lettered | And for fandom's next act...

And for fandom's next act...

heatherly's post supports responsible and/or thoughtful writing about concepts such as rape, incest, and pedophilia.

xanphibian's post posits that fandom behaves responsibly in regards to that kind of fic through labeling and warnings, and that the fic behind such warnings is important to us as fans and women.

xanphibian covered most of my opinions on this, but I have two additional points. The first point I want to make as someone who has never suffered any form of abuse, sexual or otherwise, who was lucky enough to never ever be touched in a wrong or uncomfortable way, who had a great childhood. And still has gangbang rape fantasies.

xanphibian made the point that fiction about rape can help survivors deal with what they had suffered. And that these stories can sometimes be extremely realistic. So far (in this particular debate) I have seen those who would have us "write responsibly" acknowledge this point. I have not seen them say every fic that has to do with rape has to deal with rape realistically. I have seen them acknowledge that this therapeutic fic is not irresponsible.

But then they go and make a distinction between this "therapeutic" fic and fic written for kink, just to get off.

I don't get the difference.

The distinction they make is that the first type of fic may be unrealistic, but it is written for a serious and important reason (therapy), by people who are serious about the topic and understand the terrible reality of it. The second type of fic is written because it is hot. These people are not serious about the topics and don't care about them, and have no understanding of these issues IRL.

I wrote an incest fic once. My primary motivation to write it was because it was hot. The boys were pretty; I wanted to smoosh them; I have a kink for fictional incest. I may've had some concepts in there about the characters and I may've been making a pretty literary painting, but I wrote it to get off. And that? Was therapeutic for me. Me getting off is a Serious And Important reason to write this stuff. Because it shames me that I have these kinks--but not when I get to explore them in a fictional setting that can't hurt anyone. Not when other women read them and get off as well, not when other women can freely admit to having and freely explore their own fantasies. Because I don't know what I'd be doing right now if I didn't have this place I felt was safe to explore my fantasies. Possibly I would be seeking out situations that are unsafe because I wouldn't have this outlet of exploration. Knowing me, more probably, I would not. I would keep it to myself, and repress, and feel sick and ugly and bad for feeling the ways I do, and because I do know me I know it would spiral in on itself and make things like my anxiety and depression so much worse than they already are.

I know that my anxiety and depression are nothing next to the trauma others have suffered. I also know that me getting off from fiction, while extremely important, is a selfish concern compared to survivors using fiction to work through their pain, fear, distrust, everything.

But because I write this stuff to get off, because I'm writing straight to the kink, because the boys are pretty or Wincest is wrong but too hot to resist, because that is the only reason I am writing this--does that automatically mean I can't also be someone serious about the issue, who understands the terrible reality of it? Does it automatically mean I can have no emotional investment in these issues? Does it automatically mean I must not be considering all the implications and ramifications of what I write and how it relates to the general public, from everyone to children to survivors to middle aged women to the vast majority who could care less? If I write my kinks to get off, does that automatically make me ignorant, cavalier, irresponsible, and completely divorced from anything serious relating to this concept in real life?

I think most of us understand that rape is terrible and horrible and very very real. Even the average Joe understands that, even if he has never experienced it for himself. If we write Wincest for the sole reason that it is hot, that doesn't mean we don't understand that it would be wrong irl, that if they were real and really brothers it would be unhealthy and emotionally damaging. What it means is we find it hot, completely separate from RL consequences.

POINT TWO. If people weren't cutting, weren't warning, if people were posting in kids' forums or at the local YMCA, it would be obvious to me that the people calling for responsibility here meant we need cuts and warnings and labels and stricter posting rules. As it is, I don't know what they're asking for. If it is showing real life consequences within our fiction, that is addressed above and quite well in

xanphibian's post. If it is just that we be serious about said issues, care about them, and have an understanding of them in reality--what the hell has that got to do with my fanfic (beyond cutting, warning, labeling, posting in appropriate places)?

The distinction being made--between authors who are aware of real life consequences and those who are not, between those who write for serious reasons and those who write for kink--the distinction implies that it matters who or what the author is, that it matters why they write what they do. That makes no sense to me. It's not a reflection on the work if Lewis Carroll crushed on Alice Liddel or Byron had a suspicious relationship with his sister. More importantly, the work is not a reflection of the author. Nabokov was not a pedophile and Thomas Harris is probably not a cannibal. A story can tell everything there is to know about a real man, and also nothing at all. You cannot learn anything true about anyone's real life from a work that is purely fiction. I am not saying fiction has nothing to do with reality, but that no valid judgments can be drawn from it.

