost-right word and put an asterisk afterwards, so I know to go back and find the right one.
I believe that it's human tendency to write a bit more 'upscale' than we speak, so it worked for me.
Oh yeah, and that presents all sorts of difficulties for getting the "right" characterization. Even if your canon is book-based, you so often see the characters *speak* as opposed to *write*, and I definitely agree that everyone I've ever encountered has different writing habits than they do speech habits.
But, when all else fails, I will 'settle' for the 'adequate' word;
It really depends on the piece, but I've done this fairly often. It drives me buggy. Whenever I reread I note the word and lament I didn't find the better word I knew there was! But sometimes there's just a mental block, the way there is sometimes when I write a first draft meaning to rewrite it and simply can't find new ways to rephrase certain parts.
I don't think any method is 'wrong' if we keep that goal in mind.
Oh, definitely!
Thanks for your thoughts!
(no subject)
no subject
I tend to write by pouring everything out, and then going back to revise. I don't stop to look for a word, but I'll sometimes put down a place-holder and come back to it later.
I never look up words when I'm reading for fun. If I see them enough, I'll learn what they mean by osmosis. That said, I *heart* the OED. I mostly use it to check for earliest usage when I'm writing a period piece, but I swear you could find anything you would ever want to know about the English language in it.
no subject
but I'll sometimes put down a place-holder and come back to it later.
I do this quite often. Sometimes it's something with the right sound but not the right meaning, or vice versa; sometimes it's just an asterisk.
I never look up words when I'm reading for fun. If I see them enough, I'll learn what they mean by osmosis.
What worries me when I see words I don't know is what if I DON'T see that word again, or not for a while--then I'll have missed the opportunity! Seriously, I'm kind of scary about this sometimes. Some books I don't carry with me without also bringing a dictionary. Usually I just bring a pen and write down all the words on a bookmark or the back cover.
hat said, I *heart* the OED. I mostly use it to check for earliest usage when I'm writing a period piece, but I swear you could find anything you would ever want to know about the English language in it.
I love the OED too! I really want one. The first time I used it was my fish course of college, in which we were supposed to do really close word-by-word analysis of Canterbury Tales. Essentially, you couldn't do it without the OED; you had to talk about not only what each word meant, and could've meant then, but how the origin and development of the word's meaning could affect the meaning of the text as well. I'm going to sound like a dork, but lord, it was sooooo fun.
no subject
That said, I do find it jarring to be in a tight 3rd person POV or first person and to have words surface in the description or inner narrative that I can't believe that character would ever use. It's not necessarily about being advanced, though -- it could equally well be too vulgar or too American or too young.
no subject