lettered | Smallville/SPN Questions

Is the theme of this show always incestuous brothers?

ummm..what makes you say that? The inordinate amount of touching? The sympatico? The love with legs? What? I can't imagine...

Well, in this ep, there was the boy who killed his mom, birth doctor, and brother's gf because they kept him and his twin apart.

I mean, Sam, Dean, sure. We need it in the plot of the week, too?

Not that I mind at all.

So . . . Lex was gay with a love/hate complex ever since he was a wee little thing?

I guess so. He has some serious Daddy issues, and the episodes that dealt with his childhood focused mainly on his mother and brothers. One is dead (mother killed him and Lex took the fall) and the other one... I'm not sure what happened to him.

And there was a rather large contingent for Clark/Lex slash from the first couple of seasons when they were friends. Now, I don't think it's as ardent.

Oh, I didn't know they were friends/not friends. I mean, I thought there was that love/hate vibe from the beginning.

The one other ep I saw had some *really* weird stuff going on with his mommy, but I didn't get it 'cause I hadn't seen enough of the show. In this one, I did pick up that he'd had one brother who died . . . Have they done flashbacks before for Lex? Do they always use the same kid? Anyway . . . oh, yeah, picked up on the Daddy issues right off. I like the guy who plays Lionel. He has a cool voice and he looks like a lion. Is he evil?

Lionel is played by the always wonderful John Glover, who at this point has gone back and forth over the line so many times, even Lionel isn't sure if he's evil or not.

He's hot.

They've had flashback Lex storylines a few times - usually with a younger Lex, right before he lost his hair and just after, this was the first time with that actor.

I thought the actor looked more like he could've been a young Dean.

It was weird.

The flashbacks with Lex as a child were before he went to school (and sometimes before he lost his red curly hair), so it would have been a different kid.

Clark and Lex were very good friends in seasons 1 and 2. I think it was in Season 3/4 that it started to downhill. I didn't watch much of season 3 because it was really weak.

Lionel is awesome. At first he was pure evil, but now he's either pulling off a great act or has truly been converted to a good guy. One of my most favorite arcs of Smallville is him putting the moves on Clark's mom. Very cool.

Oh, yeah. And: I like Lois too--you said you liked her? Still don't like Lana. Lois was so . . . Lois. I hate Loises that aren't Lois.

And I think Clark/Lex people are still very much around. Charged relationship like that, with the jealousy/resentment/grudging respect, not to mention the tragic dramatic irony of its history vs. future--oh, yeah.

Frankly, that's what most interests me about this show.

Smallville Lois is awesome. She's so much coller than Superman Returns Lois (spunk?! Where the hell was her spunk!?)

Lana will forever irk me. She's always the damn victim and makes those annoying faces. No. Even if she saved a child from a burning building while wearing high heels and one arm was mutilated, I would not like her.

The Clark/Lex dynamic was one of the strongest aspects of the show in the beginning - how the friendship fell apart. Now, the focus has shifted to them embracing their destinies.

Incestuous brothers with occasional forays into sex with chicks.

So to answer your question, yes.

But did you see how pretty they are? (Not the Good&Bad Twins, the hot Winchesters I mean.)

I think Dean is pretty. Not so much Sam (though as Femme likes to point out, he does have good hands).

Heh. I do admire the visage of Jensen Ackles a whole damn lot.

yes and yes again.

I haven't seen this week's SPN yet, so I don't know if it's more incestuous than usual, but as far as SV, Lex has many issues, not limited to:

his father

his dead mother and his father's hand in that

his dead brother

an obsessive need to know the truth

friends and whether said friends can be trusted

power

Gay sex is actually the least of Lex's problems.

Except that gay sex can encompass all these things.

I am trying not to admit that I would watch this show for Lex. I don't really *like* him but I love his issues. That makes me sad.

I think SPN was more incestuous than usual this week. Has to be.

You should check out

sadiekate. She's all about the Rosenbaum. (And writes hilarious RPF/S, too)

Lex was once described by a writer whose fic I love as 'a beautiful, fucked up man' - more issues than the National Enquirer and People combined, including but not limited to his ongoing love/hate/obsession with Clark Kent (Lex: Ask me about my Chamber of Clark Kent - aka CoCK). Also trust issues, daddy issues, dead mother and baby brother issues, and the stigma of being young and rich. Also, there's Lucas Luthor, his younger half brother, who as a baby, Lionel *gave away* and then used like a tissue to rein Lex in years later. Lionel isn't called the Magnificent Bastard for nothin' but he's got a serious weak spot for Martha Kent.

Seriously, the plot holes on this show were enormous, but Lex and CLex kept me coming back for three seasons. I finally was driven away for *good* by the Lana Show, starring Lana!Sue (imo, ymmv). Damned shame, that. I shouldn't let one character ruin it for me, but dear God, it was just too much after a while.