I have not seen anyone (in this particular debate) say you should be a rape victim to write fic about rape, or that you need to confess you are a rape victim on a fic about that subject matter. What I have seen, though, is people saying you need to understand the reality of rape, that it's not like what you're writing, that you need to care about it, and consider its victims and perpetrators and all the people in between. I think you need to understand the reality of rape, etc, in order to be a constructive member of human society, but I don't think you need it to write fic. As soon as anyone says, you need to be this to write that, there's an implication your personal reality is the only thing on which the fic can be built. Which in turn implies that what you write is who you are in reality.

It is not. We do not get off on rape, incest, or pedophilia. We are just as sickened and disgusted by the reality of these crimes as the next person, and more so than some.

We get off on fantasies of and fiction about rape, incest, and pedophilia, and it's entirely different. We make it entirely different, and that is why our own bodies and fantasies and minds don't constantly sicken and disgust us.

I think it's important that everyone learn about, educate themselves, trouble themselves to understand the horrors of rape, incest, pedophilia, abuse, so much more. I think it's important that we care about them, care about them intensely.

I think it's important that we ask each other to be responsible. Beg each other. Those of you who are in the trenches, inform us of the trauma and suffering of victims, leave us links to charities and shelters and places we can volunteer. Ask us to make our real lives better. I admit, sometimes I change the channel when it's about starving children, because I don't have any money to give and too often I am lazy and selfish of my time. And even though it's my right to say no, my right to choose--ask, because sometimes I choose yes, as so many do. Ask us to be responsible. Please.

Just sure as fuck don't bring my fiction into it, because I don't see how that relates. At all.

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Oh it's the parents. . . . but clearly they aren't doing it.

I'm not talking about restricting content. I'm also not talking about educating readers.

I don't think content needs to be restricted, I just think if we come across someone who doesn't seem to be writing mindfully we should call them on it. Prompt them to start thinking.

If we are a community I don't see what the problem is in taking some action for that community; esp. if it's as easy as just asking a question.

If we are all members of a community surely it's all our jobs to be involved in it.

Wow. I was reading this thread thinking "You know, this is kind of like my issues with a lot of Spike/Buffy. I wish I could express myself well enough to get that accross" and then someone brings it up and here you are saying exactly what I think only much better than I would. Yay! (Note: this does not stop me from babbling on interminally :))

The more I read of this the more I start to agree that we shouldn't go around labelling stories as "unacceptable" since it's all too subjective. But given that it's ok to criticise characterisation, grammar, racist tropes etc, I don't see why it's wrong to say to someone "It could just be me, but your story feels like it condones/trivialises -blah-". And the author has the right to explain themselves, or just ignore the complaint or whatever, but in some cases they may go "OMG you're right".

And if someone gets the impression that a lot of writers stories seem to trivialise -blah- (or have bad grammar, or whatever) then it's their right to go "Hey, Fandom, I think you're getting this wrong". And (as is happening right now) writers can go "No, no I'm not, you're missing the point", but sometimes people will go "Hey, you're right, I hadn't thought of it that way".

Now the impression I get from all of this is that people like myself who don't read any of this darker more controversial stuff really aren't in a position to judge it, since we Just Don't Get It. And people who do write it seem on the whole to be quite thoughtful and intelligent about it and aware of the issues involved (even if this is not apparent from their writing to an outsider) What I think would help assauge my disquiet is the sense that as well as this dialogue outside the community there is also dialogue inside community. That people do call each other on stories with disturbing subtexts (even when read in the context of the community) and that, as with the SGA race thing, if someone felt that people's attitudes were trending in a Bad Way then they'd speak up about it.

I'm not saying these things don't happen, I'm sure they do, but on the whole the people who write this stuff have been (understandably) too busy going "We are not all ignorant and thoughtless! Quite the reverse!" to talk about what happens to the small minority who are.

Also I'm not saying ignorant thoughtless people who write stories which promote Badness should be kicked out of fandom! But they should be given advice to help them become less ignorant and thoughtless.

Something that just struck me which some people seem to miss is that yes teenagers are reading this stuff, and maybe it's messing with their heads: but they are not immune from Issues or the need for catharsis etc. I know the violent stories I produced and consumed in highschool played an important role for me.

*it's ok to criticise characterisation, grammar, racist tropes etc, [...]*

The vast majority of Spuffy I've read makes me uncomfortable, but I don't think it's constructive to leave comments on a Spuffy fic that say, "Spuffy makes me uncomfortable." What I mean is the pairing is usually a deliberate choice made by the author. As is including gang rape or underage sex. We usually say, Don't like, don't read.

- Sometimes it is not a deliberate choice of the author to include issues like rape; that is, the author is too ignorant to make a deliberate choice. Idiots, as i_palimpset points out, who say, there isn't pedophilia in this! because the 11 year old involved "wanted it". But in this case, the comment should not be on the fic, that something with the fic is wrong. In this case, the PERSON is wrong. Fandom should not be saying, "Write this fic responsibly!" but rather, "be responsible people." We have the right to ask each other to do the latter as a community. I do NOT think we have the right to monitor people's fiction.

- Also, sometimes, you might be fine with rape being included, just not how it is being handled (if, for instance, you like to read about rape being realistically handled, but don't like what you see as trivialization). In that case, what we should be hearing is, "I think this would be a better story if you handled the rape in this fic more seriously." Just like any comment on grammar or characterization, the author can choose to ignore that advice or take it. However, instead, what we're hearing is, "I think you would be a better person if you handled the rape in this fic more seriously." I have a problem with this, because it is not a critique of my fic, it is a critique of my person, BASED on my fiction.

*the people who write this stuff have been ... too busy going "We are not all ignorant and thoughtless..." to talk about what happens to the small minority who are.*

This is a nice point. To some extent I agree. What palimpset mentioned, about someone not thinking something is pedophilia if the child enjoys it, is highly disturbing, and we should be talking about THOSE people. Who ARE in the minority. But the problem is, whenever this issue comes up, those concerned about this ignorant minority address their comments to all of us who "write this stuff." Perhaps most, or even all, of this ignorant minority are people who write this stuff, so a convenient way to address all of them is to address people who write this stuff.

But convenience does not always equal right, and convenience can be dangerous. It was convenient for 6A/LJ to delete journals according to interests, but not all comms that have an LJ interest in pedophilia are full of pedophiles. Just as not all who write pedophilia are members of this ignorant minority. So when someone lumps us all together, it's going to make us angry.

Furthermore, because the fiction we write has nothing to do with what we know or don't know about RL, we who do write this stuff are not any more responsible for this ignorant minority than those who don't write this stuff.

ignorant thoughtless people who write stories which promote Badness

I think you're missing the point here. Stories can't promote Badness.

I am not saying that stories, that words, don't have power. But as soon as we try to curb that power in some directions, we're going to have to start curbing it in all directions.

A story about incest, in which all characters think sex with kids is hunky dory, might give a kid the idea to have sex with a parent. Lolita might convince girls to encourage pedophiles. An Angel/Buffy story in which Buffy gets off on biting might convince someone slitting their wrists would be sexy.

Yes, we should label our fic and put warnings on it and make sure it is posted in a place where children and those who would be disturbed by such fic shouldn't have to read it. But when it comes to monitoring the actual content of fiction, I have a problem.

Yes, people ignorant of rape, or who don't think it's important, SHOULD be given advice. By us all, as members of a community together. But that advice should have nothing to do with what's in their fiction or how they write it.

Also, sometimes, you might be fine with rape being included, just not how it is being handled (if, for instance, you like to read about rape being realistically handled, but don't like what you see as trivialization). In that case, what we should be hearing is, "I think this would be a better story if you handled the rape in this fic more seriously."

This is exactly what I think we should be doing. I also think that yes the comments about it have to be aimed at everyone who writes it because they are, presumably, on the front line of reading it as well. There's been a lot of "how dare you point at me" going on, but I've been seeing these comments as being aimed at the community at large, not just the writers of the fic in question.

Fandom should not be saying, "Write this fic responsibly!" but rather, "be responsible people."

I think this is really the underlying issue, that the fic is figuratively, getting in the way of it. The general consensus seems to be that we shouldn't write responsibly but be responsible people. What I deem to be writing responsibly seems to be different to everyone who does write seems to define it as.

We have the right to ask each other to do the latter as a community. I do NOT think we have the right to monitor people's fiction

Also, sometimes, you might be fine with rape being included, just not how it is being handled (if, for instance, you like to read about rape being realistically handled, but don't like what you see as trivialization). In that case, what we should be hearing is, "I think this would be a better story if you handled the rape in this fic more seriously."