I've watched this show three times now and each time Lex has interested me, but I'm not sure about the rest. And the relationship between Lex and Clark has interested me, but it doesn't help that I think Tom Welling is a yeti. The previous two eps I disliked Lana very much; she was a bit of alright in this ep.

I'm thinking about Netflixing it, but I can't decide. I mean, I know it's campy, but I'm not sure I could stomach that much.

But, I still like Lex's issues. They're fun.

If I may, I'd rec the second season - things were starting to really go grey between Lex and Clark and the mid season cliffhanger and the two eps that come before and after it are very Lex centric and showcase the 'thing' between CLex and also illustrates clearly the relationship Lex has with his dad.

Hey, thanks. It might give me hives to do 'em out of order though. But maybe I will!

I love your icon.

Feel free to take but be careful going through my other icons. Might give you hives:P

I only ever use this one. Oh, and sometimes panties.

What, that icon is pretty! The only icon that's ever given me hives is this one with JM saying, "welcome to my pleasure dome" AND THERE WERE SPARKLIES. And, porn wear. Seriously I had to slice off my skin after that one.

uh, no offense, if you like have that one. And it's not a joke. Um. Well yeah maybe I did mean some offense there.

Oh my God, NONE taken. I've seen the horrible things some will do to that poor man, and I WEEP for him. But they're nothing compared to the manipulated images I've accidently set eyes on.

And I have one of the panty icons, AND I've used it!

OMG yay pantyfan usage!

hahaha. Well, I'm pretty sure the pleasure dome icon is a joke, and it STILL gives me hives. Oh, Jimbo. But yeah, manips are the worst.

Pirate!Angel & bad!kitty!Spike.

::shudders::

I tried it out a few times and proclaimed as loudly as I could "SMALLVILLE SUCKS!!"

Then I fell in love with Lex and SV has become my primary fandom obsession. ::head desk::

It's worth Netflixing - but you've got to keep in mind that its campiness is what makes it worth watching. The worst of the Mutant of the Week episodes make "Beer Bad" and "Go Fish" look like the best TV ever.

The worst of the Mutant of the Week episodes make "Beer Bad" and "Go Fish" look like the best TV ever.

Are you sure you don't mean the best of the mutant of the week eps?

I live to mock.

ha, yeah, this is the impression that I get.

SV is so mockable ;-) and you're right, it would have been better worded your way.

Well, I fear going the same route. I've seen enough to proclaim loudly about its suckage.

But . . . Lex. Wah!

Campiness makes *Buffy* worth watching. It has exactly enough for me to laugh at and point fingers at without making itself stupid. But SV . . . I dunno . . .

But ha, thanks for your opinion! I think I'll Netflix it, yes.

My Tom Welling sticks his tongue out at you for calling him a yeti. Plus, omg, tongue!

I have an icon of his *hand* too. Because, eeeeee! Yes, I really am that sad, why do you ask?

This is why, when I fic SV, I take Lex and all his issues and embrace them, go all body-snatcher with him as I drive him around the block. I live his issues, obsessions, and then he gets to fuck Clark.

Of course, it helps that I find Lex attractive too so it's not just simple wish-fulfillment. I think.

I tried explaining this at Writercon, where I hung out with the Angel people way more than the Spike people. I almost always write Spike, but really, it's All About Angel.

I am so weird.

No, Smallville will never, ever be the show that any of the Joss shows are. BSG kicks Smallville's *ass* in just about everything, except the gay. But there is something compelling about the myth of it, an underlying, sinister complexity that is hard to see within the rather simple narrative. It just *sucked* me in *hard*. It goes beyond actor!lust--which um, I almost never get *this* bad, really!--into really deep metatasticness. Seriously. Would I lie?

Um, that really doesn't explain much, does it? *g*

Tongue? Hahaha.

Tom Welling IS a yeti. Which is funny because his broad shoulders and largeness and hands are very much my type. MR is very . . . not my type, but he drips charisma on screen, really drips it, so I could find it in me to find him hot. What are we talking about again? There's this big tongue in my way.

Are you saying you write Clark, but it's about Lex? Or write Lex, but it's all about Clark? Spike is in some ways much more approachable than Angel. I feel like I understand Angel, and Spike has always been a mystery to me, but Spike is more open, heart on his sleeve, go with it, live in the world, and Angel is this big internal vortex. Spike is the force you use to rock Angel's tower. By tower I did NOT mean cock, and yet it comes out sounding that way.

I think I understand what you mean by the complexity, but I almost wonder if that's something you can experience more in the fandom than the show. Part of it is the Superman mythos you can bring to it. Maybe I mean the complexity exists more in the fact of Clark and Lex as young, troubled boys before they fulfill their destinies, whereas in Jossverse, those elements are built up within the plots themselves. I'm talking out of my ass; I haven't seen enough SV to know what I'm talking about.

But I admire your enthusiasm. I almost want to watch it just to read your fic. I want to watch SPN just to read Femmenerd's fic. I'm a sad person.