This is exactly what I think we should be doing. I also think that yes the comments about it have to be aimed at everyone who writes it because they are, presumably, on the front line of reading it as well. There's been a lot of "how dare you point at me" going on, but I've been seeing these comments as being aimed at the community at large, not just the writers of the fic in question.

But if it's ok comment on how an issue is handled in a story is ok; what do you term as 'monitoring someone's fiction'?

I think this is really the underlying issue, that the fic is figuratively, getting in the way of it.

Which is why I wish the fic would get left out of it. Because encouraging each other to be responsible people is both valid and important.

I've been seeing these comments as being aimed at the community at large, not just the writers of the fic in question.

We must be seeing different things.

But if it's ok comment on how an issue is handled in a story is ok; what do you term as 'monitoring someone's fiction'?

What I meant by that is to make judgments on a work of art based on morality rather than technicality, and to furthermore apply those moral judgments to the creator of the work.

*quote snipped because I'm over the word limit :D*

Oh absolutely. I think it's wrong to judge someone based on a single story without context. I mean I must say there are certain types of writing where I think "I have trouble imagining how a reasonable person could write this", but I'm always open to the possibility of being wrong and wouldn't openly judge them without looking into it further.

But there are some stories where I get a very strong subtext I don't like, and while I agree I can't assume that there's not some context I'm missing or whatever, and shouldn't go around lambasting the author, I think I'm within my rights to go "To me this story reads as if..."

I mean, do you think it's ok to criticise a story for appearing to perpetuate racist or sexist tropes? While realising it may have a context you don't know, but still going "This story really comes across as..."

Also some people in this argument seem to be saying it's wrong to judge people at all, and that to call them out on their opinions (as expressed in person, not fic) is akin to censorship. Which, to me, no.

Examples of imo reasonable reader responses:
Writer: *story which comes accross as problematic*
Reader: Hi, maybe it's just me but your story comes accross as problematic
Sit 1:
Writer: Duh, it's a parody!
Reader: Oh, oops. I see.

Sit 2:
Writer: Then you're missing the point. You see....
Reader: I don't see it that way
Writer: Well, that's your perogative.
Reader: Fair enough.

Sit 3:
Writer: Yes, I did mean it that way, what's your problem?
Reader: Ok, you have opinions I find really offensive.
*dialogue continues in non-fictional setting, or maybe they just defriend each other and move on. Or whatever*

That said, I REALLY need to read a book or something about "The death of the author" because I realise there's a lot of subtle literary theory that's going right over my head. Stupid BSc, no good to me at all :)

I totally agree that the people saying "Lets just ban all stories about incest!" are bad and wrong, and that it's really rude to assume that anyone who writes a story you find offensive is some sort of amoral wierdo who needs to Be Made To Understand.

we who do write this stuff are not any more responsible for this ignorant minority than those who don't write this stuff.

Well, the difference to me is that
(a)You encounter them, we do not
(b)You're better able to understand their statements in the right context.

Which is not to say that they're your responsibility in the sense that what they do is your fault. But to the extent that your community is regulated at all, it makes sense for it to be self regulated, and thus your responsibility. Or am I missing your point?

The Spike/Buffy thing is related to a personal bugbear of mine, so be warned the rest of this comment is more me ranting than really being on topic :)

I understand Spike/Buffy stories which gloss over the Issues inherent the relationship since that could take away from the romantic fantasy etc. But I have read one or two stories which seemed to me to be explicitely impying that Spike was justified in attempting to rape Buffy because he Really Loved her. Not as part of a sexy rape fantasy, but as offhand backstory. Now maybe the author did that on purpose, and as someone not really involved in Buffy fandom I'm just missing the point. But I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about the way society (and fiction) says that if someone loves you then anything they do as a result of that love is understandable, since I used to buy into that crap myself and thus spent two years with your typical possessive Bad Boyfriend. (Said it was kinda personal :)) In this sort of case I don't think we can assume that "everyone" knows that it's not ok, since clearly they don't, and thus think it's quite plausible that the author has some subconscious issues they're not aware of and might benefit having pointed out to them. I must admit I'm not brave enought to point them out myself, partly due the the "Not in the fandom, may have missed the point" thing.

Wow - normally I'm the one going "Yeah what she said" so thank you, it's so nice to know that I managed to articulate . . . . well anything at all really.

And the author has the right to explain themselves, or just ignore the complaint or whatever, but in some cases they may go "OMG you're right".

Exactly!

And like you said I feel so much better that the community is able to engage in a meaningful dialogue about it.

given that it's ok to criticise characterisation, grammar, racist tropes etc, I don't see why it's wrong to say to someone "It could just be me, but your story feels like it condones/trivialises -blah-".

*nods like a bobble head* I'm never quite sure I'm on the same page as the rest of fandom when it comes to these issues. I'm pretty sure I'm missing some of the right academic/theoretical background -- because I've seen, over and over again, fans argue that it's problematic to use, for example, rape as a kink or a cheap "add [x] here for extra angst, stir, add porn" plot device, both because it can be construed as disrespectful to those who have endured the reality of rape (by trivializing it, white-washing it, etc), and because plot tropes such as "he raped her but it's okay because he loved her" or "he raped her but it's okay 'cause she really wanted it anyway" perpetuate harmful gender stereotypes.

But when people make similar arguments about chan being problematic, everyone protests that it's an entirely different kettle of fish. If it's expected that fans ought to be mindful of real life issues when writing minority characters, mindful of real life issues when writing about rape, etc, then why is chan different?

Just the fact that it's often written to satisfy a kink automatically excuse the writer from having to do research/present the situation in a way that shows they know it's problematic? I'm betting that if someone wrote BDSM between a planter and a slave set on an antebellum cotton plantation, and then insisted that they didn't have to address any of the race issues inherant in the situation because they were simply writing to satisfy their master/slave kink, fandom's reaction would be, ah, interesting.

Certainly this fic exists? I mean, there have to be antebellum fandoms....

I've seen, over and over again, fans argue that it's problematic to use, for example, rape as a kink [...]
But when people make similar arguments about chan being problematic, everyone protests that it's an entirely different kettle of fish."

In an ideal world, I would say that it's not the same fans arguing both those points. In the real world, I'd fully admit that some of the same fans do argue both those points. And sometimes it may be because they're idiotic or hypocritical or don't really know what they're talking about or can see both sides of the issue and can't decide or don't think there's a right answer.

But on the whole, I'd say that there're some fans who believe in "responsible writing". Who believe that because our words have power, we should always be wary of what we do with that power. And then there are some fans who believe in amoral writing. Who believe that the power of our words lies in writing anything we feel like, rather than only those things we feel we should or will promote the general welfare of society.

Sometimes, like I said, fans in the latter category might argue something differently, and yeah, that's inconsistency. But lots of times I see people in the latter category saying things such as they don't like stories that trivialize rape--but they would never say that such stories are wrong or that they should be written differently. And sometimes, as in the recent Buffyverse kerfluffle, those fans will say it's wrong if a person trivializes rape in real life conversation, or by saying outside the fiction that it's alright to rape a woman who has rape fantasies so her fiction isn't rape, or something like that. But they would still say that within the fiction, anything the author wants to can be true or happen.

For my own two cents: I'm for writing whatever the hell we choose. If someone wrote BDSM between a planter and a slave set on an antebellum cotton plantation without addressing racial issues I'd respect her right to write it. I...read that as BDSM with a plant at first and I find that disturbing, but I'd respect anyone's right to write that, too.

If that writer did not understand race issues or the horrors that African Americans suffered in the past, and things they still suffer today because of it, I'd think she needed help, and to be informed. But I wouldn't think it had a damn thing to do with her fiction.

Actually I've encountered a bunch of people who seem to think that any subject can, in theory, be "trivialised" (In the sense of being written as unrealistic fantasy ignoring the Issues). Some seem to think it's only ok if you've considered your reasons for writing it and are doing it as part of a community where it's established that it's all fantasy and everyone knows That's Not How Things Really Work, but other people seem to have a "fiction is just fiction and is always ok to write" attitude. (Since I'm not in either group I've probably done both POVs a huge disservice!)

I have some sympathy for the first group since while I personally cannot stand stories which romantisise or trivialise things like rape or even teacher/student, I do find myself reading a lot of quite violent fiction, not all of which is at all realistic. I'm a pacifist who wouldn't hurt a fly and I get annoyed at people who imply that anyone who likes any violent media, regardless of context, is secretly a serial killer or whatever.

But I have a harder time understanding the second group. Certainly while I can see their point that you can't really judge a piece of writing without context, I think you can judge it in context and say "This story is promoting racism, whether the author meant it to or not" or whatever.

I've been trying to educate myself by reading Wikipedia. but have thoroughly confused myself about the interactions between post-modernism and Authorial Intentionality, I think I may give up and do some gardening :)

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