Funny, but I'm not usually not into big guys. I'm a wee thing and they scare me. It's a self-preservation thing. So I have *no* clue about my TW spasticness.

And you *totally* cheated with the JM tongue. He's all blowed up and stuff.

Oh, and I meant that I write Lex POV but it's all about Clark. Lex is surprisingly accessible, his cadence and crazycakeness is easy to fall into. I'm not saying that I do a *great* job, but it's adequate. I've found SV fandom very welcoming with what I've done so far. They're enthusiastically seductive that way. *g*

And I find that's the case with Spike too as far as cadence and motivation. I can understand his rhythm whereas Angel is so much more difficult. Angel has a deep inner life. And when I do write from his POV there's a lot more poetry and dream sequences and such and is not really fit for public consumption.

There is a certain complexity that fandom brings to SV, but they can oversimplify the Clark/Lex relationship too, which personally makes me all GAH! and not in a good way. For instance, there was a *ton* of symbolism in this week's ep. How Duncan, Lex's school friend, is really a proto-Clark, and his failure in that relationship, the disastrousness of it, reflects Lex's relationship with Clark. It's not coincidence that Duncan was hit by a car, presumed dead, and then Lex hit Clark with his car years later. Clark represented a second chance for Lex. But Lex is essentially the same person in so many ways and chooses the way of power, swallows hurt down.

Lex wanting the lab notes for his friend, reducing him to an experiment, indicates how he will be willing to splay Superman out on a lab table in the future. It's all about the journey, and is *way* more than the gay.

I haven't read Femme's fic yet either because I haven't seen SPN. I do have the 1st season on DVD but haven't taken it out of it's wrapper yet. *wins sad person contest, WINS!*

I am the opposite of wee. Very tall. You and me, we could rpg TW and MR, DB and JM. Or TW and JM, which was funnier. Tiny Jim.

Oh, of course you do a great job. That is what you do!

I feel like I understand Angel's motivations a lot better than I do Spike's. I don't know if that is me being presumptuous, or something, as far as Angel goes. But anyway, I do find Spike's cadence, as you call it, easier to *write*.

How Duncan, Lex's school friend, is really a proto-Clark, and his failure in that relationship, the disastrousness of it, reflects Lex's relationship with Clark.

Oh, yeah, that's what I meant by Lex having had this love/hate thing going on with his counterparts. Well, I also meant the gay, but yeah. I didn't know Lex hit Clark with a car; that's interesting.

indicates how he will be willing to splay Superman out on a lab table in the future

This is what I meant. I worded it badly. What I meant is that you can add a level of complexity to SV because there's already the existing Superman myth, which exists in so many different incarnations. SV can work that in (almost like writing fanfic, in a way), and fans can work that in, and it adds a layer to the show.

I did read Femme's Fanmix cross-over Faith/Dean fic--I recommend it even if you've never watched SPN. And this makes me take back the sadness trophy. YES.

What I meant is that you can add a level of complexity to SV because there's already the existing Superman myth, which exists in so many different incarnations. SV can work that in (almost like writing fanfic, in a way), and fans can work that in, and it adds a layer to the show.

Ah, I see. Yes, I guess SV is does build on that mythic layer, authorized fanfic. But so much media relies on allusions, their audience's familiarity with other works, that I think this clamboring to be omg!so original and not reference *anything* flattens and hurts art more than layering ever could.

But that's kinda tangential.

I know that I should read Femme's crossover. We talked about it in Nashville while she was a bit nauseated in my car. *g* She has a wonderful interpretation of Faith, and I should read it just for that.

*battles for trophy*

Well, yeah. I was not trying to belittle SV--think that brings a lot to the verse.

Though if I wanted to the advocate of the devil (I do not have an apostrophe that is why I am talking so) I could point out BSG only references Greek gods and the signs of the Zodiac and it does alright. However I do not want to be an advocate of the devil. I do want my damn apostrophe, though.

I forgot how you were at Winchestercon and have not even seen SPN. I totally concede.

I do not have an apostrophe that is why I am talking so

Ah, you mean the punctuation apostrophe as opposed to the rhetorical one. I got confused for a minute. *g* Do you mean that key is no longer functional?

I'd argue that BSG references *way* more than Greek mythology. Considering the aftermath of Vichy France and what happened to supposed collaborators--have you seen pictures of what they did to the women? OMG!--the last episode held a lot more chill and terror for me because of that knowledge, how I could relate the episode to our own history, what atrocities human beings are capable of in the name of "justice".

I forgot how you were at Winchestercon and have not even seen SPN. I totally concede.

Hee! I am a puffy bag of fandom!

periodically my browser has been knocking out the use of my apostrophe, my slash, my back and forth arrows, and my cut and paste. No idea what the deal with it is.

Well, I agree with what you say about BSG's references. I just meant that SV is *directly* based on something like a canon.

That's an awesome icon.

That's an awesome icon.

I have to credit

_eb for the awesomeness.

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